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Power line follies (was cars)
On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 07:36:13 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 4/24/2019 8:48 PM, wrote: On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 00:39:30 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote: wrote: On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 19:35:19 -0400, Alex wrote: wrote: On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 18:36:36 -0700 (PDT), Its Me wrote: On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 8:41:50 PM UTC-4, wrote: On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:28:35 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:01:36 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 16:08:55 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 14:11:32 -0400, wrote: They are assuming coal fired electric plants but I agree all electric cars do is move the smoke stack down the road a ways. === In my opinion that's an over simplification. For one it ignores the fact that stationary, large-scale power plants are much more efficient than the average internal combusion engine used in vehicles. Secondly, the charging is usually done at off peak hours when there is typically excess grid capacity. Last but not least, the trend is pointing in the direction of renewable energy such as wind and solar. If we live long enough (doubtful), we might even see clean nuclear fusion some day. As an additional benefit, electric cars have done quite a bit to advance the state-of-the-art for light weight, high efficiency batteries. Those gains will eventually prove useful for the storage of wind and solar energy. That all assumes a clean power plant in the first place. The article was talking about coal plants and we still have plenty of them. Your solar power is not going to do much if the cars are charged at night. === At least in this country, coal plants are rapidly going away. Solar power at night is not going to happen of course. New battery technology, and other energy storage devices, will eventually help with that issue however. If every south facing roof in Florida was covered with high efficiency solar panels, there would be plenty of energy to spare for battery charging. I think that will eventually happen as the price of solar panels steadily decreases. My problem is drilling holes in a roof that isn't leaking now. My roofer neighbor says solar is great for his business. I also only have about 3kw worth of south facing roof. Solar is getting a lot cheaper tho. I was looking the other day and there are lots of collectors in the 75 cents a watt neighborhood. I wonder how FPL would feel if I built an array on their property ;-) Running those cables to/from that array near their power lines may be the biggest problem.You may create a transformer that neither of you want. That is way overstated. I have tried to scavenge power from those lines for 35 years with absolutely zero success. If you believe what you see on you tube I should be able to hold an F40 tube in the air and have it light up ... nope. I should be able to string a wire parallel to the line and generate something ... nope. Coil of wire ... nope. I really wanted a light in my boat house under those lines without stringing another wire but no joy. If you really look at these lines it is easy to see why. They are a twisted triplex. They just have a twist about every half mile or so but that is still way smaller than the wave length. (roughly from here to California) Besides, my wires would be running at 90 degrees to the power line and underground. There are a lot of LED lights that are charged with small solar panels. Pretty cheap, too. How much light do you need? I have 20 amps down there now. It is not an issue. The reality is 60 feet of rope light around the top of the lift is perfect. That ends up being about 100 watts. If I was still interested in trying to scavenge some power I might try something with an LED but I doubt I could even get a glimmer out of one. I have pretty much given up and debunked a lot of the urban legends. If anyone has another experiment, let me know. It is just a short walk across the Ed Labrador Memorial Bridge now, not Bwana hacking through the jungle like before. I am up there 4 or 5 times a day with the Deuce man. The setup is 1 delta high voltage line running 230kv and 2 delta medium voltage lines running 26kv. It is about 70 feet off the ground behind the house going up to more like 85' where it crosses the river. Bring out your fables. I love science. Need more voltage. The 500kv lines that run down the center of California induce lots of current in the parallel line. When a crop duster took out 5 towers, engineers thought an airplane would take out 4. Our friend worked for the power company. A special crew works on the line. Has a faraday cage suit. They shut down the downed line, reduced power in the parallel line and grounded the don line a mile each side of the break. He said the ground line at the tower by the break carried 200 amps. Why wouldn't it be somewhat proportional? I am not really able to see much of anything beyond tickling a digital meter and that happens just about anywhere. Because like RF, the high voltage lines produce a near field and then a quickly diminishing "far field" as distance from the lines increases. It's not proportional, is dependent on current flow and, at 60hz is not anywhere as strong as at RF frequencies. It's still something I think about though. The greatest risk is at ionizing potentials that can cause immediate damage to living cells. Non ionizing potentials may cause an affect, causing cell molecules to vibrate (which is the whole idea behind an MRI scan) but the jury is still out on damage due to long term exposure. Frankly, I am more concerned with the RF energy ... as low as it is ... of a cell phone held up to your head to use. There is much scientific controversy as to if long term exposure constitutes a danger. Because of the balancing effect of a 3 phase delta I am far less concerned about the transmission line behind the house than I am the single phase wye distribution in front. I also wonder just how much energy we are really talking about. I certainly have not been able to turn it into any measurable "work". Again, the low voltage operators are running miles of wire parallel to these medium voltage distribution lines and we are not seeing and significant current induced into the phone or TV cables. In most cases they are actually attached to the neutral return "strand". Dr Kirchoff tells us the current in this strand will be as high as the current in the medium voltage line, minus what returns through the earth. (and I think that is more than they want to admit). There are generally 2 of them so it is a little less than half of what the primary carries I suppose (one strand for the PoCo and one for the Telco/cable guys but they are both connected to the grounding conductor) All of this is trivial compared to the fields you generate right in your house, just because they are closer to you. The fact remains that we have been living, bathed in 60hz fields for over 100 years and we are not seeing any real effects. The cell phone thing is far more recent. I guess we will know soon tho as more people have one up to their head all day long. I guess I will be one of the control group. I still do not carry a phone. |
#3
posted to rec.boats
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Power line follies (was cars)
wrote:
On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 07:36:13 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 4/24/2019 8:48 PM, wrote: On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 00:39:30 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote: wrote: On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 19:35:19 -0400, Alex wrote: wrote: On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 18:36:36 -0700 (PDT), Its Me wrote: On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 8:41:50 PM UTC-4, wrote: On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:28:35 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:01:36 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 16:08:55 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 14:11:32 -0400, wrote: They are assuming coal fired electric plants but I agree all electric cars do is move the smoke stack down the road a ways. === In my opinion that's an over simplification. For one it ignores the fact that stationary, large-scale power plants are much more efficient than the average internal combusion engine used in vehicles. Secondly, the charging is usually done at off peak hours when there is typically excess grid capacity. Last but not least, the trend is pointing in the direction of renewable energy such as wind and solar. If we live long enough (doubtful), we might even see clean nuclear fusion some day. As an additional benefit, electric cars have done quite a bit to advance the state-of-the-art for light weight, high efficiency batteries. Those gains will eventually prove useful for the storage of wind and solar energy. That all assumes a clean power plant in the first place. The article was talking about coal plants and we still have plenty of them. Your solar power is not going to do much if the cars are charged at night. === At least in this country, coal plants are rapidly going away. Solar power at night is not going to happen of course. New battery technology, and other energy storage devices, will eventually help with that issue however. If every south facing roof in Florida was covered with high efficiency solar panels, there would be plenty of energy to spare for battery charging. I think that will eventually happen as the price of solar panels steadily decreases. My problem is drilling holes in a roof that isn't leaking now. My roofer neighbor says solar is great for his business. I also only have about 3kw worth of south facing roof. Solar is getting a lot cheaper tho. I was looking the other day and there are lots of collectors in the 75 cents a watt neighborhood. I wonder how FPL would feel if I built an array on their property ;-) Running those cables to/from that array near their power lines may be the biggest problem.You may create a transformer that neither of you want. That is way overstated. I have tried to scavenge power from those lines for 35 years with absolutely zero success. If you believe what you see on you tube I should be able to hold an F40 tube in the air and have it light up ... nope. I should be able to string a wire parallel to the line and generate something ... nope. Coil of wire ... nope. I really wanted a light in my boat house under those lines without stringing another wire but no joy. If you really look at these lines it is easy to see why. They are a twisted triplex. They just have a twist about every half mile or so but that is still way smaller than the wave length. (roughly from here to California) Besides, my wires would be running at 90 degrees to the power line and underground. There are a lot of LED lights that are charged with small solar panels. Pretty cheap, too. How much light do you need? I have 20 amps down there now. It is not an issue. The reality is 60 feet of rope light around the top of the lift is perfect. That ends up being about 100 watts. If I was still interested in trying to scavenge some power I might try something with an LED but I doubt I could even get a glimmer out of one. I have pretty much given up and debunked a lot of the urban legends. If anyone has another experiment, let me know. It is just a short walk across the Ed Labrador Memorial Bridge now, not Bwana hacking through the jungle like before. I am up there 4 or 5 times a day with the Deuce man. The setup is 1 delta high voltage line running 230kv and 2 delta medium voltage lines running 26kv. It is about 70 feet off the ground behind the house going up to more like 85' where it crosses the river. Bring out your fables. I love science. Need more voltage. The 500kv lines that run down the center of California induce lots of current in the parallel line. When a crop duster took out 5 towers, engineers thought an airplane would take out 4. Our friend worked for the power company. A special crew works on the line. Has a faraday cage suit. They shut down the downed line, reduced power in the parallel line and grounded the don line a mile each side of the break. He said the ground line at the tower by the break carried 200 amps. Why wouldn't it be somewhat proportional? I am not really able to see much of anything beyond tickling a digital meter and that happens just about anywhere. Because like RF, the high voltage lines produce a near field and then a quickly diminishing "far field" as distance from the lines increases. It's not proportional, is dependent on current flow and, at 60hz is not anywhere as strong as at RF frequencies. It's still something I think about though. The greatest risk is at ionizing potentials that can cause immediate damage to living cells. Non ionizing potentials may cause an affect, causing cell molecules to vibrate (which is the whole idea behind an MRI scan) but the jury is still out on damage due to long term exposure. Frankly, I am more concerned with the RF energy ... as low as it is ... of a cell phone held up to your head to use. There is much scientific controversy as to if long term exposure constitutes a danger. Because of the balancing effect of a 3 phase delta I am far less concerned about the transmission line behind the house than I am the single phase wye distribution in front. I also wonder just how much energy we are really talking about. I certainly have not been able to turn it into any measurable "work". Again, the low voltage operators are running miles of wire parallel to these medium voltage distribution lines and we are not seeing and significant current induced into the phone or TV cables. In most cases they are actually attached to the neutral return "strand". Dr Kirchoff tells us the current in this strand will be as high as the current in the medium voltage line, minus what returns through the earth. (and I think that is more than they want to admit). There are generally 2 of them so it is a little less than half of what the primary carries I suppose (one strand for the PoCo and one for the Telco/cable guys but they are both connected to the grounding conductor) All of this is trivial compared to the fields you generate right in your house, just because they are closer to you. The fact remains that we have been living, bathed in 60hz fields for over 100 years and we are not seeing any real effects. The cell phone thing is far more recent. I guess we will know soon tho as more people have one up to their head all day long. I guess I will be one of the control group. I still do not carry a phone. Maybe the result of all the 60hz gets you an AOC? |
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