What a pleasant person you are, bilge rat.

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
McVeigh was a stooge for the left wing Clinton Administration.

Wo. Has somebody gotten into your head and rewired things, or what?

And to think just minutes ago *you* posted:

"When you can't mount a convincing argument, resort to name calling and wild
accusations."

Pot kettle black.

E.E.Bud Keith wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...

Nick Hull wrote:

In article , Jim
wrote:


Lawful my ass! -- no order to shoot was given, several of
those killed were not part of the demenstration, merely
walking to class and hit by "errant" bullets

It's lawful anytime the law (gov t) does it. It's unlawful anytime you
protest the law. Scumbags (taxpayers) are not entitled to the bill of
rights


It's just another example, albeit historial, of the wonderful face of
democracy we offer the world when the fascist Republicans are in office.


I bet that you learned that from your Marist pals who said that anybody that
thought they were nuts were Fascists.
Is it ok if we refer to you a jewish pinko communist puke.

--
Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
And don't forget to pay your taxes so the rich don't have to!



We all *knew* what a complete ****ing right wing ignoramus
you are, "Bud"..

Now we see that you are also a goddam racist. Well, that
seems to be Common Feature Number 2 among the goddam Noble
Republican turds.

Eat ****, Bud.

--
"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful.
And so are we..
Our enemies never stop thinking about ways to harm our country and our
people.
And neither do we.."

-George W. Bush, August 5, 2002

E.E.Bud Keith wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...

Gunner wrote:

On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 16:07:05 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote:


If you consider mayhem and assault, vandalism and violence to be
proper expressions of Dissent, then pray to whatever you hold holy
that the Right never takes your lead. We are the ones heavily armed,
military trained in killing people and breaking things. You will pray
for rocks if the Right ever uses your style of dissent.

Gunner


Yeah, the "right" sticks to blowing up federal office buildings,
abortion clinics, and invading the wrong countries...for now.

Cites? Or are you going to give me some cites about individuals?

Virtually all the terrorist attacks of significance in recent years have
been the work of conservative, right-wing assholes and the groups to
which they belong...Osama, McVeigh, Cheney, et al.



Want me to post some cites about individuals on the Left? I can you
know...quite a number.

I don't give a crap what you post, dickwiper. You're now in my bozo
bin, along with the other mental defectives.


Writing under another name again Brian, Posts by you under any name are so
easy to recognize. Written by and egomaniac who thinks that only he has the
right answer to every problem, And if someone dares to disagree with him, he
unleashes a torrent of vile hate and abusive langauge. Come to think of it
you remind me very much of the little corporal who so loved to hate
everybody in the world
And like your communist idols those that disagreed with him were eliminated.
For now you can only attempt to smear those you dislike with hate. But
should people like you ever can any real power the world is in for the
biggest blood bath in history.

Gunner, eh? Did your mama name you after the dog?


--
Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
And don't forget to pay your taxes so the rich don't have to!



Yes, anyone NOT being a ****ing right wing moron like "Bud"
just has to be a communist..

Get back to being McCarthy, you fascist little right wing
ignoramus.

--
"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful.
And so are we..
Our enemies never stop thinking about ways to harm our country and our
people.
And neither do we.."

-George W. Bush, August 5, 2002

E.E.Bud Keith wrote:

"Dan" wrote in message
...

"Gunner" wrote


Of course no order to fire was given. And as Ive previously noted..if
Im attacked by a mob, Im not going to wait for a fire order.

Were they attacked by a mob, they would have been justified in
firing.


As to having no business on campus..when an area is under riot
conditions, that is exactly what the Guard is for.

There were no riot conditions, so the Guard should not
have been ordered onto campus. Simple.

But, of course, to Neocons, any peaceful protest is a "riot."
I guess that comes from being ignorant cowards.

Dan


Sure Danny boy we have all seen what you refer to as peacefull
demonstrations. Like blocking traffic or preventing those with business to
go about there business.
Throwing rocks bottle and glass, throwing plastic bags full of urine and
feces. Usually a bunch of dumb kids who are egged on by worthless filthy
mindless grown up (physically only)hippies who then stay out of harms way.
I really wonder just how peacefull you would be if someone clobbered you
with a bottle or a rock, perhaps you would love to be zapped with a bag of
**** or hit in the face with a bag of ****.
Peacefull dissent my ass.




Learn to spell 'peaceful', Ignoramus "Bud"..

Throwing feces? Well, that seems to be a major capability
you goddam Noble Republican turds have mastered.


--
"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful.
And so are we..
Our enemies never stop thinking about ways to harm our country and our
people.
And neither do we.."

-George W. Bush, August 5, 2002

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Leftists are scum. And they kill people in megadoses.

Gunner

When you can't mount a convincing argument, resort to name calling and
wild
accusations.

The Gould hypocrisy rears its two faced head again.

When you can't mount a convincing argument, resort to name calling and
wild
accusations.

The Gould hypocrisy rears its two faced head again.


I should have said, "name calling, wild accusations, and personal attacks".

As far as (I forget just whose) observation that I don't criticize Harry for
the same behavior- that's BS. I criticized Harry within the last few days for
his unfortunate choice of style. I just don't make it my life's work to chase
Harry through the NG. I only read about 10% of what he posts- particularly when
a thread has devolved to name calling.

With a half dozen people in the NG whose sole function is to flame Harry Krause
no matter what he says, I don't need to join the chorus. (Besides, the company
in that particular group is often a little sketchy, and often throws a bit of
crap my way as well).

Harry's case is pretty sad. He's smart enough to have a choice, and he chooses
a style that alienates almost everybody.
Some of the other folks who try to personalize every issue lack the brains to
discuss a complex issue (beyond repeating the "talking points" of the day)
and they are doing the best they can.

This "Gunner" character is quite a piece of work. He repeats the wild
distortion that I have never heard *anybody* except Limbaugh or Hannity
espouse....(that the heroic Guardsmen at Kent State were defending their lives
against an enraged mob of rioting, drug crazed, communist students charging
them with rocks and bottles)........and when 6, 8, or 10 people tell him he is
wrong and direct him to a wide variety of resources consistently relating an
accurate recount of events his ultimate flame off is to say that "Leftists are
scum. And they kill people in megadoses."

I can't remember the last time I blasted somebody for taking a shot at Harry.
He gets what he deserves.

What does it say about somebody who blasts me for being critical of "Gunner"?

"Julian D." wrote in message
...
On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 03:11:28 GMT, "Jeff McCann"
wrote:


"Julian D." wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 16:52:12 -0700, jps wrote:

In article ,
says...

I despise malcontent protesters.

Well then, you're probably not the best person to consider the
consequences of such action, are you?

jps


I'm wise enough to avoid doing anything that would get my skull
crushed by a police baton.

It takes real guts to confront the cops in a peaceful protest. It wasn't
so
long ago that swinging batons, firehoses, tear gas, and attack dogs were
the
all too common approach to dissent. Very recently, we saw official
intimidation and unlawful detentions used against protester in NYC.
Standing up to be counted is a dangerous undertaking, even in our
supposedly
enlightened era. But sometimes it just has to be done, and that means
somebody has to find the guts to do it.

To do what? Show off to the American electorate what a bunch of
anti-American, anti-capitalist, socialist nitwits you guys are?
The protests accomplished NOTHING positive for your side. It helped
Bush.

I was thinking more of, for example, civil rights protesters in Alabama or
the guy that stood up to that Chinese tank. I wasn't in NY, but I wasn't
impressed by the various protests there, either. Of course, that doesn't
excuse the intimidation tactics or the illegal detentions used against them.

Jeff

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 03:11:28 GMT, "Jeff McCann"
wrote:


"Julian D." wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 16:52:12 -0700, jps wrote:

In article ,
says...

I despise malcontent protesters.

Well then, you're probably not the best person to consider the
consequences of such action, are you?

jps


I'm wise enough to avoid doing anything that would get my skull
crushed by a police baton.

It takes real guts to confront the cops in a peaceful protest. It wasn't
so
long ago that swinging batons, firehoses, tear gas, and attack dogs were
the
all too common approach to dissent. Very recently, we saw official
intimidation and unlawful detentions used against protester in NYC.
Standing up to be counted is a dangerous undertaking, even in our
supposedly
enlightened era. But sometimes it just has to be done, and that means
somebody has to find the guts to do it.

Jeff

Please provide cites of unlawful police activity in NYC during the
Rep. Convention. No blogs please.


Anti-war activist Rachael Perrotta was sitting on the front steps of a
friend's house in Boston when four men approached her and told her they were
from the FBI.

They asked Perrotta for her name. An experienced political protester,
Perrotta, 24, refused to answer. If they wanted to ask her questions, she
said, they had to talk to her lawyer first.

At this point, lawyers and legal experts say, the FBI agents should have
turned around and left. But they didn't.

"They just kept asking questions," Perrotta said. "It was a frightening
experience."

For 20 minutes, Perrotta said, the agents ignored her refusals to respond
and continued to question her about possible violence during the
presidential race and about other anti-war protesters in what government
officials say was an attempt to prevent violence during election-year
political events.

The FBI acknowledges it has interviewed dozens of political activists across
the country in recent weeks, having received intelligence "that individuals
were planning to conduct violent criminal activity" at the Democratic
convention in Boston last month, and the coming Republican National
Convention in New York.

But lawyers, human rights advocates and some U.S. lawmakers say the
questioning has crossed the line into intimidation.

"I believe that the FBI is genuinely concerned about uncovering terrorist
activity and violence," said Donna Lieberman, executive director of the New
York Civil Liberties Union, but added that agents should honor protected
dissent, the core of democracy.

Attorney General John Ashcroft defended the FBI interviews at a news
conference yesterday. Ashcroft said FBI agents interviewed only protesters
they believed were plotting to firebomb media vehicles at the Democratic
convention or might have known about such plots.



Ashcroft said suggestions that the interviews were aimed at stifling
protests were an "outrageous distortion."

"We interviewed a very limited number of people that we believed were either
participating in a plan to criminally and violently disrupt the Democratic
National Convention, or individuals that might have known something about
that plan," Ashcroft said.

Joe Parris, an FBI spokesman in Washington, said officers from the bureau's
Joint Terrorism Task Force are entitled to question activists about possible
violence around high-profile election-year events. "The interviewees were
free to talk to us or not. Nobody was taken into custody, locked up for
interrogation. Nobody was given the third degree," he said.

But some legal experts say it is inappropriate for law enforcement agents to
continue questioning people who have invoked their right to counsel.

"It is a form of badgering, and it is clearly designed to coerce or
intimidate witnesses with the objective being that they should speak to them
without counsel," said Jonathan Turley, a George Washington University law
professor.

This week, several Democratic lawmakers called for a Justice Department
investigation into whether the questioning violated the protesters' First
Amendment rights.

In a letter to the Justice Department, Rep. John Conyers, D-Mich., the
ranking Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee, and two other panel
members, Reps. Jerrold Nadler, D-N.Y., and Robert Scott, D-Va., said the FBI
appeared to be "engaged in systematic political harassment and intimidation
of legitimate anti-war protesters."

Gary Bald, assistant director of the FBI's counterterrorism division, said
the bureau anticipates violent protests at the upcoming Republican National
Convention in New York but does not have enough evidence to move against any
group or person.

Federal investigators have infiltrated some groups and are monitoring
protest plans published on the Internet.

New York officials have said they expect hundreds of thousands of people to
stage demonstrations around the convention, which begins Aug. 30.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/nation...312_fbi21.html
*****
Three Democratic lawmakers on the House Judiciary Committee have criticized
the FBI's interviews of protesters around the country. They asked the
Justice Department's inspector general to investigate what they called
"possible violations of First Amendment free speech and assembly rights."

[snip] The committee's ranking Democrat, Michigan's John Conyers, along with
Reps. Robert C. "Bobby" Scott of Virginia and Jerrold Nadler of New York,
said in a letter that the FBI "appears to be engaged in systematic political
harassment and intimidation of legitimate anti-war protesters." [snip]
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in636357.shtml
*****
NEW YORK (AP) - Long-haired and bearded, Sebastian Licht said he set out
Tuesday to celebrate his 22nd birthday, only to be mocked by a police
officer as "Jesus" and swept up in one of the largest mass arrests in the
nation's history.
He emerged two days later from court - smelly, bleeding and determined to
become the activist he says police feared he was.

One of more than 1,700 people arrested this week at demonstrations aimed at
the Republican National Convention, Licht gained his freedom on Thursday
morning. A judge, frustrated at the city's pace in moving protesters through
the criminal justice system, ordered the immediate release of nearly 500 of
them.

Most of those arrested were anti-GOP protesters, but some insist they got
snared in the chaos. Licht puts himself in the latter category.

Wearing a Polo Sport Ralph Lauren shirt and khaki shorts, Licht described
his 6 p.m. arrest Tuesday in Herald Square, where he said he approached a
subway station that he learned was closed only to be caught in a police
sweep of the area.

"Because I have long hair and a beard, they took me," he said.

At one point after his arrest, he said, a police officer saw him laughing.
"What's so funny, Jesus?" he recalled the officer asking.

He said the officer then tightened the handcuffs and said, "It's not so
funny now, is it, Jesus?" Blood seeped from a small cut on his wrist as he
recalled the incident.

Now free, he said he planned to look for a protest rally, inspired by his
experience and the many political discussions he heard while waiting with
protesters to appear in court and be released. He called it the "birth of my
activism."

Among more seasoned activists emerging from court was Mikel Stone, 29, of
Denver, who described his time at a detention center on Pier 57 as a
nightmare, part of the same two-day odyssey experienced by Licht. "My throat
still hurts and my joints are achy," he said.

He said a thick black oily residue on the floor of Pier 57 stained his pants
during the two days he was locked up after he was caught in a police net
arrest at Herald Square on Tuesday.

A political science student and anti-war activist, Stone said he believed
harsh detention conditions were part of an effort by the city to be "cruel
and demoralizing."

Still, he said he planned to protest Thursday night.

Tim Kulik, 22, a photography student at the Rochester Institute of
Technology who was transporting film for photographers at The Associated
Press when he was arrested late Tuesday on his bicycle, was freed Thursday
after 35 hours.

He said he was scraped on his face and bruised on his leg and neck when a
police officer tackled him before other officers completed the arrest. The
officer who tackled him later tightened his handcuffs when he asked that
they be loosened, he said.

"As far as police, they're good, pretty objective and professional, but then
I encountered plenty of disrespectful police who abuse their positions," he
said.

Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly said officers acted with restraint. In a
statement Thursday, he said there had been "exaggerated claims and outright
falsehoods" about the conditions at the post-arrest screening site at Pier
57.

He said most detainees are held there for 90 minutes, none was there longer
than eight hours and all had immediate access to toilet facilities and
drinking water.

Civil rights lawyer Norman Siegel, who led Thursday's court fight to get the
detainees freed, said the long detentions were illegal, especially since the
time in overcrowded, dirty conditions was disproportionate to the alleged
misdemeanor crimes, such as disorderly conduct.

"People engaged in real crimes are getting out quicker than the protesters,"
he said. "It's an Alice in Wonderland approach."
http://www.sacbee.com/24hour/nation/...-9303847c.html
*****
NEW YORK (CNN) -- A judge in Manhattan held the city of New York in contempt
Thursday, saying police did not abide by his order to release more than 500
people arrested in protests this week.

The judge imposed a $1,000 fine for every person who was not released.

State Supreme Court Judge John Cataldo had initially ordered that 560
people, rounded up in demonstrations surrounding the Republican National
Convention, be released or made ready for arraignment by 5 p.m. Thursday.

Later, Cataldo imposed sanctions after ruling that the city had failed to
comply with his order. Cataldo rejected the city's argument that it was
doing everything it could to expedite the releases.

New York was overwhelmed when more than 1,100 protesters were arrested
Tuesday and the judge "was wrong not to permit the city sufficient time to
complete the processing of arrestees," attorney Michael Cardozo said.

"The city believes these fines are not warranted on the facts of this case
and will consider its legal options when they are assessed," he said.

It was not immediately clear how many of the detainees remained in custody.
Law enforcement sources said about 350 people were released Thursday.

Clare Norrins, an attorney with the National Lawyers Guild, said hundreds of
people were still in custody and are not scheduled to be arraigned.

Many of the arrested had spent more than 38 hours in custody, despite a
legal guideline recommending that anyone arrested for a minor violation
during the convention be released or arraigned within 24 hours.

One person had been in custody for 58 hours, said Colin Starger, a volunteer
attorney with the lawyers association.

Attorneys with the Legal Aid Society said most of 595 people detained at
central booking in downtown Manhattan are being held for minor violations,
while more serious offenders, including some arrested Wednesday for
shoplifting, have already been released.

"There is no good reason they had to wait this long," said Michele Maxian,
an attorney with the Legal Aid Society. "The courts were ready and able to
arraign protesters, but the courtrooms are empty."

Lawyers have criticized the indiscriminate nature of the arrests.

"They would just round up groups with these orange, plastic nets and arrest
many innocent people in the process, including members of the press, people
going to the movies, shoppers coming out of stores and businessmen going
home from work," Maxian said.

New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg has stood by the police department.

"You have to take fingerprints, you have to establish identities. Sometimes
people don't want to tell you who they are and it just takes a while to go
through the normal process. But given that we arrested four times the normal
number on one day, I think that we have done a pretty good job," he said.

Andre 3000, half of the hip-hop duo OutKast, who came to New York to make a
documentary about voter registration, was awaiting the release of two crew
members who were arrested Tuesday.

"They were on the street and they were filming protesters. The police came
over and they ... gave them a couple of directions to scoot to the side,"
Andre said. "And they did everything police said and actually the policeman
said, 'No, this is not an arrest, you're not getting locked up,' and two or
three minutes later, then they started to say, 'Get down on the ground.' And
they put these plastic things on people's hands ... and they shipped them
off."
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/...tion.protests/
*****
Judge orders release of nearly 500 GOP protesters
NEW YORK (AP) - A judge ordered the immediate release of nearly 500
protesters just hours before President Bush's speech at the Republican
convention, then fined the city for refusing to comply with his order.

Lauren Ross, center, is comforted by her friend Lisa Fithian, both from
Austin, Texas, after their release from central booking in New York City,
Thursday.
By Bebeto Matthews, AP

City officials later said they would release all of the protesters by late
Thursday. (Video: Protests continue on final day)

The legal battle came as the convention received a mostly mellow sendoff
from demonstrators who had spent the early part of the week venting their
rage at the Bush administration.

Hundreds of protesters gathered - noisily but without incident - near
Madison Square Garden as a huge wall of police stood between them and the
site of the convention. As President Bush began his nomination acceptance
speech inside at about 10 p.m., the crowds of protesters outside began to
disperse. The week saw nearly 1,800 arrests in all, but only 26 on Thursday.
(Related story: Detainees detail experiences)

There were accusations that the city was deliberately holding the protesters
longer so they would not be in the streets during Bush's speech.

"The evidence shows that the city told defendants that they would not be
released until George Bush went home," said Dan Alterman of the National
Lawyers Guild.

The New York Police Department denied the charge.

"The allegations that the NYPD was purposely holding demonstrators until
after the president of the United States left New York City was part of a
deliberate misinformation campaign," police spokesman Paul Browne said.

State Supreme Court Justice John Cataldo fined the city $1,000 for every
protester held past a 5 p.m. deadline that he had set for their release. It
was unclear how many detainees were still in custody, but Cataldo had
ordered the release of 470 people.

"These people have already been the victims of a process," Cataldo told the
city's top lawyer. "I can no longer accept your statement that you are
trying to comply."

City Corporation Counsel Michael Cardozo tried in vain to convince the judge
that the city was trying desperately to comply with his wishes.

"We can't just open the jails of the city of New York and let everybody
out," Cardozo said. "We're not trying to flout your honor's order. ... We're
doing everything humanly possible."

He later said the judge "was wrong not to permit the city sufficient time"
to process all the detainees. Cardozo called the fines unwarranted and said
the city would consider its legal options when the fines are assessed.

About 50 of the detainees had launched a hunger strike Thursday to protest
their extended time behind bars while awaiting arraignment. They were
turning down the sandwiches and milk served three times a day until everyone
was freed.

On Thursday, New York commuters were greeted at Grand Central Station by
about 100 demonstrators unfurling banners and releasing colorful balloons
urging Bush to do more in the fight against AIDS.

Thousands of protesters also milled around Union Square at a candlelight
vigil organized by United for Peace and Justice.

"I'm here as an advocate for peace," said John Morris, 44, sitting with a
candle in his hands. "Our president missed an opportunity for peace, and we
need a new leader."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politic...ts-thurs_x.htm
*****

Jeff

Gunner wrote in message . ..
On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 22:08:06 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote:

Dan wrote:
"Gunner" wrote

Of course no order to fire was given. And as Ive previously noted..if
Im attacked by a mob, Im not going to wait for a fire order.

Were they attacked by a mob, they would have been justified in
firing.

As to having no business on campus..when an area is under riot
conditions, that is exactly what the Guard is for.

There were no riot conditions, so the Guard should not
have been ordered onto campus. Simple.

But, of course, to Neocons, any peaceful protest is a "riot."
I guess that comes from being ignorant cowards.

Dan


The national guard attack on the students in Ohio clearly shows what
happens when idiots are allowed to have guns.

No..the student attack on the national guard in in Ohio clearly shows
what happens when idiots attack armed men.

That's some intense spin.


Shug.

Checkmate

Gunner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke

Liberalism comfortably displayed as a strawman. How convenient
for you. Now you can write off an entire way of thinking. That
should make things easier to process, yes?