Hurricane Irma - After Action Report
 

On Wednesday, September 13, 2017 at 1:30:13 PM UTC-5, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 9/13/17 2:08 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 9/13/2017 11:49 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 9/13/17 11:37 AM, justan wrote:
Keyser Soze Wrote in message:
On 9/13/17 8:32 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 9/13/2017 8:22 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 9/13/17 7:58 AM, justan wrote:


Governor Rick Scott has been getting high marks for his efforts to
Â*Â* prepare Florida for the disaster.


Does that make up for the huge criminal enterprise Scott ran prior to
being governor? You know, the one that earned a $1.7 billion fine for
Medicare fraud?

Florida is not prepared. If Scott really were concerned about
Florida,
he'd be spearheading a statewide effort to stop development in
low-lying coastal areas, and begin a process of condemning and
tearing
down susceptible structures in those areas, outlawing mobile homes,
and slowing growth generally. Florida is going to get hit again and
again and again by these large summer and fall hurricanes, and
everyone is going to pace the price for them.

We have a low-lying area a few miles north of here, called Chesapeake
Beach, a quaint little nameplace full of old cottages and a growing
amount of new construction. Nice place, except when Chesapeake Bay
overflows and floods homes and businesses for four blocks up from the
high water line. That area is a foot or two above sea level. Maybe..
Why construction in these places is allowed is beyond my
comprehension.

I think the national flood insurance program ought to be dropped and
replaced by a state-by-state funded program for those states that
want
it. Let Floridians, Texas, Louisianians, et cetera, pay the price for
their folly of never-ending construction along low-lying waterfronts,
typically built on "reclaimed" land. Alternately, if the states won't
provide flood insurance and mortage companies won't finance homes
without flood insurance, well, that eventually will solve the
problem.

Oh, we're close to the Bay, but...we're about 115' above sea level
here. If the Bay floods us, it is the end of the world.


You won't flood but a direct hit of a Cat 4 or 5 hurricane would do
some
serious damage to your famous red barn.



Flooding of low-lying seashore areas during a hurricane from Florida to
Texas is pretty much inevitable. Cat 4 or 5 hurricane winds up here
would be a rarity, but a possibility. We have some large trees that if
uprooted could certainly smash through the roof. We've had a few storms
with high winds...70-90 mph...but so far our big trees have survived..
I've had a few cut down over the years, but we still have a few that
make me nervous.

The point is, federal flood insurance should NOT be available to
property owners in shore areas that keep getting hit. The states should
be restricting growth in those areas and funding state flood insurance.
Building a home in the Keys, for example, is the height of arrogance
and
stupidity.


Since you no longer own waterfront property, no one should. Eh?
Â* You' ll never change.
x


Your assumption about waterfront property is, of course, wrong. But
the homesite is so high above the water level, we'd all be in arks
before it flooded.


You believe in the "Ark" story?Â* Wow.




As a figure of speech. As an historical "fact," of course not. Oh,
Biblical conflicts. Adam and Eve had three kids, Cain, Abel and Seth.
See a problem with that? Was that really "corrected" later in Genesis?
And did Cain really marry his sister? What a laugh.

Genesis 5:4

Hurricane Irma - After Action Report
 

John H Wrote in message:
On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 14:35:20 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote:

On 9/13/17 2:14 PM, justan wrote:
John H Wrote in message:
On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 13:31:00 -0400, Keyser Söze wrote:

justan wrote:
Keyser Soze Wrote in message:
On 9/13/17 11:37 AM, justan wrote:
Keyser Soze Wrote in message:
On 9/13/17 8:32 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 9/13/2017 8:22 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 9/13/17 7:58 AM, justan wrote:


Governor Rick Scott has been getting high marks for his efforts to
prepare Florida for the disaster.


Does that make up for the huge criminal enterprise Scott ran prior to
being governor? You know, the one that earned a $1.7 billion fine for
Medicare fraud?

Florida is not prepared. If Scott really were concerned about Florida,
he'd be spearheading a statewide effort to stop development in
low-lying coastal areas, and begin a process of condemning and tearing
down susceptible structures in those areas, outlawing mobile homes,
and slowing growth generally. Florida is going to get hit again and
again and again by these large summer and fall hurricanes, and
everyone is going to pace the price for them.

We have a low-lying area a few miles north of here, called Chesapeake
Beach, a quaint little nameplace full of old cottages and a growing
amount of new construction. Nice place, except when Chesapeake Bay
overflows and floods homes and businesses for four blocks up from the
high water line. That area is a foot or two above sea level. Maybe.
Why construction in these places is allowed is beyond my comprehension.

I think the national flood insurance program ought to be dropped and
replaced by a state-by-state funded program for those states that want
it. Let Floridians, Texas, Louisianians, et cetera, pay the price for
their folly of never-ending construction along low-lying waterfronts,
typically built on "reclaimed" land. Alternately, if the states won't
provide flood insurance and mortage companies won't finance homes
without flood insurance, well, that eventually will solve the problem.

Oh, we're close to the Bay, but...we're about 115' above sea level
here. If the Bay floods us, it is the end of the world.


You won't flood but a direct hit of a Cat 4 or 5 hurricane would do some
serious damage to your famous red barn.



Flooding of low-lying seashore areas during a hurricane from Florida to
Texas is pretty much inevitable. Cat 4 or 5 hurricane winds up here
would be a rarity, but a possibility. We have some large trees that if
uprooted could certainly smash through the roof. We've had a few storms
with high winds...70-90 mph...but so far our big trees have survived.
I've had a few cut down over the years, but we still have a few that
make me nervous.

The point is, federal flood insurance should NOT be available to
property owners in shore areas that keep getting hit. The states should
be restricting growth in those areas and funding state flood insurance.
Building a home in the Keys, for example, is the height of arrogance and
stupidity.


Since you no longer own waterfront property, no one should. Eh?
You' ll never change.
x


Your assumption about waterfront property is, of course, wrong. But the
homesite is so high above the water level, we'd all be in arks before it
flooded.


You never owned waterfront property?


If only you had a brain...


Sore spot?


Remember him complaining of jet skis buzzing his property?


That's right, they did run up and down the ICW near us. But the real
"annoyers" were the several airboats. Our current "waterfront" property
isn't plagued with either...just canoes, kayaks, and once in a great
while a small electric outboard boat, but only when the water on the
river is high. Too many boulders in the river near our spot.

He needs to back out of this discussion before he sees his boo-boo.


His former house in Jacksonville is about 4 miles from the nearest
navigable waterway.
--
x


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

Hurricane Irma - After Action Report
 

On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 08:22:48 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

On 9/13/17 7:58 AM, justan wrote:


Governor Rick Scott has been getting high marks for his efforts to
prepare Florida for the disaster.


Does that make up for the huge criminal enterprise Scott ran prior to
being governor? You know, the one that earned a $1.7 billion fine for
Medicare fraud?

Florida is not prepared. If Scott really were concerned about Florida,
he'd be spearheading a statewide effort to stop development in low-lying
coastal areas, and begin a process of condemning and tearing down
susceptible structures in those areas, outlawing mobile homes, and
slowing growth generally. Florida is going to get hit again and again
and again by these large summer and fall hurricanes, and everyone is
going to pace the price for them.

We have a low-lying area a few miles north of here, called Chesapeake
Beach, a quaint little nameplace full of old cottages and a growing
amount of new construction. Nice place, except when Chesapeake Bay
overflows and floods homes and businesses for four blocks up from the
high water line. That area is a foot or two above sea level. Maybe. Why
construction in these places is allowed is beyond my comprehension.

I think the national flood insurance program ought to be dropped and
replaced by a state-by-state funded program for those states that want
it. Let Floridians, Texas, Louisianians, et cetera, pay the price for
their folly of never-ending construction along low-lying waterfronts,
typically built on "reclaimed" land. Alternately, if the states won't
provide flood insurance and mortage companies won't finance homes
without flood insurance, well, that eventually will solve the problem.

Oh, we're close to the Bay, but...we're about 115' above sea level here.
If the Bay floods us, it is the end of the world.

Florida does have strict rules about rebuilding after a flood or
really any renovation for any reason that involves more that 50% of
the assessed value of the building (not the lot).
It all has to be done at the FEMA height. (14' above the datum plane
near water)
That pretty much eliminates most additions or even serious repairs
without raising the house or tearing it down. A guy in our
neighborhood just bough a $460k house and immediately tore it down,
just because of insurance cost and limits on remodeling.

Hurricane Irma - After Action Report
 

On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 08:32:00 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 9/13/2017 8:22 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 9/13/17 7:58 AM, justan wrote:


Governor Rick Scott has been getting high marks for his efforts to
Â* prepare Florida for the disaster.


Does that make up for the huge criminal enterprise Scott ran prior to
being governor? You know, the one that earned a $1.7 billion fine for
Medicare fraud?

Florida is not prepared. If Scott really were concerned about Florida,
he'd be spearheading a statewide effort to stop development in low-lying
coastal areas, and begin a process of condemning and tearing down
susceptible structures in those areas, outlawing mobile homes, and
slowing growth generally. Florida is going to get hit again and again
and again by these large summer and fall hurricanes, and everyone is
going to pace the price for them.

We have a low-lying area a few miles north of here, called Chesapeake
Beach, a quaint little nameplace full of old cottages and a growing
amount of new construction. Nice place, except when Chesapeake Bay
overflows and floods homes and businesses for four blocks up from the
high water line. That area is a foot or two above sea level. Maybe. Why
construction in these places is allowed is beyond my comprehension.

I think the national flood insurance program ought to be dropped and
replaced by a state-by-state funded program for those states that want
it. Let Floridians, Texas, Louisianians, et cetera, pay the price for
their folly of never-ending construction along low-lying waterfronts,
typically built on "reclaimed" land. Alternately, if the states won't
provide flood insurance and mortage companies won't finance homes
without flood insurance, well, that eventually will solve the problem.

Oh, we're close to the Bay, but...we're about 115' above sea level here.
If the Bay floods us, it is the end of the world.


You won't flood but a direct hit of a Cat 4 or 5 hurricane would do some
serious damage to your famous red barn.


The northern building code would not even protect most houses from a
strong Cat 1 or a 2.
When I was there they built to 80 mph but I assume they may have upped
that a little. Even so there are plenty of 30+ year old buildings
built to that code. There was absolutely zero uplift protection beyond
gravity. You were not even required to put nuts on the J bolts in
block headers when you mounted the sill plate for the stick built
parts. There is also no tie beam and no steel in the block. They
didn't even have steel in the footer. The J bolt is just mortared into
one of the block cores.
We have 4 #5 rebars in the tie beam and the top 16" is solid concrete,
that tie beam is doweled with a #5 every 4 feet and at every opening
in a grouted cell and the "hooks", top and bottom get tied to the tie
beam steel and the footer steel.

Hurricane Irma - After Action Report
 

On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 09:30:47 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

But I don't think
first responders should be sent out and risk their lives in the height
of a dangerous storm to save those too stupid to save themselves after
clear and repeated warnings were given.

They don't here. They stay in the firehouse or wherever until the
storm is over.

Hurricane Irma - After Action Report
 

On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 11:49:41 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:


Your assumption about waterfront property is, of course, wrong. But the
homesite is so high above the water level, we'd all be in arks before it
flooded.

Don't get too cocky, My neighborhood flooded in Clinton during Agnes
and that is a very high elevation. It didn't get me but there were a
lot of people who were not that lucky. There was a 3' deep stream
flowing across Buckler Road just because there was a little dip there
and the sheet flow from about 10" of rain in a few hours.

Hurricane Irma - After Action Report
 

On 9/18/2017 1:44 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 08:32:00 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 9/13/2017 8:22 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 9/13/17 7:58 AM, justan wrote:


Governor Rick Scott has been getting high marks for his efforts to
Â* prepare Florida for the disaster.


Does that make up for the huge criminal enterprise Scott ran prior to
being governor? You know, the one that earned a $1.7 billion fine for
Medicare fraud?

Florida is not prepared. If Scott really were concerned about Florida,
he'd be spearheading a statewide effort to stop development in low-lying
coastal areas, and begin a process of condemning and tearing down
susceptible structures in those areas, outlawing mobile homes, and
slowing growth generally. Florida is going to get hit again and again
and again by these large summer and fall hurricanes, and everyone is
going to pace the price for them.

We have a low-lying area a few miles north of here, called Chesapeake
Beach, a quaint little nameplace full of old cottages and a growing
amount of new construction. Nice place, except when Chesapeake Bay
overflows and floods homes and businesses for four blocks up from the
high water line. That area is a foot or two above sea level. Maybe. Why
construction in these places is allowed is beyond my comprehension.

I think the national flood insurance program ought to be dropped and
replaced by a state-by-state funded program for those states that want
it. Let Floridians, Texas, Louisianians, et cetera, pay the price for
their folly of never-ending construction along low-lying waterfronts,
typically built on "reclaimed" land. Alternately, if the states won't
provide flood insurance and mortage companies won't finance homes
without flood insurance, well, that eventually will solve the problem.

Oh, we're close to the Bay, but...we're about 115' above sea level here.
If the Bay floods us, it is the end of the world.


You won't flood but a direct hit of a Cat 4 or 5 hurricane would do some
serious damage to your famous red barn.


The northern building code would not even protect most houses from a
strong Cat 1 or a 2.
When I was there they built to 80 mph but I assume they may have upped
that a little. Even so there are plenty of 30+ year old buildings
built to that code. There was absolutely zero uplift protection beyond
gravity. You were not even required to put nuts on the J bolts in
block headers when you mounted the sill plate for the stick built
parts. There is also no tie beam and no steel in the block. They
didn't even have steel in the footer. The J bolt is just mortared into
one of the block cores.
We have 4 #5 rebars in the tie beam and the top 16" is solid concrete,
that tie beam is doweled with a #5 every 4 feet and at every opening
in a grouted cell and the "hooks", top and bottom get tied to the tie
beam steel and the footer steel.



Massachusetts has three zones for codes regarding wind. Zone One is the
western part of the state and the code is for 70 mph winds. Zone Two
covers the middle portion of the state and has an 80 mph wind code.
Zone Three (where we are) is the eastern part of the state and has 90
mph codes. All are as measured 30 feet above ground.

Code issues we have to deal with that you don't is snow and drift snow
loading on the roof and can be very complicated, factoring type of
roofline, intersecting roof lines, etc. I was just looking at the
equations used to determine the load requirements and got a headache.

Hurricane Irma - After Action Report
 

On 9/18/2017 1:44 AM, wrote:



The northern building code would not even protect most houses from a
strong Cat 1 or a 2.
When I was there they built to 80 mph but I assume they may have upped
that a little. Even so there are plenty of 30+ year old buildings
built to that code. There was absolutely zero uplift protection beyond
gravity. You were not even required to put nuts on the J bolts in
block headers when you mounted the sill plate for the stick built
parts. There is also no tie beam and no steel in the block. They
didn't even have steel in the footer. The J bolt is just mortared into
one of the block cores.
We have 4 #5 rebars in the tie beam and the top 16" is solid concrete,
that tie beam is doweled with a #5 every 4 feet and at every opening
in a grouted cell and the "hooks", top and bottom get tied to the tie
beam steel and the footer steel.


Your post caused me to think of the old farmhouse that we used to own
and had my mother living in. I doubt any codes existed when it and the
accompanying barn was built in 1800. All the support beams and rafters
in the barn where pegged together ... no nails or screws. The vertical
beams where the trunks from large cedar trees. We had a bulding
preservation expert who takes care of the buildings in "Plimouth
Plantation" (a local tourist attraction in Plymouth) visit us and he
explained to me that back in those days the barn was built like the
upside-down hull of a wooden ship, mainly due to the early ship building
history of the area.

We had the roof replaced on both the house and barn and when they tore
off the old shingles there was no plywood like you would expect to see.
The roof consisted of wood planks instead, with huge gaps between the
planks in many places. Amazing that it never leaked.

That old house and barn has withstood many a hurricane, blizzards and
storms with nothing close to meeting modern building codes.

Hurricane Irma - After Action Report
 

On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 08:22:48 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

Florida is not prepared. If Scott really were concerned about Florida,
he'd be spearheading a statewide effort to stop development in low-lying
coastal areas, and begin a process of condemning and tearing down
susceptible structures in those areas, outlawing mobile homes, and
slowing growth generally.

===

That would be political suicide in a state that has millions of people
living in coastal areas. Many of us moved here exactly for the
opportunity to live on waterfront property. It's a calculated risk
that require constant juggling, just like for the people who choose to
live in the Caribbean.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com

Hurricane Irma - After Action Report
 

On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 07:19:06 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 9/18/2017 1:44 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 08:32:00 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 9/13/2017 8:22 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 9/13/17 7:58 AM, justan wrote:


Governor Rick Scott has been getting high marks for his efforts to
Â* prepare Florida for the disaster.


Does that make up for the huge criminal enterprise Scott ran prior to
being governor? You know, the one that earned a $1.7 billion fine for
Medicare fraud?

Florida is not prepared. If Scott really were concerned about Florida,
he'd be spearheading a statewide effort to stop development in low-lying
coastal areas, and begin a process of condemning and tearing down
susceptible structures in those areas, outlawing mobile homes, and
slowing growth generally. Florida is going to get hit again and again
and again by these large summer and fall hurricanes, and everyone is
going to pace the price for them.

We have a low-lying area a few miles north of here, called Chesapeake
Beach, a quaint little nameplace full of old cottages and a growing
amount of new construction. Nice place, except when Chesapeake Bay
overflows and floods homes and businesses for four blocks up from the
high water line. That area is a foot or two above sea level. Maybe. Why
construction in these places is allowed is beyond my comprehension.

I think the national flood insurance program ought to be dropped and
replaced by a state-by-state funded program for those states that want
it. Let Floridians, Texas, Louisianians, et cetera, pay the price for
their folly of never-ending construction along low-lying waterfronts,
typically built on "reclaimed" land. Alternately, if the states won't
provide flood insurance and mortage companies won't finance homes
without flood insurance, well, that eventually will solve the problem.

Oh, we're close to the Bay, but...we're about 115' above sea level here.
If the Bay floods us, it is the end of the world.


You won't flood but a direct hit of a Cat 4 or 5 hurricane would do some
serious damage to your famous red barn.


The northern building code would not even protect most houses from a
strong Cat 1 or a 2.
When I was there they built to 80 mph but I assume they may have upped
that a little. Even so there are plenty of 30+ year old buildings
built to that code. There was absolutely zero uplift protection beyond
gravity. You were not even required to put nuts on the J bolts in
block headers when you mounted the sill plate for the stick built
parts. There is also no tie beam and no steel in the block. They
didn't even have steel in the footer. The J bolt is just mortared into
one of the block cores.
We have 4 #5 rebars in the tie beam and the top 16" is solid concrete,
that tie beam is doweled with a #5 every 4 feet and at every opening
in a grouted cell and the "hooks", top and bottom get tied to the tie
beam steel and the footer steel.



Massachusetts has three zones for codes regarding wind. Zone One is the
western part of the state and the code is for 70 mph winds. Zone Two
covers the middle portion of the state and has an 80 mph wind code.
Zone Three (where we are) is the eastern part of the state and has 90
mph codes. All are as measured 30 feet above ground.

Code issues we have to deal with that you don't is snow and drift snow
loading on the roof and can be very complicated, factoring type of
roofline, intersecting roof lines, etc. I was just looking at the
equations used to determine the load requirements and got a headache.

90 MPH? We debate about putting the shutters down for that ;-)
As you said, we built for 150 in 2004 and that is 160 now. Just south
or west of me is 170.
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/2012...code%20map.jpg