In article ,
4-Boat wrote:
and have room, I'll generally let you come along with no obligation or
verification - why not? It doesn't cost me anything in that case.

Where it stops is when you want me to pay you to inspect the boat.


I've bought a few boats, 2 airplanes, a bunch of cars, and a dozen houses
and rentals. I've never had anyone bellyache about picking up the cost of
the inspect IF I bought. Let's all assume a reasonable man standard here.
A home inspect is around 25 cents/foot, a car inspect at autoclub is under
$100. My last boat checkout on a 25 Searay was $250. Big deal in the
scheme of $20K for the seller.

There is no broker in the world who will accept this, nor any larger boat
seller, and no sane small one either.

You'll always pay, whether he simply adds the $250 to the asking price (and
won't negotiate lower) or otherwise.

You will ALWAYS keep your deals cleaner if you simply pay for those expenses
out of pocket. You're going to pay anyway, and you can expect that anyone
who agrees to such a thing will mark up the actual cost in their "best and
final" offer price.

Thus, it always costs you more to have the seller pick it up. You want me
to pick it up if you buy it? Cool; I'll do that. My "lowest acceptable
price" on the boat just went up $500 (unknown to you), which means I made
100% profit on your demand, and you have no way to even know that this
happened to you.

You think you're getting the seller to "eat" the cost, when in fact not only
is he not eating the cost, he's making a tidy profit on your demand besides.

First rule of negotiating purchases is not to muddy the water by building in
fees and costs that can affect the seller's price.

If you spring this "you pick it up if I buy it" thing AFTER we negotiate a
price, your deal will immediately collapse with any honest and reputable
seller, because he will (correctly) perceive this as your attempt to
renegotiate the price after you've come to an agreement.

--
--
Karl Denninger ) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist
http://www.denninger.net My home on the net
http://scubaforum.org Your UNCENSORED place to talk about DIVING!
http://boaterforum.com Talk about Boating online - any topic, any time!
http://www.spamcuda.net SPAM FREE mailboxes - FREE FOR A LIMITED TIME!

I've bought a few boats, 2 airplanes, a bunch of cars, and a dozen houses
and rentals. I've never had anyone bellyache about picking up the cost
of
the inspect IF I bought. Let's all assume a reasonable man standard
here.
A home inspect is around 25 cents/foot, a car inspect at autoclub is
under
$100. My last boat checkout on a 25 Searay was $250. Big deal in the
scheme of $20K for the seller.

There is no broker in the world who will accept this, nor any larger boat
seller, and no sane small one either.

You'll always pay, whether he simply adds the $250 to the asking price
(and
won't negotiate lower) or otherwise.

You will ALWAYS keep your deals cleaner if you simply pay for those
expenses
out of pocket. You're going to pay anyway, and you can expect that anyone
who agrees to such a thing will mark up the actual cost in their "best and
final" offer price.

Thus, it always costs you more to have the seller pick it up. You want me
to pick it up if you buy it? Cool; I'll do that. My "lowest acceptable
price" on the boat just went up $500 (unknown to you), which means I made
100% profit on your demand, and you have no way to even know that this
happened to you.

You think you're getting the seller to "eat" the cost, when in fact not
only
is he not eating the cost, he's making a tidy profit on your demand
besides.

First rule of negotiating purchases is not to muddy the water by building
in
fees and costs that can affect the seller's price.

If you spring this "you pick it up if I buy it" thing AFTER we negotiate a
price, your deal will immediately collapse with any honest and reputable
seller, because he will (correctly) perceive this as your attempt to
renegotiate the price after you've come to an agreement.

You're free to negotiate anyway your want.

Whether you're a procurement negotiator or a labor negotiator, the BUYER
always negotiates ISSUE by ISSUE and the SELLER always attempts to negotiate
a package. As the BUYER, I'm going after one thing after another, the FIRST
being that I want you to commit to a less than 1% expenditure on an
inspection IF, AND ONLY IF, I buy the boat. If you won't you're
unreasonable. If you do, then you have some OWNERSHIP in the outcome,
especially if I let you have some voice in choosing a mutually agreed upon
inspector. Either way, I win or I walk away because you're too difficult to
work with, and I'd rather know that now than later. And by the way, I've
been in Fortune 200s my entire life, managing spends from $250M to $4B
annual. I've been around the block a few times in major negotiations as the
BUYER.

As I said, you can do what you want. That's fine, it's your style.

But I would still counsel the folks in the original note to just walk away
if they can't get some sort of recognition by the seller of the costs of the
survey. I simply don't want to deal with unreasonable sellers...why should
I?




--
--
Karl Denninger ) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights
Activist
http://www.denninger.net My home on the net
http://scubaforum.org Your UNCENSORED place to talk about DIVING!
http://boaterforum.com Talk about Boating online - any topic, any time!
http://www.spamcuda.net SPAM FREE mailboxes - FREE FOR A LIMITED TIME!

My opinion ... either party ... or even a third party (broker) ... with the
seller's might I suggest written and signed permission and proof of
insurance (suppose the boat turns turtle, goes up in flames, takes out 1/2
the pier etc while out on that test run). And the seller of course can just
say it's for sale as is ... take it or leave it.


"vze3j5ge" wrote in message
...
My husband and I are considering purchase of a used boat - currently out
of the water at our marina. We've spoken to a marine surveyor we might
hire who says that the engine can be tested to some extent on land but
that we really should put the boat in the water and check it out. Seems
reasonable - but my question is one about procedure. Who usually pays
for the marina to put boat in and take it out again in such a case -
buyer or seller?

Thanks for any help.

Elaine

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 13:00:03 GMT, "Bowgus" wrote:
My opinion ... either party ... or even a third party (broker) ... with the
seller's might I suggest written and signed permission and proof of
insurance (suppose the boat turns turtle, goes up in flames, takes out 1/2
the pier etc while out on that test run). And the seller of course can just
say it's for sale as is ... take it or leave it.

=================================================

A normal yacht brokerage purchase contract spells out the risks and
obligations related to the sea trial and survey. In all contracts
I've seen the seller is responsible for the cost of the sea trial, and
for providing an experienced operator (normally the owner,
professional captain or broker). The buyer is generally responsible
for all survey costs including haulout. During the sea trial the
buyer and surveyors are essentially along for the ride and share no
risk. A typical contract gives the buyer a certain number of days
after the survey and sea trial to either accept or reject the boat
(subject to price re-negotiation). If rejected for any reason, the
deposit money gets returned less any survey/haulout expenses. All of
this is oriented more towards "big boat" purchases of course, and
things are frequently a lot more casual with trailer boats where the
launch and haulout expenses are minimal. It's still a good idea to
have a formal written contract however, especially if there is deposit
money involved.

Thanks to all for your prompt, thoughtful and informative answers. We
really appreciate the help.

Elaine

It seems like you got an answer that was ... DO WHATEVER YOU CAN.

"vze3j5ge" wrote in message
...
Thanks to all for your prompt, thoughtful and informative answers. We
really appreciate the help.

Elaine