Problems with ethanol in fuel
 

Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

Larry Weiss wrote in message ...
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the
marine industry addressing this?


I have experienced some cars also not runnig with ethanol blend ... I
dont know the technical reason, but may speculate its different
properties dont lead to proper air mix.

Aside from that you should never use ethanol fuel in 2 strokes.

Matt

Ethanol, or alcohol, mixes with any water. It's used up here by some in the
winter (auto engines) to pick up any condensation and so on to prevent gas
line freeze. So, if the alcohol in the mix becomes saturated (with water), a
drop in temperature will cause that water to be dumped, leaving the water in
the fuel system ... especially not good in injected engines. If that's
what's happening, maybe a water separator mounted close to the engine might
be an idea? The dumping of water by saturated ethanol fuel caused by a drop
in temperature is a fact ... but a 10% mix ... ???

"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

Larry Weiss wrote:

Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."


Here's a good compilation of current manufacturer's recommendations.
Mercury seems especially against ethanol fuel.
http://www.ethanolrfa.org/2003marine.pdf

So the problem would appear to be water.


"John Wentworth" wrote in message
...
Larry Weiss wrote:

Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."


Here's a good compilation of current manufacturer's recommendations.
Mercury seems especially against ethanol fuel.
http://www.ethanolrfa.org/2003marine.pdf

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 17:36:59 GMT, Larry Weiss
wrote:

Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the
marine industry addressing this?

I wasn't aware it was ten percent, but recently some of the mechanics
I know have been running into filter problems. When they drain off
the fuel, it smells like alcohol - which would lead me to believe that
the combination of ethanol and the alcohol in Dry Gas or it's
equivilent is causing most of the problems.

In CT, I haven't had a problem with my Ranger, but the I've have to
change my water seperation filters twice this year. Got a feeling
that it's the ethanol in the gas I get at Brewers.

I can only speak Johnson/Evinrude, but they are really anti-ethanol
for two stroke systems. I'm not sure why.

Take care.

Tom

"The beatings will stop when morale improves."
E. Teach, 1717

It attracts water and when it reaches saturation the water dumps out. Not
so good in a boat as i's hard to avoid water. If you can remove the sending
unit from your fuel tank and see if it has water in the bottom. Get it out
if it does. Drain all your fuel filters regularly. Keep the water out and
you'll have less trouble. But it's hard to do.

"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

Over here in Western Pennsylvania I use Sunoco 93 octane and haven't had any
problems. I used the same fuel since 99 in my Mercury OB. 10%, don't think
so as the max is no more than 5% from Sunoco.


"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

Nope 10% ethanol mixed with gasoline will result in the water component
forming into an emulsified form which doesnt separate readily.

Actually the additional water content helps increase the "octane"
number, and also helps to clean the piston ring grooves, blows the
carbon out of the combustion chamber, etc.
Some engines (back in 'muscle car days') used water injection to boost
power output while helping to cool the combustion chambers.


article gers.com,
Bowgus wrote:

Ethanol, or alcohol, mixes with any water. It's used up here by some in the
winter (auto engines) to pick up any condensation and so on to prevent gas
line freeze. So, if the alcohol in the mix becomes saturated (with water), a
drop in temperature will cause that water to be dumped, leaving the water in
the fuel system ... especially not good in injected engines. If that's
what's happening, maybe a water separator mounted close to the engine might
be an idea? The dumping of water by saturated ethanol fuel caused by a drop
in temperature is a fact ... but a 10% mix ... ???

"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

"Woodchuck" wrote in message ...
Over here in Western Pennsylvania I use Sunoco 93 octane and haven't had any
problems. I used the same fuel since 99 in my Mercury OB. 10%, don't think
so as the max is no more than 5% from Sunoco.


"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

Ok here some fact about alcohol addition to fuel:
For a long time people have sometimes added a bit of alcohol to the
gasoline in areas where water might get into the gas tank. The water
does not mix with the gasoline and in cold climates can freeze in the
gas line and in warmer climates prevent the engine from starting.
Water is not a good fuel. Addition of the alcohol will cause formation
of a ternarty mixture with the water and the gasoline and avoid the
water from separating out.

More recnetly in some states like california the EPA in order to
reduce engine pollution the government has mandated the use of
Oxygenated fuels. This is gasoline that has up to 10% alcohol added to
make the gasoline burn cleaner. The 10% number comes from an agreement
of automobile engine manufacturers who have agreed that up to 10 % the
engine is not harmed and no special adjustment is required.
With more than 10% alcohol the power of the engine is reduced and
parts may suffer. In Brazil some cars use pure alcohol, these are
special engines and people don't like them because they have no power
( I used to live there and had a car with an alcohol engine)

For these reasons I don't think that poor running of an engine with a
gasoline/10% alcohol is the problem. Water tends to cause starting
problems but once the engine is running at high speed the water tends
to disperse ( not dissolve ) and go through the engine with the
gasoline.

There may be several reasons for the stalling problem. Most likely the
engines are starved of fuel when revved. Since it occurs on both
engines it may be a simple as some blockage in the fuel line that
allows some fuel to get through, enough for idle, but not enough for a
high rev. S I would look for the problem in the fuel filters, fuel
line, fuel pump etc

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 04:26:52 GMT, Rich Hampel
wrote:

Nope 10% ethanol mixed with gasoline will result in the water component
forming into an emulsified form which doesnt separate readily.

Actually the additional water content helps increase the "octane"
number, and also helps to clean the piston ring grooves, blows the
carbon out of the combustion chamber, etc.
Some engines (back in 'muscle car days') used water injection to boost
power output while helping to cool the combustion chambers.

I had forgotten about that.

Must be getting old.

Take care.

Tom

"The beatings will stop when morale improves."
E. Teach, 1717

One thing with ethanol is that the stuff contains oxygen atoms along with
the hydrogen and carbon atoms, where as straight gasoline is hydrogen and
carbon only. The oxygen tends to lean the mixture entering the engine. No
matter what carb setting you apply after that, the air/fuel ratio never gets
back to what it was. A lean mixture will burn hotter and more readily
creates detonation and preignition (4 cylinders inboards tend to have
dieseling problems with the stuff). It can also cause stalling problems.
With cars the oxygenated fuels tends to work ok as the computers and sensors
keep a good control. With marine engines its a problem.


"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

The oxygen tends to lean the mixture entering the engine.

why do you think that? ethanol has a different fuel/air mixture ratio than
gas/air, so needs different jets.

No
matter what carb setting you apply after that, the air/fuel ratio never gets
back to what it was.

race engines did it for years.

"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation....
.... blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol.

Problems we had in motorcycles involved water. Seems that while gas and
ethonol mix fine and ethanol and water mix that ethanol saturated with water
doesn't mix with gas nor burn well.

Larry,

As so often happens in these groups, there is a good deal of less than
complete data. After several decades of working in the test labs of
Detroit let me fill in some of the problems.

Old issue:
Alcohol is a solvent for the "Permatex" that used to seal two-stroke
crankcases. This would allow charge mixture to leak out, air to leak in
during the cycle and the engine would go lean and self distruct. There
was also an issue raised with the alcohol interfering with the lubricity
of the ashless oil causing a breakdown under load. I never saw this
verfied and was told by a lubricant supplier that it was simply false.
This would make sense becuase the engine damage that I surveyed was all
piston damage most likely the result of lean mixture.

Fix - Use an alcohol resistant silcone base RTV sealant during assembly.

Known issue:
All elastomers have some absortion rate of almost all liquids. It is
additive. So, if Hexane make a 4% swell, and butane makes a 2% swell
then expect winter pump gasoline to cause 6% swell. Alcohol swell is
typically 3-4%, so it added to the fuel you should now expect a 10%
swell. That will FU (make less than optimal) a rubber tipped needle and
seat of an old carburetor float valve system in fine style.

Fix - Go find a Grose Jet to replace the rubber tipped needle and seat.
These were made for out labe by a shop in RI (Providence - I think). If
the neat guy that runs the shop is still there, he has data for most
things and can make what you have data for. - Not cheap - Very Good

Little known issue:
But, touched on by one poster. The F/A will be differnet for an -OH
(the family of alcohols) blend fuel than it is with pump grade non-OH
blended fuel. This can and often did cause drivability and performance
issues. Modern cars correct for this on the fly (not goingthere now).

Fix - Older engines can not do this automaticly, but can be corrected
for the 12-20$us that a box of carburetor jets will cost (you can stiil
buy at speed shops). Upsize the main jet(s) in the carburetor until
the engine runs as it should.

Unfortunately, this was much easier to do in a engine dynamometer test
room that I might be in a boat, but I have done it and it takes some
patience and persistance.

Good Luck
Matt Colie


Larry Weiss wrote:
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:06:31 -0400, Matt Colie
wrote:

~~ good stuff snipped ~~

Unfortunately, this was much easier to do in a engine dynamometer test
room that I might be in a boat, but I have done it and it takes some
patience and persistance.

Dude!!!

Good info. Thanks for the post.

Take care.

Tom

"The beatings will stop when morale improves."
E. Teach, 1717

Part of problem is that the gas formula isn't consistent across the country.
Non attainment areas have a different formula than say, rural Nebraska. The
Atlantic coast might have yet another regional formula. A production item
such as a carbureted outboard or inboard marine engine is a "one size fits
all applications" product. It works great in some areas and not so great in
others. Since those carbs are designed for an average gas formula (or for
whatever standard the engineers has chosen) it is impossible to set them
optimum when the gas supply is different from that original standard.

My comments are aimed at productions engines rather than something more
custom such as a race engine. I have seen rejetting offered as a
manufacture's solution in the past but don't recall seeing that recently. A
person could experiment with the jets try to get an improvement. With the
stalling problem, such as what the original poster had, rejetting might not
cure that problem. Those low speed circuits are partially controlled by the
size of drilled passageways, not something readily adjustable.


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
The oxygen tends to lean the mixture entering the engine.

why do you think that? ethanol has a different fuel/air mixture ratio
than
gas/air, so needs different jets.

No
matter what carb setting you apply after that, the air/fuel ratio never
gets
back to what it was.

race engines did it for years.

I find it highly unlikely that there are no Oxygen (O) atoms in gas....

Matt

"Ken" wrote in message ...
One thing with ethanol is that the stuff contains oxygen atoms along with
the hydrogen and carbon atoms, where as straight gasoline is hydrogen and
carbon only. The oxygen tends to lean the mixture entering the engine. No
matter what carb setting you apply after that, the air/fuel ratio never gets
back to what it was. A lean mixture will burn hotter and more readily
creates detonation and preignition (4 cylinders inboards tend to have
dieseling problems with the stuff). It can also cause stalling problems.
With cars the oxygenated fuels tends to work ok as the computers and sensors
keep a good control. With marine engines its a problem.


"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

Matt,

Believe it.

Of that stuff you call gasoline (those things that come of the the
distillation between 100 and 200 degF) there is no chemical formulae.

It is all organic hydrocarbon and the best they can due is provide a
hydrogen/cardon ratio. And that is Gasoline...

What gets added after that is anybody's bet. It isn't Tetraethyllead
Pb(C2H5)4 anymore, but it can be any portion of a chemical alphabet
soup (like MTBE, TAME and ETBE) with out even getting to the oxygenates.

Most what was added in teh pst improved the octane rating. now what is
added is largely to improve the combustion efficiency.

Matt Colie (Engine Lab Rat -ret)


Matt Lang wrote:
I find it highly unlikely that there are no Oxygen (O) atoms in gas....

Matt

"Ken" wrote in message ...

One thing with ethanol is that the stuff contains oxygen atoms along with
the hydrogen and carbon atoms, where as straight gasoline is hydrogen and
carbon only. The oxygen tends to lean the mixture entering the engine. No
matter what carb setting you apply after that, the air/fuel ratio never gets
back to what it was. A lean mixture will burn hotter and more readily
creates detonation and preignition (4 cylinders inboards tend to have
dieseling problems with the stuff). It can also cause stalling problems.
With cars the oxygenated fuels tends to work ok as the computers and sensors
keep a good control. With marine engines its a problem.


"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...

Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

Hi Matt,

Sorry, but I agree with Matt. Lotsa oxygen, but an organic chemist could
help us about the locations that they are stuck on. Suspect that is what
people are talking about with oxygenated fuels.

surfnturf

"Matt Colie" wrote in message
...
Matt,

Believe it.

Of that stuff you call gasoline (those things that come of the the
distillation between 100 and 200 degF) there is no chemical formulae.

It is all organic hydrocarbon and the best they can due is provide a
hydrogen/cardon ratio. And that is Gasoline...

What gets added after that is anybody's bet. It isn't Tetraethyllead
Pb(C2H5)4 anymore, but it can be any portion of a chemical alphabet
soup (like MTBE, TAME and ETBE) with out even getting to the oxygenates.

Most what was added in teh pst improved the octane rating. now what is
added is largely to improve the combustion efficiency.

Matt Colie (Engine Lab Rat -ret)


Matt Lang wrote:
I find it highly unlikely that there are no Oxygen (O) atoms in gas....

Matt

"Ken" wrote in message
...

One thing with ethanol is that the stuff contains oxygen atoms along
with
the hydrogen and carbon atoms, where as straight gasoline is hydrogen
and
carbon only. The oxygen tends to lean the mixture entering the engine.
No
matter what carb setting you apply after that, the air/fuel ratio never
gets
back to what it was. A lean mixture will burn hotter and more readily
creates detonation and preignition (4 cylinders inboards tend to have
dieseling problems with the stuff). It can also cause stalling problems.
With cars the oxygenated fuels tends to work ok as the computers and
sensors
keep a good control. With marine engines its a problem.


"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...

Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in
each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is
the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

kennie be a b/sing agin.

I find it highly unlikely that there are no Oxygen (O) atoms in gas....

Matt

"Ken" wrote in message
...
One thing with ethanol is that the stuff contains oxygen atoms along with
the hydrogen and carbon atoms, where as straight gasoline is hydrogen and
carbon only. The oxygen tends to lean the mixture entering the engine. No
matter what carb setting you apply after that, the air/fuel ratio never
gets
back to what it was. A lean mixture will burn hotter and more readily
creates detonation and preignition (4 cylinders inboards tend to have
dieseling problems with the stuff). It can also cause stalling problems.
With cars the oxygenated fuels tends to work ok as the computers and
sensors
keep a good control. With marine engines its a problem.


"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

dood, that is utter bull****. that lab you retired from was a back woods drug
lab.

do a google (if you are capable) on the chemical makeup of octane and see how
many oxygen atoms you find.

From: Matt Colie
Date: 9/23/2004 6:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

Matt,

Believe it.

Of that stuff you call gasoline (those things that come of the the
distillation between 100 and 200 degF) there is no chemical formulae.

It is all organic hydrocarbon and the best they can due is provide a
hydrogen/cardon ratio. And that is Gasoline...

What gets added after that is anybody's bet. It isn't Tetraethyllead
Pb(C2H5)4 anymore, but it can be any portion of a chemical alphabet
soup (like MTBE, TAME and ETBE) with out even getting to the oxygenates.

Most what was added in teh pst improved the octane rating. now what is
added is largely to improve the combustion efficiency.

Matt Colie (Engine Lab Rat -ret)


Matt Lang wrote:
I find it highly unlikely that there are no Oxygen (O) atoms in gas....

Matt

"Ken" wrote in message
...

One thing with ethanol is that the stuff contains oxygen atoms along with
the hydrogen and carbon atoms, where as straight gasoline is hydrogen and
carbon only. The oxygen tends to lean the mixture entering the engine. No
matter what carb setting you apply after that, the air/fuel ratio never
gets
back to what it was. A lean mixture will burn hotter and more readily
creates detonation and preignition (4 cylinders inboards tend to have
dieseling problems with the stuff). It can also cause stalling problems.
With cars the oxygenated fuels tends to work ok as the computers and
sensors
keep a good control. With marine engines its a problem.


"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...

Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

On 23 Sep 2004 12:12:48 -0700, (Matt Lang) wrote:

I find it highly unlikely that there are no Oxygen (O) atoms in gas....

There are, but tiny amounts. Gasoline is mostly hydrocarbon molecules,
which like the name implies, is only hydrogen and carbon atoms. There
are many of different types of hydrocarbon molecules in typical
gasoline. However, there are also trace amounts of other compounds in
there, some of which contain oxygen atoms as well as sulphur, nitrogen,
some metals ...

Steve

schlackoff, you are even a worse chemist than you are a sailor. I suggest you
ask some high school kid to explain what happens to octane when you remove the
oxygen.

go stand in the corner.

(Steven Shelikoff)
Date: 9/23/2004 11:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

On 23 Sep 2004 12:12:48 -0700, (Matt Lang) wrote:

I find it highly unlikely that there are no Oxygen (O) atoms in gas....

There are, but tiny amounts. Gasoline is mostly hydrocarbon molecules,
which like the name implies, is only hydrogen and carbon atoms. There
are many of different types of hydrocarbon molecules in typical
gasoline. However, there are also trace amounts of other compounds in
there, some of which contain oxygen atoms as well as sulphur, nitrogen,
some metals ...

Steve

JAXAshby wrote:
schlackoff, you are even a worse chemist than you are a sailor. I suggest you
ask some high school kid to explain what happens to octane when you remove the
oxygen.

go stand in the corner.


You should cut back on the amount of ethanol you drink, Jaxass.

--
We today have a president of the United States who looks like he is the
son of Howdy Doody or Alfred E. Newman, who isn't smarter than either of
them, who is arrogant about his ignorance, who is reckless and
incompetent, and whose backers are turning the United States into a pariah.

What, me worry?

With the stuff you get from the gas pump, ya, there is oxygen in the
formula. It is being put there by design for pollution purposes (EPA
mandates) and for economic reasons (sometimes its cheaper to blend straight
gas with something). At a chemical level, gasoline does not contain oxygen.
The key word is formula.

If only the powers that be would quit changing the formula. Carbs are
limited range animals that can't fully handle all that difference. Engines
demand a specific ratio of hydrocarbons to oxygen to produce optimum burn
(or a richer mixture for optimum power). With a constantly changing formula,
it becomes harder or impossible to adjust a carb to produce that optimum.

For more info on gas see
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/gasoline1.htm
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasc.../chem99658.htm
http://www.smokemup.com/tech/fuels.php



"Matt Lang" wrote in message
om...
I find it highly unlikely that there are no Oxygen (O) atoms in gas....

Matt

"Ken" wrote in message
...
One thing with ethanol is that the stuff contains oxygen atoms along
with
the hydrogen and carbon atoms, where as straight gasoline is hydrogen
and
carbon only. The oxygen tends to lean the mixture entering the engine.
No
matter what carb setting you apply after that, the air/fuel ratio never
gets
back to what it was. A lean mixture will burn hotter and more readily
creates detonation and preignition (4 cylinders inboards tend to have
dieseling problems with the stuff). It can also cause stalling problems.
With cars the oxygenated fuels tends to work ok as the computers and
sensors
keep a good control. With marine engines its a problem.


"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved.
My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in
each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is
the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

Uhhh, kinda embarrassed. Too long since high school, should have done my
research before spouting off... I'll back the other Matt now. Cs&Hs, no Os
until you get into the additives etc.

Been fooling around with wood chemistry too much.

surfnturf

snip the embarassment
"Matt Colie" wrote in message
...
Matt,

Believe it.

Of that stuff you call gasoline (those things that come of the the
distillation between 100 and 200 degF) there is no chemical formulae.

It is all organic hydrocarbon and the best they can due is provide a
hydrogen/cardon ratio. And that is Gasoline...

What gets added after that is anybody's bet. It isn't Tetraethyllead
Pb(C2H5)4 anymore, but it can be any portion of a chemical alphabet
soup (like MTBE, TAME and ETBE) with out even getting to the oxygenates.

Most what was added in teh pst improved the octane rating. now what is
added is largely to improve the combustion efficiency.

Matt Colie (Engine Lab Rat -ret)

On 24 Sep 2004 11:32:13 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

schlackoff, you are even a worse chemist than you are a sailor. I suggest you
ask some high school kid to explain what happens to octane when you remove the
oxygen.

Specious. You know what that means? The question is whether there's
oxygen atoms in gasoline. The answer is yes but a small amount.

Jox, you're the perfect example of what happens to a person when you
remove the oxygen.

Steve

dood, rather poor googling on your part. "octane", a physical fact, and
"octane rating", a concept, are not hardly the same thing.

(modervador)
Date: 9/27/2004 1:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

(JAXAshby) wrote in message
...

do a google (if you are capable) on the chemical makeup of octane and see
how
many oxygen atoms you find.

Or you could look up the octane rating of methanol (about 100 on the
(R+M)/2 scale) and its chemical formula (CH3OH) and note that a liquid
fuel with a high octane rating can have as many oxygens as carbons.

The octane number on the pump does not tell you how much "real octane"
is in the gasoline. Extra credit exercise: look up octane numbers for
"normal octane", "normal heptane" and "iso-octane" (a.k.a.
2,2,4-trimethyl pentane).

%mod%

mod, go away.

Subject: Problems with ethanol in fuel
From: (modervador)
Date: 9/28/2004 5:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

(JAXAshby) wrote in message
...
"octane", a physical fact, and
"octane rating", a concept, are not hardly the same thing.

That is just what I implied, and that is exactly why looking up the
chemical makeup of octane will not tell you how much oxygen is in
gasoline.

So for the benefit of others less educated, do you know the octane
rating of normal octane?

%mod%


(modervador)
Date: 9/27/2004 1:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

(JAXAshby) wrote in message
...

do a google (if you are capable) on the chemical makeup of octane and
see
how
many oxygen atoms you find.

Or you could look up the octane rating of methanol (about 100 on the
(R+M)/2 scale) and its chemical formula (CH3OH) and note that a liquid
fuel with a high octane rating can have as many oxygens as carbons.

The octane number on the pump does not tell you how much "real octane"
is in the gasoline. Extra credit exercise: look up octane numbers for
"normal octane", "normal heptane" and "iso-octane" (a.k.a.
2,2,4-trimethyl pentane).

%mod%

jaxashby tells the world that his contribution to this ng is the same
as the octane rating of normal octane, that is, less than zero.

(JAXAshby) wrote in message ...
mod, go away.

Subject: Problems with ethanol in fuel
From: (modervador)
Date: 9/28/2004 5:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

(JAXAshby) wrote in message
...
"octane", a physical fact, and
"octane rating", a concept, are not hardly the same thing.

That is just what I implied, and that is exactly why looking up the
chemical makeup of octane will not tell you how much oxygen is in
gasoline.

So for the benefit of others less educated, do you know the octane
rating of normal octane?

%mod%


(modervador)
Date: 9/27/2004 1:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

(JAXAshby) wrote in message
...

do a google (if you are capable) on the chemical makeup of octane and
see
how
many oxygen atoms you find.

Or you could look up the octane rating of methanol (about 100 on the
(R+M)/2 scale) and its chemical formula (CH3OH) and note that a liquid
fuel with a high octane rating can have as many oxygens as carbons.

The octane number on the pump does not tell you how much "real octane"
is in the gasoline. Extra credit exercise: look up octane numbers for
"normal octane", "normal heptane" and "iso-octane" (a.k.a.
2,2,4-trimethyl pentane).

%mod%

the octane rating of normal octane, ... is, less than zero.


wtf???

yo-yo, octane has -- be definition -- an octane rating of 100. check it out.

(modervador)
Date: 9/30/2004 12:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

(JAXAshby) wrote in message
...
the octane rating of normal octane, ... is, less than zero.


wtf???

That is correct. Less than zero. Less than the rating assigned to
normal heptane.

I gave you a big hint when I said to look up octane numbers for
"normal octane", "normal heptane" and "iso-octane" (a.k.a.
2,2,4-trimethyl pentane).

Here's another hint (in form of questions): which is better as diesel
fuel, octane or cetane? Which has higher octane number, heptane or
propane? Can we make any generalizations about long vs. short chain
alkanes and their branched isomers?

%mod%

here you, yo-yo. http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/o1/octanenu.asp

an explaination even you can understand as to what the "octane rating" of
octane is.

the octane rating of normal octane, ... is, less than zero.


wtf???

That is correct. Less than zero. Less than the rating assigned to
normal heptane.

I gave you a big hint when I said to look up octane numbers for
"normal octane", "normal heptane" and "iso-octane" (a.k.a.
2,2,4-trimethyl pentane).

Here's another hint (in form of questions): which is better as diesel
fuel, octane or cetane? Which has higher octane number, heptane or
propane? Can we make any generalizations about long vs. short chain
alkanes and their branched isomers?

%mod%

odor, I ain't gonna check out anything you say. you have already shown
yourself to be a fraud with your ficitional statement that alcohol in small
amounts added to gasoline increases the octane rating by substantial amounts,
and the EPA required gas companies add alcohol to gas because carb's engines
run better at engine startup and thus the EPA saves the ass of automobile
companies once again.

other readers, please note odor's fraud address, the same address as used by a
couple dozen frauds here.

(modervador)
Date: 10/1/2004 8:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: