The only thing JD Powers actually reveals is which particular company
contracted for the survey this year (and therefore got to "influence" the
wording of the questions to
predetermine the outcome.)

Example: "If you were stuck on a desert Island with two outboards, and one was
a FICHT that had a full tank of fuel and the other was a non-Ficht that was
missing a prop, which motor would you hang off the back of your driftwood
raft?" Lo and behold, consumers prefer FICHT!

I'm not wading into the FICHT vs the world controversy. I'm not an outboard
guy. But I can tell you that a JD Powers survey is a private product that is
sold to industry by a private company. How many people would pay the bill in
the end unless the survey showed their company just stomping the field?

Say it isn't so. :^) They gotta be honest. See their page at
http://www.jdpower.com/cc/boats/about/about_ratings.asp It'll tell you
so!

-JimL


Gould 0738 wrote:
The only thing JD Powers actually reveals is which particular company
contracted for the survey this year (and therefore got to "influence" the
wording of the questions to
predetermine the outcome.)

Example: "If you were stuck on a desert Island with two outboards, and one was
a FICHT that had a full tank of fuel and the other was a non-Ficht that was
missing a prop, which motor would you hang off the back of your driftwood
raft?" Lo and behold, consumers prefer FICHT!

I'm not wading into the FICHT vs the world controversy. I'm not an outboard
guy. But I can tell you that a JD Powers survey is a private product that is
sold to industry by a private company. How many people would pay the bill in
the end unless the survey showed their company just stomping the field?

Say it isn't so. :^) They gotta be honest. See their page at
http://www.jdpower.com/cc/boats/about/about_ratings.asp It'll tell you
so!

-JimL

Note that they disclaim any responsibility for product ranking. "We're just the
messenger, reporting what the public says in surveys. We don't test, evaluate,
or offer our own opinions on anything."

Makes them very unlike Consumer Reports. Even CR has some problems.
They rely too heavily on historical trends being projected into the future and
do not allow for product improvements or design changes. (Example, one year CR
rated the Toyota Corrolla well above the Chevy Nova.
Chevy Nova had a poor repair history compared to Toyota, was one of the main
reasons. Ahem! That particular year the Chevy and the Toyota were coming down
the exact same assembly line at NUMMI motors in California, and the primary
difference was the piece of chromed plastic on the trunk and the dashboard that
said either "Nova" or "Corrolla".)

Anybody with an IQ 3 above a tree can design survey questions that are going to
get predictable responses.

(Extreme example):

Would you rather eat:

1. A nice, tender, fat, juicy, sizzling steak hot off the grill.

2. A limp bit of warm, wilted lettuce without dressing.

After asking the question 1000 times, we could allow the American Beef
Producers
Association to proclaim: "J.D. Pourless Survey proves America prefers beef for
dinner! Vegans in serious decline!"


(quote for Powers page)
What makes J.D. Power consumer ratings so different?

Since 1968, J.D. Power and Associates has been conducting quality and customer
satisfaction research based on survey responses from millions of consumers
worldwide. We do not rely on "expert opinion." Our product and service rankings
in no way reflect the opinions or preferences of the firm, and we do not
review, judge or test products and services ourselves.

We represent the voice of the customer by translating survey responses into
information that companies worldwide use to improve quality and customer
satisfaction, as well as to help consumers make better decisions. J.D. Power
and Associates has developed and maintains one of the largest, most
comprehensive historical customer satisfaction databases in existence, which
includes feedback on virtually all aspects of the shopping, buying, and product
and service ownership experience.

So, Gould, are you suggesting Yamaha, and Mercury didn't pay for inclusion in
the survey? How about the others? Think they didn't pay to play?

Results of the survey may indeed be inaccurate, but has Bayliner ever placed
well?

Butch

So, Gould, are you suggesting Yamaha, and Mercury didn't pay for inclusion in
the survey? How about the others? Think they didn't pay to play?

The survey company doesn't just wake up some morning, yawn and stretch, and
say,
"I think it's time to do outboard motors!"

What happens in these situations is that the survey company has salespeople who
are continuously pitching prospective clients about the incredible value that
the marketing research will bring to the company's business. In fact, the
survey company will be glad to conduct a survey in the prospect's industry for
the small sum of just $XXXXXX.XX.

The surveys are performed for individual, corporate, clients. The questions can
easily be shaped so that the answers are predictable.

Suppose that Anchor Company A agreed to have J.D. Pourboy Surveys do a survey
among boaters to determine what sort of ground tackle people prefer. J.D.
Pourboy Surveys will charge Anchor Company A a $10,000 retainer, $10 apiece for
mailing 4,000 surveys, and another $10k to tabulate the results. (The whole
project can be completed by two part time employees in about a month).

Now, when JD Pourboy shows up at the Anchor CO office wth survey in hand and
says, "Well, we ran the survey. Everybody says your gear is crap and they'd
rather use a concrete block on a kite string than
one of your anchors and rode"..........you suppose the Anchor Co is going to be
happy to write that check for the final $50k? No, no, no.

So, how does J.D. Pourboy make sure that Anchor Co come out mile ahead of the
competition? Anchor Co is the only maker of anchors that includes a buoy and a
release line as standard equipment. Questions are designed that get
affirmations from surfey takers that ease of release and the ability to know
the anchor's actual position are critically important and make a product
better.

Another technique is the not-so-blind mailing list. Anchor Co A has the names
and addresses of several thousand people who have bought a single Anchor Co A
hook, and even the names of several hundred people who have purchased two or
three over the years. (satisfied customers)
Using the mailing list provided by the Anchor Company itself as a major portion
of the survey mailing is a sure way to get a high percentage of favorable
responses.

When Consumer Reports does a study, you need to buy the magazine to get the
information. That's how they make their money. Every pay anything to see the
results of a JD Powers Survey? Ask yourself; "How do they make any money?"

Are you basing this on actual knowledge of the way J.D.Power opertes or are
you basing this on what could happen? In the automotive industry all
manufacturers buy them, but only a few get the top rating.


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
So, Gould, are you suggesting Yamaha, and Mercury didn't pay for
inclusion in
the survey? How about the others? Think they didn't pay to play?

The survey company doesn't just wake up some morning, yawn and stretch,
and
say,
"I think it's time to do outboard motors!"

What happens in these situations is that the survey company has
salespeople who
are continuously pitching prospective clients about the incredible value
that
the marketing research will bring to the company's business. In fact, the
survey company will be glad to conduct a survey in the prospect's industry
for
the small sum of just $XXXXXX.XX.

The surveys are performed for individual, corporate, clients. The
questions can
easily be shaped so that the answers are predictable.

Suppose that Anchor Company A agreed to have J.D. Pourboy Surveys do a
survey
among boaters to determine what sort of ground tackle people prefer. J.D.
Pourboy Surveys will charge Anchor Company A a $10,000 retainer, $10
apiece for
mailing 4,000 surveys, and another $10k to tabulate the results. (The
whole
project can be completed by two part time employees in about a month).

Now, when JD Pourboy shows up at the Anchor CO office wth survey in hand
and
says, "Well, we ran the survey. Everybody says your gear is crap and
they'd
rather use a concrete block on a kite string than
one of your anchors and rode"..........you suppose the Anchor Co is going
to be
happy to write that check for the final $50k? No, no, no.

So, how does J.D. Pourboy make sure that Anchor Co come out mile ahead of
the
competition? Anchor Co is the only maker of anchors that includes a buoy
and a
release line as standard equipment. Questions are designed that get
affirmations from surfey takers that ease of release and the ability to
know
the anchor's actual position are critically important and make a product
better.

Another technique is the not-so-blind mailing list. Anchor Co A has the
names
and addresses of several thousand people who have bought a single Anchor
Co A
hook, and even the names of several hundred people who have purchased two
or
three over the years. (satisfied customers)
Using the mailing list provided by the Anchor Company itself as a major
portion
of the survey mailing is a sure way to get a high percentage of favorable
responses.

When Consumer Reports does a study, you need to buy the magazine to get
the
information. That's how they make their money. Every pay anything to see
the
results of a JD Powers Survey? Ask yourself; "How do they make any money?"

Are you basing this on actual knowledge of the way J.D.Power opertes or are
you basing this on what could happen? In the automotive industry all
manufacturers buy them, but only a few get the top rating.

Aren't you the same guy that just made the wise ass personal remark?

See that black helicopter outside? It's got a rotor on top. Go sit on it. And
spin. :-)

Then when you're done getting even dizzier, I'll suggest an exercise for you
that will allow you, or any other thinking person, to draw a personal
conclusion. Wouldn't expect you to take the word of a black helicopterist.

Is that JD Power "survey" that supposedly proves Cobalt boats are the be all
and end all of everything afloat still around? If so, take a look at the
rankings list. As I recall,
there's a big, gold colored #1, or a blue ribbon, or some other abso-friggin
lutely non-objective bit of colorful artwork tagged to the Cobalt name. Is this
the way a scientific and objective study reports findings? Why is it that JD
Powers wants to be *absolutely certain* nobody misses Cobalt at the top of the
heap?

Then look at the other boats that didn't fare so well. Notice that the survey
doesn't use any real statistics, just a group of choices from "really good" to
"POS" How many points separate really good from POS. Is the scale standardized
between one question and the next, or one brand and the next? There is no way
to know.

For a good many people, this kind of presentation is completely believable. As
long as that remains the case, there is a bright future for the private survey
companies.

As far as the automotive industry goes, I worked in autos for about 20 years. I
was a partner in a new car dealership for a while, and I've served on marketing
committees for Chrysler and Subaru. I am very well acquainted with JD Powers
and how the whole survey business is operated.

Gould 0738 wrote:
So, Gould, are you suggesting Yamaha, and Mercury didn't pay for inclusion in
the survey? How about the others? Think they didn't pay to play?


The survey company doesn't just wake up some morning, yawn and stretch, and
say,
"I think it's time to do outboard motors!"

What happens in these situations is that the survey company has salespeople who
are continuously pitching prospective clients about the incredible value that
the marketing research will bring to the company's business. In fact, the
survey company will be glad to conduct a survey in the prospect's industry for
the small sum of just $XXXXXX.XX.

The surveys are performed for individual, corporate, clients. The questions can
easily be shaped so that the answers are predictable.

Suppose that Anchor Company A agreed to have J.D. Pourboy Surveys do a survey
among boaters to determine what sort of ground tackle people prefer. J.D.
Pourboy Surveys will charge Anchor Company A a $10,000 retainer, $10 apiece for
mailing 4,000 surveys, and another $10k to tabulate the results. (The whole
project can be completed by two part time employees in about a month).

Now, when JD Pourboy shows up at the Anchor CO office wth survey in hand and
says, "Well, we ran the survey. Everybody says your gear is crap and they'd
rather use a concrete block on a kite string than
one of your anchors and rode"..........you suppose the Anchor Co is going to be
happy to write that check for the final $50k? No, no, no.

So, how does J.D. Pourboy make sure that Anchor Co come out mile ahead of the
competition? Anchor Co is the only maker of anchors that includes a buoy and a
release line as standard equipment. Questions are designed that get
affirmations from surfey takers that ease of release and the ability to know
the anchor's actual position are critically important and make a product
better.

Another technique is the not-so-blind mailing list. Anchor Co A has the names
and addresses of several thousand people who have bought a single Anchor Co A
hook, and even the names of several hundred people who have purchased two or
three over the years. (satisfied customers)
Using the mailing list provided by the Anchor Company itself as a major portion
of the survey mailing is a sure way to get a high percentage of favorable
responses.

When Consumer Reports does a study, you need to buy the magazine to get the
information. That's how they make their money. Every pay anything to see the
results of a JD Powers Survey? Ask yourself; "How do they make any money?"



I participated in a Powers survey on my Yamahfa F225. It was
straightforward and met generally accepted, legit survey standards.

There were several ways to respond to different parts of the survey, on
a 1-20 scale and on an excellent to poor scale.

I see a lot of these kind of surveys and I even write some from time to
time. You're way over the top on this Chuck.

I participated in a Powers survey on my Yamahfa F225. It was
straightforward and met generally accepted, legit survey standards.

There were several ways to respond to different parts of the survey, on
a 1-20 scale and on an excellent to poor scale.

I see a lot of these kind of surveys and I even write some from time to
time. You're way over the top on this Chuck.


You think? I think you're so thrilled that JD Powers has come up with something
that refutes Karen Smith you'd chisel into the nearest rock if you had the
tools handy. :-)

You should know better, Harry. Particularly since you have "helped write"
similar surveys. The fish you catch depend entirely on the bait you use.

Harry Krause wrote:
Gould 0738 wrote:

So, Gould, are you suggesting Yamaha, and Mercury didn't pay for
inclusion in
the survey? How about the others? Think they didn't pay to play?



The survey company doesn't just wake up some morning, yawn and
stretch, and
say,
"I think it's time to do outboard motors!"

What happens in these situations is that the survey company has
salespeople who
are continuously pitching prospective clients about the incredible
value that
the marketing research will bring to the company's business. In fact, the
survey company will be glad to conduct a survey in the prospect's
industry for
the small sum of just $XXXXXX.XX.

The surveys are performed for individual, corporate, clients. The
questions can
easily be shaped so that the answers are predictable.

Suppose that Anchor Company A agreed to have J.D. Pourboy Surveys do a
survey
among boaters to determine what sort of ground tackle people prefer. J.D.
Pourboy Surveys will charge Anchor Company A a $10,000 retainer, $10
apiece for
mailing 4,000 surveys, and another $10k to tabulate the results. (The
whole
project can be completed by two part time employees in about a month).

Now, when JD Pourboy shows up at the Anchor CO office wth survey in
hand and
says, "Well, we ran the survey. Everybody says your gear is crap and
they'd
rather use a concrete block on a kite string than
one of your anchors and rode"..........you suppose the Anchor Co is
going to be
happy to write that check for the final $50k? No, no, no.

So, how does J.D. Pourboy make sure that Anchor Co come out mile ahead
of the
competition? Anchor Co is the only maker of anchors that includes a
buoy and a
release line as standard equipment. Questions are designed that get
affirmations from surfey takers that ease of release and the ability
to know
the anchor's actual position are critically important and make a product
better.

Another technique is the not-so-blind mailing list. Anchor Co A has
the names
and addresses of several thousand people who have bought a single
Anchor Co A
hook, and even the names of several hundred people who have purchased
two or
three over the years. (satisfied customers)
Using the mailing list provided by the Anchor Company itself as a
major portion
of the survey mailing is a sure way to get a high percentage of favorable
responses.

When Consumer Reports does a study, you need to buy the magazine to
get the
information. That's how they make their money. Every pay anything to
see the
results of a JD Powers Survey? Ask yourself; "How do they make any
money?"



I participated in a Powers survey on my Yamahfa F225. It was
straightforward and met generally accepted, legit survey standards.

Lies upon lies nothing more!! Harry does not & probably never will
"own" any OB nor boat. BS absolute BS he slimes his way into the graces
of real boat owners, then pretends it's "his" boat till they shop him &
tell him to **** off. It happened very quickly with the lie lobster boat
but because the real owner of the Parker is obviously a busy bloke it's
taking longer this time, so the liar of all time has a problem he can't
explain why the boat isn't used, so he reverts back to his original lie
that he's using "his" other lie the custom naval architect designed &
custom built 36ft lobster boat.


There were several ways to respond to different parts of the survey, on
a 1-20 scale and on an excellent to poor scale.

Gee he's seen the survey form?? probably not!! more likely it's been in
a boating magazine where he gathers many of his lies.

I see a lot of these kind of surveys and I even write some from time to
time. You're way over the top on this Chuck.

Another "I am" lie from Harry!!! Is there no end to his BS!!! He can't
write, has never written nor understood anything here, he just pastes
deceptive lefty articles or plagiarises others in the NG. He's near
illiterate proving once & for all the reason he can't substantiate any
of his education lies from 3 yrs of med to 4 degrees 2 masters is
because it's ALL untrue. I have to comment this time even Chuck, an
actual real writer, can't stay silent, good on ya Chuckster.

K