If you go to JD Powers web site they have reviewed many different models and
products ( http://www.jdpower.com/cc ). If the survey was controlled by
the manufacturer, I would not have expected Sea Ray to come in number 1, and
Bayliner and Maxum to be next to the last, since they are all owned by the
same company. Yes, survey can be biased and yes companies can pay to get a
survey to say anything they want, but I don't think the facts back up your
claim that JD Powers can be bought to say anything you want.


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Are you basing this on actual knowledge of the way J.D.Power opertes or
are
you basing this on what could happen? In the automotive industry all
manufacturers buy them, but only a few get the top rating.

Aren't you the same guy that just made the wise ass personal remark?

See that black helicopter outside? It's got a rotor on top. Go sit on it.
And
spin. :-)

Then when you're done getting even dizzier, I'll suggest an exercise for
you
that will allow you, or any other thinking person, to draw a personal
conclusion. Wouldn't expect you to take the word of a black helicopterist.

Is that JD Power "survey" that supposedly proves Cobalt boats are the be
all
and end all of everything afloat still around? If so, take a look at the
rankings list. As I recall,
there's a big, gold colored #1, or a blue ribbon, or some other
abso-friggin
lutely non-objective bit of colorful artwork tagged to the Cobalt name. Is
this
the way a scientific and objective study reports findings? Why is it that
JD
Powers wants to be *absolutely certain* nobody misses Cobalt at the top of
the
heap?

Then look at the other boats that didn't fare so well. Notice that the
survey
doesn't use any real statistics, just a group of choices from "really
good" to
"POS" How many points separate really good from POS. Is the scale
standardized
between one question and the next, or one brand and the next? There is no
way
to know.

For a good many people, this kind of presentation is completely
believable. As
long as that remains the case, there is a bright future for the private
survey
companies.

As far as the automotive industry goes, I worked in autos for about 20
years. I
was a partner in a new car dealership for a while, and I've served on
marketing
committees for Chrysler and Subaru. I am very well acquainted with JD
Powers
and how the whole survey business is operated.

If you go to JD Powers web site they have reviewed many different models and
products ( http://www.jdpower.com/cc ). If the survey was controlled by
the manufacturer, I would not have expected Sea Ray to come in number 1, and
Bayliner and Maxum to be next to the last, since they are all owned by

Ok.

From the top.

JD Powers does not directly compare products. They collect and compare
"Customer Satisfaction Surveys". Can we agree on that? If so, on to point two.
If not, let me know.

Point two: None of the people they are surveying are directly comparing two or
more products either, (in most cases). They own a new brand X car, boat,
motorcycle, Frisbee, or what not and they get a survey. These people have no
idea based on actual usage experience how their product compares to the
competition.
(They probably think their product is either the best, or the best deal at the
time they buy it.) Can we agree that the survey respondents are, in the vast
majority of cases, not comparing two products? If so, on to point three. If
not, let me know.

Point Three: Powers assembles rankings based not on how the products actually
compare, but on how many bubbling, glowing, happy-owner responses it gets on
the various products. Can we agree on this? If so, on to point four.

Point Four: The nature of the questions that are asked in the survey will
influence
the type of responses that come in. Take
a product with a known defect in, say, the "on" switch. The failure rate is
50%, and the factory is hustling to do recalls as fast as possible. You want
that product to do poorly? You ask, "How would you rate the reliability of the
On switch?" You want that product to show pretty well? Don't ask about the
reliablity of the On switch, ask whether the factory and dealer have been quick
to respond when repairs are needed.

Throughout the entire process, JD Powers is creating a product and selling it.

I agree with every point you made, except the fact that JD Power is skewing
the questions (which I agree, can be done on a survey) to get a
predetermined response. JD Powers is selling a product that will show the
manufacturer how the owners perceive their product to be as far as quality.
It does not matter if the answer is good or bad, the companies still are
interested in "customer perception". While a good response makes for a
great advertising plus, a bad response is even more important to them. If
the company is making a better mousetrap, but the customer does not perceive
it to be, then they have a problem which can be easily solved. This is why
we now have auto dealers so interested in how your service work was
performed by the dealer. Dealers get paid on customer perception of the
service call.

If customer perception of a quality problem is real, the manufacture would
rather hear about it from JD Powers than when their sales decrease. JD
Powers is creating a product and selling it, but the product is not a biased
survey that will allow them to say they are #1 on the JD Powers survey. The
product JD Powers is selling is an unbiased survey of the customers
perception of the product and the dealers network to service the product.
The minute the companies or the consumer believe the survey is biased they
have nothing to sell.

I believe you have seen other companies who will give you a survey to
highlight a companies benefits, but JD Powers is not one of them.



"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
If you go to JD Powers web site they have reviewed many different models
and
products ( http://www.jdpower.com/cc ). If the survey was controlled
by
the manufacturer, I would not have expected Sea Ray to come in number 1,
and
Bayliner and Maxum to be next to the last, since they are all owned by

Ok.

From the top.

JD Powers does not directly compare products. They collect and compare
"Customer Satisfaction Surveys". Can we agree on that? If so, on to point
two.
If not, let me know.

Point two: None of the people they are surveying are directly comparing
two or
more products either, (in most cases). They own a new brand X car, boat,
motorcycle, Frisbee, or what not and they get a survey. These people have
no
idea based on actual usage experience how their product compares to the
competition.
(They probably think their product is either the best, or the best deal at
the
time they buy it.) Can we agree that the survey respondents are, in the
vast
majority of cases, not comparing two products? If so, on to point three.
If
not, let me know.

Point Three: Powers assembles rankings based not on how the products
actually
compare, but on how many bubbling, glowing, happy-owner responses it gets
on
the various products. Can we agree on this? If so, on to point four.

Point Four: The nature of the questions that are asked in the survey will
influence
the type of responses that come in. Take
a product with a known defect in, say, the "on" switch. The failure rate
is
50%, and the factory is hustling to do recalls as fast as possible. You
want
that product to do poorly? You ask, "How would you rate the reliability of
the
On switch?" You want that product to show pretty well? Don't ask about the
reliablity of the On switch, ask whether the factory and dealer have been
quick
to respond when repairs are needed.

Throughout the entire process, JD Powers is creating a product and selling
it.

Oh, puh-lease. When I "participated" in the Yamaha survey, I had 50+
years of actual usage experience with various brands of outboard
motors. So, I presume, do many other purchasers. I doubt 225 hp
outboards of any brand are bought by firs-time boaters.

And you are going to be able to accurately compare the total ownership
experience of the brand new outboard you just got, with the Johnson Sea Horse
you sold 45 years ago? You don't have enough time with the current product, and
you have forgotten about the old one. Besides, and this is an important
besides, people are going to use Powers survey to draw conclusions about the
relative quality between products. Current products sold new. Do you suppose
the brand of outboard you haven't owned since the 1960's is still the same
motor today? Not better or worse? If you own a 2003 Brand X motor, you cannot
speak from first hand experience about owning a 2003 Brand Y.

Luckily, the survey doesn't ask you to compare your outboard with other new
outboards- but the questions about how satisfied you might be can be posed in
such a way that various manufacturers will do very well, based on particular
product characteristics.

A number of the questions had to do with the dealer and how well or
how poorly it performed.


As always.

Chuck,

Flames aside, my question remains unanswered. Realize you have no obligation
to defend your position, but IMO if everyone included in the survey pays for
the survey all are entitled to a result.

If Evinrude, Yamaha, and Mercury ALL pay for a survey there must be a ranking
at the end of the survey. In this case Evinrude wins, no?

If the above is true, how do you explain your premise? Under the scenario you
described no one would fail to be first, no?

I suspect you may have reached an incorrect conclusion on this issue, senor.
Comment?

Butch

Chuck,

Flames aside, my question remains unanswered. Realize you have no obligation
to defend your position, but IMO if everyone included in the survey pays for
the survey all are entitled to a result.

If Evinrude, Yamaha, and Mercury ALL pay for a survey there must be a ranking
at the end of the survey. In this case Evinrude wins, no?

If the above is true, how do you explain your premise? Under the scenario
you
described no one would fail to be first, no?

I suspect you may have reached an incorrect conclusion on this issue, senor.
Comment?

Butch


Powers surveys for a couple of different objectives.

First, if you sign up with JD Powers to survey your recently delivered
customers (or more likely, the manufacturer will do so), you will get a report
reflecting what the surveys of your specific customers said. And you will pay.
And nobody else will know what your customers said.

For this kind of statistic to be meaningful to a business, one has to know how
the numbers compare to the competition, but the comparison numbers that are
furnished for comparison are typically expressed as an aggregate......(or they
were 10-15 years ago when I used to get the reports of customer surveys)

Second, you can contract with JD Powers to conduct a "survey" showing how your
trademark compares to others in the industry as far as customer satisfaction
and perception of quality goes. Only the contracting company will pay for such
a survey. Any guesses how the results will turn out?

In any survey, you can control the answers you will get by the way you ask the
questions.

Again, look at that Cobalt boat survey.
Very typical.

Cobalt is considered the best runabout in the industry. It is the most
expensive, well built boat in it's class. Why wouldn't it get the number
one rating? What is so surprising about that? As I said, you are always
spotting black helicopters popping up everywhere you look.


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Chuck,

Flames aside, my question remains unanswered. Realize you have no
obligation
to defend your position, but IMO if everyone included in the survey pays
for
the survey all are entitled to a result.

If Evinrude, Yamaha, and Mercury ALL pay for a survey there must be a
ranking
at the end of the survey. In this case Evinrude wins, no?

If the above is true, how do you explain your premise? Under the
scenario
you
described no one would fail to be first, no?

I suspect you may have reached an incorrect conclusion on this issue,
senor.
Comment?

Butch


Powers surveys for a couple of different objectives.

First, if you sign up with JD Powers to survey your recently delivered
customers (or more likely, the manufacturer will do so), you will get a
report
reflecting what the surveys of your specific customers said. And you will
pay.
And nobody else will know what your customers said.

For this kind of statistic to be meaningful to a business, one has to know
how
the numbers compare to the competition, but the comparison numbers that
are
furnished for comparison are typically expressed as an aggregate......(or
they
were 10-15 years ago when I used to get the reports of customer surveys)

Second, you can contract with JD Powers to conduct a "survey" showing how
your
trademark compares to others in the industry as far as customer
satisfaction
and perception of quality goes. Only the contracting company will pay for
such
a survey. Any guesses how the results will turn out?

In any survey, you can control the answers you will get by the way you ask
the
questions.

Again, look at that Cobalt boat survey.
Very typical.

Gould 0738 wrote:
Oh, puh-lease. When I "participated" in the Yamaha survey, I had 50+
years of actual usage experience with various brands of outboard
motors. So, I presume, do many other purchasers. I doubt 225 hp
outboards of any brand are bought by firs-time boaters.

And you are going to be able to accurately compare the total ownership
experience of the brand new outboard you just got, with the Johnson Sea Horse
you sold 45 years ago?

I wasn't asked about "total ownership experience" in the survey I took.
I was asked why I bought a Yamaha, whether the dealer took the time to
explain the features, whether I got a shop tour, a complete demo,
whether I was "pleased" with the way the engine was running, with the
sound levels, with the fuel burn, with the performance, et cetera.

I certainly am in a position to "accurately compare" my treatment at the
dealership and the experiences with my first 50 hours of engine use with
similar experiences over the last 15 years or so.



You don't have enough time with the current product, and
you have forgotten about the old one.

Nope. Not only do I remember my experiences with the Mercs I owned over
the last decade or so, I have journals to remind me. Sorry. And while it
is true that at the time of the survey I only had 50 hours on the
engine, it was enough time to respond to early ownership questions.

The survey is not meant to do anything but compare consumers perception of
the product, but the survey is not biased towards any one manufacturer. If
that was so only one person would pay for the results, they want everyone to
pay, even if they did not come in favorable. That is the way for them to
improve the quality of the product, service and in educating the consumer as
to the features and benefits of the product.

I think you are confusing JD Powers with some other companies. As far as
Consumer Reports, they try to do an unbiased report, but because the people
doing the report are using an extremely limited number of products to test,
and the testers are not necessary knowledgeable about the product, most
people do not hold CR testing as accurate reflection of the real world use
of the product or of the quality control of the product being tested.


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Oh, puh-lease. When I "participated" in the Yamaha survey, I had 50+
years of actual usage experience with various brands of outboard
motors. So, I presume, do many other purchasers. I doubt 225 hp
outboards of any brand are bought by firs-time boaters.

And you are going to be able to accurately compare the total ownership
experience of the brand new outboard you just got, with the Johnson Sea
Horse
you sold 45 years ago? You don't have enough time with the current
product, and
you have forgotten about the old one. Besides, and this is an important
besides, people are going to use Powers survey to draw conclusions about
the
relative quality between products. Current products sold new. Do you
suppose
the brand of outboard you haven't owned since the 1960's is still the same
motor today? Not better or worse? If you own a 2003 Brand X motor, you
cannot
speak from first hand experience about owning a 2003 Brand Y.

Luckily, the survey doesn't ask you to compare your outboard with other
new
outboards- but the questions about how satisfied you might be can be posed
in
such a way that various manufacturers will do very well, based on
particular
product characteristics.

A number of the questions had to do with the dealer and how well or
how poorly it performed.


As always.