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Near Deaths on the Lower Gauley
The number one thing that I want to stress here is that - my friend and I had no business WHATSOEVER rafting on any part of the Gauley River.
I had rafted on the Ocoee ONCE before, with no mishaps, and no swimming - but I am NOT a rafter. My friend had NO whitewater rafting experience. And, like the rafting company ad said, this trip was even OK for novices........ And just FYI, I am a 52 year-old woman who regularly runs long distance competitive events. My friend is a 34 year-old woman who primarily leads an "inactive" life - but she is very strong - and has more strength to paddle than I do. However, I want to detail to you how we both almost lost our lives on the Lower Gauley this past Friday, August 6. Even though we had no business on this river in the first place, we both now question whether and how our near death experiences could have been prevented. But most of all, if we could prevent anyone else from experiencing what we would - that is our goal. For the sake of anonymity, I will call the rafting compnay ABC Rafting, and I will refer to two of the guides as Brad and Chuck. Could this have been prevented????? We arrived at ABC Rafting company well ahead of schedule. We registered, and soon Brad came over, told us he would be our guide, and he told us that we would soon be shown a safety video. The place were packed, and we were both excited our rafting trip! Well, the place soon cleared out, and there was only my friend and I left. Apparently, all of the other people had been signed up for one of the New River trip. Brad came back over and told us that we were waiting on a group of seven people who had mistakenly gone out with another group. They would soon be returning, and then we would be on our way. Finally, the group of seven returned. We were all led out to get our life jackets, paddle, and helmets. I asked Brad about the safety video, but he said that he would explain everything to us on the bus. Brad then told us that my friend and I would be in a boat with just our guide, Chuck. There would be only three of us. Shortly after that, Chuck came over and said that Charlene would be going with us. I guess that Charlene would act sort of as an assistant. So there was four of us that would be doing the Lower Gauley. I just casually remembered that when I had done the Ocoee, that it was a larger boat, and that there had been, I believe, a total of nine of us, including the guide. However, the only research that I had done prior to signing my friend and I up for this trip was - research on the rafting companies available. I should have done more research on whitewater rafting in general, and on the Gauley River in particular. This was my GRAVE mistake. At any rate, we were off on our adventure! And, Brad DID go over all of the preliminaries on the bus ride over. My friend and I both asked him to repeat some things over, and he did. We listened, asked questions, and had it all down...... Our "mishap" happened on Heaven Help Me/Us, right before Heaven's Gate. Up to this point, we had finally begun to paddle "together" (We were both sitting in front, as per the Chuck's instructions, and Charlene was sitting in the middle location, in front of Chuck - and we made it just fine across what were terrifying Class III, IV, and close to Class V waves. We were getting the hang of it. But, yet, NEITHER of us wanted to "go swimming". THAT thought terrified us both. We both realized, before we ever got to Heaven Help Me/Us - Heaven's Gate - that we were in over our heads. And the next several items are what now concern us both the most: 1.) Several comments had been made that - Chuck, our guide, had just gotten out from spending a year in prison. One of these comments was made before the bus even left for the take out, and another while we were stopped for lunch. Jokes??? I don't know. Brad did warn us that our guides would be making jokes all day, and that we should learn how to differentiate jokes from the truth. 2.) Both Chuck, our guide, and Charlene, his assistant - REPEATEDLY told us that they had no recent experience on the Gauley - that neither of them had even been on it in over a year. They BOTH kept repeating it - and acted like it was a "badge of honor". Chuck reassured us, however, that he knew how to "read" the water...... 3.) I looked back several times, right before a huge set of waves - and Chuck, our guide, was STANDING UP, yelling "Yoo hoo!" Please tell me - is STANDING UP OK? Is this customarily done by guides?? If so, then I won't feel so bad - but, quite frankly, it scared me absolutely to death. 4.) Chuck spent so much time talking and conversing with Charlene - that my friend and I had terrific problems determining what were paddling commands - and what were conversations with Charlene. THIS was not acceptable. We both listened very carefully to everything he said - and attempted to follow precisely what he said to do. But, it was hard....... None of would have mattered, probably, in the end, if both my friend and I had not come so close to death between Heaven Help Me/Us - Heaven's Gate..... Just FYI, I have researched it - and I believe that Chuck's skills in navigating those particular waves was CORRECT. He did navigate left of center. But as soon as we got left of center, both my friend and I were thrown completely out of the raft, into the air. I can't speak for her, but she did go UNDER a rock - and was rescued by another ABC Rafting boat rafting with us, guided by Brad. There are parts that she doesn't remember - just like me. But what happened to me, in the order that I remember them, is this: 1.) Being way in front of the boat, with our guide, Chuck, reaching out the T-grip end of the paddle to me. But I was being swept, rapidly, down stream. Trying to catch the T-Grip, but being too far away - and being swept away. I just knew that this was it. I was a complete goner. 2.) Then, a period that I don't remember - until I slammed into a rock. I, just for a second, remember Chuck in the boat, pointing for me to go away from the rock, to the left. (The rock was, going downstream, feet first, face up, on the left.) 3.) Then, a period that I don't remember. Just going under, trying to get back up. 4.) Finally, Chuck trying to grab me up by my life jacket into the boat - but I couldn't breath - as the life jacket had slid up - and was blocking all air. Finally, I, by whatever miracle, was placed back into the boat. I asked about my friend, and she had been rescused by Brad into his boat. I don't care what sort of errors, or misconduct, that I had thought that Chuck had done up to this point - HE SAVED MY LIFE. And he saved the life of someone who should never have been on that river to begin with. This man saved my life - absolutely - and I will forever be grateful to him. Needless to say, both my friend and I were terrified for the remainder of the trip. One thing that I do want to mention: My friend and I had asked Chuck, after lunch, but before Heaven Help Me/Us - Heaven's Gate, if anyone had ever died rafting on the Lower Gauley. Granted, this was an extremelly stupid question. It was stupid because I should have done the research before I ever signed my friend and I up for the trip. But, Chuck shouldn't have lied either. He told us that, NO, no one had ever died rafting on the Lower Gauley....... We remained completely terrified - and I even asked Chuck about the possibilities of getting a helicopter in there and getting out. Neither my friend or I wanted to continue the trip. But Chuck told us that this was not possible - that the only way to the end - was by means of the raft. OK. My friend and I had made a huge mistake by signing up for this trip. But I don't want other people to be allowed to make the same mistkae and live through the terror that we lived through. We both just constantly prayed all the way from Heaven Help Me/Us - Heaven's Gate - to the final last 3-1/2 miles of flat water. Neither of us have ever been through so much terror - and we would never want anyone else to experience this either, unnecessarily. Even though we shouldn't have been on that trip, do you think that the guide was OK??? Even after we were both back in the boat, and in definite trauma - he JUST KEPT TALKING about how this was his and Charlene's first time on this river in over a year!!! He did absolutely nothing to make us feel any better. It was almost as if he was trying to "push the envelope" as hard as he could. Does anyone have any comments about this scenario at all???? Many thanks in advance. |
Near Deaths on the Lower Gauley
Oh, and one other thing: Chuck told my friend and I that ALL FOUR OF US were thrown from the boat.
If that was the case, then you must know how long my friend were in danger - because the first time that I again saw Chuck - he was in the boat, holding the T-Grip out to me...... How did HE get back in the boat??? "Celia Oblinger" wrote in message ... The number one thing that I want to stress here is that - my friend and I had no business WHATSOEVER rafting on any part of the Gauley River. I had rafted on the Ocoee ONCE before, with no mishaps, and no swimming - but I am NOT a rafter. My friend had NO whitewater rafting experience. And, like the rafting company ad said, this trip was even OK for novices........ And just FYI, I am a 52 year-old woman who regularly runs long distance competitive events. My friend is a 34 year-old woman who primarily leads an "inactive" life - but she is very strong - and has more strength to paddle than I do. However, I want to detail to you how we both almost lost our lives on the Lower Gauley this past Friday, August 6. Even though we had no business on this river in the first place, we both now question whether and how our near death experiences could have been prevented. But most of all, if we could prevent anyone else from experiencing what we would - that is our goal. For the sake of anonymity, I will call the rafting compnay ABC Rafting, and I will refer to two of the guides as Brad and Chuck. Could this have been prevented????? We arrived at ABC Rafting company well ahead of schedule. We registered, and soon Brad came over, told us he would be our guide, and he told us that we would soon be shown a safety video. The place were packed, and we were both excited our rafting trip! Well, the place soon cleared out, and there was only my friend and I left. Apparently, all of the other people had been signed up for one of the New River trip. Brad came back over and told us that we were waiting on a group of seven people who had mistakenly gone out with another group. They would soon be returning, and then we would be on our way. Finally, the group of seven returned. We were all led out to get our life jackets, paddle, and helmets. I asked Brad about the safety video, but he said that he would explain everything to us on the bus. Brad then told us that my friend and I would be in a boat with just our guide, Chuck. There would be only three of us. Shortly after that, Chuck came over and said that Charlene would be going with us. I guess that Charlene would act sort of as an assistant. So there was four of us that would be doing the Lower Gauley. I just casually remembered that when I had done the Ocoee, that it was a larger boat, and that there had been, I believe, a total of nine of us, including the guide. However, the only research that I had done prior to signing my friend and I up for this trip was - research on the rafting companies available. I should have done more research on whitewater rafting in general, and on the Gauley River in particular. This was my GRAVE mistake. At any rate, we were off on our adventure! And, Brad DID go over all of the preliminaries on the bus ride over. My friend and I both asked him to repeat some things over, and he did. We listened, asked questions, and had it all down...... Our "mishap" happened on Heaven Help Me/Us, right before Heaven's Gate. Up to this point, we had finally begun to paddle "together" (We were both sitting in front, as per the Chuck's instructions, and Charlene was sitting in the middle location, in front of Chuck - and we made it just fine across what were terrifying Class III, IV, and close to Class V waves. We were getting the hang of it. But, yet, NEITHER of us wanted to "go swimming". THAT thought terrified us both. We both realized, before we ever got to Heaven Help Me/Us - Heaven's Gate - that we were in over our heads. And the next several items are what now concern us both the most: 1.) Several comments had been made that - Chuck, our guide, had just gotten out from spending a year in prison. One of these comments was made before the bus even left for the take out, and another while we were stopped for lunch. Jokes??? I don't know. Brad did warn us that our guides would be making jokes all day, and that we should learn how to differentiate jokes from the truth. 2.) Both Chuck, our guide, and Charlene, his assistant - REPEATEDLY told us that they had no recent experience on the Gauley - that neither of them had even been on it in over a year. They BOTH kept repeating it - and acted like it was a "badge of honor". Chuck reassured us, however, that he knew how to "read" the water...... 3.) I looked back several times, right before a huge set of waves - and Chuck, our guide, was STANDING UP, yelling "Yoo hoo!" Please tell me - is STANDING UP OK? Is this customarily done by guides?? If so, then I won't feel so bad - but, quite frankly, it scared me absolutely to death. 4.) Chuck spent so much time talking and conversing with Charlene - that my friend and I had terrific problems determining what were paddling commands - and what were conversations with Charlene. THIS was not acceptable. We both listened very carefully to everything he said - and attempted to follow precisely what he said to do. But, it was hard....... None of would have mattered, probably, in the end, if both my friend and I had not come so close to death between Heaven Help Me/Us - Heaven's Gate..... Just FYI, I have researched it - and I believe that Chuck's skills in navigating those particular waves was CORRECT. He did navigate left of center. But as soon as we got left of center, both my friend and I were thrown completely out of the raft, into the air. I can't speak for her, but she did go UNDER a rock - and was rescued by another ABC Rafting boat rafting with us, guided by Brad. There are parts that she doesn't remember - just like me. But what happened to me, in the order that I remember them, is this: 1.) Being way in front of the boat, with our guide, Chuck, reaching out the T-grip end of the paddle to me. But I was being swept, rapidly, down stream. Trying to catch the T-Grip, but being too far away - and being swept away. I just knew that this was it. I was a complete goner. 2.) Then, a period that I don't remember - until I slammed into a rock. I, just for a second, remember Chuck in the boat, pointing for me to go away from the rock, to the left. (The rock was, going downstream, feet first, face up, on the left.) 3.) Then, a period that I don't remember. Just going under, trying to get back up. 4.) Finally, Chuck trying to grab me up by my life jacket into the boat - but I couldn't breath - as the life jacket had slid up - and was blocking all air. Finally, I, by whatever miracle, was placed back into the boat. I asked about my friend, and she had been rescused by Brad into his boat. I don't care what sort of errors, or misconduct, that I had thought that Chuck had done up to this point - HE SAVED MY LIFE. And he saved the life of someone who should never have been on that river to begin with. This man saved my life - absolutely - and I will forever be grateful to him. Needless to say, both my friend and I were terrified for the remainder of the trip. One thing that I do want to mention: My friend and I had asked Chuck, after lunch, but before Heaven Help Me/Us - Heaven's Gate, if anyone had ever died rafting on the Lower Gauley. Granted, this was an extremelly stupid question. It was stupid because I should have done the research before I ever signed my friend and I up for the trip. But, Chuck shouldn't have lied either. He told us that, NO, no one had ever died rafting on the Lower Gauley....... We remained completely terrified - and I even asked Chuck about the possibilities of getting a helicopter in there and getting out. Neither my friend or I wanted to continue the trip. But Chuck told us that this was not possible - that the only way to the end - was by means of the raft. OK. My friend and I had made a huge mistake by signing up for this trip. But I don't want other people to be allowed to make the same mistkae and live through the terror that we lived through. We both just constantly prayed all the way from Heaven Help Me/Us - Heaven's Gate - to the final last 3-1/2 miles of flat water. Neither of us have ever been through so much terror - and we would never want anyone else to experience this either, unnecessarily. Even though we shouldn't have been on that trip, do you think that the guide was OK??? Even after we were both back in the boat, and in definite trauma - he JUST KEPT TALKING about how this was his and Charlene's first time on this river in over a year!!! He did absolutely nothing to make us feel any better. It was almost as if he was trying to "push the envelope" as hard as he could. Does anyone have any comments about this scenario at all???? Many thanks in advance. |
Near Deaths on the Lower Gauley
Ahhh, the thrill of being ejected from a raft on the Lower Gauley! Same
thing happened to me, once upon a time. Sounds like a pretty typical rafting trip to me ;-) |
Near Deaths on the Lower Gauley
sounds about right ,our guide cleared the boat,because none of our group had
swam in two days of paddling. |
Near Deaths on the Lower Gauley
That's why I paddle whitewater, in a canoe.
I wish I were 52...... again. |
Near Deaths on the Lower Gauley
Your raft guides didn't sound like they were as professional as they guides
that I rafted the Upper Gauley with on two occasions, but it sounds like a typical bad swim to me that all rafters should consider. It ain't no Carowinds ride. Its a choice. Sorry your trip turned out so badly. Go with a recommended raft company thats known for service. There are a bunch of them. Research a little bit more next time maybe? |
Near Deaths on the Lower Gauley
OK,
1) It sounds like a pretty normal swim in whitewater except that 2) Your PFD wasn't fitted correctly. IT SHOULD NOT RIDE UP SIGNIFICANTLY. The guides should have checked before launch that your PFD was on and adjusted correctly. He may have been correct in that no RAFTERS have died on the lower Gauley. However, BOATERS have died on the lower Gauley. A couple of years ago ('99), a kayaker flipped right at the put-in and got washed into the boulder sieve at Koontz's Flume and, despite heroic efforts of bystanders, died. There was also a squirt boater who got pinned and died at Stairstep in '86 (actually, I'm surprised that the AW Accident database only has 3 events for the lower Gauley... better than I expected. Of course, it isn't that difficult a river and WV mandates a guide in every boat.) There are a lot of undercut rocks on the Gauley - upper and lower. Unless the river was in flood, there was no Class V anything on the river. If it was in flood, you had no business being there, any of you. This river is Class IV best case. It is possible that the boat got cleaned of people intentionally. It happens on some rivers. I would hope that it would never happen on the Gauley... just too many undercut rocks to do this with any kind of safety. Ted |
Near Deaths on the Lower Gauley
Celia Oblinger wrote:
Oh, and one other thing: Chuck told my friend and I that ALL FOUR OF US were thrown from the boat. If that was the case, then you must know how long my friend were in danger - because the first time that I again saw Chuck - he was in the boat, holding the T-Grip out to me...... How did HE get back in the boat??? Experienced rafters, a group in which most guides are included, can climb back into a raft by grabbing onto the side handles or rope-line, kicking the feet for acceleration, and doing a pull-up. When a raft flips upside-down, the situation is similar but worse. Before I answer all your questions, if someone else doesn't answer them to your satisfaction, let me ask you for more details. During the ABC Company's safety talk, did they mention what to do if you fell out of the raft? Did they give you pointers in how to stay in the raft by putting weight on your feet, as if you're skiing, or holding onto some handle? |
Near Deaths on the Lower Gauley
I wouldn't call this a "near death" unless you were given CPR.
It sounds like just a bad swim for you, and a terribly bad swim for your friend, who went under a rock. Jokes are supposed to be funny. Are prison jokes considered funnier in WV than elsewhere? Commercial passengers who "swim" or experience "carnage" are almost twice as likely to return, various studies indicate. Many companies give guests a "thrill" by maneuvering them into the biggest waves. However guides should be sensitive to what their guests want, and it can't hurt to ask. Many mishaps occur right after lunch. Usually I wait to eat until the big rapids are behind me. Did you consider refusing to continue in that same boat configuration after lunch? It's always best when guides know the river well, especially on rivers with many hazards (e.g. undercut rocks). I don't know the Gauley, but standing up above a rapid with rock strainers is a bad idea! It could be that his standing up rocked the boat enough to dump you and your friend out. It could also be that looking back at him interrupted your concentration and led to your falling out. Usually paddle boats have more than two people, and you made it seem like Charlene was on the same side as Chuck. That's odd. Hope you didn't tip your guide! |
Near Deaths on the Lower Gauley
No, from everyone else's comments, I suppose that it wasn't what anyone
other than me would call "near death". But for me, it was close enough. As for Chuck giving his guests what they wanted, there were only two guests, me and my friend. And then was, of course, Charlene - who did, yes, sit on the same side as Chuck. So we actually had three on one side (the left side), and me, and only me, on the right side. You are insightful - because our swimming was shortly after lunch. But it wouldn't have done any good to have eaten earlier or later - as we started our with a Class V, and ended with a Class V. They were all pretty much evenly spaced out. When I was supposed to be paddling, the last thing that I would have been doing was looking back. No, I looked back at other times. And I don't really think that he was standing when we all went swimming. But my friend seems to think that he actually did it for fun...... The Lower Gauley has LOTS of huge, undercut rocks - and lots of seives. As far as I am concerned, there is NO good place to "go swimming". And, no, I didn't tip him! I really appreciated your comments, Bill - as well as those of everyone else - as they have given me a clearer understanding of what I was getting in to. It is my own fault for not finding out all of this stuff BEFORE I went - EXPECIALLY the raft configuration of the trip. A small boat, on Class V waves, with four people - three on the left, and me on the right - I believe is what did it. If we had been in a larger boat with more people, I don't believe that it would have happened. Thanks again for taking the time to comment - I really do appreciate it! |
Near Deaths on the Lower Gauley
You are absolutely right about my PFD. After I got back on the boat - I
insisted that it be refitted correctly. Oh, I have checked since I have been home - and there have been multiple deaths of RAFTERS on the Lower Gauley over the years. A lot of kayakers, too. But definitely a number of rafters..... Ted, I really appreciate your and everyone else's comments - they are helping to learn now all of the things that I should have made it my business to know BEFORE I signed on for the trip. Thanks so much! "Ted Marz" wrote in message ... OK, 1) It sounds like a pretty normal swim in whitewater except that 2) Your PFD wasn't fitted correctly. IT SHOULD NOT RIDE UP SIGNIFICANTLY. The guides should have checked before launch that your PFD was on and adjusted correctly. He may have been correct in that no RAFTERS have died on the lower Gauley. However, BOATERS have died on the lower Gauley. A couple of years ago ('99), a kayaker flipped right at the put-in and got washed into the boulder sieve at Koontz's Flume and, despite heroic efforts of bystanders, died. There was also a squirt boater who got pinned and died at Stairstep in '86 (actually, I'm surprised that the AW Accident database only has 3 events for the lower Gauley... better than I expected. Of course, it isn't that difficult a river and WV mandates a guide in every boat.) There are a lot of undercut rocks on the Gauley - upper and lower. Unless the river was in flood, there was no Class V anything on the river. If it was in flood, you had no business being there, any of you. This river is Class IV best case. It is possible that the boat got cleaned of people intentionally. It happens on some rivers. I would hope that it would never happen on the Gauley... just too many undercut rocks to do this with any kind of safety. Ted |
Near Deaths on the Lower Gauley
Yes, the rafting company gave us good instructions on how to place our feet
to stay in the raft, and, I knew this, too, from having previously done Ocoee. But they never mentioned about holding on to a handle or other similar device.... I did anyway, when I could. And, they did tell us what to do if we fell out of the raft. And, actually, what they had told us to do - really helped my girlfriend with her situation. However, the first that I remember, after flying out of the raft, was being on my stomach, facing Chuck (in the boat) as he was trying to extend the T-Grip end of a paddle to me. This, on my part, was TOTALLY wrong. I should have been on my back, feet first, going downstream - NOT face down swimming UPstream to try to get to Chuck's paddle. That's a good explanation for how he got back in the boat - and I thank you for giving it. As I said earlier, no matter what else may or may not have happened, Chuck did save my life - and I am now still alive to tell about it. But, at the time, I really did feel as though I was spending my last moments..... But I have decided that I don't want to die among rocks in a river - all for the thrill of whitewater waves (And they ARE thrilling - when all is going as it should!). Three years ago, I spent a week and a half trekking from 8000 ft. to 18000 ft. - to Mt. Everest Base Camp from Lukla. At the time, it was the hardest thing that I have ever done. Not so anymore. The Lower Gauley now has that definite distinction. Thanks to everyone for all of this comments and help! "Bill Tuthill" wrote in message ... Celia Oblinger wrote: Oh, and one other thing: Chuck told my friend and I that ALL FOUR OF US were thrown from the boat. If that was the case, then you must know how long my friend were in danger - because the first time that I again saw Chuck - he was in the boat, holding the T-Grip out to me...... How did HE get back in the boat??? Experienced rafters, a group in which most guides are included, can climb back into a raft by grabbing onto the side handles or rope-line, kicking the feet for acceleration, and doing a pull-up. When a raft flips upside-down, the situation is similar but worse. Before I answer all your questions, if someone else doesn't answer them to your satisfaction, let me ask you for more details. During the ABC Company's safety talk, did they mention what to do if you fell out of the raft? Did they give you pointers in how to stay in the raft by putting weight on your feet, as if you're skiing, or holding onto some handle? |
Near Deaths on the Lower Gauley
I'm learning, apparently, that what I experienced was "pretty normal".
I guess it would be normal to real whitewater rafters - but that, I am not. It scared me to totally near death. I am not one of those who will return for more heightened thrills, or even a repeat of the ones that I experienced on the Lower Gauley. But it WAS an experience that I will NEVER forget! Thanks for your comments! "Felsenmeer" wrote in message ... Ahhh, the thrill of being ejected from a raft on the Lower Gauley! Same thing happened to me, once upon a time. Sounds like a pretty typical rafting trip to me ;-) |
Near Deaths on the Lower Gauley
I would have no earthly idea of how to paddle a canoe through those
rapids....... "Paddlec1" wrote in message ... That's why I paddle whitewater, in a canoe. I wish I were 52...... again. |
Near Deaths on the Lower Gauley
You are absolutely right - it was choice made by me. And I take full
responsibility for not doing the needed research before I signed on to the trip. And that it is why I am so hesitant to place blame on our guide. And that is why I have asked the questions of this group that I have. And I have learned that other than the configuration of the small boat, with only 4 people, with three on the left, and me on the right - that there wasn't anything else done incorrectly. For any possible future rafting trips, I would definitely insist on a larger boat, with more people. Thanks for your comments! "Baker2150" wrote in message ... Your raft guides didn't sound like they were as professional as they guides that I rafted the Upper Gauley with on two occasions, but it sounds like a typical bad swim to me that all rafters should consider. It ain't no Carowinds ride. Its a choice. Sorry your trip turned out so badly. Go with a recommended raft company thats known for service. There are a bunch of them. Research a little bit more next time maybe? |
Near Deaths on the Lower Gauley
Celia,
About the class V's - understand that raft guides and companies typically inflate the actual difficulty of a rapid by one class. If your guide tells you it's a class V it's probably really a IV, and a IV really a III. They are selling an experience, an adventure, and having their customers memories imprinted with the "Class V" rapid they ran is just business as usual. Deceptive, but still not unusual. |
Near Deaths on the Lower Gauley
Mike McCrea wrote:
Celia, About the class V's - understand that raft guides and companies typically inflate the actual difficulty of a rapid by one class. If your guide tells you it's a class V it's probably really a IV, and a IV really a III. They are selling an experience, an adventure, and having their customers memories imprinted with the "Class V" rapid they ran is just business as usual. Deceptive, but still not unusual. That's a load of crap! How many rafts have you guided? JAM |
Near Deaths on the Lower Gauley
J. A. M. wrote: Mike McCrea wrote: Celia, About the class V's - understand that raft guides and companies typically inflate the actual difficulty of a rapid by one class. If your guide tells you it's a class V it's probably really a IV, and a IV really a III. They are selling an experience, an adventure, and having their customers memories imprinted with the "Class V" rapid they ran is just business as usual. Deceptive, but still not unusual. That's a load of crap! How many rafts have you guided? Talking about a load of carp: how many times did you paddle or raft the Lower Gauley and encounter class V rapids? I know more than a few rivers on both sides of the Altantic where the rafting companies seem to have found some mysterious class V rapids that are yet to be found or paddled by any other paddler, including locals with hundreds of runs below their belt. I've also overheard more than a few guides giving this kind of a "class so and so" speech to their customers, even though they were talking about runs that were at least one class easier than what they made them seem to be. If you want to deny that those practises are pretty common among raft guides, go ahead... just don't expect experienced paddlers to take you very serious. -- Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe ---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.--- http://wilko.webzone.ru/ |
Near Deaths on the Lower Gauley
Wilko wrote:
J. A. M. wrote: Mike McCrea wrote: Celia, About the class V's - understand that raft guides and companies typically inflate the actual difficulty of a rapid by one class. If your guide tells you it's a class V it's probably really a IV, and a IV really a III. They are selling an experience, an adventure, and having their customers memories imprinted with the "Class V" rapid they ran is just business as usual. Deceptive, but still not unusual. That's a load of crap! How many rafts have you guided? Talking about a load of carp: how many times did you paddle or raft the Lower Gauley and encounter class V rapids? I know more than a few rivers on both sides of the Altantic where the rafting companies seem to have found some mysterious class V rapids that are yet to be found or paddled by any other paddler, including locals with hundreds of runs below their belt. I've also overheard more than a few guides giving this kind of a "class so and so" speech to their customers, even though they were talking about runs that were at least one class easier than what they made them seem to be. If you want to deny that those practises are pretty common among raft guides, go ahead... just don't expect experienced paddlers to take you very serious. -- Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe ---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.--- http://wilko.webzone.ru/ The Lower Gauley is class 4. Unless you've been stuffed under one of the rocks or run over by a raft. Then it's class 6! Heavens Gate is not that hard to run. It's easier than Upper Mash or Pure Screaming Hell. The left gate is under cut but you have to get close to it for maximum effect. A large rock, just down stream on the left is also a danger. The face of it is flat, some say concave, and it splits the current. I've seen swimmers held against it for several seconds before washing out. JAM |
Near Deaths on the Lower Gauley
I stand corrected Jimbob; everyone knows a raft guide would never
exaggerate and I'm sure Celia's trip really "started out with a Class V, and ended with a Class V. They were all pretty much evenly spaced out." |
Near Deaths on the Lower Gauley
Paddling is a whole lot of fun, if you can stay in control (yeah, I know, you
paid someone to take care of that). Just thought I'd recommed that you try it again on easier water, and maybe move up to bigger water later if that suits you. Good luck. Dennis |
Near Deaths on the Lower Gauley
sounds like pretty normal to me - swimming from a raft isn't all that
much fun - i've had my share of swims in the last year (not when I was captaining the raft - I won't say guiding as I'm not an official guide). I know both my husband (who is yikes an official wva guide and I) stand occasionally in the raft - It gives you a better line of vision when approaching a rapid. The Gauley doesn't "run" or "release" all the time - there is a "Gauley Season" with occasional releases or runs after rainfall other times of years - I could see how a guide who was coming down for the fall season might not have run it since last year. Taking trainees along is common practice - I couldn't tell from your description if you were talking about a trainee or a girlfriend... btw - I'm 46 and my husband is 50 - and lots of boaters are alot older - but it may be that another sport is more comfortable for you. sheila |
Near Deaths on the Lower Gauley
I'm learning, apparently, that what I experienced was "pretty normal".
I guess it would be normal to real whitewater rafters - but that, I am not. It scared me to totally near death. I am not one of those who will return for more heightened thrills, or even a repeat of the ones that I experienced on the Lower Gauley. But it WAS an experience that I will NEVER forget! Thanks for your comments! Personally, I think you should confront your fears, to use a little psychobabble :-) Do it again! I bet you'll have a blast. In fact, you might even be tempted to try the UPPER Gauley :-) You'll see- whitewater is addictive!!! |
Near Deaths on the Lower Gauley
In message , Mike
McCrea writes I stand corrected Jimbob; everyone knows a raft guide would never exaggerate and I'm sure Celia's trip really "started out with a Class V, and ended with a Class V. They were all pretty much evenly spaced out." It would appear that Celia's trip was class VI but only as she perceived it -- Dave Manby Details of the Coruh river and my book "Many Rivers To Run" at http://www.dmanby.demon.co.uk |
Near Deaths on the Lower Gauley
In message , chapelle
writes sounds like pretty normal to me - swimming from a raft isn't all that much fun - i've had my share of swims in the last year (not when I was captaining the raft - I won't say guiding as I'm not an official guide). Snipped Old Donald RIP used to say often after another particularly horrendous swim that I had watched "Gosh that was exciting ! sometimes I think that swimming the rapids is more exciting than paddling them you should try it Dave!" I declined as often as I could! -- Dave Manby Details of the Coruh river and my book "Many Rivers To Run" at http://www.dmanby.demon.co.uk |
Near Deaths on the Lower Gauley
About the class V's - understand that raft guides and companies typically inflate the actual difficulty of a rapid by one class. If your guide tells you it's a class V it's probably really a IV, and a IV really a III. They are selling an experience, an adventure, and having their customers memories imprinted with the "Class V" rapid they ran is just business as usual. Deceptive, but still not unusual. That's a load of crap! How many rafts have you guided? Totally normal on the Arkansas. Royal Gorge...Class V...bull (except high water, and then it's shut down to commercial rafting). |
Near Deaths on the Lower Gauley
Celia Oblinger wrote:
snip description of rafting trip Does anyone have any comments about this scenario at all???? Your experience sounds very similar to my first [and decidedly *last*] rafting trip in West Virginia. A marginal guide with absolutely no regard for the safety of his crew, the most cursory safety training, and no forewarning that half of the rafts dump at the very first rapid. (I was informed about this last piece of info *after* the trip, not before.) I have no problem with experinenced boaters with the proper training and experience shooting class V water. But rafts full of clueless tourists don't belong there. (and neither do I) The problem with the commercial rafting operations is that they treat the tourists like so many sacks of potatoes. If the sacks bounce out of the rafts, the guide rounds them up and hopes he can find them all and that they're not too damaged. And if the sack gets hurt, well it's the sack's fault not the guide's. What's amazing is that they don't kill more people than they do. Anyway, you can read my account of the trip (three years ago! wow.) at http://www.google.com/groups?UTF-8&c2coff=1&selm=3B253A71.59F936A9%40mailandnews.co m -- //-Walt // // |
Near Deaths on the Lower Gauley
J. A. M. wrote:
Wilko wrote: J. A. M. wrote: The Lower Gauley is class 4. Unless you've been stuffed under one of the rocks or run over by a raft. Then it's class 6! The international difficulty rating has nothing to do with consequences, but all with how difficult it is to stay on your line, because of the width of the line, the manouvering required because of holes, waves, rocks, drops, speed of current etc.. Getting stuffed under a rock says nothing about how difficult it is to run the lines. Calling consequences a certain class makes no sense. Strainers can kill, does that make running over a fallen tree on an almost fla****er river it suddenly class VI? As for your class IV rating for the entire lower Gauley, I think only a few of the rapids on the lower Gauley deserve that rating. But where does that leave the rafting guides' claims of it being class V? Heavens Gate is not that hard to run. It's easier than Upper Mash or Pure Screaming Hell. The left gate is under cut but you have to get close to it for maximum effect. A large rock, just down stream on the left is also a danger. The face of it is flat, some say concave, and it splits the current. I've seen swimmers held against it for several seconds before washing out. Just FYI: I've run the Gauley a couple of times, the upper more than the lower, but still, often enough to know what I'm talking about. -- Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe ---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.--- http://wilko.webzone.ru/ |
Near Deaths on the Lower Gauley
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Near Deaths on the Lower Gauley
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Near Deaths on the Lower Gauley
On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 23:23:21 +0200, Wilko wrote:
The international difficulty rating has nothing to do with consequences, but all with how difficult it is to stay on your line, because of the width of the line, the manouvering required because of holes, waves, rocks, drops, speed of current etc.. Hmmm according to the international scale of river difficulty (I found the following on the americanwhitewater.org site) class I - "... Risk to swimmers is slight; self-rescue is easy." class II - "... Swimers are seldom injured and group assistance, while helpful, is seldom needed. ..." class III - "... Injuries while swimming are rare; self-rescue is usually easy but group assistance may be required to avoid long swims. ..." class IV - "... Risk of injury to swimmers is moderate to high, and water conditions may make self-rescue difficult. group assistance for rescue is often essential but requires practiced skills. ..." class V - "... swims are dangerous, and rescue is often difficult even for experts. ..." class VI - " ... The consequences of errors are very severe and rescue may be impossible. ..." So each of the classes does define what the consequences are Cheyenne |
Near Deaths on the Lower Gauley
Cheyenne Wills wrote: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 23:23:21 +0200, Wilko wrote: The international difficulty rating has nothing to do with consequences, but all with how difficult it is to stay on your line, because of the width of the line, the manouvering required because of holes, waves, rocks, drops, speed of current etc.. Hmmm according to the international scale of river difficulty (I found the following on the americanwhitewater.org site) Exactly, you got the *American Whitewater* version of the classes, which for some bizarre reason includes consequences, not the international scale of *difficulty* rating. Apples and oranges. Difficulty and consequences have little do to with eachother, and I would understand it if they would add a seperate factor for consequences (maybe another one for remoteness etc., a al Corran style), but that would make the scale even more difficult to use. How do you rate consequences, anyway? I'm not a big fan of ratings, thinking that they should be nothing more than guidelines for people wanting to take a first trip down something when having done similarly rated rapids before. The real decision should be made on the spot, including the feelings and atmosphere of the moment. That decision making process should include the perceived consequences, not some bizarre combined rating. Is something a class IV because of a class I line with class VI consequences? What are class VI consequences exactly? Polluting the ratings makes them even less useful and more subjective, especially when you look at the regional differences already in effect (western U.S., eastern U.S., etc.). -- Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe ---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.--- http://wilko.webzone.ru/ |
Near Deaths on the Lower Gauley
Here is an alternative guide to grades.
class I - "... Risk to swimmers is slight; self-rescue is easy." Take the Mother-in-law class II - "... Swimers are seldom injured and group assistance, while helpful, is seldom needed. ..." Take the Girlfriend class III - "... Injuries while swimming are rare; self-rescue is usually easy but group assistance may be required to avoid long swims. ..." Take the Wife class IV - "... Risk of injury to swimmers is moderate to high, and water conditions may make self-rescue difficult. group assistance for rescue is often essential but requires practiced skills. ..." Take the Mistress class V - "... swims are dangerous, and rescue is often difficult even for experts. ..." Take the Photographs class VI - " ... The consequences of errors are very severe and rescue may be impossible. ..." Take the Mother-in-law -- Dave Manby Details of the Coruh river and my book "Many Rivers To Run" at http://www.dmanby.demon.co.uk |
Near Deaths on the Lower Gauley
Larry Cable wrote:
How about the problem being that the average raft customer treats the river as an amusement park ride and doesn't pay any attention to safety or instructions. No argument there. The only thing I'd add is that the rafting companies market it like it's an amusement park ride, so I can see where the customers get that idea. -- //-Walt // // http://cagle.slate.msn.com/working/040514/matson.gif |
Near Deaths on the Lower Gauley
Walt wrote:
Larry Cable wrote: How about the problem being that the average raft customer treats the river as an amusement park ride and doesn't pay any attention to safety or instructions. No argument there. The only thing I'd add is that the rafting companies market it like it's an amusement park ride, so I can see where the customers get that idea. -- //-Walt // // http://cagle.slate.msn.com/working/040514/matson.gif Another load of crap. How many safety talk-ups have you given? JAM |
Near Deaths on the Lower Gauley
So, what I have seen, and read, is that experienced river runners tend to down grade a river. I don't know where you live (i.e. what rivers you are familiar with). But someone who has just run the Royal Gorge (class IV, but guides call it class V [at least to customers]) successfully for the first time is NOT ready for Gore Canyon (real class V). |
Near Deaths on the Lower Gauley
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Near Deaths on the Lower Gauley
Larry Cable wrote:
J. A. M." Typed in Message-ID: References: Another load of crap. How many safety talk-ups have you given? JAM who are you asking? I've pushed rubber around since the 70's, teach kayaking several times a year and I'm a SWR instructor, so I've given one or two in my time. Walt is correct, raft trips are often marketed as an amusement park ride. Just go down to the Ocoee and see how they run the business there. SYOTR Larry C. I've been pushing rubber for 15 years and I have never heard anyone promote the trip as an amusement park ride. In fact just the opposite is true. The dangers and the level of physical activity required are spelled out in great detail. To tell the truth, I do talk up a rapid before I run it. I give the same talk up above Big Nasty at 2 feet and I do a 5 1/2 feet. Stay left!, don't run the hole! Then I take them right down the middle (2') into the hole. My crew is so happy that they made it that they don't even know they aren't having fun. JAM |
Near Deaths on the Lower Gauley
"J. A. M." wrote:
I've been pushing rubber for 15 years and I have never heard anyone promote the trip as an amusement park ride. In fact just the opposite is true. The dangers and the level of physical activity required are spelled out in great detail. I sincerely wish that what you are saying were true. Maybe the standards are higher in your neck of the woods. Where do you paddle? -- //-Walt // // http://cagle.slate.msn.com/working/040514/matson.gif |
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