"thunder" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 04 Sep 2004 12:09:46 -0400, Bert Robbins wrote:


You are correct. But, Kerry should be ashamed for asking for purple
hearts
for scratches.


As it is a two man race, it seems to me we should be comparing the two
candidates military records. I have found a site that does just that.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/4/21/19216/5237

Ok, lets compare accomplishments:

Pres. Bush was governor of Texas, elected and re-elected. And, Pres. Bush
was elected to be President of the US.

Kerry's executive management of large governmental organizations is what?

Gould,
Kerry enlisted in the Navy to get out of being drafted into the army. He
requested a 2S deferment, was denied and chose the Navy as a better
alternative to the army.

And therefore he was not a draftee.

One whole bunch of people opted to join the Coast Guard, the Navy, the Texas
Air National Guard, or etc to avoid trudging through tropical forests while
lugging heavy weapons.

One who volunteers, regardless of the motivation, is not a draftee.

I do appreciate the correction concerning this first term of duty, I was not
aware of that. The question I have is if he spent 12 months in VN, he knew
we were burning villages, raping the population, killing innocent people,
and committing extreme atrocities and war crimes, why did he volunteer for a
term of duty?

Who knows?

In December of 1968, we had 535,000 troops in Viet Nam.

Take any city of 1/2 million people. There are going to be a lot of bad actors.
If 98% of the troops observed the Geneva conventions, and 2% did not, that
means we had about 10,000 jerkoffs in country
who could very conceivably commit atrocities.

Did all, or most, of the guys in Viet Nam commit atrocities? Heck no, unless
you count war itself as an atrocity. Did some guys do every one of the things
that the Winter Soldiers testified about? Certainly.

Without getting bogged down in detail, one of the most lethal forces we had in
Viet Nam was the CIA.

We ran a program called "Phoenix" in Viet Nam, the Viet Namese called if Phung
Hoang. The Phung Hoang, like the Phoenix, was also a giant bird. The Phung
Hoang of legend would snatch people out of their beds at night, just like the
CIA.

"Phoenix" involved methods not in the least approved the Geneva conventions.
Our enlisted fround forces were often used as "muscle" by the CIA, with full
cooperation from the highest levels of command
..
Here's an excerpt from a book by a very highly decorated VN veteran. His
experience was not typical, but it does
add some credibility to stories about cutting off ears, etc.

"The problem was, how do you find the people on the blacklist? It's not like
you had their address and telephone number. The normal procedure would be to go
into a village and just grab someone and say, 'Where's Nguyen so-and-so?' Half
the time the people were so afraid they would say anything. Then a Phoenix team
would take the informant, put a sandbag over his head, poke out two holes so he
could see, put commo wire around his neck like a long leash, and walk him
through the village and say, 'When we go by Nguyen's house scratch your head.'
Then that night Phoenix would come back, knock on the door, and say, 'April
Fool, mother****er.' Whoever answered the door would get wasted. As far as they
were concerned whoever answered was a Communist, including family members.
Sometimes they'd come back to camp with ears to prove that they killed people."
-- Vincent Okamoto, combat officer (Lieutenant) in Vietnam in 1968, and
recipient of Distinguished Service Cross, the second highest award conferred by
the U.S. Army. Wounded 3 times. He was also an intelligence liaison officer for
the Phoenix Program for 2 months in 1968. Quote is from page 361 of the
hardback 2003 first edition of the book "Patriots: the Vietnam War remembered
from all sides."

The log book of the USS Gridely has been checked and it was in SEA for five
weeks during Kerry's 12 month tour on the ship. So, Kerry did not serve 16
monts in country.

Just goes to prove that if enough people repeat the same lies over and
over,
pretty soon a great number of folks begin to believethem.

It appears that you are falling into the repeating of lies.

Excuse me!

The ship was at sea for five weeks out of a 52-week year. So he was five weeks
short of 16 months.

So, let's test truth here. Rush Limbaugh, Hannity, Savage, and the rest of your
cheerleaders all keep repeating "four months in Viet Nam!"

I said 16 months, as he was on duty on a ship that was patrolling the coast of
Viet Nam for (most of) 12-months.

Right Wing Hate Radio Version: "Four months in Viet Nam"

Gould's Version: Sixteen months.

If we pick nits and subtract the five weeks the ship was at sea, we are still
left with
14 months, 3 weeks.

Who is making a better effort to be accurate?

Why should we be comparing their military records?

John H

Because you guys claim Kerry's makes him unqualified to hold office. That's
why.

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
The log book of the USS Gridely has been checked and it was in SEA for
five
weeks during Kerry's 12 month tour on the ship. So, Kerry did not serve 16
monts in country.

Just goes to prove that if enough people repeat the same lies over and
over,
pretty soon a great number of folks begin to believethem.

It appears that you are falling into the repeating of lies.

Excuse me!

The ship was at sea for five weeks out of a 52-week year. So he was five
weeks
short of 16 months.

So, let's test truth here. Rush Limbaugh, Hannity, Savage, and the rest of
your
cheerleaders all keep repeating "four months in Viet Nam!"

I said 16 months, as he was on duty on a ship that was patrolling the
coast of
Viet Nam for (most of) 12-months.

Right Wing Hate Radio Version: "Four months in Viet Nam"

Gould's Version: Sixteen months.

If we pick nits and subtract the five weeks the ship was at sea, we are
still
left with
14 months, 3 weeks.

Who is making a better effort to be accurate?



4 months, 14 months 24 months....who cares. What does it have to do with
Kerry being fit to be POTUS?

How about his 240 months in the senate? Why is this not more important?

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
The log book of the USS Gridely has been checked and it was in SEA for
five
weeks during Kerry's 12 month tour on the ship. So, Kerry did not serve
16
monts in country.

Just goes to prove that if enough people repeat the same lies over and
over,
pretty soon a great number of folks begin to believethem.

It appears that you are falling into the repeating of lies.

Excuse me!

I see that you don't know the difference between SEA and sea. SEA is South
East Asia and sea is water.

The ship was at sea for five weeks out of a 52-week year. So he was five
weeks
short of 16 months.

No, the ship was in SEA for five weeks of Kerry's 52 week tour.

So, let's test truth here. Rush Limbaugh, Hannity, Savage, and the rest of
your
cheerleaders all keep repeating "four months in Viet Nam!"

You need to refer to Kerry's military history posted on Kerry's website.

I said 16 months, as he was on duty on a ship that was patrolling the
coast of
Viet Nam for (most of) 12-months.

Ships in that era did not patrol off the coast of anything for 12 mounts.
They usual tour of duty was 6 months or 9 months. With a six month crusie
the ship would leave port in May and return in November. It takes a while to
get from Hawaii or San Diego to SEA and there are ports of call and other
activities that you are involved in which limited your time on station off
the coast of North and South Vietnam.

Right Wing Hate Radio Version: "Four months in Viet Nam"

Gould's Version: Sixteen months.

If we pick nits and subtract the five weeks the ship was at sea, we are
still
left with
14 months, 3 weeks.

Your ignorance is showing.


Who is making a better effort to be accurate?

Not you. You have are picking and choosing the informaiton you want to
present.

4 months, 14 months 24 months....who cares. What does it have to do with
Kerry being fit to be POTUS?

How about his 240 months in the senate? Why is this not more important?

Ask your strategists. They chose, at the highest levels, (I did hear that
Bush's attorney had to step down due to conflict of interest when he was
serving as legal advisor to the Swift Boat crew), to attack Kerry' record in
Viet Nam moreso than his record in the Senate.

We said military service made Kerry unfit? No. He's a liar. Has nothing to do
with how he served.


There's a difference between somebody *claiming* you're a liar and being one.

If he were a liar, that would make him particularly qualified to be POTUS,
based on the last few examples- the last two in particular.

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
4 months, 14 months 24 months....who cares. What does it have to do with
Kerry being fit to be POTUS?

How about his 240 months in the senate? Why is this not more important?

Ask your strategists.

*My* strategists?

They chose, at the highest levels, (I did hear that
Bush's attorney had to step down due to conflict of interest when he was
serving as legal advisor to the Swift Boat crew), to attack Kerry' record
in
Viet Nam moreso than his record in the Senate.

Kerry's strategists chose to make it the center of his campaign. The
opposition therefore has a right to question him on his claims.

You did not answer the question Gould. Why did Kerry choose not to focus on
his 240 months in the Senate? Certainly more relevant....wouldn't you
agree?

Gould,

You are missing the point, if Kerry endorses making his war hero record a
center point of his campaign he has to expect the opposition to take pot
shots at his record.

Kerry has not made his congressional record a center piece of his campaign,
because he does not believe the majority of American's would endorse his
voting record.

I have no problem with anything Kerry did in VN, but I do not believe he is
a war hero, he was a kid who took advantage of a loop hole (3 purple hearts)
to get out of VN. No big deal.




"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
4 months, 14 months 24 months....who cares. What does it have to do with
Kerry being fit to be POTUS?

How about his 240 months in the senate? Why is this not more important?

Ask your strategists. They chose, at the highest levels, (I did hear that
Bush's attorney had to step down due to conflict of interest when he was
serving as legal advisor to the Swift Boat crew), to attack Kerry' record
in
Viet Nam moreso than his record in the Senate.