On Sun, 4 Jul 2004 20:59:57 UTC,
(Art Engel) wrote:

Stefan Lloyd wrote:

o Rule 16.2 has been modified (again!) so that it only applies when
a port boat is ducking a starboard boat.

This would seem a major change. Consider port crossing a short distance
ahead of starboard. Under RRS2001 starboard cannot start to pinch up to
make life harder for port. Under RRS2005 they can. Given that the
intention of the 1997 rewrite was to make collisions less likely, I
don't understand this one.

No change under RRS 2005-08. Under RRS 2001-04 S pinching enough so
that P can no longer keep clear breaks rule 16.1. Since 16.1 won't
change under RRS 2005-08 S will still break 16.1.


If that is the case, why is 16.2 needed at all?

Some (including me) are not convinced that it is needed. But here is
the rationale.

When P is crossing ahead of S and S changes course the only thing that
P can do is crash-tack - that is not seamanlike so S broke 16.1 since
P had no way to keep clear in a seamanlike manner. No need for 16.2 in
that instance.

When P is aiming to pass behind S and S changes course P can easily
turn down more, a relatively seamanlike thing to do. Hence, some would
argue that S does not break 16.1. 16.2 makes clear that S breaks a
rule when she changes course and P must immediately respond.

And so, 8 years later, we are actually back to the provisions of the
old Rule 35!.....

It wasn't boken but they frixed it anyway.....


Geoff

Art Engel wrote:
Stefan wrote:
says...


o Rule 18 now applies in some circumstances when both boats tack
around a mark. (the current rule states that if the proper course
for either boat is to tack, rule 18 is out. The new rule says one
but not both.) I think this needs to be read carefully, because
at first read it appears to say more than it does. My initial
take is that this change only makes a practical difference in a
situation where two boats are on opposite tacks and the proper
course for both of them is to tack. This would seem to be an odd
occurrence (i.e. boats in different races that share a common mark).
I welcome more discussion on this - I'm not sure I've read it
correctly...


Where there would be a change is where both boats are on starboard
tack (at a leave-to-port windward mark) and neither boat can fetch the
mark. Under RRS 2001-04 rule 18 cannot apply since both need to tack.
Under RRS 2005-08 rule 18 can apply since both must tack. This is an
inconsequential change in my view.


I don't follow your reasoning here. Since both boats are on
starboard, they're not on opposite tacks. I don't see any changes to
rule 18 at all that affect overlapped boats on the same tack.

The reason for the change was a rare situation at leeward marks. Two
boats enter the zone on port but the only proper courses for the next
mark require both to tack immediately after passing the mark. Under
RRS 2001-04 wording rule 18 wouldn't apply even though except for the
tack after the mark it would be a typical rounding. Under RRS 2005-08
rule 18 will apply since both boats must tack to sail a proper course.

Again, you've lost me. Two boats enter the zone on port. What part
of RRS2001 says that rule 18 doesn't apply?


--
// Walt
//
//

Walt wrote:

o Rule 18 now applies in some circumstances when both boats tack
around a mark. (the current rule states that if the proper course
for either boat is to tack, rule 18 is out. The new rule says one
but not both.) I think this needs to be read carefully, because
at first read it appears to say more than it does. My initial
take is that this change only makes a practical difference in a
situation where two boats are on opposite tacks and the proper
course for both of them is to tack. This would seem to be an odd
occurrence (i.e. boats in different races that share a common mark).
I welcome more discussion on this - I'm not sure I've read it
correctly...


Where there would be a change is where both boats are on starboard
tack (at a leave-to-port windward mark) and neither boat can fetch the
mark. Under RRS 2001-04 rule 18 cannot apply since both need to tack.
Under RRS 2005-08 rule 18 can apply since both must tack. This is an
inconsequential change in my view.


I don't follow your reasoning here. Since both boats are on
starboard, they're not on opposite tacks. I don't see any changes to
rule 18 at all that affect overlapped boats on the same tack.

The reason for the change was a rare situation at leeward marks. Two
boats enter the zone on port but the only proper courses for the next
mark require both to tack immediately after passing the mark. Under
RRS 2001-04 wording rule 18 wouldn't apply even though except for the
tack after the mark it would be a typical rounding. Under RRS 2005-08
rule 18 will apply since both boats must tack to sail a proper course.

Again, you've lost me. Two boats enter the zone on port. What part
of RRS2001 says that rule 18 doesn't apply?

I lost you because I wrote too quickly and was WRONG. The situation is
relevant when boats are on OPPOSITE tacks, not the same tack (as you
pointed out). Sorry for the confusion.

The second clause of 18.1(b) is a bit obscure. The clause (when the
*proper course* for one or both of them to round or pass the *mark* or
*obstruction* is to tack) is intended to cover the situation where
boats are on a leg to a reach mark and one boat has misjudged the mark
(for example because of current) and must sail for a while on the
other tack in order to round. As a result, that boat will be sailing
in to the mark on starboard tack while the other boat is approaching
the mark on port tack and will simply tack around the mark. Since the
boats are not on a beat to windward, the first clause of 18.1(b) does
not apply and without the second clause rule 18 would apply.

See http://www.racingrules.org/misc/18-1(b)_2ndclause.gif

The problem some folks (not me) saw in the 2001-04 rule occurred when
two boats were coming in to a leeward mark (on OPPOSITE tacks) and the
only proper course for both boats was to tack immediately after the
mark. Since the proper course for both would be to tack rule 18
wouldn't apply between the boats at that leeward mark. NOT what was
intended but a somewhat rare circumstance.

[I will now point out the problem with the 2005-08 rule. If the boat
that misjudged the reach mark then misjudges the layline and tacks
short then both boats must tack (P once, S twice more) and rule 18
will apply between them. Not intended, but again a rare circumstance.]

Art Engel
e-mail: artengel123 (at) earthlink.net
Web: http://www.racingrules.org

Art Engel wrote:

o Rule 18 now applies in some circumstances when both boats tack
around a mark. (the current rule states that if the proper course
for either boat is to tack, rule 18 is out. The new rule says one
but not both.) I think this needs to be read carefully, because
at first read it appears to say more than it does. My initial
take is that this change only makes a practical difference in a
situation where two boats are on opposite tacks and the proper
course for both of them is to tack. This would seem to be an odd
occurrence (i.e. boats in different races that share a common mark).
I welcome more discussion on this - I'm not sure I've read it
correctly...

Would this be a relevant situation? Windward mark to be rounded to port.
Starboard tacker is short of the layline so both boats must tack. Port
tacker approaches on collision course. Under RRS2001 rule 18 does not
apply. Under RRS2005 it does. Personally I think the situation under
RRS2001 is better because it is unclear which is the "inside" boat when
close-hauled on opposite tacks.

In your example, since the boats are on opposite tacks on a beat to
windward rule 18 does not apply under either RRS 2001-04 or RRS
2005-08. No change.

Where there would be a change is where both boats are on starboard
tack (at a leave-to-port windward mark) and neither boat can fetch the
mark. Under RRS 2001-04 rule 18 cannot apply since both need to tack.
Under RRS 2005-08 rule 18 can apply since both must tack. This is an
inconsequential change in my view.

The reason for the change was a rare situation at leeward marks. Two
boats enter the zone on port but the only proper courses for the next
mark require both to tack immediately after passing the mark. Under
RRS 2001-04 wording rule 18 wouldn't apply even though except for the
tack after the mark it would be a typical rounding. Under RRS 2005-08
rule 18 will apply since both boats must tack to sail a proper course.

In the two paragraphs above I refer to both boats on the same tack.
That is WRONG - I should have said the boats were on opposite tacks.
See my separate posting in answer to Walt.

Art Engel
e-mail: artengel123 (at) earthlink.net
Web: http://www.racingrules.org

Walt wrote:

Now available online at
http://makeashorterlink.com/?L1F1215B8


Thanks Walt! Here is the link that you can download the entire PDF from
without having to download by sections (still on sailing.org website):

http://www.sailing.org/menu.asp?Menu...y1/kIk?snNv~xK

[http://makeashorterlink.com/?Q307266B8]

Scroll down to the bottom of the page and click on Racing Rules of
Sailing 2005 - 2008 (Download the complete Racing Rules of Sailing 2005
- 2008. Please note that this is a large file (887KB) and will take some
time to download. Smaller sections of the RRS can be downloaded
separately.) for the entire 887KB doc.