Get the Manatees off the endangered list
 

Its about time that Manatees were taken off the "endangered" list. This
will not remove the many special protections for the mammals, and there
will not be any fast food chains serving manatee burgers. It is a first
step into normalizing the species which has proved itself quite fertile.

I recently viewed a headline screaming 84 manatees were killed by
boaters, and this was double the number of 10 years ago. Not surprising,
since there are about 800% more manatees today then 10 years ago. The
last census showed over 4000 (That is up from 300 in '93) in the St.
Johns river alone. Soon, we shall be able to walk from Southbank to
Riverside by using manatees for stepping stones.

Additional manatee protection, as proposed by the Fish and Wildlife
Department in response to a lawsuit by the "Save the Manatee Club" is
not necessary. I for one resent being denied the use of large portions
of "my" river by a group of people that 1. doesn't live here. 2. Doesn't
have a clue as to the true census of Manatees. 3. Are playing on
sympathy instead of fact. 4. Is founded by Jimmy Buffet who lives in New
York.

Yes, 10 years ago, the Manatee was an endangered species. Now there are
so many they could easily become a nuisance in the next 10 years.

Capt. Frank In Jacksonville Florida

Get the Manatees off the endangered list
 

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 02:33:20 GMT, "Capt. Frank Hopkins"
wrote:
I for one resent being denied the use of large portions
of "my" river by a group of people that 1. doesn't live here. 2. Doesn't
have a clue as to the true census of Manatees. 3. Are playing on
sympathy instead of fact. 4. Is founded by Jimmy Buffet who lives in New
York.
================================================== =

There probably are a few genuine manatee lovers out there but I've
become increasingly convinced that a lot of the manatee protection
groups are being clothed and fed by home owners who live on or near
the shore, and are fed up with being buzzed by jet skiis and the
straight pipe speed boat set. Both of these groups sound a lot more
acceptable to the neighbors when running at idle speed. Notice that
there is no exception in the manatee speed zone regs for jet boats
which arguably could do little to harm a manatee at any speed.

Get the Manatees off the endangered list
 

The recent hysteria over manatees is also a problem for waterfront
homeowners because most waterfront homeowners are boaters too.

Waterfront home neighborhoods already have no wake zones. If
speedboats and jet skis violate those rules, the homeowners have a
right to be upset. Just like noisy cars and motorycyles zooming up
and down the street are annoying.

Manatee fanatics aren't rallying for more wake protection near fancy
houses, they want no speed zones *everywhere*. And manatees are
*everywhere* in Tampa Bay in the winter time. No shortage here at
all.

Manatees do not swim in less than 3 feet of water and boaters quickly
learn where they are most likely to be: in warm, deep water with lots
of grass. We learn to avoid them.

But the fanatics got their way in Tampa Bay and the result is this: at
the 4 foot deep contour near shore, 3 foot tall 8" diameter no wake
buoys are anchored every 100 ' or so. The buoys are meant to restrict
boaters to no wake within the marked area. Which may be 1/2 mile or
more from shore (shallow flats) and are encountered on the way to
mangrove shoreline fishing grounds.

So we're prevented from getting to the fishing spots in a reasonable
amount of time.

Here's the catch: there's little to no enforcement on Tampa Bay and
less maintenance of navigational aids - like these buoys. The result:
after a couple of years, these buoys are now coated with oysters which
have reduced their effective height above the waterline to about 6".
Which makes them almost impossible to see in some situations. That
makes them hazards to navigation.

$.02.


On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 22:00:25 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 02:33:20 GMT, "Capt. Frank Hopkins"
wrote:
I for one resent being denied the use of large portions
of "my" river by a group of people that 1. doesn't live here. 2. Doesn't
have a clue as to the true census of Manatees. 3. Are playing on
sympathy instead of fact. 4. Is founded by Jimmy Buffet who lives in New
York.
================================================= ==

There probably are a few genuine manatee lovers out there but I've
become increasingly convinced that a lot of the manatee protection
groups are being clothed and fed by home owners who live on or near
the shore, and are fed up with being buzzed by jet skiis and the
straight pipe speed boat set. Both of these groups sound a lot more
acceptable to the neighbors when running at idle speed. Notice that
there is no exception in the manatee speed zone regs for jet boats
which arguably could do little to harm a manatee at any speed.

Get the Manatees off the endangered list
 

Is founded by Jimmy Buffet who lives in New
York.

Not so. He lives in Palm Beach.

Get the Manatees off the endangered list
 

I agree. Ban 'motor boats' and the problem will be solved.

Wayne.B wrote in message
...
On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 02:33:20 GMT, "Capt. Frank Hopkins"
wrote:
I for one resent being denied the use of large portions
of "my" river by a group of people that 1. doesn't live here. 2. Doesn't
have a clue as to the true census of Manatees. 3. Are playing on
sympathy instead of fact. 4. Is founded by Jimmy Buffet who lives in New
York.
================================================== =

There probably are a few genuine manatee lovers out there but I've
become increasingly convinced that a lot of the manatee protection
groups are being clothed and fed by home owners who live on or near
the shore, and are fed up with being buzzed by jet skiis and the
straight pipe speed boat set. Both of these groups sound a lot more
acceptable to the neighbors when running at idle speed. Notice that
there is no exception in the manatee speed zone regs for jet boats
which arguably could do little to harm a manatee at any speed.

Get the Manatees off the endangered list
 

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 14:43:15 GMT, dcg wrote:

Manatees do not swim in less than 3 feet of water and boaters quickly
learn where they are most likely to be: in warm, deep water with lots
of grass. We learn to avoid them.

I'll have to disagree with your assumpition that boaters will learn to
avoid them. When I'm fishing the Tampa Bay area grass flats I
regularly watch boat after boat plow through obvious shoal areas and
grass flats. The water can be glassy and clear, with the grass flats
and sand bars clearly visible, and yahoo's come one after another
plowing right through.

Maybe some boaters will learn to avoid the manatees, but certainly not
all.

bb

Get the Manatees off the endangered list
 

NUKE THE MANATEES!

"F330 GT" wrote in message
...
Is founded by Jimmy Buffet who lives in New
York.

Not so. He lives in Palm Beach.

Get the Manatees off the endangered list
 

In article 5Nzvb.3546$dO2.633@lakeread03,
says...
NUKE THE MANATEES!

"F330 GT" wrote in message
...
Is founded by Jimmy Buffet who lives in New
York.

Not so. He lives in Palm Beach.



I agree.. Eliminate the Manatee's..Problem Solved..Would we really miss
them?.. We seem to be getting along fine without Wooly Mammoths and Saber
Tooth Tigers!!

Get the Manatees off the endangered list
 

You have been subjected to too many earthquakes and have shaken baby
syndrome.

Don White wrote:

I agree. Ban 'motor boats' and the problem will be solved.

Wayne.B wrote in message
...

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 02:33:20 GMT, "Capt. Frank Hopkins"
wrote:

I for one resent being denied the use of large portions
of "my" river by a group of people that 1. doesn't live here. 2. Doesn't
have a clue as to the true census of Manatees. 3. Are playing on
sympathy instead of fact. 4. Is founded by Jimmy Buffet who lives in New
York.

================================================ ===

There probably are a few genuine manatee lovers out there but I've
become increasingly convinced that a lot of the manatee protection
groups are being clothed and fed by home owners who live on or near
the shore, and are fed up with being buzzed by jet skiis and the
straight pipe speed boat set. Both of these groups sound a lot more
acceptable to the neighbors when running at idle speed. Notice that
there is no exception in the manatee speed zone regs for jet boats
which arguably could do little to harm a manatee at any speed.

Get the Manatees off the endangered list
 

Really? When did he move back? Last I heard he had a "Dakota" address
and was jammin in central park. He still needs to keep his parrot beak
out of politics.

CF

F330 GT wrote:

Is founded by Jimmy Buffet who lives in New
York.


Not so. He lives in Palm Beach.

Get the Manatees off the endangered list
 

The point is: there are more then 4000 of the supra nourished herbivores
in the St. Johns River in the September Census. I do not have the
numbers for south FL and Tampa Bay. Perhaps you can provide them and add
the two together. At what point does the population become so large that
it becomes viable? When does a creature no longer need special
endangerment protection. Manatees are still a protected species, they
won't lose that status-ever! The current protection zones are working.
The population increase proves it. In Jacksonville and other cities on
the river, we don't need or want the draconian measures the F&G C are
planning. 25 mph in the channal? gimme a break. My cruiser barely planes
at 25. The sea cow doesn't even like the water in the channel because 1.
its too deep. The cow don't like water more then 8 or 9 feet deep. 2.
there is too much current for it to squat on the bottom. It would be
washed out to sea. 3 No food there. Fat cow don't go where there is no
food (period). Increasing the buffer zones from 1000 feet to 3000 feet
is just plain nuts.


Ask a homeowner in Ocala which is near silver springs, fl what they
think about the cute little monkeys running all over town and getting
into mischief. The primates have proflierated so much that their
colonies have been spotted as far north as Palatka. They were once
classed as an endangered species and now have to be hunted to keep the
population manageable. Should we allow the cow to go that way?

McManatees---Billions and billions spent. Lets waste more money.

CF

bb wrote:

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 14:43:15 GMT, dcg wrote:


Manatees do not swim in less than 3 feet of water and boaters quickly
learn where they are most likely to be: in warm, deep water with lots
of grass. We learn to avoid them.


I'll have to disagree with your assumpition that boaters will learn to
avoid them. When I'm fishing the Tampa Bay area grass flats I
regularly watch boat after boat plow through obvious shoal areas and
grass flats. The water can be glassy and clear, with the grass flats
and sand bars clearly visible, and yahoo's come one after another
plowing right through.

Maybe some boaters will learn to avoid the manatees, but certainly not
all.

bb

Get the Manatees off the endangered list
 

No earthquakes here...just lots of free wind.
Hoist the sail and save the manatee.

Capt. Frank Hopkins wrote in message
nk.net...
You have been subjected to too many earthquakes and have shaken baby
syndrome.

Don White wrote:

I agree. Ban 'motor boats' and the problem will be solved.

Wayne.B wrote in message
...

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 02:33:20 GMT, "Capt. Frank Hopkins"
wrote:

I for one resent being denied the use of large portions
of "my" river by a group of people that 1. doesn't live here. 2.
Doesn't
have a clue as to the true census of Manatees. 3. Are playing on
sympathy instead of fact. 4. Is founded by Jimmy Buffet who lives in
New
York.

================================================ ===

There probably are a few genuine manatee lovers out there but I've
become increasingly convinced that a lot of the manatee protection
groups are being clothed and fed by home owners who live on or near
the shore, and are fed up with being buzzed by jet skiis and the
straight pipe speed boat set. Both of these groups sound a lot more
acceptable to the neighbors when running at idle speed. Notice that
there is no exception in the manatee speed zone regs for jet boats
which arguably could do little to harm a manatee at any speed.

Get the Manatees off the endangered list
 

BTW, what exactly is "no wake". Sorry, but EVERY boat underway makes a wake.
This leaves the interpretation up to the local yokel cops, who are mostly
intent on generating revenue from boaters.

"dcg" wrote in message
...
The recent hysteria over manatees is also a problem for waterfront
homeowners because most waterfront homeowners are boaters too.

Waterfront home neighborhoods already have no wake zones. If
speedboats and jet skis violate those rules, the homeowners have a
right to be upset. Just like noisy cars and motorycyles zooming up
and down the street are annoying.

Manatee fanatics aren't rallying for more wake protection near fancy
houses, they want no speed zones *everywhere*. And manatees are
*everywhere* in Tampa Bay in the winter time. No shortage here at
all.

Manatees do not swim in less than 3 feet of water and boaters quickly
learn where they are most likely to be: in warm, deep water with lots
of grass. We learn to avoid them.

But the fanatics got their way in Tampa Bay and the result is this: at
the 4 foot deep contour near shore, 3 foot tall 8" diameter no wake
buoys are anchored every 100 ' or so. The buoys are meant to restrict
boaters to no wake within the marked area. Which may be 1/2 mile or
more from shore (shallow flats) and are encountered on the way to
mangrove shoreline fishing grounds.

So we're prevented from getting to the fishing spots in a reasonable
amount of time.

Here's the catch: there's little to no enforcement on Tampa Bay and
less maintenance of navigational aids - like these buoys. The result:
after a couple of years, these buoys are now coated with oysters which
have reduced their effective height above the waterline to about 6".
Which makes them almost impossible to see in some situations. That
makes them hazards to navigation.

$.02.


On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 22:00:25 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 02:33:20 GMT, "Capt. Frank Hopkins"
wrote:
I for one resent being denied the use of large portions
of "my" river by a group of people that 1. doesn't live here. 2. Doesn't
have a clue as to the true census of Manatees. 3. Are playing on
sympathy instead of fact. 4. Is founded by Jimmy Buffet who lives in New
York.
================================================= ==

There probably are a few genuine manatee lovers out there but I've
become increasingly convinced that a lot of the manatee protection
groups are being clothed and fed by home owners who live on or near
the shore, and are fed up with being buzzed by jet skiis and the
straight pipe speed boat set. Both of these groups sound a lot more
acceptable to the neighbors when running at idle speed. Notice that
there is no exception in the manatee speed zone regs for jet boats
which arguably could do little to harm a manatee at any speed.

Get the Manatees off the endangered list
 

Capt. Frank Hopkins wrote:

The point is: there are more then 4000 of the supra nourished herbivores
in the St. Johns River in the September Census. I do not have the
numbers for south FL and Tampa Bay. Perhaps you can provide them and add
the two together. At what point does the population become so large that
it becomes viable? When does a creature no longer need special
endangerment protection. Manatees are still a protected species, they
won't lose that status-ever! The current protection zones are working.
The population increase proves it. In Jacksonville and other cities on
the river, we don't need or want the draconian measures the F&G C are
planning. 25 mph in the channal? gimme a break. My cruiser barely planes
at 25. The sea cow doesn't even like the water in the channel because 1.
its too deep. The cow don't like water more then 8 or 9 feet deep. 2.
there is too much current for it to squat on the bottom. It would be
washed out to sea. 3 No food there. Fat cow don't go where there is no
food (period). Increasing the buffer zones from 1000 feet to 3000 feet
is just plain nuts.



There's a lot of scientifically invalid claims in your post, Frank, and
a little silliness, too. I lived in the Jax-St. Augustine area for more
than five years, and on occasion would see manatees "out in the channel"
of the St. Johns River. I've also seen them doing quite well against the
currents at Mayport and St. Augustine inlets, and I've seen them under
the bridges at Green Cove Springs and Doctors' Lake.



--
Email sent to is never read.

Get the Manatees off the endangered list
 

BTW, what exactly is "no wake". Sorry, but EVERY boat underway makes a wake.
This leaves the interpretation up to the local yokel cops, who are mostly
intent on generating revenue from boaters.


You're right that every cop becomes the judge of whether or not your vessel is
creating a wake. It's impossible to haul the wake into court for evidence, so
it boils down to "He said vs. He said."

One standard that I have encountered seems to make a ton of sense: If the bow
wave is breaking, the boat is creating a wake.

A ripple is not a wake......unless the local cop has not been "awake" and needs
an easy ticket for the afternoon. :-)

Get the Manatees off the endangered list
 

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 04:56:49 GMT, "Capt. Frank Hopkins"
wrote:

The point is: there are more then 4000 of the supra nourished herbivores
in the St. Johns River in the September Census.

So, are you saying 4,000 is to many? How many do you think is a
reasonable number for a river system?

I do not have the
numbers for south FL and Tampa Bay. Perhaps you can provide them and add
the two together. At what point does the population become so large that
it becomes viable?

I have no idea how many are around the Tampa Bay area. I do know I
fish in and around TB on a regular basis and I always enjoy it when I
see them around.

Are you suggesting we should stop protecting them when they reach a
viable population?

When does a creature no longer need special
endangerment protection.

I'm guessing when we run out of fossil fuel and bring our own
population into some kind of control.

Manatees are still a protected species, they
won't lose that status-ever!

So are people. What's your beef with sharing the planet were both
stuck on?

The current protection zones are working.

IYO.

In Jacksonville and other cities on
the river, we don't need or want the draconian measures the F&G C are
planning.

You assume you speak for everyone in those cities. I'm sure you
don't. Certainly there are many people the prefer manatees over
boats.

My cruiser barely planes
at 25.

So?

The sea cow doesn't even like the water in the channel because 1.
its too deep. The cow don't like water more then 8 or 9 feet deep.

So how do they get from one shoal area to the next?

2.there is too much current for it to squat on the bottom. It would be
washed out to sea.

Yeah, ok, that must be why they are commonly found drowned offshore,
eh?

3 No food there. Fat cow don't go where there is no
food (period).

Ever? Not even to get to other feeding areas? Amazing concept.

Increasing the buffer zones from 1000 feet to 3000 feet
is just plain nuts.

Link?

Ask a homeowner in Ocala which is near silver springs, fl what they
think about the cute little monkeys running all over town and getting
into mischief.

And this is related to the manatee issue how?

McManatees---Billions and billions spent. Lets waste more money.

You show me how may billions we've wasted on manatees and I'll show
you how much we've wasted on Iraq.

I just don't mind modifying my actions just a little bit so another
animal can live and survive. Maybe that's where we're different.
bb

Get the Manatees off the endangered list
 

"Don White" wrote in message ...

No earthquakes here.

Nor manatees, nor even the slightest clue about the real situation,
either.

...just lots of free wind.

As you've demonstrated.

Btw are you canucks still cutting down all those pine forests and
selling them here in the US? I think we are going to have to put real
high tariffs on you for that notorious and shameful behavior.

Save the Canadian Pine Trees!

Hoist the sail and save the manatee.

I bet you feel so much better about yourself now, don't you?

Well, see the link below.

http://www.standing-watch.org/

Now, so do I.
--
SJM

Get the Manatees off the endangered list
 

All shallow water areas Harry. Dr. lake and the other areas you
mentioned are already manatee zones. As far as a little silliness, I
hope they are as silly "new zone" laws. Such torts will virtually kill
boating in mainstream Florida waterways.

I have lived and boated here most of my life, and have rarely, like
maybe twice, seen a cow in the channal of the river. They don't like
heavy current, though the will swim in it if they have to. When
transiting the downtown jax area cows hug the shore. When in the broad
water south of the base and into orange park and greencove, they stay in
the shallows. I have seen them scratching their back on the pilings of
the Shand's bridge, in 6 feet of water, and the channal is only 12-13
feet deep there. What the locals are ****ed about is the increase of
buffer zones from between 100 and 1500 feet depending on the area to 300
feet everywhere, AND a speed limit river wide of 25 MPH in the channal
which is 80 feet. There will be no wake zones everywhere else. This
includes the ICW and Matanzas, Halifax, and Indian River which will
become entirely a no wake zone because they are less then 6000' wide.

The way the law is written, it is up to the local water-cop to determine
if you are in violation. Quote: "White water showing at either bow or
stern." A O'Day 23' sailboat, under sail, will produce white water at
the bow at 3 to 4 Kts. Heavier boats may not be able to go slow enough
to maintain headway without producing whitewater. Mine certainly won't
If I am maintaining 6 mph againsn't a 6 mph current, I am motionless as
far as land is concerned, But I am tossing a hell of a bow wave and
churning plenty of whitewater and wake at the stern. But, would be
breaking the law as written.

Our (We The People Who Live Here) contention is, The existent zones are
working to protect the cow. We don't want or need further federal laws
to protect them, nor, do we want to be taxed or use existing tax funds
to maintain a bunch of new "manatee zone" signs. The estimate is 12,000+
will be needed state wide.

If you still lived here, you would be as angry as the rest of us.

Capt. Frank

Harry Krause wrote:
Capt. Frank Hopkins wrote:


The point is: there are more then 4000 of the supra nourished herbivores
in the St. Johns River in the September Census. I do not have the
numbers for south FL and Tampa Bay. Perhaps you can provide them and add
the two together. At what point does the population become so large that
it becomes viable? When does a creature no longer need special
endangerment protection. Manatees are still a protected species, they
won't lose that status-ever! The current protection zones are working.
The population increase proves it. In Jacksonville and other cities on
the river, we don't need or want the draconian measures the F&G C are
planning. 25 mph in the channal? gimme a break. My cruiser barely planes
at 25. The sea cow doesn't even like the water in the channel because 1.
its too deep. The cow don't like water more then 8 or 9 feet deep. 2.
there is too much current for it to squat on the bottom. It would be
washed out to sea. 3 No food there. Fat cow don't go where there is no
food (period). Increasing the buffer zones from 1000 feet to 3000 feet
is just plain nuts.




There's a lot of scientifically invalid claims in your post, Frank, and
a little silliness, too. I lived in the Jax-St. Augustine area for more
than five years, and on occasion would see manatees "out in the channel"
of the St. Johns River. I've also seen them doing quite well against the
currents at Mayport and St. Augustine inlets, and I've seen them under
the bridges at Green Cove Springs and Doctors' Lake.

Get the Manatees off the endangered list
 

Hey Chuck,
Yes, that is the biggest of the problems. When it comes down to "cop
said you said" you will always lose in hick county. They want that
$500.00 fine!

Capt. Frank

Gould 0738 wrote:

BTW, what exactly is "no wake". Sorry, but EVERY boat underway makes a wake.
This leaves the interpretation up to the local yokel cops, who are mostly
intent on generating revenue from boaters.



You're right that every cop becomes the judge of whether or not your vessel is
creating a wake. It's impossible to haul the wake into court for evidence, so
it boils down to "He said vs. He said."

One standard that I have encountered seems to make a ton of sense: If the bow
wave is breaking, the boat is creating a wake.

A ripple is not a wake......unless the local cop has not been "awake" and needs
an easy ticket for the afternoon. :-)

Get the Manatees off the endangered list
 

Scott McFadden wrote in message
snip...
Nor manatees, nor even the slightest clue about the real situation,
either.
..just lots of free wind.
As you've demonstrated.

Ok...let me see...
certain group of beligerent 'good ole boys' demand right to race around in
overpowered motorboats anywhere they
please, regardless of damage or irritation caused to any other livng
creature that may share same waterways.
....close???

Btw are you canucks still cutting down all those pine forests and
selling them here in the US? I think we are going to have to put real
high tariffs on you for that notorious and shameful behavior.
Save the Canadian Pine Trees!

GeorgeW has already beaten you to it.
Besides, the forests in my province are mostly spruce and fir. Not nearly
enough pine.

Hoist the sail and save the manatee.

Get the Manatees off the endangered list
 

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 16:04:45 GMT, WaIIy
wrote:

shaking head

I bet that chafes your ass.

bb

Get the Manatees off the endangered list
 

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 20:12:46 GMT, "Don White"
wrote:


Ok...let me see...
certain group of beligerent 'good ole boys' demand right to race around in
overpowered motorboats anywhere they
please, regardless of damage or irritation caused to any other livng
creature that may share same waterways.
...close???

Sounds about right.

bb

Get the Manatees off the endangered list
 

"Don White" wrote in message
...

Scott McFadden wrote in message
snip...
Nor manatees, nor even the slightest clue about the real situation,
either.
..just lots of free wind.
As you've demonstrated.

Ok...let me see...
certain group of beligerent 'good ole boys' demand right to race around in
overpowered motorboats anywhere they
please, regardless of damage or irritation caused to any other livng
creature that may share same waterways.
...close???

Another case of the uniformed Canadian sticking his nose in America's
business...

Get the Manatees off the endangered list
 

Hey Frank. Move on down here to Naples. Our manatee are either a) faster,
or b) tougher. Our speed limit in the channel of a manatee zone is
30mph...not 25mph like it is in Lee County.

I say we begin impact studies right away and see if manatees survive 25mph
collisions better than they do 30mph collisions.





"Capt. Frank Hopkins" wrote in message
link.net...
All shallow water areas Harry. Dr. lake and the other areas you
mentioned are already manatee zones. As far as a little silliness, I
hope they are as silly "new zone" laws. Such torts will virtually kill
boating in mainstream Florida waterways.

I have lived and boated here most of my life, and have rarely, like
maybe twice, seen a cow in the channal of the river. They don't like
heavy current, though the will swim in it if they have to. When
transiting the downtown jax area cows hug the shore. When in the broad
water south of the base and into orange park and greencove, they stay in
the shallows. I have seen them scratching their back on the pilings of
the Shand's bridge, in 6 feet of water, and the channal is only 12-13
feet deep there. What the locals are ****ed about is the increase of
buffer zones from between 100 and 1500 feet depending on the area to 300
feet everywhere, AND a speed limit river wide of 25 MPH in the channal
which is 80 feet. There will be no wake zones everywhere else. This
includes the ICW and Matanzas, Halifax, and Indian River which will
become entirely a no wake zone because they are less then 6000' wide.

The way the law is written, it is up to the local water-cop to determine
if you are in violation. Quote: "White water showing at either bow or
stern." A O'Day 23' sailboat, under sail, will produce white water at
the bow at 3 to 4 Kts. Heavier boats may not be able to go slow enough
to maintain headway without producing whitewater. Mine certainly won't
If I am maintaining 6 mph againsn't a 6 mph current, I am motionless as
far as land is concerned, But I am tossing a hell of a bow wave and
churning plenty of whitewater and wake at the stern. But, would be
breaking the law as written.

Our (We The People Who Live Here) contention is, The existent zones are
working to protect the cow. We don't want or need further federal laws
to protect them, nor, do we want to be taxed or use existing tax funds
to maintain a bunch of new "manatee zone" signs. The estimate is 12,000+
will be needed state wide.

If you still lived here, you would be as angry as the rest of us.

Capt. Frank

Harry Krause wrote:
Capt. Frank Hopkins wrote:


The point is: there are more then 4000 of the supra nourished herbivores
in the St. Johns River in the September Census. I do not have the
numbers for south FL and Tampa Bay. Perhaps you can provide them and add
the two together. At what point does the population become so large that
it becomes viable? When does a creature no longer need special
endangerment protection. Manatees are still a protected species, they
won't lose that status-ever! The current protection zones are working.
The population increase proves it. In Jacksonville and other cities on
the river, we don't need or want the draconian measures the F&G C are
planning. 25 mph in the channal? gimme a break. My cruiser barely planes
at 25. The sea cow doesn't even like the water in the channel because 1.
its too deep. The cow don't like water more then 8 or 9 feet deep. 2.
there is too much current for it to squat on the bottom. It would be
washed out to sea. 3 No food there. Fat cow don't go where there is no
food (period). Increasing the buffer zones from 1000 feet to 3000 feet
is just plain nuts.




There's a lot of scientifically invalid claims in your post, Frank, and
a little silliness, too. I lived in the Jax-St. Augustine area for more
than five years, and on occasion would see manatees "out in the channel"
of the St. Johns River. I've also seen them doing quite well against the
currents at Mayport and St. Augustine inlets, and I've seen them under
the bridges at Green Cove Springs and Doctors' Lake.

Get the Manatees off the endangered list
 

Better yet how about a study on how 'dentists' holdup under the same
conditions.

NOYB wrote in message
...
Hey Frank. Move on down here to Naples. Our manatee are either a)
faster,
or b) tougher. Our speed limit in the channel of a manatee zone is
30mph...not 25mph like it is in Lee County.

I say we begin impact studies right away and see if manatees survive 25mph
collisions better than they do 30mph collisions.

Get the Manatees off the endangered list
 

I think the survival of an endangered species is a universal concern...not
just 'merican.

NOYB wrote in message
...

Another case of the uniformed Canadian sticking his nose in America's
business...

Get the Manatees off the endangered list
 

Sure, Don. Let's hold the test up in Canada. Then it's a virtual certainty
that I won't have anything to fear...since Canada offers absolutely nothing
to ever draw me up there in the first place.



"Don White" wrote in message
...
Better yet how about a study on how 'dentists' holdup under the same
conditions.

NOYB wrote in message
...
Hey Frank. Move on down here to Naples. Our manatee are either a)
faster,
or b) tougher. Our speed limit in the channel of a manatee zone is
30mph...not 25mph like it is in Lee County.

I say we begin impact studies right away and see if manatees survive
25mph
collisions better than they do 30mph collisions.

Get the Manatees off the endangered list
 

The manatee's numbers are increasing Don. In fact, the numbers are more
than double what they were when they were placed on the list. And all of
that growth in the population occurred before the *new* unnecessary
regulations that Save the Manatee coerced (through lawsuits and back room
deals) the Feds into enacting.

The science doesn't back the need to maintain the manatee on the "endangered
list"...nor does it support the need to enforce *new* regulations. The sea
cow was doing fine just the way things were.





"Don White" wrote in message
...
I think the survival of an endangered species is a universal concern...not
just 'merican.

NOYB wrote in message
...

Another case of the uniformed Canadian sticking his nose in America's
business...

Get the Manatees off the endangered list
 

Maybe so...but we get over a hundred cruise ships a year jamb packed with
more enlightened North Eastern Americans
who seem to enjoy their visit.
As a matterof fact...so many Americans come here and like it,....they buy up
valuable waterfront properties and drive the price up out of reach of the
locals.
You could help by telling them there is nothing here worth buying for.

NOYB wrote in message
. ..
Sure, Don. Let's hold the test up in Canada. Then it's a virtual
certainty
that I won't have anything to fear...since Canada offers absolutely
nothing
to ever draw me up there in the first place.

Get the Manatees off the endangered list
 

Don, I think you must have struck a nerve with NYOB.....lol. Must be
right on the money.



Ok...let me see...
certain group of beligerent 'good ole boys' demand right to race around in
overpowered motorboats anywhere they
please, regardless of damage or irritation caused to any other livng
creature that may share same waterways.
...close???

Another case of the uniformed Canadian sticking his nose in America's
business...

Get the Manatees off the endangered list
 

That's what I mean. My trawler throws a pretty nice "swell" at 8 knots,
maybe a foot or more. But there's no white water, except right where the bow
is plowing through. I'll see what happens when I get to FL. The more I read
about it, the more I want to get through there as fast as possible. Seems
like they are getting really unfriendly to boaters, and the manatee issue is
mostly political, best as I can tell. But since when did environmentalists
need science?

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
BTW, what exactly is "no wake". Sorry, but EVERY boat underway makes a
wake.
This leaves the interpretation up to the local yokel cops, who are mostly
intent on generating revenue from boaters.


You're right that every cop becomes the judge of whether or not your
vessel is
creating a wake. It's impossible to haul the wake into court for evidence,
so
it boils down to "He said vs. He said."

One standard that I have encountered seems to make a ton of sense: If the
bow
wave is breaking, the boat is creating a wake.

A ripple is not a wake......unless the local cop has not been "awake" and
needs
an easy ticket for the afternoon. :-)

Get the Manatees off the endangered list
 

Don,
That post is as empty as last years birdnest.

CF

Don White wrote:
Scott McFadden wrote in message
snip...

Nor manatees, nor even the slightest clue about the real situation,
either.
..just lots of free wind.
As you've demonstrated.


Ok...let me see...
certain group of beligerent 'good ole boys' demand right to race around in
overpowered motorboats anywhere they
please, regardless of damage or irritation caused to any other livng
creature that may share same waterways.
...close???


Btw are you canucks still cutting down all those pine forests and
selling them here in the US? I think we are going to have to put real
high tariffs on you for that notorious and shameful behavior.
Save the Canadian Pine Trees!


GeorgeW has already beaten you to it.
Besides, the forests in my province are mostly spruce and fir. Not nearly
enough pine.

Hoist the sail and save the manatee.

Get the Manatees off the endangered list
 

jchaplain wrote:
Don, I think you must have struck a nerve with NYOB.....lol. Must be
right on the money.



Ok...let me see...
certain group of beligerent 'good ole boys' demand right to race around in
overpowered motorboats anywhere they
please, regardless of damage or irritation caused to any other livng
creature that may share same waterways.
...close???

Another case of the uniformed Canadian sticking his nose in America's
business...




Yep. I think you've root-canaled him on this one.


Email sent to is never read.

Get the Manatees off the endangered list
 

Another empty nester.

CF

bb wrote:

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 20:12:46 GMT, "Don White"
wrote:



Ok...let me see...
certain group of beligerent 'good ole boys' demand right to race around in
overpowered motorboats anywhere they
please, regardless of damage or irritation caused to any other livng
creature that may share same waterways.
...close???


Sounds about right.

bb

Get the Manatees off the endangered list
 

You got that right NYOB. And, I do have a branch of my charter business
in St. Pete. But plan to retire to Astor.

I couldn't agree more. I wonder if DW and BB have a true clue. Perhaps
someday they can afford to vacation for an extended stay in Fl, and get
a glimmer of the true picture. I don't think either of them have a clue.
Now let's see if we can educate the poor snow birds.

Clues for the Canucks

In 1978, when the sea cow was determined to be endangered, it truly was.
There were about 400 specimens remaining in the wild. Not due to boat,
but industrial pollution, mostly from the many mills producing toilet
paper, Kraft Paper, and writing products, that we, the boaters, had been
howling about for years. Privately funded groups such as Sea World,
Marineland, SIlver Springs Attractions and Weeki Watchi began lobbying
for reductions in pollutants, and local government jumped on the bandwagon.

Boats and boaters had little or nothing to do with the decline of the
manatee population then as they have these days. The boaters call in
more "Sick Cow" reports than any other group by a factor of 10.

End Clues For Canucks

Began Conclusion For Canucks

So Canucks! Paper, paper, paper, and PLASTIC its all over your house and
guess what!!!! It all comes from the south! from those very polluting
mills on the St. Johns river and ICW system. The next you go to the
butcher and bring home a wrapped haunch, buy a toy in a cardboard box,
buy anything made from nylon, rayon, dacron, fiberglass resen, pvc or
send or receive a written check, or plastic credit card, send mail in a
paper envelope, read the newspaper or ~wipe your ass,~ remember that you
are harming manatees too. (Capt. F sticks toung out.)

I love it when Canadians come to vacation in Florida. They always go
home with a different perspective. Besides, they are some of my best
customers!

Capt. Frank

NOYB wrote:

The manatee's numbers are increasing Don. In fact, the numbers are more
than double what they were when they were placed on the list. And all of
that growth in the population occurred before the *new* unnecessary
regulations that Save the Manatee coerced (through lawsuits and back room
deals) the Feds into enacting.

The science doesn't back the need to maintain the manatee on the "endangered
list"...nor does it support the need to enforce *new* regulations. The sea
cow was doing fine just the way things were.





"Don White" wrote in message
...

I think the survival of an endangered species is a universal concern...not
just 'merican.

NOYB wrote in message
om...

Another case of the uniformed Canadian sticking his nose in America's
business...

Get the Manatees off the endangered list
 

Capt. Frank Hopkins wrote:

You got that right NYOB. And, I do have a branch of my charter business
in St. Pete. But plan to retire to Astor.

I couldn't agree more. I wonder if DW and BB have a true clue. Perhaps
someday they can afford to vacation for an extended stay in Fl, and get
a glimmer of the true picture. I don't think either of them have a clue.
Now let's see if we can educate the poor snow birds.

Clues for the Canucks


The *fact* of the matter is, you're simply spreading boater propaganda
here, regarding manatees, rather than posting any sort of acceptable
science.

You're entitled to do that, of course,

The fact is that there is no accurate census on manatees now. There are
guesses, that is all. I've read some of the reports that detailed some
of the census techniques, and these are laughable, at best.

Your posts on manatee behavior are little more than a regurgitation of
everything every boating group in Florida has posted in defense of
higher boat speeds. I'm a part-time Floridian, and I'm aware of some
aspects of manatee population and behavior. My observations lead me to
different conclusions than much of what you've posted.

There's more at play here than manatees, of course. There's the issue of
high boat speeds, enormous boat wakes, careless boater behavior, driving
a boat while under the influence - these are all issues, along with
protecting manatees - that play into efforts to control the speed at
which boats are operated in the more protected Florida waters.

I used to live along the ICW, between the new bridge just north of St.
Augustine and the bend that turns towards the little airport basin. I'm
sure you are familiar with the general area. I filed many a complaint
about reckless boaters, boaters violating the no-wake zones and against
boaters, especially an airboater in the neighborhood, who violated noise
regulations. We also had some manatees in the area, very friendly ones,
who liked to patrol between where we were and the edge of Salt Run at
the S.A. inlet. Their presence added more to the general atmosphere of
the place than any overstuffed cruisers wallowing by, tossing up 8-foot
wakes.

You want some less restrictive regs that "protect" manatees? Then work
harder to prosecute irresponsible boaters.


--
Email sent to is never read.

Get the Manatees off the endangered list
 

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 15:04:22 GMT, "Capt. Frank Hopkins"
wrote:

I couldn't agree more. I wonder if DW and BB have a true clue. Perhaps
someday they can afford to vacation for an extended stay in Fl, and get
a glimmer of the true picture. I don't think either of them have a clue.

I've lived in the Tampa Bay area since 1957, Frank. I make my living
on the water, and have for the last 25 years. I think I've got a
pretty good first hand view of the situation.

For the most part, my experience has been anyone, non-military, who
calls themselves "captain", is a joke. You've done your part to
reinforce that opinion.

bb

Get the Manatees off the endangered list
 

My home port is the 2nd largest natural harbour in the world and we have a
speed limit.
I don't know what his problem is.
If he had to survive something like the Halifax Explosion, he might be more
inclined to accept responsibility for reckless actions. see
http://archives.cbc.ca/300c.asp?id=1-70-971


jchaplain wrote in message
...
Don, I think you must have struck a nerve with NYOB.....lol. Must be
right on the money.



Ok...let me see...
certain group of beligerent 'good ole boys' demand right to race around
in
overpowered motorboats anywhere they
please, regardless of damage or irritation caused to any other livng
creature that may share same waterways.
...close???

Another case of the uniformed Canadian sticking his nose in America's
business...

Get the Manatees off the endangered list
 

Harry Krause wrote in message
...
jchaplain wrote:
Don, I think you must have struck a nerve with NYOB.....lol. Must be
right on the money.



Ok...let me see...
certain group of beligerent 'good ole boys' demand right to race
around in
overpowered motorboats anywhere they
please, regardless of damage or irritation caused to any other livng
creature that may share same waterways.
...close???

Another case of the uniformed Canadian sticking his nose in America's
business...




Yep. I think you've root-canaled him on this one.


Email sent to is never read.

Get the Manatees off the endangered list
 

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 04:36:12 GMT, "Capt. Frank Hopkins"
wrote:

He still needs to keep his parrot beak
out of politics.

Ah yes, in the true spirit of American politics, silence dissent.

bb