Downsides to a long trailer tongue?
 

Designing our trailer it looks like for our 22' boat we could have the
tongue as litle as 2' from the bow -- or 24' total rig. But we'ld like to
put the wheels (tandem) as far back as possible so less boat and
less weight is hanging out past the wheels. This should help
stability. SO, the longer the tongue, the furthur back we can
put the wheels. ~ Storage of the trailer is no problem and though
a longer rig makes tight manuvering harder I don't think we'll
have any major prolems with that.

So, any other problems with having a longer trailer tongue?

Downsides to a long trailer tongue?
 

Gary, I'm not understanding the part about "the longer the tongue, the
furthur back we can put the wheels." To maintain the ~10% of the weight on
the hitch rule, increasing the tongue length works the opposite way.

In my case, my trailer has a short tongue; it's just a couple feet forward
of the bow. I find it to be a pain in the arse because I can't back down
the ramp far enough for the boat to float off the trailer. I have to give
the boat a pretty good push to slide down the bunks. If the trailer had a
longer tongue, the boat could float right off.



"Gary Warner" wrote in message
...

Designing our trailer it looks like for our 22' boat we could have the
tongue as litle as 2' from the bow -- or 24' total rig. But we'ld like to
put the wheels (tandem) as far back as possible so less boat and
less weight is hanging out past the wheels. This should help
stability. SO, the longer the tongue, the furthur back we can
put the wheels. ~ Storage of the trailer is no problem and though
a longer rig makes tight manuvering harder I don't think we'll
have any major prolems with that.

So, any other problems with having a longer trailer tongue?

Downsides to a long trailer tongue?
 

Snafu wrote:
Gary, I'm not understanding the part about "the longer the tongue, the
furthur back we can put the wheels." To maintain the ~10% of the weight on
the hitch rule, increasing the tongue length works the opposite way.

Absolutely the longer the tongue (drawbar?) the further "forward" the
wheels will by to keep the balance right.

K



In my case, my trailer has a short tongue; it's just a couple feet forward
of the bow. I find it to be a pain in the arse because I can't back down
the ramp far enough for the boat to float off the trailer. I have to give
the boat a pretty good push to slide down the bunks. If the trailer had a
longer tongue, the boat could float right off.



"Gary Warner" wrote in message
...

Designing our trailer it looks like for our 22' boat we could have the
tongue as litle as 2' from the bow -- or 24' total rig. But we'ld like to
put the wheels (tandem) as far back as possible so less boat and
less weight is hanging out past the wheels. This should help
stability. SO, the longer the tongue, the furthur back we can
put the wheels. ~ Storage of the trailer is no problem and though
a longer rig makes tight manuvering harder I don't think we'll
have any major prolems with that.

So, any other problems with having a longer trailer tongue?

Downsides to a long trailer tongue?
 

Snafu wrote:
Gary, I'm not understanding the part about "the longer the tongue, the
furthur back we can put the wheels." To maintain the ~10% of the weight
on
the hitch rule, increasing the tongue length works the opposite way.

Absolutely the longer the tongue (drawbar?) the further "forward" the
wheels will by to keep the balance right.


Say you have a rig, single axel, 24' long from back to tip of tongue. The
center of gravity of boat + trailer is @ 8' from the back. So if the axel
was
at 8' the thing would essentially be balanced over the axel, no weight on
the tongue.

Then you move the wheels back until you get the desired 10% / 400#
on the tongue. Say you have to move it 1' to do that. So now the
axel is at 7' from the back.

Now, you make the tongue longer. That tongue has more leverage to
the piviting point (the axel). It would be easier to lift that tongue. It
would have *less* weight when put on the ball. To get back to
the 400# you would have to move the wheels *back* more.

By tongue I do NOT mean the draw bar on the truck. I mean
that the length of the "pole" hanging out the front of the trailer
is extended and made longer.


If I'm thinking of this wrong I'd love to hear it...but I think I'm right
and more likely we just aren't picturing the same thing / using the
same language.


Thanks,
Gary


PS: Ours will actually be dual-axel and these numbers are just a guess
at what our situation will be...I don't know the actual weights or
centers-of-gravity yet. Our boat is 3800 to 4000 lbs and I think
the trailer will be 1200 or so.

Downsides to a long trailer tongue?
 

I added a 3 foot, removable, tongue extension onto my little (14 ft Carolina
Skiff) trailer so that I could get the boat into the water more easily on
shallow ramps.. It did NOT add any problems in towing of which I am aware.
It certainly helped in backing up and launching. RichG

"Gary Warner" wrote in message
...

Designing our trailer it looks like for our 22' boat we could have the
tongue as litle as 2' from the bow -- or 24' total rig. But we'ld like to
put the wheels (tandem) as far back as possible so less boat and
less weight is hanging out past the wheels. This should help
stability. SO, the longer the tongue, the furthur back we can
put the wheels. ~ Storage of the trailer is no problem and though
a longer rig makes tight manuvering harder I don't think we'll
have any major prolems with that.

So, any other problems with having a longer trailer tongue?

Downsides to a long trailer tongue?
 

If you increase the tongue length, you will increase the tongue weight
by exactly the amount of weight of the added tongue material. Leverage
has nothing to do with the tongue weight. If you move the axles
backward you will increase the tongue weight, forward will decrease the
tongue weight. Tom.

Downsides to a long trailer tongue?
 

You get too many doe-eyed female trailers
following you around.

Downsides to a long trailer tongue?
 

If you increase the tongue length, you will increase the tongue weight
by exactly the amount of weight of the added tongue material. Leverage
has nothing to do with the tongue weight. If you move the axles
backward you will increase the tongue weight, forward will decrease the
tongue weight. Tom.

I disagree. A trailer is just a class 2 lever. If the distance between
the wheels & the ball were doubled, the tongue weight would be cut in half.

Downsides to a long trailer tongue?
 

Gould 0738 wrote:

You get too many doe-eyed female trailers
following you around.




Watch it with the sexual innuendo, Chuckster...we have Republicans
about, and you know how nervous sex makes them...

--
Email sent to is never read.

Downsides to a long trailer tongue?
 

On 07 Dec 2003 13:03:34 GMT, (Wwj2110) wrote:

If you increase the tongue length, you will increase the tongue weight
by exactly the amount of weight of the added tongue material. Leverage
has nothing to do with the tongue weight. If you move the axles
backward you will increase the tongue weight, forward will decrease the
tongue weight. Tom.

I disagree. A trailer is just a class 2 lever. If the distance between
the wheels & the ball were doubled, the tongue weight would be cut in half.

That's assuming it's a perfect theoretical lever where the weight of the
lever itself is 0, which it's not. The actual answer is "it depends".
For example, if the tongue weight is currently 10lbs and you double the
length of the tongue but the extra length weighs 20lbs, you'll be
increasing the tongue weight. But if the current tongue weight is
1000lbs and you double the length same as above, you'll be decreasing
the tongue weight.

With a real world trailer, doubling the tongue length would cause the
new tongue weight to be somewhere between (old weight+weight of new
tongue length) and (old weight/2) but never actually being equal to
either of those unless you use some sort of extra load leveling device.

Steve

Downsides to a long trailer tongue?
 

On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 02:57:24 -0500, "Gary Warner"
wrote:
Now, you make the tongue longer. That tongue has more leverage to
the piviting point (the axel). It would be easier to lift that tongue. It
would have *less* weight when put on the ball. To get back to
the 400# you would have to move the wheels *back* more.

======================

Your analysis is correct. You could either move the axles back a
little more, or bring the boat forward. I have a similar setup to
yours: 24 ft boat, approx 5,000 lbs, tandem axle trailer about 28 ft
long. Moving the boat forward 1 foot increases tongue weight by about
300 lbs. Once you get the axles about right, it's easier to adjust
the boat position.

Downsides to a long trailer tongue?
 

"Wayne.B" wrote:

Your analysis is correct. You could either move the axles back a
little more, or bring the boat forward. I have a similar setup to
yours: 24 ft boat, approx 5,000 lbs, tandem axle trailer about 28 ft
long. Moving the boat forward 1 foot increases tongue weight by about
300 lbs. Once you get the axles about right, it's easier to adjust
the boat position.

Thanks.

Note: In our case we don't want to move the boat
forward. Reason is that it's a wood boat and there is
a 50 gallon gas tank right at the back going
across the boat. We want support right under the transom.
So we want the transom directly over the end of the trailer
where the risers will be.

Downsides to a long trailer tongue?
 

"Steven Shelikoff" wrote

That's assuming it's a perfect theoretical lever where the weight of the
lever itself is 0, which it's not. The actual answer is "it depends".
For example, if the tongue weight is currently 10lbs and you double the
length of the tongue but the extra length weighs 20lbs, you'll be
increasing the tongue weight. But if the current tongue weight is
1000lbs and you double the length same as above, you'll be decreasing
the tongue weight.

With a real world trailer, doubling the tongue length would cause the
new tongue weight to be somewhere between (old weight+weight of new
tongue length) and (old weight/2) but never actually being equal to
either of those unless you use some sort of extra load leveling device.

Steve

Right. And in most cases the added tongue material (in our case about
7 lbs/foot) is minimal compared to the tongue weight 400#.

Downsides to a long trailer tongue?
 

"Wwj2110" wrote in message
...
If you increase the tongue length, you will increase the tongue weight
by exactly the amount of weight of the added tongue material. Leverage
has nothing to do with the tongue weight. If you move the axles
backward you will increase the tongue weight, forward will decrease the
tongue weight. Tom.

I disagree. A trailer is just a class 2 lever. If the distance
between
the wheels & the ball were doubled, the tongue weight would be cut in
half.

I'm sorry, I'm just not following this train of thought. Let's forget a
trailer for a moment. Take an object that is long, like a 10' piece of pipe
for instance, and lay it on the ground to simulate the trailer. Support the
pipe at say 60% of its length with another object, say like a 2x2, to
simulate the axle. The longer end of the pipe is the tongue end; weigh the
very end of the long end. Now move your 2x2 so that the tongue end is 90%
of the pipe's length. Now weigh the long end. Won't the weight at the end
of the long end be greater that it was when the 2x2 was at only 60% of the
length?

Downsides to a long trailer tongue?
 

It really depends upon the center of mass of the boat in relation to the
axle position. If the center of mass is directly above or behind the
axles you will end up with neutral or negative tongue weight(dangerous
situation). Ideally, the center of mass of the boat should be just ahead
of the axles, just enough to give you the tongue weight you're shooting
for. All else being equal/unchanged increasing the tongue length will
increase tongue weight by the amount of extra material in the tongue.
However the longer tongue does have advantages in more predictable
maneuvering/backing, and in longer reach at a shallow angle launch ramp.
Tom.

Downsides to a long trailer tongue?
 

Get the boat where you want it. Then make the tongue the length you want
it. Finally move the axle to get 10% of the weight on the tongue.

"Gary Warner" wrote in message
...


"Wayne.B" wrote:

Your analysis is correct. You could either move the axles back a
little more, or bring the boat forward. I have a similar setup to
yours: 24 ft boat, approx 5,000 lbs, tandem axle trailer about 28 ft
long. Moving the boat forward 1 foot increases tongue weight by about
300 lbs. Once you get the axles about right, it's easier to adjust
the boat position.

Thanks.

Note: In our case we don't want to move the boat
forward. Reason is that it's a wood boat and there is
a 50 gallon gas tank right at the back going
across the boat. We want support right under the transom.
So we want the transom directly over the end of the trailer
where the risers will be.

Downsides to a long trailer tongue?
 

On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 19:43:58 GMT, "Snafu"
wrote:
Now move your 2x2 so that the tongue end is 90%
of the pipe's length. Now weigh the long end. Won't the weight at the end
of the long end be greater that it was when the 2x2 was at only 60% of the
length?

======================================

When you move the 2x2 in your example, that is comparable to moving
the axles towards the back of the trailer. Thats not the same thing
as increasing your tongue length and leaving everything else the same.

Downsides to a long trailer tongue?
 

Gary Warner wrote:
Snafu wrote:

Gary, I'm not understanding the part about "the longer the tongue, the
furthur back we can put the wheels." To maintain the ~10% of the weight

on

the hitch rule, increasing the tongue length works the opposite way.

Absolutely the longer the tongue (drawbar?) the further "forward" the
wheels will by to keep the balance right.



Say you have a rig, single axel, 24' long from back to tip of tongue. The
center of gravity of boat + trailer is @ 8' from the back. So if the axel
was
at 8' the thing would essentially be balanced over the axel, no weight on
the tongue.

Then you move the wheels back until you get the desired 10% / 400#
on the tongue. Say you have to move it 1' to do that. So now the
axel is at 7' from the back.

Now, you make the tongue longer. That tongue has more leverage to
the piviting point (the axel). It would be easier to lift that tongue. It
would have *less* weight when put on the ball. To get back to
the 400# you would have to move the wheels *back* more.

By tongue I do NOT mean the draw bar on the truck. I mean
that the length of the "pole" hanging out the front of the trailer
is extended and made longer.


If I'm thinking of this wrong I'd love to hear it...but I think I'm right
and more likely we just aren't picturing the same thing / using the
same language.


Thanks,
Gary


PS: Ours will actually be dual-axel and these numbers are just a guess
at what our situation will be...I don't know the actual weights or
centers-of-gravity yet. Our boat is 3800 to 4000 lbs and I think
the trailer will be 1200 or so.



Now you say it that way yes I now totally accept you're correct all
along & my apologies. I screwed up.

K

Downsides to a long trailer tongue?
 

On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 16:31:25 -0500 (EST), wrote:

It really depends upon the center of mass of the boat in relation to the
axle position. If the center of mass is directly above or behind the
axles you will end up with neutral or negative tongue weight(dangerous
situation). Ideally, the center of mass of the boat should be just ahead
of the axles, just enough to give you the tongue weight you're shooting
for. All else being equal/unchanged increasing the tongue length will
increase tongue weight by the amount of extra material in the tongue.

Sorry, but that's just not true. Even if you discount the fact that the
tongue is acting like a lever, not *all* of the extra weight of
lenghtening the tongue is supported by the hitch. Some of it is also
supported by the trailer wheels. The only way this would not be true is
if all of the added weight of the new length of tongue was centered
right over the hitch, which isn't likely. Now, if you take into account
the fact that the extra tongue is lengthening the lever, the only way
the tongue weight will be greater by doubling the tongue length is if
the extra material in the tongue weighs more than over half the original
tongue weight.

Steve

Downsides to a long trailer tongue?
 

"K Smith" wrote:

Now you say it that way yes I now totally accept you're correct all
along & my apologies. I screwed up.

K


Thanks for the input, no appologies ever necessary if the intent is all
good.

Downsides to a long trailer tongue?
 

wrote in message
...

Ideally, the center of mass of the boat should be just ahead
of the axles, just enough to give you the tongue weight you're shooting
for. All else being equal/unchanged increasing the tongue length will
increase tongue weight by the amount of extra material in the tongue.

That's true, the tongue weight will increase by the weight of the
added material. (Actually, as Steven pointed out, some of that
added weight will also be supported by the whels.) But most
of it is nearer to the ball, and most will be supported there.

BUT, the weight of the added material is very small
and I believe can essentially be forgotten about. In our
example, an extra 3 feet of tonge would be maybe 20 lbs
of material. When we're looking for a tongue weight of
400#s, thats nominal.

What is ALSO true is that that longer tongue (all else
staying the same) moves the end of the tongue farther
away from the pivot point (axel). A longer arm (tongue)
gives more leverage. It would be easier to lift that
tongue off the ground or up off the ball. There would
be "less tonge weight".

Downsides to a long trailer tongue?
 

Now I wonder how we ever made it to the moon, when a group of educated
intelligent men are debating the results of one of the most basic
engineering axioms. Also amazing is that so many people rush to proclaim a
known fact.......on a national stage............when they are exactly wrong.

I wonder how this thread would play out in Japan, or Germany?

Downsides to a long trailer tongue?
 

Most people using and even building trailers are not engineers and the "rule
of thumb" is usually good enough for them. I've built 100s of trailers and
never needed to resort to a finite stress analysis or calculation of polar
moments to design a good trailer. However, knowledge of how these affect
the performance of the trailer is important.
BTW, I've seen trailers with very small tongue weight that tow just fine and
others with the "recommended" tongue weight but and unbalanced load (i.e.,
high polar moment) that sway all over the road.
The suggestion to: "Get the boat where you want it. Then make the tongue
the length you want
it. Finally move the axle to get 10% of the weight on the tongue.", is a
pretty good one... but 10% may be too little or too much depending on the
design and towing vehicle.
I've also build trailers with movable axle/spring frames to allow the
trailer to be blanced to carry different boats.


"Floyd in Tampa" wrote in message
om...
Now I wonder how we ever made it to the moon, when a group of educated
intelligent men are debating the results of one of the most basic
engineering axioms. Also amazing is that so many people rush to proclaim
a
known fact.......on a national stage............when they are exactly
wrong.

I wonder how this thread would play out in Japan, or Germany?

Downsides to a long trailer tongue?
 

K Smith wrote in message ...
Snafu wrote:
Gary, I'm not understanding the part about "the longer the tongue, the
furthur back we can put the wheels." To maintain the ~10% of the weight on
the hitch rule, increasing the tongue length works the opposite way.

Absolutely the longer the tongue (drawbar?) the further "forward" the
wheels will by to keep the balance right.

K

Once again, you've proven you stick your nose where it doesn't belong.
You certainly don't understand simple physics. If you make the tongue
longer, you will need to move the wheels BACK to keep the balance the
same. Say you have the tongue 10' from the wheels, and the tongue
weight is 100 pounds, to say, at that 10', you need to resist 100
pounds to lift the tongue. Now, we extend the tongue, to 15'. Now you
have a longer lever, thereby LESS tongue weight. To compensate, you
need to move the wheels BACK.

Downsides to a long trailer tongue?
 

"Gary Warner" wrote in message
...

So, any other problems with having a longer trailer tongue?

I have had this argument before, and don't wish to get back into the
mechanics of stability arguments again. BUT......


First word of caution: The 10% tongue weight is a "rule of thumb". Having
10% tongue weight won't necessarialy result in stable rig. Not having 10%
won't necessarialy make it unstable. Having too much will certainly load
down the tow vehicle, which could create problems. Not having enough will
certainly make a receiver type hitch rattle a lot more, and could make the
tongue pop off the ball when you hit bumps in the road.

What makes a trailer stable is the stiffness of the connection between the
axels and the load (springs, center of mass, trailer rigidity, etc.) and the
stiffness of the trailer with load to the tow vehicle (trailer rigidity,
distribution of mass).

For the purpose of discussion, take two trailers, each 20 feet long, axels
in the middle:

Trailer A has all its load located essentially over the axel Tongue weight
could be neutral. Other than the risk of the hitch popping off the ball,
this trailer could tow very nicely.

For trailer B the load is separated into two sections. A little more than
half of the load is centered 5 feet forward of the axels, the remainder of
the load is 5 feet back of the axels. This trailer has the "desired" 10%
tongue weight. Unfortunately, it is likely to sway terribly as you go down
the road.

The difference between these two trailers is the moment arm of the mass. It
isn't a "statics" problem, it is a "dynamics" problem.

To address your exact question: you could have possible problem with a
longer tongue if you don't compensate for the extra "spring". A short
trailer would be "stiff". If you use the same construction and stretch it,
the trailer will become more flexible. This can be very bad. You can avoid
this by making the tongue section more robust. When you figure the load on
the trailer you should consider more than just how gravity effects it. You
need to also consider the side loads during cornering, or when hit by the
wind blast of a passing truck.

You can have a long tongue, there is nothing wrong with that. But it is a
different trailer design than just taking a short trailer and extending it.

Rod McInnis

Downsides to a long trailer tongue?
 

On 10 Dec 2003 09:00:31 -0800, (basskisser) wrote:

K Smith wrote in message ...
Snafu wrote:
Gary, I'm not understanding the part about "the longer the tongue, the
furthur back we can put the wheels." To maintain the ~10% of the weight on
the hitch rule, increasing the tongue length works the opposite way.

Absolutely the longer the tongue (drawbar?) the further "forward" the
wheels will by to keep the balance right.

Once again, you've proven you stick your nose where it doesn't belong.
You certainly don't understand simple physics. If you make the tongue
longer, you will need to move the wheels BACK to keep the balance the
same. Say you have the tongue 10' from the wheels, and the tongue
weight is 100 pounds, to say, at that 10', you need to resist 100
pounds to lift the tongue. Now, we extend the tongue, to 15'. Now you
have a longer lever, thereby LESS tongue weight. To compensate, you
need to move the wheels BACK.

It really pains me to see the lack of understanding of basic physics by
a lot of people that this thread has exposed. For example, take the
argument above. Both of you may be right, both of you may be wrong, you
can't tell from the information given. In the specific example above of
a tongue weight of 100lbs with a tongue length of 10' from axle to
hitch, if you extend the tongue another 5' you may have to move the axle
forward, backward, or not at all to keep that 100lb hitch weight.
That's because in addition to changing the lever length, the weight on
the hitch also depends on what the weight of the additional 5' of tongue
did to the balance point. Since that hasn't been specified, the answer
is unknown.

Steve

Downsides to a long trailer tongue?
 

On 10 Dec 2003 09:00:31 -0800, (basskisser) wrote:

K Smith wrote in message ...
Snafu wrote:
Gary, I'm not understanding the part about "the longer the tongue, the
furthur back we can put the wheels." To maintain the ~10% of the weight on
the hitch rule, increasing the tongue length works the opposite way.

Absolutely the longer the tongue (drawbar?) the further "forward" the
wheels will by to keep the balance right.

K

Once again, you've proven you stick your nose where it doesn't belong.
You certainly don't understand simple physics. If you make the tongue
longer, you will need to move the wheels BACK to keep the balance the
same. Say you have the tongue 10' from the wheels, and the tongue
weight is 100 pounds, to say, at that 10', you need to resist 100
pounds to lift the tongue. Now, we extend the tongue, to 15'. Now you
have a longer lever, thereby LESS tongue weight. To compensate, you
need to move the wheels BACK.

Tell ya what I'll do, I'm not going to give you the answer, but I'll
define a problem and let basskisser and Karen come up with solutions and
see if they come up with the same one, and then hack out their
differences.

Let's go with the situation above. Assume you have a trailer where the
distance from hitch to axle is 10' and the tongue weight is 100lbs.
Also, assume that the trailer is level because if it isn't, it will
affect the answer. Also assume that the tongue extension has a constant
weight per unit length.

Now increase the length of the tongue to 15' from axle to hitch. Just
from the difference in leverage, what is the new, lower weight on the
hitch?

Since we assumed that the extension has a linear weight/length, the
center of mass of the extension is 2.5' from the hitch and 12.5' from
the axle. So what percentage of the weight of the extension is
supported by the hitch?

Knowing the percentage of the weight of the extension that's supported
by the hitch, how much does the extension have to weigh to exactly
counteract the decrease in weight due to leverage and keep the weight on
the hitch at 100lbs?

If the extension weighs any more than the answer you come up with, then
you have to move the wheels forward to keep the weight 100lbs. Any
less, then you have to move the wheels back.

Bonus question: assume that the original level trailer with the 10' from
axle to hitch weighs 1000lbs and the hitch weight is 100lbs, or 10% of
the trailer weight. You extend the tongue by 5' using an extension that
weighs 10 lbs/ft. How far and in what direction do you have to move the
axle to keep the hitch weight 10% of the new trailer weight?

Have fun!

Steve

Downsides to a long trailer tongue?
 

Everybody else seems to have gone off on the relative tongue weight.

Other factors:

A longer tongue will back up more stable, but be less maneuverable when backing.

A longer tongue will help keep your truck out of the salt water.

With a long tongue, I'd consider adding trailer running lights under the bow
somewhere. It can be a long way between the back of your truck and
the first running lights on the trailer. Several years ago, I damn near
center-punched a Corvette on a trailer with no lights between the back
of the truck and the back of the trailer. He came out of a blind side street
on a rainy night, and it sure looked like just the tow vehicle. I got all kinds
of sideways avoiding the trailer, no harm, no foul, but some running lights
on the trailer would have kept my adrenaline level down. My Shorland'r
trailer has a long tongue from the factory, and I added running lights under
the bow (there was already a set at the front of the trailer fenders).

Finally, several folks have said 10% on the tongue. I've seen lots of recommendations
of 5-10%, mine is 5% and OK.


--
Chuck Tribolet

http://www.almaden.ibm.com/cs/people/triblet

Silicon Valley: STILL the best day job in the world.


"Gary Warner" wrote in message ...

Designing our trailer it looks like for our 22' boat we could have the
tongue as litle as 2' from the bow -- or 24' total rig. But we'ld like to
put the wheels (tandem) as far back as possible so less boat and
less weight is hanging out past the wheels. This should help
stability. SO, the longer the tongue, the furthur back we can
put the wheels. ~ Storage of the trailer is no problem and though
a longer rig makes tight manuvering harder I don't think we'll
have any major prolems with that.

So, any other problems with having a longer trailer tongue?

Downsides to a long trailer tongue?
 

It is a great suggestion regarding adding lights to the extended tongue. I
never thought of the sideways "blind spot" due to an extended trailer
tongue. I added 3 feet onto my little trailer and do NOT have any lights
forward of the aft end of the boat. You've given me a project for the
weekend. .......thanks....

p.s. regarding an extended tongue making backing up "less
maneuverable"...yes, but, the longer the trailer/tongue, the BETTER the
trailer backs up. Think of an 18 wheeler backing up in Wal-Mart's parking
lot and think of you backing a short boat on a short trailer down a ramp. It
is true that the 18 wheeler needs MORE ROOM to maneuver ( and that is
probably exactly what you said) but I'll back down an 18 wheeler anytime
versus a 14 foot boat trailer. regards. RichG


"Chuck Tribolet" wrote in message
...
Everybody else seems to have gone off on the relative tongue weight.

Other factors:

A longer tongue will back up more stable, but be less maneuverable when
backing.

A longer tongue will help keep your truck out of the salt water.

With a long tongue, I'd consider adding trailer running lights under the
bow
somewhere. It can be a long way between the back of your truck and
the first running lights on the trailer. Several years ago, I damn near
center-punched a Corvette on a trailer with no lights between the back
of the truck and the back of the trailer. He came out of a blind side
street
on a rainy night, and it sure looked like just the tow vehicle. I got
all kinds
of sideways avoiding the trailer, no harm, no foul, but some running
lights
on the trailer would have kept my adrenaline level down. My Shorland'r
trailer has a long tongue from the factory, and I added running lights
under
the bow (there was already a set at the front of the trailer fenders).

Finally, several folks have said 10% on the tongue. I've seen lots of
recommendations
of 5-10%, mine is 5% and OK.


--
Chuck Tribolet

http://www.almaden.ibm.com/cs/people/triblet

Silicon Valley: STILL the best day job in the world.


"Gary Warner" wrote in message
...

Designing our trailer it looks like for our 22' boat we could have the
tongue as litle as 2' from the bow -- or 24' total rig. But we'ld like
to
put the wheels (tandem) as far back as possible so less boat and
less weight is hanging out past the wheels. This should help
stability. SO, the longer the tongue, the furthur back we can
put the wheels. ~ Storage of the trailer is no problem and though
a longer rig makes tight manuvering harder I don't think we'll
have any major prolems with that.

So, any other problems with having a longer trailer tongue?

Downsides to a long trailer tongue?
 

Downsides to a long trailer tongue?
 

Downsides to a long trailer tongue?
 

On 11 Dec 2003 04:38:54 -0800, (basskisser) wrote:

(Steven Shelikoff) wrote in message ...
On 10 Dec 2003 09:00:31 -0800, (basskisser) wrote:

K Smith wrote in message ...
Snafu wrote:
Gary, I'm not understanding the part about "the longer the tongue, the
furthur back we can put the wheels." To maintain the ~10% of the weight on
the hitch rule, increasing the tongue length works the opposite way.

Absolutely the longer the tongue (drawbar?) the further "forward" the
wheels will by to keep the balance right.

Once again, you've proven you stick your nose where it doesn't belong.
You certainly don't understand simple physics. If you make the tongue
longer, you will need to move the wheels BACK to keep the balance the
same. Say you have the tongue 10' from the wheels, and the tongue
weight is 100 pounds, to say, at that 10', you need to resist 100
pounds to lift the tongue. Now, we extend the tongue, to 15'. Now you
have a longer lever, thereby LESS tongue weight. To compensate, you
need to move the wheels BACK.

It really pains me to see the lack of understanding of basic physics by
a lot of people that this thread has exposed. For example, take the
argument above. Both of you may be right, both of you may be wrong, you
can't tell from the information given. In the specific example above of
a tongue weight of 100lbs with a tongue length of 10' from axle to
hitch, if you extend the tongue another 5' you may have to move the axle
forward, backward, or not at all to keep that 100lb hitch weight.
That's because in addition to changing the lever length, the weight on
the hitch also depends on what the weight of the additional 5' of tongue
did to the balance point. Since that hasn't been specified, the answer
is unknown.

The tongue would have to be made out of something VERY heavy, lead
perhaps, to to make up for the additional lever arm from the fulcrum
point. Basically, a foot of tongue would have to weigh the same as a
foot of the boat and trailer.

Bzzzzt! Wrong answer. It doesn't matter what a foot of the boat and
trailer weigh. The fact that it's wrong can be demonstrated very simply
by taking the problem to an extreme. Say in your example above that
your boat and trailer weighs 10,000 lbs and it's balanced so that the
hitch weight is only 1 lb. If you add 5' to the tongue, you are almost
gauranteed to *increase* the hitch weight unless you use some sort of
space aged material that weighs less then 1lb for the entire extension.

The boat and trailer could weight 1000 lbs/foot and you still would
significantly increase the hitch weight if the extension only weighed 1
lb/foot.

Steve

Downsides to a long trailer tongue?
 

On 11 Dec 2003 04:35:05 -0800, (basskisser) wrote:

(Steven Shelikoff) wrote in message ...
On 10 Dec 2003 09:00:31 -0800, (basskisser) wrote:

K Smith wrote in message ...
Snafu wrote:
Gary, I'm not understanding the part about "the longer the tongue, the
furthur back we can put the wheels." To maintain the ~10% of the weight on
the hitch rule, increasing the tongue length works the opposite way.

Absolutely the longer the tongue (drawbar?) the further "forward" the
wheels will by to keep the balance right.

K

Once again, you've proven you stick your nose where it doesn't belong.
You certainly don't understand simple physics. If you make the tongue
longer, you will need to move the wheels BACK to keep the balance the
same. Say you have the tongue 10' from the wheels, and the tongue
weight is 100 pounds, to say, at that 10', you need to resist 100
pounds to lift the tongue. Now, we extend the tongue, to 15'. Now you
have a longer lever, thereby LESS tongue weight. To compensate, you
need to move the wheels BACK.

Tell ya what I'll do, I'm not going to give you the answer, but I'll
define a problem and let basskisser and Karen come up with solutions and
see if they come up with the same one, and then hack out their
differences.

Let's go with the situation above. Assume you have a trailer where the
distance from hitch to axle is 10' and the tongue weight is 100lbs.
Also, assume that the trailer is level because if it isn't, it will
affect the answer. Also assume that the tongue extension has a constant
weight per unit length.

Now increase the length of the tongue to 15' from axle to hitch. Just
from the difference in leverage, what is the new, lower weight on the
hitch?

Since we assumed that the extension has a linear weight/length, the
center of mass of the extension is 2.5' from the hitch and 12.5' from
the axle. So what percentage of the weight of the extension is
supported by the hitch?

Knowing the percentage of the weight of the extension that's supported
by the hitch, how much does the extension have to weigh to exactly
counteract the decrease in weight due to leverage and keep the weight on
the hitch at 100lbs?

If the extension weighs any more than the answer you come up with, then
you have to move the wheels forward to keep the weight 100lbs. Any
less, then you have to move the wheels back.

Bonus question: assume that the original level trailer with the 10' from
axle to hitch weighs 1000lbs and the hitch weight is 100lbs, or 10% of
the trailer weight. You extend the tongue by 5' using an extension that
weighs 10 lbs/ft. How far and in what direction do you have to move the
axle to keep the hitch weight 10% of the new trailer weight?

Have fun!

Steve

I know damn well what the outcome is. But, I don't have to show/prove
to you a damned thing. I solve baby **** like that on a daily basis.

Apparently not if you think that the extension has to weigh the same per
unit length as the boat and trailer to balance it out.

Instead of thinking you know what the outcome is, why don't you solve
the problem and see if you're right? Don't even worry about the bonus
question if that's too hard. The main question is fairly simple to
solve even with the most basic high school level of physics. Hell, I
pretty much set the whole thing out for you on how to solve it.

Steve

Downsides to a long trailer tongue?
 

Downsides to a long trailer tongue?
 

Downsides to a long trailer tongue?
 

"basskisser" wrote in message
om...

Uh, no...let's see if YOU want to play the game. Find in the above
where you are in HUGE error. Hint: The c.g. of the boat/trailer has
not changed in relation to the fulcrum.


Okay, run this experiment:

Find a couple of kids that are the same weight and head off to a
playground that has a see-saw (do they still have these things??). Take
along a 1 foot 2x4 and a 10 foot 2x4, a C-clamp (to fasten the 2x4 to the
see-saw) and a scale.


Clamp the 1 foot 2x4 to the see-saw, and set the kids on seats. Measure the
downward force on the end of the 2x4. If the two kids were the same weight,
and the see-saw was balanced to start with, you should be measuring
something very close to zero.

Now remove the short 2x4 and clamp on the 10 foot 2x4. Take the same
measurement at the end of the this lever arm.

Do you really think that it will be less than zero?

The answer will be that you will measure some portion of the total weight of
the 2x4.

Back to the boat application:

If the original tongue weight was significantly more than the added weight
of the tongue extension then you can safely ignore it. On the other hand, if
the trailer was close to being "in balance" then you can't ignore it.

What Steve said is absolutely correct. Without knowing the balance point
you can't determine if adding tongue length will increase or decrease the
tongue weight.

Downsides to a long trailer tongue?
 

"RG" wrote in message
...

p.s. regarding an extended tongue making backing up "less
maneuverable"...yes, but, the longer the trailer/tongue, the BETTER the
trailer backs up.

That depends on your tow vehicle and what you consider to be "better".


The shorter the distance between the hitch and the trailer wheels, the
faster the trailer turns. This can be GREAT for maneuvering in tight
quarters, IF your tow vehicle can turn to match it. If you have a long
wheel base tow vehicle (slow turning) and a short wheel base trailer you can
end up having something that is a bitch to back up. If you are really good
at handling it you can prevent the trailer from getting into a turn that you
can't recover from (without pulling forward). Such a driver might not mind
this trailer characteristics.

A fair percentage of the people I see at the boat ramps would be much better
off with a much longer wheel base trailer!

Rod McInnis

Downsides to a long trailer tongue?
 

"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...


I'll define a problem

Can I play too??????

distance from hitch to axle is 10' and the tongue weight is 100lbs.

Okay, that is 10' x 100 lbs = 1000 ft-lbs moment around the axel.


Now increase the length of the tongue to 15' from axle to hitch.

1000 ft-lbs / 15 feet = 66.666 pounds.


center of mass of the extension is 2.5' from the hitch and 12.5' from
the axle. So what percentage of the weight of the extension is
supported by the hitch?

12.5' / 15' x 100 = 83%


Knowing the percentage of the weight of the extension that's supported
by the hitch, how much does the extension have to weigh to exactly
counteract the decrease in weight due to leverage and keep the weight on
the hitch at 100lbs?

33 lbs / .83 = 40.1 lbs.

Bonus question: assume that the original level trailer with the 10' from
axle to hitch weighs 1000lbs and the hitch weight is 100lbs, or 10% of
the trailer weight.

100 lbs x 10 feet = 1000 ft pounds. This means that the center of mass for
the trailer is 1 foot forward of the axels.

You extend the tongue by 5' using an extension that
weighs 10 lbs/ft.

We have added 50 pounds of material that has a center of mass 12.5 from
the axel. The moment about the axels would be 50 lbs x 12.5 ft = 625
ft-lbs. Total moment is now 1625 ft-lbs. The new tongue weight will be
108.3 pounds.

The new trailer weight is 1050 pounds.

1625 ft-lbs / 1050 pounds = 1.5 feet, thus the new center of mass is 1.5
feet in front of the axel, or 13.5 feet from the hitch.

How far and in what direction do you have to move the
axle to keep the hitch weight 10% of the new trailer weight?

The desired of tongue weight of 10% would be 105 pounds.
To get this, the distance from the hitch to the center of mass (13.5 feet)
needs to be 10 times greater than the distance from the center of mass to
the axel. Thus, the distance from the center of mass to the axel is 13.5/10
= 1.35 feet.

Answer: The axel will have to move FORWARD 0.15 feet



Did I get it right? Huh? Huh? Huh?
Do I get a star on my paper?????


Rod McInnis

Downsides to a long trailer tongue?
 

On 11 Dec 2003 10:48:51 -0800, (basskisser) wrote:

(Steven Shelikoff) wrote in message ...
On 11 Dec 2003 04:38:54 -0800, (basskisser) wrote:

(Steven Shelikoff) wrote in message ...
On 10 Dec 2003 09:00:31 -0800, (basskisser) wrote:

K Smith wrote in message ...
Snafu wrote:
Gary, I'm not understanding the part about "the longer the tongue, the
furthur back we can put the wheels." To maintain the ~10% of the weight on
the hitch rule, increasing the tongue length works the opposite way.

Absolutely the longer the tongue (drawbar?) the further "forward" the
wheels will by to keep the balance right.

Once again, you've proven you stick your nose where it doesn't belong.
You certainly don't understand simple physics. If you make the tongue
longer, you will need to move the wheels BACK to keep the balance the
same. Say you have the tongue 10' from the wheels, and the tongue
weight is 100 pounds, to say, at that 10', you need to resist 100
pounds to lift the tongue. Now, we extend the tongue, to 15'. Now you
have a longer lever, thereby LESS tongue weight. To compensate, you
need to move the wheels BACK.

It really pains me to see the lack of understanding of basic physics by
a lot of people that this thread has exposed. For example, take the
argument above. Both of you may be right, both of you may be wrong, you
can't tell from the information given. In the specific example above of
a tongue weight of 100lbs with a tongue length of 10' from axle to
hitch, if you extend the tongue another 5' you may have to move the axle
forward, backward, or not at all to keep that 100lb hitch weight.
That's because in addition to changing the lever length, the weight on
the hitch also depends on what the weight of the additional 5' of tongue
did to the balance point. Since that hasn't been specified, the answer
is unknown.

The tongue would have to be made out of something VERY heavy, lead
perhaps, to to make up for the additional lever arm from the fulcrum
point. Basically, a foot of tongue would have to weigh the same as a
foot of the boat and trailer.

Bzzzzt! Wrong answer. It doesn't matter what a foot of the boat and
trailer weigh. The fact that it's wrong can be demonstrated very simply
by taking the problem to an extreme. Say in your example above that
your boat and trailer weighs 10,000 lbs and it's balanced so that the
hitch weight is only 1 lb. If you add 5' to the tongue, you are almost
gauranteed to *increase* the hitch weight unless you use some sort of
space aged material that weighs less then 1lb for the entire extension.

The boat and trailer could weight 1000 lbs/foot and you still would
significantly increase the hitch weight if the extension only weighed 1
lb/foot.

Uh, no...let's see if YOU want to play the game. Find in the above
where you are in HUGE error. Hint: The c.g. of the boat/trailer has
not changed in relation to the fulcrum.

Are you actually trying to say that if I have a boat/trailer that weighs
10,000 lbs and the hitch is 10' from the axle and the hitch weight is
1lb, then I add an extension on the end of the tongue to increase the
hitch to axle distance to 15' and the hitch extension weighs a million
pounds, that I have not changed the location of the cg of the
boat/trailer in relation to the fulcrum, which is the axle?

If that's what you're trying to say, then I can only reiterate my
original point, which is that it's amazing to me the lack of
understanding of simple physics from quite a few posters that this
thread has brought to light.

Steve

Downsides to a long trailer tongue?
 

On 11 Dec 2003 10:42:43 -0800, (basskisser) wrote:

(Steven Shelikoff) wrote in message ...
On 11 Dec 2003 04:35:05 -0800, (basskisser) wrote:

(Steven Shelikoff) wrote in message ...
On 10 Dec 2003 09:00:31 -0800, (basskisser) wrote:

K Smith wrote in message ...
Snafu wrote:
Gary, I'm not understanding the part about "the longer the tongue, the
furthur back we can put the wheels." To maintain the ~10% of the weight on
the hitch rule, increasing the tongue length works the opposite way.

Absolutely the longer the tongue (drawbar?) the further "forward" the
wheels will by to keep the balance right.

K

Once again, you've proven you stick your nose where it doesn't belong.
You certainly don't understand simple physics. If you make the tongue
longer, you will need to move the wheels BACK to keep the balance the
same. Say you have the tongue 10' from the wheels, and the tongue
weight is 100 pounds, to say, at that 10', you need to resist 100
pounds to lift the tongue. Now, we extend the tongue, to 15'. Now you
have a longer lever, thereby LESS tongue weight. To compensate, you
need to move the wheels BACK.

Tell ya what I'll do, I'm not going to give you the answer, but I'll
define a problem and let basskisser and Karen come up with solutions and
see if they come up with the same one, and then hack out their
differences.

Let's go with the situation above. Assume you have a trailer where the
distance from hitch to axle is 10' and the tongue weight is 100lbs.
Also, assume that the trailer is level because if it isn't, it will
affect the answer. Also assume that the tongue extension has a constant
weight per unit length.

Now increase the length of the tongue to 15' from axle to hitch. Just
from the difference in leverage, what is the new, lower weight on the
hitch?

Since we assumed that the extension has a linear weight/length, the
center of mass of the extension is 2.5' from the hitch and 12.5' from
the axle. So what percentage of the weight of the extension is
supported by the hitch?

Knowing the percentage of the weight of the extension that's supported
by the hitch, how much does the extension have to weigh to exactly
counteract the decrease in weight due to leverage and keep the weight on
the hitch at 100lbs?

If the extension weighs any more than the answer you come up with, then
you have to move the wheels forward to keep the weight 100lbs. Any
less, then you have to move the wheels back.

Bonus question: assume that the original level trailer with the 10' from
axle to hitch weighs 1000lbs and the hitch weight is 100lbs, or 10% of
the trailer weight. You extend the tongue by 5' using an extension that
weighs 10 lbs/ft. How far and in what direction do you have to move the
axle to keep the hitch weight 10% of the new trailer weight?

Have fun!

Steve

I know damn well what the outcome is. But, I don't have to show/prove
to you a damned thing. I solve baby **** like that on a daily basis.

Apparently not if you think that the extension has to weigh the same per
unit length as the boat and trailer to balance it out.

didn't say that. Read for context, please.

When I said that it's possible that you could be wrong, that the wheels
would have to move forward to balance out the extra weight of the hitch,
you said:
The tongue would have to be made out of something VERY heavy, lead
perhaps, to to make up for the additional lever arm from the fulcrum
point. Basically, a foot of tongue would have to weigh the same as a
foot of the boat and trailer.

If you didn't mean that a foot of the extension would have to weight the
same as a foot of the boat and trailer with your statement above, then
what did you mean?

Instead of thinking you know what the outcome is, why don't you solve
the problem and see if you're right? Don't even worry about the bonus
question if that's too hard. The main question is fairly simple to
solve even with the most basic high school level of physics. Hell, I
pretty much set the whole thing out for you on how to solve it.

Steve

I KNOW I'm right. And, yes, as I've stated, it IS basic high school
physics. Again, I KNOW the answer, but alas, I'm not about to play

You were wrong once, so apparently you don't KNOW the answer.

your idiotic games. I have nothing that I need to prove to an
ignoramus like you. Explaining and teaching something to a dimwit is
all but impossible.

You said it, not me.

Steve