On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 04:26:52 GMT, Rich Hampel
wrote:

Nope 10% ethanol mixed with gasoline will result in the water component
forming into an emulsified form which doesnt separate readily.

Actually the additional water content helps increase the "octane"
number, and also helps to clean the piston ring grooves, blows the
carbon out of the combustion chamber, etc.
Some engines (back in 'muscle car days') used water injection to boost
power output while helping to cool the combustion chambers.

I had forgotten about that.

Must be getting old.

Take care.

Tom

"The beatings will stop when morale improves."
E. Teach, 1717

One thing with ethanol is that the stuff contains oxygen atoms along with
the hydrogen and carbon atoms, where as straight gasoline is hydrogen and
carbon only. The oxygen tends to lean the mixture entering the engine. No
matter what carb setting you apply after that, the air/fuel ratio never gets
back to what it was. A lean mixture will burn hotter and more readily
creates detonation and preignition (4 cylinders inboards tend to have
dieseling problems with the stuff). It can also cause stalling problems.
With cars the oxygenated fuels tends to work ok as the computers and sensors
keep a good control. With marine engines its a problem.


"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

The oxygen tends to lean the mixture entering the engine.

why do you think that? ethanol has a different fuel/air mixture ratio than
gas/air, so needs different jets.

No
matter what carb setting you apply after that, the air/fuel ratio never gets
back to what it was.

race engines did it for years.

"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation....
.... blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol.

Problems we had in motorcycles involved water. Seems that while gas and
ethonol mix fine and ethanol and water mix that ethanol saturated with water
doesn't mix with gas nor burn well.

Larry,

As so often happens in these groups, there is a good deal of less than
complete data. After several decades of working in the test labs of
Detroit let me fill in some of the problems.

Old issue:
Alcohol is a solvent for the "Permatex" that used to seal two-stroke
crankcases. This would allow charge mixture to leak out, air to leak in
during the cycle and the engine would go lean and self distruct. There
was also an issue raised with the alcohol interfering with the lubricity
of the ashless oil causing a breakdown under load. I never saw this
verfied and was told by a lubricant supplier that it was simply false.
This would make sense becuase the engine damage that I surveyed was all
piston damage most likely the result of lean mixture.

Fix - Use an alcohol resistant silcone base RTV sealant during assembly.

Known issue:
All elastomers have some absortion rate of almost all liquids. It is
additive. So, if Hexane make a 4% swell, and butane makes a 2% swell
then expect winter pump gasoline to cause 6% swell. Alcohol swell is
typically 3-4%, so it added to the fuel you should now expect a 10%
swell. That will FU (make less than optimal) a rubber tipped needle and
seat of an old carburetor float valve system in fine style.

Fix - Go find a Grose Jet to replace the rubber tipped needle and seat.
These were made for out labe by a shop in RI (Providence - I think). If
the neat guy that runs the shop is still there, he has data for most
things and can make what you have data for. - Not cheap - Very Good

Little known issue:
But, touched on by one poster. The F/A will be differnet for an -OH
(the family of alcohols) blend fuel than it is with pump grade non-OH
blended fuel. This can and often did cause drivability and performance
issues. Modern cars correct for this on the fly (not goingthere now).

Fix - Older engines can not do this automaticly, but can be corrected
for the 12-20$us that a box of carburetor jets will cost (you can stiil
buy at speed shops). Upsize the main jet(s) in the carburetor until
the engine runs as it should.

Unfortunately, this was much easier to do in a engine dynamometer test
room that I might be in a boat, but I have done it and it takes some
patience and persistance.

Good Luck
Matt Colie


Larry Weiss wrote:
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:06:31 -0400, Matt Colie
wrote:

~~ good stuff snipped ~~

Unfortunately, this was much easier to do in a engine dynamometer test
room that I might be in a boat, but I have done it and it takes some
patience and persistance.

Dude!!!

Good info. Thanks for the post.

Take care.

Tom

"The beatings will stop when morale improves."
E. Teach, 1717

Part of problem is that the gas formula isn't consistent across the country.
Non attainment areas have a different formula than say, rural Nebraska. The
Atlantic coast might have yet another regional formula. A production item
such as a carbureted outboard or inboard marine engine is a "one size fits
all applications" product. It works great in some areas and not so great in
others. Since those carbs are designed for an average gas formula (or for
whatever standard the engineers has chosen) it is impossible to set them
optimum when the gas supply is different from that original standard.

My comments are aimed at productions engines rather than something more
custom such as a race engine. I have seen rejetting offered as a
manufacture's solution in the past but don't recall seeing that recently. A
person could experiment with the jets try to get an improvement. With the
stalling problem, such as what the original poster had, rejetting might not
cure that problem. Those low speed circuits are partially controlled by the
size of drilled passageways, not something readily adjustable.


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
The oxygen tends to lean the mixture entering the engine.

why do you think that? ethanol has a different fuel/air mixture ratio
than
gas/air, so needs different jets.

No
matter what carb setting you apply after that, the air/fuel ratio never
gets
back to what it was.

race engines did it for years.

I find it highly unlikely that there are no Oxygen (O) atoms in gas....

Matt

"Ken" wrote in message ...
One thing with ethanol is that the stuff contains oxygen atoms along with
the hydrogen and carbon atoms, where as straight gasoline is hydrogen and
carbon only. The oxygen tends to lean the mixture entering the engine. No
matter what carb setting you apply after that, the air/fuel ratio never gets
back to what it was. A lean mixture will burn hotter and more readily
creates detonation and preignition (4 cylinders inboards tend to have
dieseling problems with the stuff). It can also cause stalling problems.
With cars the oxygenated fuels tends to work ok as the computers and sensors
keep a good control. With marine engines its a problem.


"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

Matt,

Believe it.

Of that stuff you call gasoline (those things that come of the the
distillation between 100 and 200 degF) there is no chemical formulae.

It is all organic hydrocarbon and the best they can due is provide a
hydrogen/cardon ratio. And that is Gasoline...

What gets added after that is anybody's bet. It isn't Tetraethyllead
Pb(C2H5)4 anymore, but it can be any portion of a chemical alphabet
soup (like MTBE, TAME and ETBE) with out even getting to the oxygenates.

Most what was added in teh pst improved the octane rating. now what is
added is largely to improve the combustion efficiency.

Matt Colie (Engine Lab Rat -ret)


Matt Lang wrote:
I find it highly unlikely that there are no Oxygen (O) atoms in gas....

Matt

"Ken" wrote in message ...

One thing with ethanol is that the stuff contains oxygen atoms along with
the hydrogen and carbon atoms, where as straight gasoline is hydrogen and
carbon only. The oxygen tends to lean the mixture entering the engine. No
matter what carb setting you apply after that, the air/fuel ratio never gets
back to what it was. A lean mixture will burn hotter and more readily
creates detonation and preignition (4 cylinders inboards tend to have
dieseling problems with the stuff). It can also cause stalling problems.
With cars the oxygenated fuels tends to work ok as the computers and sensors
keep a good control. With marine engines its a problem.


"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...

Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

Hi Matt,

Sorry, but I agree with Matt. Lotsa oxygen, but an organic chemist could
help us about the locations that they are stuck on. Suspect that is what
people are talking about with oxygenated fuels.

surfnturf

"Matt Colie" wrote in message
...
Matt,

Believe it.

Of that stuff you call gasoline (those things that come of the the
distillation between 100 and 200 degF) there is no chemical formulae.

It is all organic hydrocarbon and the best they can due is provide a
hydrogen/cardon ratio. And that is Gasoline...

What gets added after that is anybody's bet. It isn't Tetraethyllead
Pb(C2H5)4 anymore, but it can be any portion of a chemical alphabet
soup (like MTBE, TAME and ETBE) with out even getting to the oxygenates.

Most what was added in teh pst improved the octane rating. now what is
added is largely to improve the combustion efficiency.

Matt Colie (Engine Lab Rat -ret)


Matt Lang wrote:
I find it highly unlikely that there are no Oxygen (O) atoms in gas....

Matt

"Ken" wrote in message
...

One thing with ethanol is that the stuff contains oxygen atoms along
with
the hydrogen and carbon atoms, where as straight gasoline is hydrogen
and
carbon only. The oxygen tends to lean the mixture entering the engine.
No
matter what carb setting you apply after that, the air/fuel ratio never
gets
back to what it was. A lean mixture will burn hotter and more readily
creates detonation and preignition (4 cylinders inboards tend to have
dieseling problems with the stuff). It can also cause stalling problems.
With cars the oxygenated fuels tends to work ok as the computers and
sensors
keep a good control. With marine engines its a problem.


"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...

Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in
each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is
the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."