K Smith wrote:

Gould 0738 wrote:
Yup, Saddam sure fooled a lot of people!


It's a good thing Saddam is gone.

But if ever we decide that a noble end justifies any conceivable means, we will
become a rogue nation.



Chuck saddam could have just opened the place up to free proper
inspection & none of it would have happened. The reason you the UK (&
little us, don't forget us:-)) went in was because we were trying to
protect our citizens from terrorist attacks.


Unlikely. After all, you're still running free and loose in Australia,
Karen Elizabeth Smith.

On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 08:36:40 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

How many body bags do you think will be coming home by elections next
year, Bill?

It's very unfortunate for those serving right now, but the locals know
more body bags equals trouble for Bush. It's hard to imagine every
leader in the region, other than Isreal, doesn't want to see Bush
fail. Heck, if I was a leader over there, I'd want that mad man out
of office in the worst way. I'm sure they are doing their best to
funnel support to the opposition and will increase that effort as the
election approaches. It looks like were up to about two body bags a
day now. Next summer should be a rough time to be hanging around
Iraq.

bb

bb wrote:
On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 08:36:40 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

How many body bags do you think will be coming home by elections next
year, Bill?

It's very unfortunate for those serving right now, but the locals know
more body bags equals trouble for Bush. It's hard to imagine every
leader in the region, other than Isreal, doesn't want to see Bush
fail. Heck, if I was a leader over there, I'd want that mad man out
of office in the worst way. I'm sure they are doing their best to
funnel support to the opposition and will increase that effort as the
election approaches. It looks like were up to about two body bags a
day now. Next summer should be a rough time to be hanging around
Iraq.

bb

Sadly, I don't believe that a handful of U.S. soldier deaths each day
has much of an impact on Boobus Americanus. The Iraqi opposition forces
know this, too, and since they have far better intelligence in the area
than we do, I would be saddened but not surprised to hear the daily
death toll rising as larger targets are selected.

I just love the way the idiot in the White House plays the game of
newspeak, don't you? "We're succeeding because the Iraqis are trying
harder."

Reminds me of what our military and political leaders were saying during
the war against the Vietnamese. It was crap then and it is crap now. We
have the weaponry to flatten military forces, but we don't have the
wherewithal to compete against superiority in intel.

(Gould 0738) wrote in message ...

Sorry if that sounds cynical. It is. I don't put any sort of skullduggery or
dirty tricks past politicians in general.

Well said and, an interesting "theory" you have there. Nothing these
dirty rotten scumbags, Rep or Dem, do surprises me.

I figured they (GB11) would have had the CIA plant some WMD's to be
"found" by now. If for no other reason than to make the chief LW
puppeteers dream up another "song & dance" for their legions of
mindless marionettes to endlessly "share" with us here on rec.boats.

Anybody who lived through the 60's knows that politicians
can be willing and able to accept American military casualties
as part of the price of politics.

"I will not send American boys to fight what is a Vietnamese
boys fight"(or words to that effect)-Lyndon Baines Johnson

+58,000 dead
+304,000 wounded

If I ever have the extreme misfortune of winding up in Johnson City,
TX I'm going to make it a point to take a **** on his grave.
--
SJM

Have you taken your prozac today?

basskisser wrote:

This is a very good read. It really does well to explain just how
gullible or blinded the republicans are in this country:


Like you even needed more proof.

Like you even need to read about the incredible and ever-increasing
list of lies and misinfo and deeply, colon-clenchingly humiliating
wrongness shot forth from the mouth of the GOP machine, a truly
jaw-dropping assortment of falsehoods and fabrications about war, and
war, and war. Oh, and the economy. And the environment. And war.

Look. There is no doubt left. Zero. None. Even many high-ranking
Republicans are deeply worried over the increasingly embittered
national timbre regarding BushCo's lies, as reflected in his
ever-slipping ratings and declining reelectability quotient and his
smug little smirky emptiness.

Do you need to be reminded? Do you need to see it again?

Very good, then. Let us recap: No WMDs. Biggest joke on the American
public in the past 50 years. Saddam doesn't have 'em, and probably
never did. Over 1,400 of BushCo's own investigators and specialists
and scientists -- affectionately known as the Iraq Survey Group --
canvassing postwar Iraq for six months, not to mention the teams of
original U.N. investigators, and finding not a trace of anything
resembling huge stockpiles of massive scary weaponry.

Which is to say, no nukes. No biotoxins. No big cannons full of scary
Korans and rusty bullets and old gum. Nothing at all resembling what
Condi Rice and Cheney and Rummy and Wolfowitz, et al., said were
absolutely positively no question going to be found any day now
because after all that's why we went to war. Except that it wasn't.
And they knew it.

To paraphrase The Washington Post: Among the judgments of the
above-mentioned Iraq Survey Group, as overseen by David Kay, who
reports directly to CIA Director George Tenet, are these: Iraq's
nuclear-weapons scientists did no significant arms-related work after
1991. Also, all those facilities with suspicious new construction
(remember Colin "Emasculated" Powell's bogus satellite photos?) proved
benign, and of no military use whatsoever.

This is not speculation. This is not liberal wishful thinking. These
are facts. And BushCo knew them. And more.


Translation: Bush's urgent call back in March to bomb the living crap
out of ****ant Iraq because Saddam had irrefutably cranked up his nuke
arsenal and might possibly bomb weak depressed New York at any minute
and wipe out all the Starbucks and ruin Monday Night Football was not
only completely bogus and impossible, it was shockingly dangerous, and
unprecedented, and even borderline treasonous.

Remember how Saddam ostensibly loved al Qaeda? Remember how Uncle Dick
helped drill that terrorism connection into the cultural
consciousness, repeatedly, across all media for months on end just
before the war, thus inducing upward of 50 percent of the disturbingly
gullible U.S. population to believe that Saddam actually had a hand in
9/11? When he didn't? When there was no connection whatsoever?
Remember that?

Ah, yes. It turns out that all intelligence and every piece of
evidence points exactly the opposite way. As BushCo was well informed,
Saddam might only make contact with al Qaeda -- his sworn enemies --
if his back was against the wall, and probably not even then.

More? Sure. How about Afghanistan? Remember that? Osama at large.
Never captured. Taliban resurfacing. No aid for the country and no
rebuilding (except for a shiny new oil pipeline) and complete
devastation and neglect.

And even Rummy, in his private and damning memo, said as much, just
last week, writing that there is absolutely no way to tell whether we
are making any progress in the war on terror, and that "victory" would
be "a long, hard slog," and that it was impossible to say whether we
are killing known terrorists any faster than the increasingly furious
and inspired madrassas, or Islamic fundamentalist schools, can
manufacture them.

"This is a man that we know has had connections with al Qaeda. This is
a man who, in my judgment, would like to use al Qaeda as a forward
army." -- President Bush, Oct. 14, 2002

"Yes, there is a linkage between al Qaeda and Iraq." -- Defense
Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, Sept. 26, 2002

"There have been contacts between senior Iraqi officials and members
of al Qaeda going back for actually quite a long time." -- National
Security Advisor Condoleeza Rice, Sept. 25, 2002

Isn't that cute? Not a single one of those statements was true. And
not a single one of those people is being accused of treason or
malfeasance or of being a soulless anti-American warmongering drone,
despite how their words were dripping with lies when they exited their
mouths.

Look. Bush told Americans we were going to enter into this savage and
bloody war no one really wanted because Iraq posed an immediate and
imminent threat to the security of the U.S. and its citizens. He
gutted the economy for it. He destroyed long-standing relationships
with countless international allies for it. He made America into this
rogue superpower brat, disrespected and untrustable and appalling, for
it. And it was never true.

How about this? More soldiers have died since BushCo declared the war
essentially over six months ago than during the war itself. And
guerrilla attacks on U.S. forces have more than doubled over recent
months to more than 25 per day, with fresh American causalities coming
in nonstop.

No matter, says the GOP. All part of the clumsy "rebuilding" process,
they say. By the way, that $87 billion BushCo just begged for to keep
the Iraq war machine clunking along? That's more than the fiscal debt
of all the gutted U.S. states combined. Iraq is, by every account, a
devastating U.S. money pit.

Might it be worth mentioning here that comprehensive new nonpartisan
investigation that reveals how at least 15,000 Iraqis, including a
minimum of 4,000 civilians, were slaughtered by U.S. forces in the
first days of the invasion? Or that some estimates of total Iraqi
civilian deaths go as high as nearly 10,000? Do those people matter?
All those women and children and poor families? Nah. Screw 'em.

And you know why they don't matter, according to the GOP? Because we
got rid of a pesky evil pip-squeak tyrant, that's why. One who was
zero threat to the U.S., and not much of a threat to neighboring
countries, and had no 9/11 connection, but who we know killed lots of
his own people 20 years ago, with America's full and complicit
assistance, including the biotoxins we sold to him.

And how he's gone. Yay! Mission accomplished! Except, of course, he's
not. Still alive, apparently. But he's hiding somewhere! And he's
probably really furious that he had to shave his mustache, too! Ha!
That oughta show him! That's $300 billion and hundreds of dead U.S.
soldiers well spent, baby! God bless America.

This needs to be said. This needs to be repeated, over and over again,
because apparently it is still not clear and apparently Republican
apologists love to trot it out as some sort of justification, some
sort of hollow and childish accusation, signifying nothing.

Yes, Bill Clinton lied, too. He lied about stupid adulterous sex. And
the GOP savaged him like rabid feral swine attacking a rutabaga. Had
him impeached over it. Loathe him still, and his wife, too, with
unprecedented level of hatred and bile and vicious litigious action
never before seen in this nation.

No such fate for BushCo. Shockingly, the GOP isn't the slightest bit
upset about this pro-corporate, oil-drunk administration's deadly
string of lies. Shall we wonder why? Or is it just too poisonous and
sad to consider for very long, lest the intellect curdle and the soul
recoil?

OK, I'll spell it out: George W. Bush and his entire senior
administration lied, and continue to lie, flagrantly, openly,
knowingly, with full intent, about the need to drive this nation into
a brutal and unwinnable and fiscally debilitating war, one that
protects no one and inhibits no terrorism and defends nothing but
BushCo's own petrochemical cronies and political stratagems.

This much is obvious. This much is painfully, crushingly sad. And this
much we must purge like so much clotted gunk from the collective
social artery one year from now. Otherwise, we should just turn in our
stained and bloody Superpower badge, and resign ourselves to our fate.

Heck, if I was a leader over there, I'd want that mad man out
of office in the worst way.

S'pose any of those foreign leaders have access to the internet?

http://www.newamericancentury.org/st...principles.htm

On 01 Nov 2003 16:00:06 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

Heck, if I was a leader over there, I'd want that mad man out
of office in the worst way.

S'pose any of those foreign leaders have access to the internet?

http://www.newamericancentury.org/st...principles.htm

I can't imagine they do. Aren't they all just a half step above
animals? They just don't seem to understand it's unpatriotic not to
support Bush's agenda.

bb

Harry Krause wrote in message ...

I just love the way the idiot in the White House plays the game of
newspeak, don't you? "We're succeeding because the Iraqis are trying
harder."

Reminds me of what our military and political leaders were saying during
the war against the Vietnamese.

It does have an eerie ring to it.

It was crap then and it is crap now. We have the weaponry
to flatten military forces, but we don't have the wherewithal
to compete against superiority in intel.

Remember, it was not Viet Minh guerrillas who rolled into Saigon
in '75. It was regular army North Vietnamese troops supported by
tanks.

The Viet Minh had been effectively finished off by the infamous
"Phoenix Program".

http://www.danford.net/phoenix.htm

Something on that order is what needs to get started, right now.

You may have noticed I did not use the term "Viet Cong".

That is because it was just another one the many made up "lies" by the
US Govt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viet_Minh

If you're going to lie about, or worse yet don't even know, who it is
you're really fighting, is it any wonder you do not succeed?
--
SJM

"Scott McFadden" wrote in message
...
(Gould 0738) wrote in message
...

I figured they (GB11) would have had the CIA plant some WMD's to be
"found" by now. If for no other reason than to make the chief LW
puppeteers dream up another "song & dance" for their legions of
mindless marionettes to endlessly "share" with us here on rec.boats.

This plausible scenario courtesy of a person casting himself as above the
fray.

It'll have to be something a little more realistic to get us dancing.

"bb" wrote in message
...
On 01 Nov 2003 16:00:06 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

Heck, if I was a leader over there, I'd want that mad man out
of office in the worst way.

S'pose any of those foreign leaders have access to the internet?

http://www.newamericancentury.org/st...principles.htm

I can't imagine they do. Aren't they all just a half step above
animals? They just don't seem to understand it's unpatriotic not to
support Bush's agenda.

bb

OPEC is making sure Bush doesn't get an economic boost from lower oil
prices. I think we can depend on them to keep the economy from really
taking off.