"Mark Browne" wrote in message

.... It may be instructive to reflect on how many of the conservative
suggestions for the middle east have been tried by Russia, and have
failed
miserably.

.....being sure to only include those Russian efforts carried out in exactly
the same manner on exactly the same timetable as any putative US actions.

Or, it may not be instructive at all.

"Mark Browne" wrote in message news:dcSdnbd-

Yep, the PNAC site lays it all our pretty well.

Not only PNAC. The necessary strategy is clear to any who can see past
their own nose. As I said earlier "...nor were they difficult to see right
from the start by those who cared to look."


This has
always been about the strategic securing of the mid-east

... Oil ...

Simplistic leftists would like everyone to believe that it is all about oil,
but it's about the strategic securing of the mid-east. The reliable flow of
crude is, by definition, part of the equation.

And tell me abain how well has the west been about to pull this off over
the
last thousand or so years?

Now here is an odd little snippet - tell me again about this coalition of
the willing?

Telling choice of adjective. Would it would be better if they were ultra
modern?

Any cogent point you may have been trying to make in these previous three
paragraphs has eluded me.

with primitive theocratic notions of law and society

Right on! Tell that to the US religouis right!

Have Christian sects in the US set up their own governments and legal
systems? Did I miss the news today? If you seriously attempt to equate the
Christian right in the US with Muslim fundamentalist theocracies, you have
truly lost touch.


Destrction of everything we hold dear? Correct me if I got this wrong -

You're wrong.

In reading through the OBL stuff on the web, I did not see much
about the destruction of the west. Perhaps you have a cite that can clear
this up for me?

Cite, Shmite. If you look for legitimate plans and goals of al Qaida et al
on their websites, your naiveté will show through. All you have to do is
look around you.

"John Gaquin" wrote in message
...

"Mark Browne" wrote in message

.... It may be instructive to reflect on how many of the conservative
suggestions for the middle east have been tried by Russia, and have
failed
miserably.

....being sure to only include those Russian efforts carried out in
exactly
the same manner on exactly the same timetable as any putative US actions.

Or, it may not be instructive at all.

Ok, lets compare note in 10 years; that's how long it took for little-bitty
Afghanistan to bankrupt the Soviets.

Mark Browne
Mumbles to self - 200 billion a year for 10 year, expansion of the war into
Cambodia - 'er, I meant Syria or Iran, looming baby boomer retirement bomb,
bulk of the big tax cuts actually kicking in. Ya ten years should do it!

Or are you proposing a
national draft?


We'll see a draft again beginning in 2005.
Too hot an issue in an election year.
We cannot expand the current war into Iran, (which is the next stage of the New
American Century Plan that Bush has followed to date), without a *lot* more
cannon fodder.

How many times do you extend the tours of the poor guys and gals in the Guard
and Reserve before you begin bordering on involuntary servitude, anyway?

What makes you think that either we or Russia can afford *not* to fight this
war? We couldn't afford to fight WW II, either, but it was something that
had to be done.

I'm not sure that Roosevelt was busily cutting the taxes for the privileged
classes at the same time he was trying to fund WWII.

Try to put this country on the war footing we had in WWII, and it wouldn't fly.
Gas rationing, anyone?

What would be your response? Would you wait until the next attack to see if
the terrorists really meant to harm us?

Of course not. The idea is to prevent the next, and all future attacks. You
guys generally seem to think that means militarily taking over every country
where criminal terrorists reside. I think it means:

1. Identify the enemy. Do this by doubling, tripling, or quintupling the
intelligence budget. Use both electronic surveillance *and* clandestine
operatives. Infiltrate the
terrorist cells and identify the criminal terrorist *******s during the
planning process, (not after the fact).

2. Surgically remove the terrorist leaders.
We can do this in ways that would leave even their supporters unsure whether
the
head ******* was taken out by the US or died of natural causes.

3. Avoid repeating the mistakes of Israel, Russia, and other countries that
have decades of experience fighting the same problem.

4. Try to insure that we are not creating hatred for the US faster than we are
killing off the folks who already hate us.

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
What would be your response? Would you wait until the next attack to see
if
the terrorists really meant to harm us?

Of course not. The idea is to prevent the next, and all future attacks.
You
guys generally seem to think that means militarily taking over every
country
where criminal terrorists reside. I think it means:

The best way to prevent an offensive force from killing you is to kill them
first.

1. Identify the enemy. Do this by doubling, tripling, or quintupling the
intelligence budget. Use both electronic surveillance *and* clandestine
operatives. Infiltrate the
terrorist cells and identify the criminal terrorist *******s during the
planning process, (not after the fact).

I'm glad you have seen the error of Kerry's ways and you want to correct the
damage he and his fellow Democrats have done to our intelligence
capabilities.

2. Surgically remove the terrorist leaders.
We can do this in ways that would leave even their supporters unsure
whether
the
head ******* was taken out by the US or died of natural causes.

Killing the top guy only means that a new top guy will emerge. Start at the
bottom.

3. Avoid repeating the mistakes of Israel, Russia, and other countries
that
have decades of experience fighting the same problem.

Isreal has had their hands tied behind their backs by international public
opinion. One of these days they will flip the world the bird and solve the
middle east problem themselves.

Russia couldn't react fast enough in Afganistan, we proved that.

4. Try to insure that we are not creating hatred for the US faster than we
are
killing off the folks who already hate us.

If everybody hates us then why do the oppressed people of the world want to
come here to better their lives?

The Irish and the Jews occupied the lands long before the English and
Palistinines, respectively, breached the borders.


Irish, yes. Jews, no.

The oldest recorded inhabitants of the area now called Israel were tribes that
are generally ancestral to the Palestinians.
I don't know what religion you practice, if any, but if it happens to be
Christianity, Judaism, or Islam, refer to the book of Exodus. It's considered
holy writ in all three traditions, and it clearly records the invasion of "the
promised land" by Joshua and the Jewish exiles from Egypt.

And talk about terrorism, wow. Yahweh, the Hebrew diety, instructed Joshua to
kill all the men, women, children, and even the livestock in the various towns
and cities they conquered.

Until immediately after WWII, there hadn't really been a "Jewish state" in
Israel for almost 2000 years. The area was
solidly Muslim during the time of the Crusades, and that does go back a piece.
:-)

Nevertheless, Bush still is leading by 38 Electoral college votes...which is
8 more than he led by last week...and a huge swing from 2 weeks ago when he
was behind by a bunch. I expect to see him with with an EC lead of 80-120
points by next Monday or Tuesday's electionprojection.com calculations.


You may indeed be right about the ElecProj lead early next week- as it will
reflect the understandably strong Bush ratings immediately after the
convention.

After that, you'll need to snuff out your victory cigar until November- *if*
you get to light it up again. :-)

Are you subscribed to the *daily* updates? The electionprojection map that
I'm looking at is from 9/5...and Oregon and Washington are leaning Kerry on
that map.

No, I'm seeing the same thing, but EP has changed the map from solid blue to
light blue on those two states.

I'm hoping for a change in leadership this year, so I guess I'm concerned when
the robustly healthy blue begins fading to
pale. Next thing you know, that dratted pink could begin appearing and pretty
soon
the dreaded red disease takes hold.

Hey, there's a thought for you guys on the
far right: Freebie campaign slogan that emphasizes your scare tactic that
unless George Bush remains in power we're all gong to be incinerated by
terrorists. It's a bit of a twist on an old standard,

"Better red than dead". :-)