One thing with ethanol is that the stuff contains oxygen atoms along with
the hydrogen and carbon atoms, where as straight gasoline is hydrogen and
carbon only. The oxygen tends to lean the mixture entering the engine. No
matter what carb setting you apply after that, the air/fuel ratio never gets
back to what it was. A lean mixture will burn hotter and more readily
creates detonation and preignition (4 cylinders inboards tend to have
dieseling problems with the stuff). It can also cause stalling problems.
With cars the oxygenated fuels tends to work ok as the computers and sensors
keep a good control. With marine engines its a problem.


"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

The oxygen tends to lean the mixture entering the engine.

why do you think that? ethanol has a different fuel/air mixture ratio than
gas/air, so needs different jets.

No
matter what carb setting you apply after that, the air/fuel ratio never gets
back to what it was.

race engines did it for years.

Part of problem is that the gas formula isn't consistent across the country.
Non attainment areas have a different formula than say, rural Nebraska. The
Atlantic coast might have yet another regional formula. A production item
such as a carbureted outboard or inboard marine engine is a "one size fits
all applications" product. It works great in some areas and not so great in
others. Since those carbs are designed for an average gas formula (or for
whatever standard the engineers has chosen) it is impossible to set them
optimum when the gas supply is different from that original standard.

My comments are aimed at productions engines rather than something more
custom such as a race engine. I have seen rejetting offered as a
manufacture's solution in the past but don't recall seeing that recently. A
person could experiment with the jets try to get an improvement. With the
stalling problem, such as what the original poster had, rejetting might not
cure that problem. Those low speed circuits are partially controlled by the
size of drilled passageways, not something readily adjustable.


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
The oxygen tends to lean the mixture entering the engine.

why do you think that? ethanol has a different fuel/air mixture ratio
than
gas/air, so needs different jets.

No
matter what carb setting you apply after that, the air/fuel ratio never
gets
back to what it was.

race engines did it for years.

I find it highly unlikely that there are no Oxygen (O) atoms in gas....

Matt

"Ken" wrote in message ...
One thing with ethanol is that the stuff contains oxygen atoms along with
the hydrogen and carbon atoms, where as straight gasoline is hydrogen and
carbon only. The oxygen tends to lean the mixture entering the engine. No
matter what carb setting you apply after that, the air/fuel ratio never gets
back to what it was. A lean mixture will burn hotter and more readily
creates detonation and preignition (4 cylinders inboards tend to have
dieseling problems with the stuff). It can also cause stalling problems.
With cars the oxygenated fuels tends to work ok as the computers and sensors
keep a good control. With marine engines its a problem.


"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

Matt,

Believe it.

Of that stuff you call gasoline (those things that come of the the
distillation between 100 and 200 degF) there is no chemical formulae.

It is all organic hydrocarbon and the best they can due is provide a
hydrogen/cardon ratio. And that is Gasoline...

What gets added after that is anybody's bet. It isn't Tetraethyllead
Pb(C2H5)4 anymore, but it can be any portion of a chemical alphabet
soup (like MTBE, TAME and ETBE) with out even getting to the oxygenates.

Most what was added in teh pst improved the octane rating. now what is
added is largely to improve the combustion efficiency.

Matt Colie (Engine Lab Rat -ret)


Matt Lang wrote:
I find it highly unlikely that there are no Oxygen (O) atoms in gas....

Matt

"Ken" wrote in message ...

One thing with ethanol is that the stuff contains oxygen atoms along with
the hydrogen and carbon atoms, where as straight gasoline is hydrogen and
carbon only. The oxygen tends to lean the mixture entering the engine. No
matter what carb setting you apply after that, the air/fuel ratio never gets
back to what it was. A lean mixture will burn hotter and more readily
creates detonation and preignition (4 cylinders inboards tend to have
dieseling problems with the stuff). It can also cause stalling problems.
With cars the oxygenated fuels tends to work ok as the computers and sensors
keep a good control. With marine engines its a problem.


"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...

Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

Hi Matt,

Sorry, but I agree with Matt. Lotsa oxygen, but an organic chemist could
help us about the locations that they are stuck on. Suspect that is what
people are talking about with oxygenated fuels.

surfnturf

"Matt Colie" wrote in message
...
Matt,

Believe it.

Of that stuff you call gasoline (those things that come of the the
distillation between 100 and 200 degF) there is no chemical formulae.

It is all organic hydrocarbon and the best they can due is provide a
hydrogen/cardon ratio. And that is Gasoline...

What gets added after that is anybody's bet. It isn't Tetraethyllead
Pb(C2H5)4 anymore, but it can be any portion of a chemical alphabet
soup (like MTBE, TAME and ETBE) with out even getting to the oxygenates.

Most what was added in teh pst improved the octane rating. now what is
added is largely to improve the combustion efficiency.

Matt Colie (Engine Lab Rat -ret)


Matt Lang wrote:
I find it highly unlikely that there are no Oxygen (O) atoms in gas....

Matt

"Ken" wrote in message
...

One thing with ethanol is that the stuff contains oxygen atoms along
with
the hydrogen and carbon atoms, where as straight gasoline is hydrogen
and
carbon only. The oxygen tends to lean the mixture entering the engine.
No
matter what carb setting you apply after that, the air/fuel ratio never
gets
back to what it was. A lean mixture will burn hotter and more readily
creates detonation and preignition (4 cylinders inboards tend to have
dieseling problems with the stuff). It can also cause stalling problems.
With cars the oxygenated fuels tends to work ok as the computers and
sensors
keep a good control. With marine engines its a problem.


"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...

Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in
each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is
the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

Uhhh, kinda embarrassed. Too long since high school, should have done my
research before spouting off... I'll back the other Matt now. Cs&Hs, no Os
until you get into the additives etc.

Been fooling around with wood chemistry too much.

surfnturf

snip the embarassment
"Matt Colie" wrote in message
...
Matt,

Believe it.

Of that stuff you call gasoline (those things that come of the the
distillation between 100 and 200 degF) there is no chemical formulae.

It is all organic hydrocarbon and the best they can due is provide a
hydrogen/cardon ratio. And that is Gasoline...

What gets added after that is anybody's bet. It isn't Tetraethyllead
Pb(C2H5)4 anymore, but it can be any portion of a chemical alphabet
soup (like MTBE, TAME and ETBE) with out even getting to the oxygenates.

Most what was added in teh pst improved the octane rating. now what is
added is largely to improve the combustion efficiency.

Matt Colie (Engine Lab Rat -ret)

dood, that is utter bull****. that lab you retired from was a back woods drug
lab.

do a google (if you are capable) on the chemical makeup of octane and see how
many oxygen atoms you find.

From: Matt Colie
Date: 9/23/2004 6:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

Matt,

Believe it.

Of that stuff you call gasoline (those things that come of the the
distillation between 100 and 200 degF) there is no chemical formulae.

It is all organic hydrocarbon and the best they can due is provide a
hydrogen/cardon ratio. And that is Gasoline...

What gets added after that is anybody's bet. It isn't Tetraethyllead
Pb(C2H5)4 anymore, but it can be any portion of a chemical alphabet
soup (like MTBE, TAME and ETBE) with out even getting to the oxygenates.

Most what was added in teh pst improved the octane rating. now what is
added is largely to improve the combustion efficiency.

Matt Colie (Engine Lab Rat -ret)


Matt Lang wrote:
I find it highly unlikely that there are no Oxygen (O) atoms in gas....

Matt

"Ken" wrote in message
...

One thing with ethanol is that the stuff contains oxygen atoms along with
the hydrogen and carbon atoms, where as straight gasoline is hydrogen and
carbon only. The oxygen tends to lean the mixture entering the engine. No
matter what carb setting you apply after that, the air/fuel ratio never
gets
back to what it was. A lean mixture will burn hotter and more readily
creates detonation and preignition (4 cylinders inboards tend to have
dieseling problems with the stuff). It can also cause stalling problems.
With cars the oxygenated fuels tends to work ok as the computers and
sensors
keep a good control. With marine engines its a problem.


"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...

Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

(JAXAshby) wrote in message ...

do a google (if you are capable) on the chemical makeup of octane and see how
many oxygen atoms you find.

Or you could look up the octane rating of methanol (about 100 on the
(R+M)/2 scale) and its chemical formula (CH3OH) and note that a liquid
fuel with a high octane rating can have as many oxygens as carbons.

The octane number on the pump does not tell you how much "real octane"
is in the gasoline. Extra credit exercise: look up octane numbers for
"normal octane", "normal heptane" and "iso-octane" (a.k.a.
2,2,4-trimethyl pentane).

%mod%

dood, rather poor googling on your part. "octane", a physical fact, and
"octane rating", a concept, are not hardly the same thing.

(modervador)
Date: 9/27/2004 1:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

(JAXAshby) wrote in message
...

do a google (if you are capable) on the chemical makeup of octane and see
how
many oxygen atoms you find.

Or you could look up the octane rating of methanol (about 100 on the
(R+M)/2 scale) and its chemical formula (CH3OH) and note that a liquid
fuel with a high octane rating can have as many oxygens as carbons.

The octane number on the pump does not tell you how much "real octane"
is in the gasoline. Extra credit exercise: look up octane numbers for
"normal octane", "normal heptane" and "iso-octane" (a.k.a.
2,2,4-trimethyl pentane).

%mod%