Say it isn't so. :^) They gotta be honest. See their page at
http://www.jdpower.com/cc/boats/about/about_ratings.asp It'll tell you
so!

-JimL

Note that they disclaim any responsibility for product ranking. "We're just the
messenger, reporting what the public says in surveys. We don't test, evaluate,
or offer our own opinions on anything."

Makes them very unlike Consumer Reports. Even CR has some problems.
They rely too heavily on historical trends being projected into the future and
do not allow for product improvements or design changes. (Example, one year CR
rated the Toyota Corrolla well above the Chevy Nova.
Chevy Nova had a poor repair history compared to Toyota, was one of the main
reasons. Ahem! That particular year the Chevy and the Toyota were coming down
the exact same assembly line at NUMMI motors in California, and the primary
difference was the piece of chromed plastic on the trunk and the dashboard that
said either "Nova" or "Corrolla".)

Anybody with an IQ 3 above a tree can design survey questions that are going to
get predictable responses.

(Extreme example):

Would you rather eat:

1. A nice, tender, fat, juicy, sizzling steak hot off the grill.

2. A limp bit of warm, wilted lettuce without dressing.

After asking the question 1000 times, we could allow the American Beef
Producers
Association to proclaim: "J.D. Pourless Survey proves America prefers beef for
dinner! Vegans in serious decline!"


(quote for Powers page)
What makes J.D. Power consumer ratings so different?

Since 1968, J.D. Power and Associates has been conducting quality and customer
satisfaction research based on survey responses from millions of consumers
worldwide. We do not rely on "expert opinion." Our product and service rankings
in no way reflect the opinions or preferences of the firm, and we do not
review, judge or test products and services ourselves.

We represent the voice of the customer by translating survey responses into
information that companies worldwide use to improve quality and customer
satisfaction, as well as to help consumers make better decisions. J.D. Power
and Associates has developed and maintains one of the largest, most
comprehensive historical customer satisfaction databases in existence, which
includes feedback on virtually all aspects of the shopping, buying, and product
and service ownership experience.

So, Gould, are you suggesting Yamaha, and Mercury didn't pay for inclusion in
the survey? How about the others? Think they didn't pay to play?

Results of the survey may indeed be inaccurate, but has Bayliner ever placed
well?

Butch

So, Gould, are you suggesting Yamaha, and Mercury didn't pay for inclusion in
the survey? How about the others? Think they didn't pay to play?

The survey company doesn't just wake up some morning, yawn and stretch, and
say,
"I think it's time to do outboard motors!"

What happens in these situations is that the survey company has salespeople who
are continuously pitching prospective clients about the incredible value that
the marketing research will bring to the company's business. In fact, the
survey company will be glad to conduct a survey in the prospect's industry for
the small sum of just $XXXXXX.XX.

The surveys are performed for individual, corporate, clients. The questions can
easily be shaped so that the answers are predictable.

Suppose that Anchor Company A agreed to have J.D. Pourboy Surveys do a survey
among boaters to determine what sort of ground tackle people prefer. J.D.
Pourboy Surveys will charge Anchor Company A a $10,000 retainer, $10 apiece for
mailing 4,000 surveys, and another $10k to tabulate the results. (The whole
project can be completed by two part time employees in about a month).

Now, when JD Pourboy shows up at the Anchor CO office wth survey in hand and
says, "Well, we ran the survey. Everybody says your gear is crap and they'd
rather use a concrete block on a kite string than
one of your anchors and rode"..........you suppose the Anchor Co is going to be
happy to write that check for the final $50k? No, no, no.

So, how does J.D. Pourboy make sure that Anchor Co come out mile ahead of the
competition? Anchor Co is the only maker of anchors that includes a buoy and a
release line as standard equipment. Questions are designed that get
affirmations from surfey takers that ease of release and the ability to know
the anchor's actual position are critically important and make a product
better.

Another technique is the not-so-blind mailing list. Anchor Co A has the names
and addresses of several thousand people who have bought a single Anchor Co A
hook, and even the names of several hundred people who have purchased two or
three over the years. (satisfied customers)
Using the mailing list provided by the Anchor Company itself as a major portion
of the survey mailing is a sure way to get a high percentage of favorable
responses.

When Consumer Reports does a study, you need to buy the magazine to get the
information. That's how they make their money. Every pay anything to see the
results of a JD Powers Survey? Ask yourself; "How do they make any money?"

Are you basing this on actual knowledge of the way J.D.Power opertes or are
you basing this on what could happen? In the automotive industry all
manufacturers buy them, but only a few get the top rating.


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
So, Gould, are you suggesting Yamaha, and Mercury didn't pay for
inclusion in
the survey? How about the others? Think they didn't pay to play?

The survey company doesn't just wake up some morning, yawn and stretch,
and
say,
"I think it's time to do outboard motors!"

What happens in these situations is that the survey company has
salespeople who
are continuously pitching prospective clients about the incredible value
that
the marketing research will bring to the company's business. In fact, the
survey company will be glad to conduct a survey in the prospect's industry
for
the small sum of just $XXXXXX.XX.

The surveys are performed for individual, corporate, clients. The
questions can
easily be shaped so that the answers are predictable.

Suppose that Anchor Company A agreed to have J.D. Pourboy Surveys do a
survey
among boaters to determine what sort of ground tackle people prefer. J.D.
Pourboy Surveys will charge Anchor Company A a $10,000 retainer, $10
apiece for
mailing 4,000 surveys, and another $10k to tabulate the results. (The
whole
project can be completed by two part time employees in about a month).

Now, when JD Pourboy shows up at the Anchor CO office wth survey in hand
and
says, "Well, we ran the survey. Everybody says your gear is crap and
they'd
rather use a concrete block on a kite string than
one of your anchors and rode"..........you suppose the Anchor Co is going
to be
happy to write that check for the final $50k? No, no, no.

So, how does J.D. Pourboy make sure that Anchor Co come out mile ahead of
the
competition? Anchor Co is the only maker of anchors that includes a buoy
and a
release line as standard equipment. Questions are designed that get
affirmations from surfey takers that ease of release and the ability to
know
the anchor's actual position are critically important and make a product
better.

Another technique is the not-so-blind mailing list. Anchor Co A has the
names
and addresses of several thousand people who have bought a single Anchor
Co A
hook, and even the names of several hundred people who have purchased two
or
three over the years. (satisfied customers)
Using the mailing list provided by the Anchor Company itself as a major
portion
of the survey mailing is a sure way to get a high percentage of favorable
responses.

When Consumer Reports does a study, you need to buy the magazine to get
the
information. That's how they make their money. Every pay anything to see
the
results of a JD Powers Survey? Ask yourself; "How do they make any money?"

Are you basing this on actual knowledge of the way J.D.Power opertes or are
you basing this on what could happen? In the automotive industry all
manufacturers buy them, but only a few get the top rating.

Aren't you the same guy that just made the wise ass personal remark?

See that black helicopter outside? It's got a rotor on top. Go sit on it. And
spin. :-)

Then when you're done getting even dizzier, I'll suggest an exercise for you
that will allow you, or any other thinking person, to draw a personal
conclusion. Wouldn't expect you to take the word of a black helicopterist.

Is that JD Power "survey" that supposedly proves Cobalt boats are the be all
and end all of everything afloat still around? If so, take a look at the
rankings list. As I recall,
there's a big, gold colored #1, or a blue ribbon, or some other abso-friggin
lutely non-objective bit of colorful artwork tagged to the Cobalt name. Is this
the way a scientific and objective study reports findings? Why is it that JD
Powers wants to be *absolutely certain* nobody misses Cobalt at the top of the
heap?

Then look at the other boats that didn't fare so well. Notice that the survey
doesn't use any real statistics, just a group of choices from "really good" to
"POS" How many points separate really good from POS. Is the scale standardized
between one question and the next, or one brand and the next? There is no way
to know.

For a good many people, this kind of presentation is completely believable. As
long as that remains the case, there is a bright future for the private survey
companies.

As far as the automotive industry goes, I worked in autos for about 20 years. I
was a partner in a new car dealership for a while, and I've served on marketing
committees for Chrysler and Subaru. I am very well acquainted with JD Powers
and how the whole survey business is operated.

I understand that surveys can be biased, I just have never heard that JD
Powers is considered a bias survey. Your comment is not consistent with
what I have read other places. Since companies not only want to know when
they are doing good, but what they need to do to improve, they would still
buy the survey to see the consumers perception of their product. While my
"black helicopter" comment was smart ass, it does seem to be an accurate of
your perception of JD Powers.


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Are you basing this on actual knowledge of the way J.D.Power opertes or
are
you basing this on what could happen? In the automotive industry all
manufacturers buy them, but only a few get the top rating.

Aren't you the same guy that just made the wise ass personal remark?

See that black helicopter outside? It's got a rotor on top. Go sit on it.
And
spin. :-)

Then when you're done getting even dizzier, I'll suggest an exercise for
you
that will allow you, or any other thinking person, to draw a personal
conclusion. Wouldn't expect you to take the word of a black helicopterist.

Is that JD Power "survey" that supposedly proves Cobalt boats are the be
all
and end all of everything afloat still around? If so, take a look at the
rankings list. As I recall,
there's a big, gold colored #1, or a blue ribbon, or some other
abso-friggin
lutely non-objective bit of colorful artwork tagged to the Cobalt name. Is
this
the way a scientific and objective study reports findings? Why is it that
JD
Powers wants to be *absolutely certain* nobody misses Cobalt at the top of
the
heap?

Then look at the other boats that didn't fare so well. Notice that the
survey
doesn't use any real statistics, just a group of choices from "really
good" to
"POS" How many points separate really good from POS. Is the scale
standardized
between one question and the next, or one brand and the next? There is no
way
to know.

For a good many people, this kind of presentation is completely
believable. As
long as that remains the case, there is a bright future for the private
survey
companies.

As far as the automotive industry goes, I worked in autos for about 20
years. I
was a partner in a new car dealership for a while, and I've served on
marketing
committees for Chrysler and Subaru. I am very well acquainted with JD
Powers
and how the whole survey business is operated.

If you go to JD Powers web site they have reviewed many different models and
products ( http://www.jdpower.com/cc ). If the survey was controlled by
the manufacturer, I would not have expected Sea Ray to come in number 1, and
Bayliner and Maxum to be next to the last, since they are all owned by the
same company. Yes, survey can be biased and yes companies can pay to get a
survey to say anything they want, but I don't think the facts back up your
claim that JD Powers can be bought to say anything you want.


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Are you basing this on actual knowledge of the way J.D.Power opertes or
are
you basing this on what could happen? In the automotive industry all
manufacturers buy them, but only a few get the top rating.

Aren't you the same guy that just made the wise ass personal remark?

See that black helicopter outside? It's got a rotor on top. Go sit on it.
And
spin. :-)

Then when you're done getting even dizzier, I'll suggest an exercise for
you
that will allow you, or any other thinking person, to draw a personal
conclusion. Wouldn't expect you to take the word of a black helicopterist.

Is that JD Power "survey" that supposedly proves Cobalt boats are the be
all
and end all of everything afloat still around? If so, take a look at the
rankings list. As I recall,
there's a big, gold colored #1, or a blue ribbon, or some other
abso-friggin
lutely non-objective bit of colorful artwork tagged to the Cobalt name. Is
this
the way a scientific and objective study reports findings? Why is it that
JD
Powers wants to be *absolutely certain* nobody misses Cobalt at the top of
the
heap?

Then look at the other boats that didn't fare so well. Notice that the
survey
doesn't use any real statistics, just a group of choices from "really
good" to
"POS" How many points separate really good from POS. Is the scale
standardized
between one question and the next, or one brand and the next? There is no
way
to know.

For a good many people, this kind of presentation is completely
believable. As
long as that remains the case, there is a bright future for the private
survey
companies.

As far as the automotive industry goes, I worked in autos for about 20
years. I
was a partner in a new car dealership for a while, and I've served on
marketing
committees for Chrysler and Subaru. I am very well acquainted with JD
Powers
and how the whole survey business is operated.

If you go to JD Powers web site they have reviewed many different models and
products ( http://www.jdpower.com/cc ). If the survey was controlled by
the manufacturer, I would not have expected Sea Ray to come in number 1, and
Bayliner and Maxum to be next to the last, since they are all owned by

Ok.

From the top.

JD Powers does not directly compare products. They collect and compare
"Customer Satisfaction Surveys". Can we agree on that? If so, on to point two.
If not, let me know.

Point two: None of the people they are surveying are directly comparing two or
more products either, (in most cases). They own a new brand X car, boat,
motorcycle, Frisbee, or what not and they get a survey. These people have no
idea based on actual usage experience how their product compares to the
competition.
(They probably think their product is either the best, or the best deal at the
time they buy it.) Can we agree that the survey respondents are, in the vast
majority of cases, not comparing two products? If so, on to point three. If
not, let me know.

Point Three: Powers assembles rankings based not on how the products actually
compare, but on how many bubbling, glowing, happy-owner responses it gets on
the various products. Can we agree on this? If so, on to point four.

Point Four: The nature of the questions that are asked in the survey will
influence
the type of responses that come in. Take
a product with a known defect in, say, the "on" switch. The failure rate is
50%, and the factory is hustling to do recalls as fast as possible. You want
that product to do poorly? You ask, "How would you rate the reliability of the
On switch?" You want that product to show pretty well? Don't ask about the
reliablity of the On switch, ask whether the factory and dealer have been quick
to respond when repairs are needed.

Throughout the entire process, JD Powers is creating a product and selling it.

Gould 0738 wrote:
So, Gould, are you suggesting Yamaha, and Mercury didn't pay for inclusion in
the survey? How about the others? Think they didn't pay to play?


The survey company doesn't just wake up some morning, yawn and stretch, and
say,
"I think it's time to do outboard motors!"

What happens in these situations is that the survey company has salespeople who
are continuously pitching prospective clients about the incredible value that
the marketing research will bring to the company's business. In fact, the
survey company will be glad to conduct a survey in the prospect's industry for
the small sum of just $XXXXXX.XX.

The surveys are performed for individual, corporate, clients. The questions can
easily be shaped so that the answers are predictable.

Suppose that Anchor Company A agreed to have J.D. Pourboy Surveys do a survey
among boaters to determine what sort of ground tackle people prefer. J.D.
Pourboy Surveys will charge Anchor Company A a $10,000 retainer, $10 apiece for
mailing 4,000 surveys, and another $10k to tabulate the results. (The whole
project can be completed by two part time employees in about a month).

Now, when JD Pourboy shows up at the Anchor CO office wth survey in hand and
says, "Well, we ran the survey. Everybody says your gear is crap and they'd
rather use a concrete block on a kite string than
one of your anchors and rode"..........you suppose the Anchor Co is going to be
happy to write that check for the final $50k? No, no, no.

So, how does J.D. Pourboy make sure that Anchor Co come out mile ahead of the
competition? Anchor Co is the only maker of anchors that includes a buoy and a
release line as standard equipment. Questions are designed that get
affirmations from surfey takers that ease of release and the ability to know
the anchor's actual position are critically important and make a product
better.

Another technique is the not-so-blind mailing list. Anchor Co A has the names
and addresses of several thousand people who have bought a single Anchor Co A
hook, and even the names of several hundred people who have purchased two or
three over the years. (satisfied customers)
Using the mailing list provided by the Anchor Company itself as a major portion
of the survey mailing is a sure way to get a high percentage of favorable
responses.

When Consumer Reports does a study, you need to buy the magazine to get the
information. That's how they make their money. Every pay anything to see the
results of a JD Powers Survey? Ask yourself; "How do they make any money?"



I participated in a Powers survey on my Yamahfa F225. It was
straightforward and met generally accepted, legit survey standards.

There were several ways to respond to different parts of the survey, on
a 1-20 scale and on an excellent to poor scale.

I see a lot of these kind of surveys and I even write some from time to
time. You're way over the top on this Chuck.

I participated in a Powers survey on my Yamahfa F225. It was
straightforward and met generally accepted, legit survey standards.

There were several ways to respond to different parts of the survey, on
a 1-20 scale and on an excellent to poor scale.

I see a lot of these kind of surveys and I even write some from time to
time. You're way over the top on this Chuck.


You think? I think you're so thrilled that JD Powers has come up with something
that refutes Karen Smith you'd chisel into the nearest rock if you had the
tools handy. :-)

You should know better, Harry. Particularly since you have "helped write"
similar surveys. The fish you catch depend entirely on the bait you use.