Thanks to all who tried to provide insight into composite stringer grids.

I came away with the following:

Wood or no wood, how it's done matters most. To that end, I called the factory
to arrange for a tour of the production process; l was told it is only done
through the dealer, which is too bad, because that means I may have to engage
in negotation before I've actually decided to purchase. More on that in a bit.

The boat is question is the Fishmaster model 1960 sold by Travis, built by
Dynasty. Also comes in slightly different trim as a Polar 1910 model.

While Travis branded boats don't have a great reputation, there is reason for
optimism. I have seen continuous improvement on the overall quality of this
model and others in the model lineup over several years. Viewed from the
outside, the boat itself appears well constructed, especially in it's price
class. The hardware quality and overall finish are quite good, and the
features are well thought out.

Travis is a bit of a puzzle. They are struggling, and Tracker may be
positioning itself for a takeover via a series of loans that give Tracker
increasing control of Travis. I don't have a problem with Tracker, but Travis'
instability is troubling from a service and resale perspective. There is only
one store in Georgia, and it is not hard to imagine it closing.

This particular model comes rigged with the Suzuki 140 four stroke, and the 150
EFI two stroke is also available. I have no problem owning either motor. The
140 is tempting for the user friendliness, but I suspect the 150 will actually
outperform the 140 by more than the listed 10 hp. Suzuki is well represented
in north Georgia, with four dealers besides Travis.

There are other hurdles to tackle, like the boat space in my driveway, already
challenged by my bass boat's 84" of beam. The 1960 is 102". And then there is
my V6 Sport Trac towing around 3000+ pounds instead of the current 2000 pounds
I currently tow. But those are other stories for another post, another time.

And finally, I want to offer this observation: It would have been so easy for
the previous thread to have been strictly about the original question, or
reasonable tangents to the issue at hand, without the personal attacks that now
represent the majority of interaction in this group. Wouldn't that be nice?


-- Rich Stern
www.nitroowners.com - The Nitro and Tracker Owners Web Site
www.mypontoon.com - The Pontoon Boat Web Site
www.fishingreportdatabase.com - The Fishing Report Database
www.mysporttrac.com - The Sport Trac Web Site

Polar has had some *very severe* quality and assembly issues.




Is this a recent or past observation? Do you have an example? Polar makes a
wide range of boats, in plants owned by different organizations.

If the boats are rolling out of the Vinemont, AL plant that makes the Travis
bay models, I haven't seen a hint of the problems. Evidence is to the
contrary.

I'm not looking to bury my head in the sand. I'd rather know facts.


-- Rich Stern
www.nitroowners.com - The Nitro and Tracker Owners Web Site
www.mypontoon.com - The Pontoon Boat Web Site
www.fishingreportdatabase.com - The Fishing Report Database
www.mysporttrac.com - The Sport Trac Web Site

Rich Stern wrote:


Polar has had some *very severe* quality and assembly issues.




Is this a recent or past observation? Do you have an example? Polar makes a
wide range of boats, in plants owned by different organizations.

The polar skiffs that are built to compete with the carolina skiffs have
suffered from hull cracks



--
Email sent to is never read.

Rich Stern wrote:
Thanks to all who tried to provide insight into composite stringer grids.

I came away with the following:

Wood or no wood, how it's done matters most. To that end, I called the factory
to arrange for a tour of the production process; l was told it is only done
through the dealer, which is too bad, because that means I may have to engage
in negotation before I've actually decided to purchase. More on that in a bit.

The boat is question is the Fishmaster model 1960 sold by Travis, built by
Dynasty. Also comes in slightly different trim as a Polar 1910 model.

While Travis branded boats don't have a great reputation, there is reason for
optimism. I have seen continuous improvement on the overall quality of this
model and others in the model lineup over several years. Viewed from the
outside, the boat itself appears well constructed, especially in it's price
class. The hardware quality and overall finish are quite good, and the
features are well thought out.

Travis is a bit of a puzzle. They are struggling, and Tracker may be
positioning itself for a takeover via a series of loans that give Tracker
increasing control of Travis. I don't have a problem with Tracker, but Travis'
instability is troubling from a service and resale perspective. There is only
one store in Georgia, and it is not hard to imagine it closing.

This particular model comes rigged with the Suzuki 140 four stroke, and the 150
EFI two stroke is also available. I have no problem owning either motor. The
140 is tempting for the user friendliness, but I suspect the 150 will actually
outperform the 140 by more than the listed 10 hp. Suzuki is well represented
in north Georgia, with four dealers besides Travis.

There are other hurdles to tackle, like the boat space in my driveway, already
challenged by my bass boat's 84" of beam. The 1960 is 102". And then there is
my V6 Sport Trac towing around 3000+ pounds instead of the current 2000 pounds
I currently tow. But those are other stories for another post, another time.

And finally, I want to offer this observation: It would have been so easy for
the previous thread to have been strictly about the original question, or
reasonable tangents to the issue at hand, without the personal attacks that now
represent the majority of interaction in this group. Wouldn't that be nice?

Nice idea Rich but not likely it's just how it is:-) but no matter we
get there in the end:-)

As I recall you subscribe to "lets take a vote" theory for resolving
technical matters, which as demonstrated over the years here is risky
(ask anyone who bought a ficht or optimax, even if it didn't fail they
still took a bath).

(i) Fibreglass is not water proof, it leaks like a sieve. The only thing
that stops it easily passing water is whatever is covering it, gelcoat,
flowcoat, adhesive (probond?) to stick the stringers to the skin or
whatever.

(ii) The stringer cores will get wet, maybe not today but they "will"
get wet.

(iii) Empty hollow stringers are OK but need to be thick enough that
they end up heavier & more expensive.

(iv) Foam cored stringers are OK so long as the correct foam core is
used, so in writing (email?) get confirmation of what the core material
is, then get onto any fibreglass materials supplier & run it past them,
they'll quickly tell you if it's closed cell water tolerant or no, if
it's a no?? well .....

(v) Going to the factory is not going to help you much, it's no
guarantee of anything, workmanship is workmanship so even if you "think"
the stringers are being glassed in right it's not that simple, even the
time lapsed between the hull being laminated & the stringers going in is
important as to how it's done. So pretty much the builder is reputable &
know what they're doing or they're not, they & their dealers all claim
to be the former, but as we've seen here many time dealer "claims" are
easy:-) gee that reminds me better do a Harry's lies paste, hope you
don't mind???.

(vi) Wood is no good, as said it will get wet & it will then rot.

The liar is still the liar even in your latest thread!!! how's this;

(a) I suggest in true Harry lies fashion why doesn't he claim some
knowledge in the field so his BS lies will be believed by saying;

The problem isn't wood in boats. It is the wood between your ears.


Dear dear dear you can't help yourself, tell you what why don't you
make up a lie about how you're a structural engineer & specialise in
these things, or how about the jetski lie, this time what?? you won a
hammer & nail in a raffle???

& theeeeeeeen the train was a comin';

(b) So right on Q he does!!! with;

Puh-lease, Karen. You've not seen nor have I ever posted one example of
my professional writings on building structure and the effects on it of
hurricane-force winds and seismic activity. I haven't done any of these
in at least 10 year, but at the time I was field researching,
photographing and writing these reports, they were quite accurate,
topical and well-received by their intended audiences.

See all the elements of a Harry lie???



K

Here's some of Harry's lies for you, just to bring back old memories:-)

Here's just some of his prior lies (in his own words pasted);

I sold off nearly $3,000,000 in new motors and boats, depressing
the new boat
industry in southern Connecticut for an entire season. Everything was
sold...every
cotter pin, every quart of oil, 30 days after I started. For near
full-retail, too.


He had just under $1,000,000 on floor plan with a
syndicate of banks led by National Shawmut of Boston. He had been a
solid customer of that back for more than 20 years and they gave him
great rates.



As far as your other complaints, well, almost every president in my memory,
and I *remember* Truman, Eisenhower (who cheated on his wife), Kennedy,
Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan and Bush, lied and participated in
deceit to one degree or another, and on issues far more important than who
was giving them blow jobs.

Good lord. I met *every* president in the damned group except Bush, and I
worked once for his father.



My father used to pray that the north shore of LI Sound would be hit by
a mild hurricane. No
one injured, no on-shore property damaged, but lots of boats sunk.
Preferably early in July.


We had the Hatteras for two years. Last year, out of the cold clear, a
broker approached me with an offer to buy. Our continued Florida
lifestyle was somewhat up in the air, because the two breadwinners
hereabouts were about to be offered long-term but temporary assignments
they could not refuse in the Washington, D.C., area. So, after being
romanced a little, we sold the Hatt for almost precisely what we paid
for it. Not bad, after two full years of use. And I mean full years. So,
we didn't "make" any money off the Hatt, but we didn't lose any, either.
The proceeds were prudently invested.

The PWC was won as
a prize in a raffle.



Never mind that. Why does he have a Bilgeliner in front of his office?
Is it a display of "Boating Don'ts?"
Yeah, when we were in the boat biz, my father always had one or two

"around the back" that he was forced to take in trade. These were sold
as "as is, where is." He made sure the engine would start and run.
Beyond that, it was up to the prospective buyer to decide if he wanted
it. They moved off the lot pretty quickly, partially because my dad's
main store was on a highly trafficked commercial route with lots of
manufacturing and machining and aerospace plants near by. In those days,
workers at these places could fix anything.


Actually, Dipper, I don't think my father ever saw a Bayliner. But he still
called bumpers bumpers.
--



Bayliner wined and dined my father a half dozen times to entice him
into becoming its dealer. His operation was the largest small boat
dealership in its area of New England, and for 30 years, he was the
*exclusive* Evinrude dealer in a densely populated coastal county. He
also handled Mercuries. He never liked Bayliners, and referred to them
as "jerry-built."


From 1947 until he died, he sold more than 500 outboard motors a
year from his stores, accounting for a reasonably high percentage of *all*
outboards sold in his home state for those years.


This is a killer. My father was in the boat business dating back to
right after
the Big War. When he died and I was looking through his warehouse, I found
wrapped in a nuclear fall-out bag (no kidding), a brand-new 1949
Evinrude 8015
50 hp outboard. The motor was a gift to my father from Evinrude for
winning some
outboard stock utility or hydroplane race.

I gave the motor to a friend of my dad's, who worked at the shop as head
mechanic. I don't believe he ever used it and I'm sure it is still
brand-new. I
have no idea who might own it now.



He also built
boats, and I worked on a few, both wood, glass covered wood and
all fiberglass. After he died, however, we sold the biz and I've
just been an occasional boat owner.


Besides, I worked off and on in the
boat business and inherited it when he died. So, as I said, I'm
knee-deep in boat heritage.


Oh,
and I had some friends who died in the service, too, but it wasn't for
what they believed in. They were drafted, shipped to Vietnam and came
back in body bags.


During the war, he turned out experimental brass shell casings
for the
Army and hopped up outboards for the Navy, which wanted to use them on
smaller
landing craft. I had photos at one time of my father with Ole Evinrude
himself.
My mother knew one of Evinrude's wives...she was a minor movie star or
singer...I forgot which. Maybe both.



Have you ever sailed from San Francisco to Hawaii? I have.
Have you ever rounded Cape Horn? I have, twice.
Have you ever transited the Panama Canal? I have.
Have you owned more than 20 boats in your lifetime? I have.
Have you ever sailed large boats competitively? I have.
Have you ever been hundreds of miles from land in a powerboat under your
command? I have.


My father and his chief mechanic once crossed the Atlantic in winter in
a 22'
boat powered by twin outboards. Yes, it is possible, even the fuel. Got a
"fireboat" welcome in NYC.




Here are some:

Hatteras 43' sportfish
Swan 41' racing/cruising sloop
Morgan 33
O'Day 30
Cruisers, Inc., Mackinac 22
Century Coronado
Bill Luders 16, as sweet a sailboat as ever caught a breeze.
Century 19' wood lapstrake with side wheel steering
Cruisers, Inc. 18' and 16' wood lapstrakes
Wolverines. Molded plywood. Gorgeous. Several. 14,15,17 footers with various
Evinrudes
Lighting class sailboat
Botved Coronet with twin 50 hp Evinrudes. Interesting boat.
Aristocraft (a piece of junk...13', fast, held together with spit)
Alcort Sunfish
Ancarrow Marine Aquiflyer. 22' footer with two Caddy Crusaders.
Guaranteed 60
mph. In the late 1950's.
Skimmar brand skiff
Arkansas Traveler fiberglass bowrider (I think it was a bowrider)
Dyer Dhow
Su-Mark round bilge runabout, fiberglass
Penn Yan runabouts. Wood.
Old Town wood and canvas canoe
Old Town sailing canoe...different than above canoe



Sometime in the early 1960s, I was driving back from Ft. Leonard Wood to
Kansas City in a nice old MGA I owned at the time. About halfway home it
started raining heavily, I turned on the wipers, and EVERY SINGLE
electrical accessory and light in the car flashed on, there was a large
popping sound and it all blew out at once. And the car caught fire. I
pulled over to the side of the road, watched the fire, removed my
license plate and hitched on home. For all I know, that old MGA is still
there.

Sure was a pretty little car.


Puh-lease, Karen. You've not seen nor have I ever posted one example of
my professional writings on building structure and the effects on it of
hurricane-force winds and seismic activity. I haven't done any of these
in at least 10 year, but at the time I was field researching,
photographing and writing these reports, they were quite accurate,
topical and well-received by their intended audiences.









-- Rich Stern
www.nitroowners.com - The Nitro and Tracker Owners Web Site
www.mypontoon.com - The Pontoon Boat Web Site
www.fishingreportdatabase.com - The Fishing Report Database
www.mysporttrac.com - The Sport Trac Web Site

Is this a recent or past observation? Do you have an example? Polar makes
a
wide range of boats, in plants owned by different organizations.

The polar skiffs that are built to compete with the carolina skiffs have
suffered from hull cracks


What does that mean? What type of cracks? Structural cracks on the transom?
Gelcoat cracking on the pad? An epidemic of 3 of every 5 boats produced? 2
out of 100? Did they split while on the trailer? In rough water use?

I realize you are trying to give useful information, but your input is like
saying I shouldn't buy a Toyota Tundra because you heard that Corollas fold up
like an accordian in a crash.

I need real world input, if you know some.


-- Rich Stern
www.nitroowners.com - The Nitro and Tracker Owners Web Site
www.mypontoon.com - The Pontoon Boat Web Site
www.fishingreportdatabase.com - The Fishing Report Database
www.mysporttrac.com - The Sport Trac Web Site

As I recall you subscribe to "lets take a vote" theory for resolving
technical matters, which as demonstrated over the years here is risky
(ask anyone who bought a ficht or optimax, even if it didn't fail they
still took a bath).

Huh?

Since when is asking for opinions equivalent to taking votes on solving
technical matters? I am not out to "solve" anything. I am looking for input
that adds to my knowledge. No voting required. I write the check, so I make
the choice.

Regarding your assessment about the plant visit. I don't expect to pass
judgement on specific boat building details that I cannot grasp without a lot
more time and training than a couple of visiting hours will provide. However,
I can see things, like the grid, hull and deck before assembly, that are
unavailable to me otherwise. I have a practised business eye which will allow
me to assess some of the quality and process details at the plant. And I'll
have a Q&A opportunity that will far exceed any Q&A I can do with a dealer..
How could any of these things not gain me a more informed opinion of the
product than just kicking trailer tires at a dealership?

And, finally, a request: Please manage your cut and paste a little better.
Your reply mixes responses to Harry with your response to me, and I prefer to
not be in between as you two exchange your sixth or seventh thousandth
broadside.

Thanks for your input.


-- Rich Stern
www.nitroowners.com - The Nitro and Tracker Owners Web Site
www.mypontoon.com - The Pontoon Boat Web Site
www.fishingreportdatabase.com - The Fishing Report Database
www.mysporttrac.com - The Sport Trac Web Site

Rich Stern wrote:
As I recall you subscribe to "lets take a vote" theory for resolving
technical matters, which as demonstrated over the years here is risky
(ask anyone who bought a ficht or optimax, even if it didn't fail they
still took a bath).


Huh?

Since when is asking for opinions equivalent to taking votes on solving
technical matters? I am not out to "solve" anything. I am looking for input
that adds to my knowledge. No voting required. I write the check, so I make
the choice.

Clearly I agree with this & will leave the comment there.

Regarding your assessment about the plant visit. I don't expect to pass
judgement on specific boat building details that I cannot grasp without a lot
more time and training than a couple of visiting hours will provide. However,
I can see things, like the grid, hull and deck before assembly, that are
unavailable to me otherwise. I have a practised business eye which will allow
me to assess some of the quality and process details at the plant. And I'll
have a Q&A opportunity that will far exceed any Q&A I can do with a dealer..

Yes this is true but is was in the premises of assessing the stringer
config that I made the "not much use" comment. Obviously anyone there
will spruiking the merits of whatever they do.

How could any of these things not gain me a more informed opinion of the
product than just kicking trailer tires at a dealership?

Any information is better than that given by a dealer & yes I do agree
you can make a whole of Co assessment if that's required, although it
probably shouldn't be.


And, finally, a request: Please manage your cut and paste a little better.
Your reply mixes responses to Harry with your response to me, and I prefer to
not be in between as you two exchange your sixth or seventh thousandth
broadside.

Well you've been gone a while & sorry if my "style" isn't to your
liking, however I have tried to give "input" & actually explain why the
opinions forwarded are held.

The Harry the liar thing?? what can I say but sorry & point out it's
ALL on topic for this NG. besides I thought seeing a small sample of his
lies in one hit might bring back memories, sorry again:-) Please don't
ban me for a month I've apologised:-)

Thanks for your input.

Welcome hope you are happy with your purchase or happy if you don't.

K



-- Rich Stern
www.nitroowners.com - The Nitro and Tracker Owners Web Site
www.mypontoon.com - The Pontoon Boat Web Site
www.fishingreportdatabase.com - The Fishing Report Database
www.mysporttrac.com - The Sport Trac Web Site

Rich Stern wrote:

Is this a recent or past observation? Do you have an example? Polar makes
a
wide range of boats, in plants owned by different organizations.

The polar skiffs that are built to compete with the carolina skiffs have
suffered from hull cracks


What does that mean? What type of cracks? Structural cracks on the transom?
Gelcoat cracking on the pad? An epidemic of 3 of every 5 boats produced? 2
out of 100? Did they split while on the trailer? In rough water use?

A small fleet of Polar skiffs were purchased by an inshore bait, tackle
and boat rental business on the ICW in NE Florida. These boats were not
used on open waters. Within 90 days, cracks developed in the liners that
also served as the deck over the flotation in the bottom of the hulls. A
guide I know, one whose boats and engines are supplied to him by
manufacturers, also had a Polar skiff go bad on him for the same reasons
-liner and then hull fractures. Now, I'm not talking about hull side
liners, because these boats don't have any. But they do have a false
floor, so to speak, underneath which is flotation and hull stiffening
assembly. There also were problems with the consoles and seats
separating from the hulls.

Whether this is endemic to the Polar line, I don't know. They're pretty
cheaply made boats, though, and as rough and ready as Carolina Skiffs
are, the Polars I've seen seem shabbier.


--
Email sent to is never read.

K Smith wrote:

Rich Stern wrote:
As I recall you subscribe to "lets take a vote" theory for resolving
technical matters, which as demonstrated over the years here is risky
(ask anyone who bought a ficht or optimax, even if it didn't fail they
still took a bath).


Huh?

Since when is asking for opinions equivalent to taking votes on solving
technical matters? I am not out to "solve" anything. I am looking for input
that adds to my knowledge. No voting required. I write the check, so I make
the choice.

Clearly I agree with this & will leave the comment there.


Slammed to the mat again, eh, butch?



Regarding your assessment about the plant visit. I don't expect to pass
judgement on specific boat building details that I cannot grasp without a lot
more time and training than a couple of visiting hours will provide. However,
I can see things, like the grid, hull and deck before assembly, that are
unavailable to me otherwise. I have a practised business eye which will allow
me to assess some of the quality and process details at the plant. And I'll
have a Q&A opportunity that will far exceed any Q&A I can do with a dealer..

Yes this is true but is was in the premises of assessing the stringer
config that I made the "not much use" comment. Obviously anyone there
will spruiking the merits of whatever they do.

And yet again, you're slammed to the mat, eh, butch?



How could any of these things not gain me a more informed opinion of the
product than just kicking trailer tires at a dealership?

Any information is better than that given by a dealer & yes I do agree
you can make a whole of Co assessment if that's required, although it
probably shouldn't be.


And for the third time, you're backed into the corner and slammed down
on the mat, eh, butch?





And, finally, a request: Please manage your cut and paste a little better.
Your reply mixes responses to Harry with your response to me, and I prefer to
not be in between as you two exchange your sixth or seventh thousandth
broadside.

Well you've been gone a while & sorry if my "style" isn't to your
liking, however I have tried to give "input" & actually explain why the
opinions forwarded are held.

You don't have any "style," butch. You're just a jealous, whining butch.




--
Email sent to is never read.

A small fleet of Polar skiffs were purchased by an inshore bait, tackle
and boat rental business on the ICW in NE Florida. These boats were not
used on open waters. Within 90 days, cracks developed in the liners that
also served as the deck over the flotation in the bottom of the hulls. A
guide I know, one whose boats and engines are supplied to him by
manufacturers, also had a Polar skiff go bad on him for the same reasons
-liner and then hull fractures. Now, I'm not talking about hull side
liners, because these boats don't have any. But they do have a false
floor, so to speak, underneath which is flotation and hull stiffening
assembly. There also were problems with the consoles and seats
separating from the hulls.

Whether this is endemic to the Polar line, I don't know. They're pretty
cheaply made boats, though, and as rough and ready as Carolina Skiffs
are, the Polars I've seen seem shabbier.

OK, this is more useful info. When did this happen?



-- Rich Stern
www.nitroowners.com - The Nitro and Tracker Owners Web Site
www.mypontoon.com - The Pontoon Boat Web Site
www.fishingreportdatabase.com - The Fishing Report Database
www.mysporttrac.com - The Sport Trac Web Site