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Wish I didn't ....
An elderly friend has a 2013 Keystone Cougar fifth wheel that he and his wife snowbird to Florida in during the winter. When he came back this year the main control panel that controls slides, lights, displays fresh, grey and black water levels, etc. stopped working. Doesn't even light up like it's supposed to. He asked me if I had any ideas and, being the friendly, helpful sort I offered to see if I could find the problem. Not that simple. For a couple of years Keystone made these panels using a membrane type switch panel that transmits wirelessly to a "brain" in one of the forward compartments. Worse, there are no manuals, wiring diagrams or schematics for the system. Worse yet, they had so many problems with this system that they no longer make it or support it. Checked a few places on the Internet in hopes of finding some kind of documentation and all I found was horror story after horror story of people with this system. Some failed shortly after they bought the fifth wheel and never worked again. I realized it was wireless while checking some voltages. When I checked in the area of the "brain" my digital meter would initially read 12.something volts but then start slowly climbing to as high as 18 volts. I thought the meter was bad but when checking voltages at the other end of the fifth wheel where the control panel is, the readings were rock solid. Then I noticed a strange wire going nowhere that came out of the "brain" and realized it was an antenna. The whole system operates wirelessly and my meter was being affected by the RF noise. The manufacturer of the wireless system is of no help either. No diagrams available, no schematics, no replacement PC boards (everything is surface mount). They basically have disowned anything to do with this system. My friend contacted a third party supplier who said they can send a "kit" to replace the main control panel - no wireing diagrams though and but will not guarantee it will work and no returns. The kit is $500. I wish I never offered to help him. Now I own the damn problem. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com |
Wish I didn't ....
On 8/8/2017 4:00 PM, Justan wrote:
"Mr. Luddite" Wrote in message: An elderly friend has a 2013 Keystone Cougar fifth wheel that he and his wife snowbird to Florida in during the winter. When he came back this year the main control panel that controls slides, lights, displays fresh, grey and black water levels, etc. stopped working. Doesn't even light up like it's supposed to. He asked me if I had any ideas and, being the friendly, helpful sort I offered to see if I could find the problem. Not that simple. For a couple of years Keystone made these panels using a membrane type switch panel that transmits wirelessly to a "brain" in one of the forward compartments. Worse, there are no manuals, wiring diagrams or schematics for the system. Worse yet, they had so many problems with this system that they no longer make it or support it. Checked a few places on the Internet in hopes of finding some kind of documentation and all I found was horror story after horror story of people with this system. Some failed shortly after they bought the fifth wheel and never worked again. I realized it was wireless while checking some voltages. When I checked in the area of the "brain" my digital meter would initially read 12.something volts but then start slowly climbing to as high as 18 volts. I thought the meter was bad but when checking voltages at the other end of the fifth wheel where the control panel is, the readings were rock solid. Then I noticed a strange wire going nowhere that came out of the "brain" and realized it was an antenna. The whole system operates wirelessly and my meter was being affected by the RF noise. The manufacturer of the wireless system is of no help either. No diagrams available, no schematics, no replacement PC boards (everything is surface mount). They basically have disowned anything to do with this system. My friend contacted a third party supplier who said they can send a "kit" to replace the main control panel - no wireing diagrams though and but will not guarantee it will work and no returns. The kit is $500. I wish I never offered to help him. Now I own the damn problem. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com Flagg RV in Uxbridge name keeps popping up. Turn the project over to them. You'd end up wiring in all new circuits and building a control panel. I don't think you want to do that. I *know* I don't want to do that. I am going to tell him his best bet is to take it to an RV place like Flagg, assuming even *they* want to get involved. |
Wish I didn't ....
On 8/8/2017 4:13 PM, justan wrote:
"Mr. Luddite" Wrote in message: An elderly friend has a 2013 Keystone Cougar fifth wheel that he and his wife snowbird to Florida in during the winter. When he came back this year the main control panel that controls slides, lights, displays fresh, grey and black water levels, etc. stopped working. Doesn't even light up like it's supposed to. He asked me if I had any ideas and, being the friendly, helpful sort I offered to see if I could find the problem. Not that simple. For a couple of years Keystone made these panels using a membrane type switch panel that transmits wirelessly to a "brain" in one of the forward compartments. Worse, there are no manuals, wiring diagrams or schematics for the system. Worse yet, they had so many problems with this system that they no longer make it or support it. Checked a few places on the Internet in hopes of finding some kind of documentation and all I found was horror story after horror story of people with this system. Some failed shortly after they bought the fifth wheel and never worked again. I realized it was wireless while checking some voltages. When I checked in the area of the "brain" my digital meter would initially read 12.something volts but then start slowly climbing to as high as 18 volts. I thought the meter was bad but when checking voltages at the other end of the fifth wheel where the control panel is, the readings were rock solid. Then I noticed a strange wire going nowhere that came out of the "brain" and realized it was an antenna. The whole system operates wirelessly and my meter was being affected by the RF noise. The manufacturer of the wireless system is of no help either. No diagrams available, no schematics, no replacement PC boards (everything is surface mount). They basically have disowned anything to do with this system. My friend contacted a third party supplier who said they can send a "kit" to replace the main control panel - no wireing diagrams though and but will not guarantee it will work and no returns. The kit is $500. I wish I never offered to help him. Now I own the damn problem. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com Googled it and came up with dead battery in remote. Also says it wont work if you stray from front of 5th wheel. There seems to be a lot of buzz about this problem on the internet. Yeah, I found the thing about the batteries in the remote and how to reset the whole system. Put new batteries in it and did the reset procedure. No luck. Still no power on the control panel. I pulled the panel out and checked the input voltage. It comes in on four pairs of terminals and they all read 12.4 volts. There's a PC board in the panel with a bunch of relays, logic chips and diodes on it. Everything is double surface mount, so not designed to be worked on ... only replace the whole board (which isn't made anymore). The slides work with the remote, so that's most important as well as some of the interior lights. There's a few more lights and the redundant slide controls plus the input sensors from the three tanks so the panel not working doesn't prevent them from using the rig. Without any wiring diagrams, schematics or documentation of any kind it's really Easter Egging as far as trying to troubleshoot. |
Wish I didn't ....
On Tuesday, 8 August 2017 16:28:44 UTC-3, Mr. Luddite wrote:
An elderly friend has a 2013 Keystone Cougar fifth wheel that he and his wife snowbird to Florida in during the winter. When he came back this year the main control panel that controls slides, lights, displays fresh, grey and black water levels, etc. stopped working. Doesn't even light up like it's supposed to. He asked me if I had any ideas and, being the friendly, helpful sort I offered to see if I could find the problem. Not that simple. For a couple of years Keystone made these panels using a membrane type switch panel that transmits wirelessly to a "brain" in one of the forward compartments. Worse, there are no manuals, wiring diagrams or schematics for the system. Worse yet, they had so many problems with this system that they no longer make it or support it. Checked a few places on the Internet in hopes of finding some kind of documentation and all I found was horror story after horror story of people with this system. Some failed shortly after they bought the fifth wheel and never worked again. I realized it was wireless while checking some voltages. When I checked in the area of the "brain" my digital meter would initially read 12.something volts but then start slowly climbing to as high as 18 volts. I thought the meter was bad but when checking voltages at the other end of the fifth wheel where the control panel is, the readings were rock solid. Then I noticed a strange wire going nowhere that came out of the "brain" and realized it was an antenna. The whole system operates wirelessly and my meter was being affected by the RF noise. The manufacturer of the wireless system is of no help either. No diagrams available, no schematics, no replacement PC boards (everything is surface mount). They basically have disowned anything to do with this system. My friend contacted a third party supplier who said they can send a "kit" to replace the main control panel - no wireing diagrams though and but will not guarantee it will work and no returns. The kit is $500. I wish I never offered to help him. Now I own the damn problem. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com No good deed goes unpunished! |
Wish I didn't ....
On Tuesday, August 8, 2017 at 5:42:59 PM UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 8/8/2017 4:13 PM, justan wrote: "Mr. Luddite" Wrote in message: An elderly friend has a 2013 Keystone Cougar fifth wheel that he and his wife snowbird to Florida in during the winter. When he came back this year the main control panel that controls slides, lights, displays fresh, grey and black water levels, etc. stopped working. Doesn't even light up like it's supposed to. He asked me if I had any ideas and, being the friendly, helpful sort I offered to see if I could find the problem. Not that simple. For a couple of years Keystone made these panels using a membrane type switch panel that transmits wirelessly to a "brain" in one of the forward compartments. Worse, there are no manuals, wiring diagrams or schematics for the system. Worse yet, they had so many problems with this system that they no longer make it or support it. Checked a few places on the Internet in hopes of finding some kind of documentation and all I found was horror story after horror story of people with this system. Some failed shortly after they bought the fifth wheel and never worked again. I realized it was wireless while checking some voltages. When I checked in the area of the "brain" my digital meter would initially read 12.something volts but then start slowly climbing to as high as 18 volts. I thought the meter was bad but when checking voltages at the other end of the fifth wheel where the control panel is, the readings were rock solid. Then I noticed a strange wire going nowhere that came out of the "brain" and realized it was an antenna. The whole system operates wirelessly and my meter was being affected by the RF noise. The manufacturer of the wireless system is of no help either. No diagrams available, no schematics, no replacement PC boards (everything is surface mount). They basically have disowned anything to do with this system. My friend contacted a third party supplier who said they can send a "kit" to replace the main control panel - no wireing diagrams though and but will not guarantee it will work and no returns. The kit is $500. I wish I never offered to help him. Now I own the damn problem. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com Googled it and came up with dead battery in remote. Also says it wont work if you stray from front of 5th wheel. There seems to be a lot of buzz about this problem on the internet. Yeah, I found the thing about the batteries in the remote and how to reset the whole system. Put new batteries in it and did the reset procedure. No luck. Still no power on the control panel. I pulled the panel out and checked the input voltage. It comes in on four pairs of terminals and they all read 12.4 volts. There's a PC board in the panel with a bunch of relays, logic chips and diodes on it. Everything is double surface mount, so not designed to be worked on ... only replace the whole board (which isn't made anymore). The slides work with the remote, so that's most important as well as some of the interior lights. There's a few more lights and the redundant slide controls plus the input sensors from the three tanks so the panel not working doesn't prevent them from using the rig. Without any wiring diagrams, schematics or documentation of any kind it's really Easter Egging as far as trying to troubleshoot. I'm lucky. My slides, landing gear etc operate from individual switches. The tank lights show up on the 'display', but they've not worked since we got the rig anyway. That is a pretty common problem. I thought about searching for manuals, but it sounds like you,et al, have done all the searching that's to be done. He might try calling an RV 'junk yard' like one of those below to see if they might have it. Johnson's Surplus White Pigeon, MI • (269) 483-2249 Bontrager's Surplus Inc White Pigeon, MI • (269) 483-7017 Wish him luck. Right now I'm soaking my hot water tank to remove a 'rotten egg' smell that I picked up at some campground. The book called for a solution of 4 parts vinegar to 2 parts water. But, it didn't say how much of the solution to make. Called the factory. Answer...make as much as the heater holds. So right now it's got 4 gallons of vinegar and 2 gallons of water in it. It needs to run for about 8 hours, and then get rinsed. Hey, the camping life is rough! |
Wish I didn't ....
On 8/8/2017 9:12 PM, justan wrote:
"Mr. Luddite" Wrote in message: On 8/8/2017 4:13 PM, justan wrote: "Mr. Luddite" Wrote in message: An elderly friend has a 2013 Keystone Cougar fifth wheel that he and his wife snowbird to Florida in during the winter. When he came back this year the main control panel that controls slides, lights, displays fresh, grey and black water levels, etc. stopped working. Doesn't even light up like it's supposed to. He asked me if I had any ideas and, being the friendly, helpful sort I offered to see if I could find the problem. Not that simple. For a couple of years Keystone made these panels using a membrane type switch panel that transmits wirelessly to a "brain" in one of the forward compartments. Worse, there are no manuals, wiring diagrams or schematics for the system. Worse yet, they had so many problems with this system that they no longer make it or support it. Checked a few places on the Internet in hopes of finding some kind of documentation and all I found was horror story after horror story of people with this system. Some failed shortly after they bought the fifth wheel and never worked again. I realized it was wireless while checking some voltages. When I checked in the area of the "brain" my digital meter would initially read 12.something volts but then start slowly climbing to as high as 18 volts. I thought the meter was bad but when checking voltages at the other end of the fifth wheel where the control panel is, the readings were rock solid. Then I noticed a strange wire going nowhere that came out of the "brain" and realized it was an antenna. The whole system operates wirelessly and my meter was being affected by the RF noise. The manufacturer of the wireless system is of no help either. No diagrams available, no schematics, no replacement PC boards (everything is surface mount). They basically have disowned anything to do with this system. My friend contacted a third party supplier who said they can send a "kit" to replace the main control panel - no wireing diagrams though and but will not guarantee it will work and no returns. The kit is $500. I wish I never offered to help him. Now I own the damn problem. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com Googled it and came up with dead battery in remote. Also says it wont work if you stray from front of 5th wheel. There seems to be a lot of buzz about this problem on the internet. Yeah, I found the thing about the batteries in the remote and how to reset the whole system. Put new batteries in it and did the reset procedure. No luck. Still no power on the control panel. I pulled the panel out and checked the input voltage. It comes in on four pairs of terminals and they all read 12.4 volts. There's a PC board in the panel with a bunch of relays, logic chips and diodes on it. Everything is double surface mount, so not designed to be worked on ... only replace the whole board (which isn't made anymore). The slides work with the remote, so that's most important as well as some of the interior lights. There's a few more lights and the redundant slide controls plus the input sensors from the three tanks so the panel not working doesn't prevent them from using the rig. Without any wiring diagrams, schematics or documentation of any kind it's really Easter Egging as far as trying to troubleshoot. In that case encourage them to trade it or sell it outright That's my plan. I am going to give it one more try at trying to determine if anything other than what's on the PC board is preventing the panel from even turning on. If no luck with that I will recommend as you suggested. He already bought another camper that mounts in the bed of his truck. He's been saying that his days of hauling a big fifth wheel are coming to an end anyway. I'll suggest that he sell the Cougar disclosing the control panel problem and adjust the selling price accordingly. A new owner may be willing to invest more into it in terms of getting it fixed. If the problem was simple that's one thing. But, unless I stumble on something today, the problem isn't simple, as evidenced by the experiences of others who have had this system and it's problems. |
Wish I didn't ....
Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 8/8/2017 9:12 PM, justan wrote: "Mr. Luddite" Wrote in message: On 8/8/2017 4:13 PM, justan wrote: "Mr. Luddite" Wrote in message: An elderly friend has a 2013 Keystone Cougar fifth wheel that he and his wife snowbird to Florida in during the winter. When he came back this year the main control panel that controls slides, lights, displays fresh, grey and black water levels, etc. stopped working. Doesn't even light up like it's supposed to. He asked me if I had any ideas and, being the friendly, helpful sort I offered to see if I could find the problem. Not that simple. For a couple of years Keystone made these panels using a membrane type switch panel that transmits wirelessly to a "brain" in one of the forward compartments. Worse, there are no manuals, wiring diagrams or schematics for the system. Worse yet, they had so many problems with this system that they no longer make it or support it. Checked a few places on the Internet in hopes of finding some kind of documentation and all I found was horror story after horror story of people with this system. Some failed shortly after they bought the fifth wheel and never worked again. I realized it was wireless while checking some voltages. When I checked in the area of the "brain" my digital meter would initially read 12.something volts but then start slowly climbing to as high as 18 volts. I thought the meter was bad but when checking voltages at the other end of the fifth wheel where the control panel is, the readings were rock solid. Then I noticed a strange wire going nowhere that came out of the "brain" and realized it was an antenna. The whole system operates wirelessly and my meter was being affected by the RF noise. The manufacturer of the wireless system is of no help either. No diagrams available, no schematics, no replacement PC boards (everything is surface mount). They basically have disowned anything to do with this system. My friend contacted a third party supplier who said they can send a "kit" to replace the main control panel - no wireing diagrams though and but will not guarantee it will work and no returns. The kit is $500. I wish I never offered to help him. Now I own the damn problem. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com Googled it and came up with dead battery in remote. Also says it wont work if you stray from front of 5th wheel. There seems to be a lot of buzz about this problem on the internet. Yeah, I found the thing about the batteries in the remote and how to reset the whole system. Put new batteries in it and did the reset procedure. No luck. Still no power on the control panel. I pulled the panel out and checked the input voltage. It comes in on four pairs of terminals and they all read 12.4 volts. There's a PC board in the panel with a bunch of relays, logic chips and diodes on it. Everything is double surface mount, so not designed to be worked on ... only replace the whole board (which isn't made anymore). The slides work with the remote, so that's most important as well as some of the interior lights. There's a few more lights and the redundant slide controls plus the input sensors from the three tanks so the panel not working doesn't prevent them from using the rig. Without any wiring diagrams, schematics or documentation of any kind it's really Easter Egging as far as trying to troubleshoot. In that case encourage them to trade it or sell it outright That's my plan. I am going to give it one more try at trying to determine if anything other than what's on the PC board is preventing the panel from even turning on. If no luck with that I will recommend as you suggested. He already bought another camper that mounts in the bed of his truck. He's been saying that his days of hauling a big fifth wheel are coming to an end anyway. I'll suggest that he sell the Cougar disclosing the control panel problem and adjust the selling price accordingly. A new owner may be willing to invest more into it in terms of getting it fixed. If the problem was simple that's one thing. But, unless I stumble on something today, the problem isn't simple, as evidenced by the experiences of others who have had this system and it's problems. The motors for the slides have to be similar to John's or anybody else's these days. Just the control panel different. Could probably just replace the panel with a modern one with switches. Tracing the wires might be a pain, but a $30 tracer from Lowes, etc. should do the job. |
Wish I didn't ....
On 8/9/2017 10:35 AM, Bill wrote:
Mr. Luddite wrote: On 8/8/2017 9:12 PM, justan wrote: "Mr. Luddite" Wrote in message: On 8/8/2017 4:13 PM, justan wrote: "Mr. Luddite" Wrote in message: An elderly friend has a 2013 Keystone Cougar fifth wheel that he and his wife snowbird to Florida in during the winter. When he came back this year the main control panel that controls slides, lights, displays fresh, grey and black water levels, etc. stopped working. Doesn't even light up like it's supposed to. He asked me if I had any ideas and, being the friendly, helpful sort I offered to see if I could find the problem. Not that simple. For a couple of years Keystone made these panels using a membrane type switch panel that transmits wirelessly to a "brain" in one of the forward compartments. Worse, there are no manuals, wiring diagrams or schematics for the system. Worse yet, they had so many problems with this system that they no longer make it or support it. Checked a few places on the Internet in hopes of finding some kind of documentation and all I found was horror story after horror story of people with this system. Some failed shortly after they bought the fifth wheel and never worked again. I realized it was wireless while checking some voltages. When I checked in the area of the "brain" my digital meter would initially read 12.something volts but then start slowly climbing to as high as 18 volts. I thought the meter was bad but when checking voltages at the other end of the fifth wheel where the control panel is, the readings were rock solid. Then I noticed a strange wire going nowhere that came out of the "brain" and realized it was an antenna. The whole system operates wirelessly and my meter was being affected by the RF noise. The manufacturer of the wireless system is of no help either. No diagrams available, no schematics, no replacement PC boards (everything is surface mount). They basically have disowned anything to do with this system. My friend contacted a third party supplier who said they can send a "kit" to replace the main control panel - no wireing diagrams though and but will not guarantee it will work and no returns. The kit is $500. I wish I never offered to help him. Now I own the damn problem. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com Googled it and came up with dead battery in remote. Also says it wont work if you stray from front of 5th wheel. There seems to be a lot of buzz about this problem on the internet. Yeah, I found the thing about the batteries in the remote and how to reset the whole system. Put new batteries in it and did the reset procedure. No luck. Still no power on the control panel. I pulled the panel out and checked the input voltage. It comes in on four pairs of terminals and they all read 12.4 volts. There's a PC board in the panel with a bunch of relays, logic chips and diodes on it. Everything is double surface mount, so not designed to be worked on ... only replace the whole board (which isn't made anymore). The slides work with the remote, so that's most important as well as some of the interior lights. There's a few more lights and the redundant slide controls plus the input sensors from the three tanks so the panel not working doesn't prevent them from using the rig. Without any wiring diagrams, schematics or documentation of any kind it's really Easter Egging as far as trying to troubleshoot. In that case encourage them to trade it or sell it outright That's my plan. I am going to give it one more try at trying to determine if anything other than what's on the PC board is preventing the panel from even turning on. If no luck with that I will recommend as you suggested. He already bought another camper that mounts in the bed of his truck. He's been saying that his days of hauling a big fifth wheel are coming to an end anyway. I'll suggest that he sell the Cougar disclosing the control panel problem and adjust the selling price accordingly. A new owner may be willing to invest more into it in terms of getting it fixed. If the problem was simple that's one thing. But, unless I stumble on something today, the problem isn't simple, as evidenced by the experiences of others who have had this system and it's problems. The motors for the slides have to be similar to John's or anybody else's these days. Just the control panel different. Could probably just replace the panel with a modern one with switches. Tracing the wires might be a pain, but a $30 tracer from Lowes, etc. should do the job. He can operate the slides with the remote control. It's just some lights, maybe a roof fan and the displays for the three tanks that don't work. |
Wish I didn't ....
On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 07:27:05 -0600 (MDT), justan wrote:
John H Wrote in message: On Tuesday, August 8, 2017 at 5:42:59 PM UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 8/8/2017 4:13 PM, justan wrote: "Mr. Luddite" Wrote in message: An elderly friend has a 2013 Keystone Cougar fifth wheel that he and his wife snowbird to Florida in during the winter. When he came back this year the main control panel that controls slides, lights, displays fresh, grey and black water levels, etc. stopped working. Doesn't even light up like it's supposed to. He asked me if I had any ideas and, being the friendly, helpful sort I offered to see if I could find the problem. Not that simple. For a couple of years Keystone made these panels using a membrane type switch panel that transmits wirelessly to a "brain" in one of the forward compartments. Worse, there are no manuals, wiring diagrams or schematics for the system. Worse yet, they had so many problems with this system that they no longer make it or support it. Checked a few places on the Internet in hopes of finding some kind of documentation and all I found was horror story after horror story of people with this system. Some failed shortly after they bought the fifth wheel and never worked again. I realized it was wireless while checking some voltages. When I checked in the area of the "brain" my digital meter would initially read 12.something volts but then start slowly climbing to as high as 18 volts. I thought the meter was bad but when checking voltages at the other end of the fifth wheel where the control panel is, the readings were rock solid. Then I noticed a strange wire going nowhere that came out of the "brain" and realized it was an antenna. The whole system operates wirelessly and my meter was being affected by the RF noise. The manufacturer of the wireless system is of no help either. No diagrams available, no schematics, no replacement PC boards (everything is surface mount). They basically have disowned anything to do with this system. My friend contacted a third party supplier who said they can send a "kit" to replace the main control panel - no wireing diagrams though and but will not guarantee it will work and no returns. The kit is $500. I wish I never offered to help him. Now I own the damn problem. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com Googled it and came up with dead battery in remote. Also says it wont work if you stray from front of 5th wheel. There seems to be a lot of buzz about this problem on the internet. Yeah, I found the thing about the batteries in the remote and how to reset the whole system. Put new batteries in it and did the reset procedure. No luck. Still no power on the control panel. I pulled the panel out and checked the input voltage. It comes in on four pairs of terminals and they all read 12.4 volts. There's a PC board in the panel with a bunch of relays, logic chips and diodes on it. Everything is double surface mount, so not designed to be worked on ... only replace the whole board (which isn't made anymore). The slides work with the remote, so that's most important as well as some of the interior lights. There's a few more lights and the redundant slide controls plus the input sensors from the three tanks so the panel not working doesn't prevent them from using the rig. Without any wiring diagrams, schematics or documentation of any kind it's really Easter Egging as far as trying to troubleshoot. I'm lucky. My slides, landing gear etc operate from individual switches. The tank lights show up on the 'display', but they've not worked since we got the rig anyway. That is a pretty common problem. I thought about searching for manuals, but it sounds like you,et al, have done all the searching that's to be done. He might try calling an RV 'junk yard' like one of those below to see if they might have it. Johnson's Surplus White Pigeon, MI ? (269) 483-2249 Bontrager's Surplus Inc White Pigeon, MI ? (269) 483-7017 Wish him luck. Right now I'm soaking my hot water tank to remove a 'rotten egg' smell that I picked up at some campground. The book called for a solution of 4 parts vinegar to 2 parts water. But, it didn't say how much of the solution to make. Called the factory. Answer...make as much as the heater holds. So right now it's got 4 gallons of vinegar and 2 gallons of water in it. It needs to run for about 8 hours, and then get rinsed. Hey, the camping life is rough! Filter your water before it goes in the tank. Make sure the anode isn't rotted away if there is one. Hook up to the city water and use it before you decide to fill your tank with it. Sanitize the tank and lines a couple of times a year with bleach. When you get home from a trip drain the tank and heater and refill with your own good water. Remember that your house water might need to be flushed for a while after sitting while you're gone. I do filter it first, and the anode was only about 25% used up. I checked the book to find the anode, and couldn't find it. My dealer had talked me into putting a new drain plug in the tank which had an anode and a petcock for easy draining. When I couldn't find a part number for the anode, I called the factory. The technician said 'NO, NO' there should 'NOT' be an anode in there. He blamed the smell on the use of the anode in that tank. Sure enough, I looked it up on Google and came across this: "The most common cause of smelly water is anaerobic bacteria that exist in some water and react with sulfur and the magnesium and aluminum sacrificial anodes that come with most water heaters to produce hydrogen sulfide gas, making the classic rotten egg odor." Also, he said 'no bleach'...vinegar was the thing to use in the hot water heater. I use a bit of bleach in the fresh water tank, as that's what my book calls for. About 1/2 cup to 15 gallons water. Let that slosh for a trip, run it through the lines, drain it and run fresh water through the lines for a bit. |
Wish I didn't ....
On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 14:35:52 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:
Mr. Luddite wrote: On 8/8/2017 9:12 PM, justan wrote: "Mr. Luddite" Wrote in message: On 8/8/2017 4:13 PM, justan wrote: "Mr. Luddite" Wrote in message: An elderly friend has a 2013 Keystone Cougar fifth wheel that he and his wife snowbird to Florida in during the winter. When he came back this year the main control panel that controls slides, lights, displays fresh, grey and black water levels, etc. stopped working. Doesn't even light up like it's supposed to. He asked me if I had any ideas and, being the friendly, helpful sort I offered to see if I could find the problem. Not that simple. For a couple of years Keystone made these panels using a membrane type switch panel that transmits wirelessly to a "brain" in one of the forward compartments. Worse, there are no manuals, wiring diagrams or schematics for the system. Worse yet, they had so many problems with this system that they no longer make it or support it. Checked a few places on the Internet in hopes of finding some kind of documentation and all I found was horror story after horror story of people with this system. Some failed shortly after they bought the fifth wheel and never worked again. I realized it was wireless while checking some voltages. When I checked in the area of the "brain" my digital meter would initially read 12.something volts but then start slowly climbing to as high as 18 volts. I thought the meter was bad but when checking voltages at the other end of the fifth wheel where the control panel is, the readings were rock solid. Then I noticed a strange wire going nowhere that came out of the "brain" and realized it was an antenna. The whole system operates wirelessly and my meter was being affected by the RF noise. The manufacturer of the wireless system is of no help either. No diagrams available, no schematics, no replacement PC boards (everything is surface mount). They basically have disowned anything to do with this system. My friend contacted a third party supplier who said they can send a "kit" to replace the main control panel - no wireing diagrams though and but will not guarantee it will work and no returns. The kit is $500. I wish I never offered to help him. Now I own the damn problem. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com Googled it and came up with dead battery in remote. Also says it wont work if you stray from front of 5th wheel. There seems to be a lot of buzz about this problem on the internet. Yeah, I found the thing about the batteries in the remote and how to reset the whole system. Put new batteries in it and did the reset procedure. No luck. Still no power on the control panel. I pulled the panel out and checked the input voltage. It comes in on four pairs of terminals and they all read 12.4 volts. There's a PC board in the panel with a bunch of relays, logic chips and diodes on it. Everything is double surface mount, so not designed to be worked on ... only replace the whole board (which isn't made anymore). The slides work with the remote, so that's most important as well as some of the interior lights. There's a few more lights and the redundant slide controls plus the input sensors from the three tanks so the panel not working doesn't prevent them from using the rig. Without any wiring diagrams, schematics or documentation of any kind it's really Easter Egging as far as trying to troubleshoot. In that case encourage them to trade it or sell it outright That's my plan. I am going to give it one more try at trying to determine if anything other than what's on the PC board is preventing the panel from even turning on. If no luck with that I will recommend as you suggested. He already bought another camper that mounts in the bed of his truck. He's been saying that his days of hauling a big fifth wheel are coming to an end anyway. I'll suggest that he sell the Cougar disclosing the control panel problem and adjust the selling price accordingly. A new owner may be willing to invest more into it in terms of getting it fixed. If the problem was simple that's one thing. But, unless I stumble on something today, the problem isn't simple, as evidenced by the experiences of others who have had this system and it's problems. The motors for the slides have to be similar to John's or anybody else's these days. Just the control panel different. Could probably just replace the panel with a modern one with switches. Tracing the wires might be a pain, but a $30 tracer from Lowes, etc. should do the job. Probably different from mine. The Open Range has a cable slide system. The motors are on top of the slides, operate a couple chains which pull cables back and forth to open/close the slide. |
Wish I didn't ....
On 8/9/2017 1:28 PM, justan wrote:
Bill Wrote in message: Mr. Luddite wrote: On 8/8/2017 9:12 PM, justan wrote: "Mr. Luddite" Wrote in message: On 8/8/2017 4:13 PM, justan wrote: "Mr. Luddite" Wrote in message: An elderly friend has a 2013 Keystone Cougar fifth wheel that he and his wife snowbird to Florida in during the winter. When he came back this year the main control panel that controls slides, lights, displays fresh, grey and black water levels, etc. stopped working. Doesn't even light up like it's supposed to. He asked me if I had any ideas and, being the friendly, helpful sort I offered to see if I could find the problem. Not that simple. For a couple of years Keystone made these panels using a membrane type switch panel that transmits wirelessly to a "brain" in one of the forward compartments. Worse, there are no manuals, wiring diagrams or schematics for the system. Worse yet, they had so many problems with this system that they no longer make it or support it. Checked a few places on the Internet in hopes of finding some kind of documentation and all I found was horror story after horror story of people with this system. Some failed shortly after they bought the fifth wheel and never worked again. I realized it was wireless while checking some voltages. When I checked in the area of the "brain" my digital meter would initially read 12.something volts but then start slowly climbing to as high as 18 volts. I thought the meter was bad but when checking voltages at the other end of the fifth wheel where the control panel is, the readings were rock solid. Then I noticed a strange wire going nowhere that came out of the "brain" and realized it was an antenna. The whole system operates wirelessly and my meter was being affected by the RF noise. The manufacturer of the wireless system is of no help either. No diagrams available, no schematics, no replacement PC boards (everything is surface mount). They basically have disowned anything to do with this system. My friend contacted a third party supplier who said they can send a "kit" to replace the main control panel - no wireing diagrams though and but will not guarantee it will work and no returns. The kit is $500. I wish I never offered to help him. Now I own the damn problem. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com Googled it and came up with dead battery in remote. Also says it wont work if you stray from front of 5th wheel. There seems to be a lot of buzz about this problem on the internet. Yeah, I found the thing about the batteries in the remote and how to reset the whole system. Put new batteries in it and did the reset procedure. No luck. Still no power on the control panel. I pulled the panel out and checked the input voltage. It comes in on four pairs of terminals and they all read 12.4 volts. There's a PC board in the panel with a bunch of relays, logic chips and diodes on it. Everything is double surface mount, so not designed to be worked on ... only replace the whole board (which isn't made anymore). The slides work with the remote, so that's most important as well as some of the interior lights. There's a few more lights and the redundant slide controls plus the input sensors from the three tanks so the panel not working doesn't prevent them from using the rig. Without any wiring diagrams, schematics or documentation of any kind it's really Easter Egging as far as trying to troubleshoot. In that case encourage them to trade it or sell it outright That's my plan. I am going to give it one more try at trying to determine if anything other than what's on the PC board is preventing the panel from even turning on. If no luck with that I will recommend as you suggested. He already bought another camper that mounts in the bed of his truck. He's been saying that his days of hauling a big fifth wheel are coming to an end anyway. I'll suggest that he sell the Cougar disclosing the control panel problem and adjust the selling price accordingly. A new owner may be willing to invest more into it in terms of getting it fixed. If the problem was simple that's one thing. But, unless I stumble on something today, the problem isn't simple, as evidenced by the experiences of others who have had this system and it's problems. The motors for the slides have to be similar to John's or anybody else's these days. Just the control panel different. Could probably just replace the panel with a modern one with switches. Tracing the wires might be a pain, but a $30 tracer from Lowes, etc. should do the job. The controls might be on a can bus. I think the problem is on the PC board in the control unit. It's supposed to turn on, light up blue and display all the membrane switch areas and labels. It doesn't. Has 12 volts but doesn't turn on, |
Wish I didn't ....
On 8/9/2017 1:33 PM, justan wrote:
"Mr. Luddite" Wrote in message: On 8/9/2017 10:35 AM, Bill wrote: Mr. Luddite wrote: On 8/8/2017 9:12 PM, justan wrote: "Mr. Luddite" Wrote in message: On 8/8/2017 4:13 PM, justan wrote: "Mr. Luddite" Wrote in message: An elderly friend has a 2013 Keystone Cougar fifth wheel that he and his wife snowbird to Florida in during the winter. When he came back this year the main control panel that controls slides, lights, displays fresh, grey and black water levels, etc. stopped working. Doesn't even light up like it's supposed to. He asked me if I had any ideas and, being the friendly, helpful sort I offered to see if I could find the problem. Not that simple. For a couple of years Keystone made these panels using a membrane type switch panel that transmits wirelessly to a "brain" in one of the forward compartments. Worse, there are no manuals, wiring diagrams or schematics for the system. Worse yet, they had so many problems with this system that they no longer make it or support it. Checked a few places on the Internet in hopes of finding some kind of documentation and all I found was horror story after horror story of people with this system. Some failed shortly after they bought the fifth wheel and never worked again. I realized it was wireless while checking some voltages. When I checked in the area of the "brain" my digital meter would initially read 12.something volts but then start slowly climbing to as high as 18 volts. I thought the meter was bad but when checking voltages at the other end of the fifth wheel where the control panel is, the readings were rock solid. Then I noticed a strange wire going nowhere that came out of the "brain" and realized it was an antenna. The whole system operates wirelessly and my meter was being affected by the RF noise. The manufacturer of the wireless system is of no help either. No diagrams available, no schematics, no replacement PC boards (everything is surface mount). They basically have disowned anything to do with this system. My friend contacted a third party supplier who said they can send a "kit" to replace the main control panel - no wireing diagrams though and but will not guarantee it will work and no returns. The kit is $500. I wish I never offered to help him. Now I own the damn problem. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com Googled it and came up with dead battery in remote. Also says it wont work if you stray from front of 5th wheel. There seems to be a lot of buzz about this problem on the internet. Yeah, I found the thing about the batteries in the remote and how to reset the whole system. Put new batteries in it and did the reset procedure. No luck. Still no power on the control panel. I pulled the panel out and checked the input voltage. It comes in on four pairs of terminals and they all read 12.4 volts. There's a PC board in the panel with a bunch of relays, logic chips and diodes on it. Everything is double surface mount, so not designed to be worked on ... only replace the whole board (which isn't made anymore). The slides work with the remote, so that's most important as well as some of the interior lights. There's a few more lights and the redundant slide controls plus the input sensors from the three tanks so the panel not working doesn't prevent them from using the rig. Without any wiring diagrams, schematics or documentation of any kind it's really Easter Egging as far as trying to troubleshoot. In that case encourage them to trade it or sell it outright That's my plan. I am going to give it one more try at trying to determine if anything other than what's on the PC board is preventing the panel from even turning on. If no luck with that I will recommend as you suggested. He already bought another camper that mounts in the bed of his truck. He's been saying that his days of hauling a big fifth wheel are coming to an end anyway. I'll suggest that he sell the Cougar disclosing the control panel problem and adjust the selling price accordingly. A new owner may be willing to invest more into it in terms of getting it fixed. If the problem was simple that's one thing. But, unless I stumble on something today, the problem isn't simple, as evidenced by the experiences of others who have had this system and it's problems. The motors for the slides have to be similar to John's or anybody else's these days. Just the control panel different. Could probably just replace the panel with a modern one with switches. Tracing the wires might be a pain, but a $30 tracer from Lowes, etc. should do the job. He can operate the slides with the remote control. It's just some lights, maybe a roof fan and the displays for the three tanks that don't work. Lights may be burned out. Fan might have a blown fuse. Mmight be broken wire/s on tank sensors. I f you are going to work this out choose one problem at a time to solve. But you know that. ;-) All the fuses are good (pulled every single one of them and even checked for continuity with a meter). Overhead fan works if you turn it on manually at the fan. If I could get the control panel to light up at least I'd have a start. |
Wish I didn't ....
On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 13:50:30 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: I think the problem is on the PC board in the control unit. It's supposed to turn on, light up blue and display all the membrane switch areas and labels. It doesn't. Has 12 volts but doesn't turn on, === It sounds like the control panel in our Searay runabout. There's a multi-function touch panel which interfaces to a controller board with relays and solit state circuitry. It's almost impossible to debug and we ended up replacing the whole thing. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com |
Wish I didn't ....
On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 13:50:30 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: I think the problem is on the PC board in the control unit. It's supposed to turn on, light up blue and display all the membrane switch areas and labels. It doesn't. Has 12 volts but doesn't turn on, That is the problem with most new things. Everything is on a single board that may only cost a few bucks to produce in some 3d world country but sells for hundreds of dollars. They seldom/never provide any documentation about what is on that board. With a little knowledge of what usually goes wrong, you might get lucky and find a bad part you can replace on the board but they are bad about using parts with no helpful markings on them. I would start with the most rudimentary thing that is not working and trace back to the 12v ... like those back lights. It may just be a diode or regulator on the front end. (the actual controls may be 5v) Are there any burned traces? Parts that look like they got hot? I usually try to draw out what I see going along the traces and hope it is not a multilayered board. I got into this trying to fix gate controller boards. Fixed a few, tossed a bunch. The chip that seemed to be the failing part on most was not documented and the manufacturer was no help. |
Wish I didn't ....
John H wrote:
On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 14:35:52 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote: Mr. Luddite wrote: On 8/8/2017 9:12 PM, justan wrote: "Mr. Luddite" Wrote in message: On 8/8/2017 4:13 PM, justan wrote: "Mr. Luddite" Wrote in message: An elderly friend has a 2013 Keystone Cougar fifth wheel that he and his wife snowbird to Florida in during the winter. When he came back this year the main control panel that controls slides, lights, displays fresh, grey and black water levels, etc. stopped working. Doesn't even light up like it's supposed to. He asked me if I had any ideas and, being the friendly, helpful sort I offered to see if I could find the problem. Not that simple. For a couple of years Keystone made these panels using a membrane type switch panel that transmits wirelessly to a "brain" in one of the forward compartments. Worse, there are no manuals, wiring diagrams or schematics for the system. Worse yet, they had so many problems with this system that they no longer make it or support it. Checked a few places on the Internet in hopes of finding some kind of documentation and all I found was horror story after horror story of people with this system. Some failed shortly after they bought the fifth wheel and never worked again. I realized it was wireless while checking some voltages. When I checked in the area of the "brain" my digital meter would initially read 12.something volts but then start slowly climbing to as high as 18 volts. I thought the meter was bad but when checking voltages at the other end of the fifth wheel where the control panel is, the readings were rock solid. Then I noticed a strange wire going nowhere that came out of the "brain" and realized it was an antenna. The whole system operates wirelessly and my meter was being affected by the RF noise. The manufacturer of the wireless system is of no help either. No diagrams available, no schematics, no replacement PC boards (everything is surface mount). They basically have disowned anything to do with this system. My friend contacted a third party supplier who said they can send a "kit" to replace the main control panel - no wireing diagrams though and but will not guarantee it will work and no returns. The kit is $500. I wish I never offered to help him. Now I own the damn problem. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com Googled it and came up with dead battery in remote. Also says it wont work if you stray from front of 5th wheel. There seems to be a lot of buzz about this problem on the internet. Yeah, I found the thing about the batteries in the remote and how to reset the whole system. Put new batteries in it and did the reset procedure. No luck. Still no power on the control panel. I pulled the panel out and checked the input voltage. It comes in on four pairs of terminals and they all read 12.4 volts. There's a PC board in the panel with a bunch of relays, logic chips and diodes on it. Everything is double surface mount, so not designed to be worked on ... only replace the whole board (which isn't made anymore). The slides work with the remote, so that's most important as well as some of the interior lights. There's a few more lights and the redundant slide controls plus the input sensors from the three tanks so the panel not working doesn't prevent them from using the rig. Without any wiring diagrams, schematics or documentation of any kind it's really Easter Egging as far as trying to troubleshoot. In that case encourage them to trade it or sell it outright That's my plan. I am going to give it one more try at trying to determine if anything other than what's on the PC board is preventing the panel from even turning on. If no luck with that I will recommend as you suggested. He already bought another camper that mounts in the bed of his truck. He's been saying that his days of hauling a big fifth wheel are coming to an end anyway. I'll suggest that he sell the Cougar disclosing the control panel problem and adjust the selling price accordingly. A new owner may be willing to invest more into it in terms of getting it fixed. If the problem was simple that's one thing. But, unless I stumble on something today, the problem isn't simple, as evidenced by the experiences of others who have had this system and it's problems. The motors for the slides have to be similar to John's or anybody else's these days. Just the control panel different. Could probably just replace the panel with a modern one with switches. Tracing the wires might be a pain, but a $30 tracer from Lowes, etc. should do the job. Probably different from mine. The Open Range has a cable slide system. The motors are on top of the slides, operate a couple chains which pull cables back and forth to open/close the slide. just motors and controlling the motors. Wire a switch to the fans. Get a premade switch panel for a boat. |
Wish I didn't ....
On 8/9/2017 3:32 PM, justan wrote:
"Mr. Luddite" Wrote in message: On 8/9/2017 1:33 PM, justan wrote: "Mr. Luddite" Wrote in message: On 8/9/2017 10:35 AM, Bill wrote: Mr. Luddite wrote: On 8/8/2017 9:12 PM, justan wrote: "Mr. Luddite" Wrote in message: On 8/8/2017 4:13 PM, justan wrote: "Mr. Luddite" Wrote in message: An elderly friend has a 2013 Keystone Cougar fifth wheel that he and his wife snowbird to Florida in during the winter. When he came back this year the main control panel that controls slides, lights, displays fresh, grey and black water levels, etc. stopped working. Doesn't even light up like it's supposed to. He asked me if I had any ideas and, being the friendly, helpful sort I offered to see if I could find the problem. Not that simple. For a couple of years Keystone made these panels using a membrane type switch panel that transmits wirelessly to a "brain" in one of the forward compartments. Worse, there are no manuals, wiring diagrams or schematics for the system. Worse yet, they had so many problems with this system that they no longer make it or support it. Checked a few places on the Internet in hopes of finding some kind of documentation and all I found was horror story after horror story of people with this system. Some failed shortly after they bought the fifth wheel and never worked again. I realized it was wireless while checking some voltages. When I checked in the area of the "brain" my digital meter would initially read 12.something volts but then start slowly climbing to as high as 18 volts. I thought the meter was bad but when checking voltages at the other end of the fifth wheel where the control panel is, the readings were rock solid. Then I noticed a strange wire going nowhere that came out of the "brain" and realized it was an antenna. The whole system operates wirelessly and my meter was being affected by the RF noise. The manufacturer of the wireless system is of no help either. No diagrams available, no schematics, no replacement PC boards (everything is surface mount). They basically have disowned anything to do with this system. My friend contacted a third party supplier who said they can send a "kit" to replace the main control panel - no wireing diagrams though and but will not guarantee it will work and no returns. The kit is $500. I wish I never offered to help him. Now I own the damn problem. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com Googled it and came up with dead battery in remote. Also says it wont work if you stray from front of 5th wheel. There seems to be a lot of buzz about this problem on the internet. Yeah, I found the thing about the batteries in the remote and how to reset the whole system. Put new batteries in it and did the reset procedure. No luck. Still no power on the control panel. I pulled the panel out and checked the input voltage. It comes in on four pairs of terminals and they all read 12.4 volts. There's a PC board in the panel with a bunch of relays, logic chips and diodes on it. Everything is double surface mount, so not designed to be worked on ... only replace the whole board (which isn't made anymore). The slides work with the remote, so that's most important as well as some of the interior lights. There's a few more lights and the redundant slide controls plus the input sensors from the three tanks so the panel not working doesn't prevent them from using the rig. Without any wiring diagrams, schematics or documentation of any kind it's really Easter Egging as far as trying to troubleshoot. In that case encourage them to trade it or sell it outright That's my plan. I am going to give it one more try at trying to determine if anything other than what's on the PC board is preventing the panel from even turning on. If no luck with that I will recommend as you suggested. He already bought another camper that mounts in the bed of his truck. He's been saying that his days of hauling a big fifth wheel are coming to an end anyway. I'll suggest that he sell the Cougar disclosing the control panel problem and adjust the selling price accordingly. A new owner may be willing to invest more into it in terms of getting it fixed. If the problem was simple that's one thing. But, unless I stumble on something today, the problem isn't simple, as evidenced by the experiences of others who have had this system and it's problems. The motors for the slides have to be similar to John's or anybody else's these days. Just the control panel different. Could probably just replace the panel with a modern one with switches. Tracing the wires might be a pain, but a $30 tracer from Lowes, etc. should do the job. He can operate the slides with the remote control. It's just some lights, maybe a roof fan and the displays for the three tanks that don't work. Lights may be burned out. Fan might have a blown fuse. Mmight be broken wire/s on tank sensors. I f you are going to work this out choose one problem at a time to solve. But you know that. ;-) All the fuses are good (pulled every single one of them and even checked for continuity with a meter). Overhead fan works if you turn it on manually at the fan. If I could get the control panel to light up at least I'd have a start. Is there a battery control center box. If there is there could be up to 50 fuses and other things in it. There is no rhime or reason as to where they put fuses and stuff in RVs. Finding and collecting wiring and systems diagrams was the first thing I did with my last couple of RVs. The only fuse I found near the batteries was in a pig tail (30 amp) that powers the landing gear. Looked around for any others and found none. But, I'll look again. |
Wish I didn't ....
On Wednesday, August 9, 2017 at 3:59:53 PM UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 8/9/2017 2:15 PM, wrote: On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 13:50:30 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: I think the problem is on the PC board in the control unit. It's supposed to turn on, light up blue and display all the membrane switch areas and labels. It doesn't. Has 12 volts but doesn't turn on, That is the problem with most new things. Everything is on a single board that may only cost a few bucks to produce in some 3d world country but sells for hundreds of dollars. They seldom/never provide any documentation about what is on that board. With a little knowledge of what usually goes wrong, you might get lucky and find a bad part you can replace on the board but they are bad about using parts with no helpful markings on them. I would start with the most rudimentary thing that is not working and trace back to the 12v ... like those back lights. It may just be a diode or regulator on the front end. (the actual controls may be 5v) Are there any burned traces? Parts that look like they got hot? I usually try to draw out what I see going along the traces and hope it is not a multilayered board. I got into this trying to fix gate controller boards. Fixed a few, tossed a bunch. The chip that seemed to be the failing part on most was not documented and the manufacturer was no help. So far I have only seen one side of the control panel board. I plan to remove it completely and inspect it. There are a bunch of tiny diodes on it that are about the only things I can check (forward and reverse bias) if I scrape away some of the conformal coating but nothing else is testable that I can see so far. I think the problem *is* on the PC board but a replacement is not available. Once you get to where you can see both sides of the PC board, follow the power where it enters the board and look for a fuse onboard. It may not even look like a fuse. There are auto-resetting and one-shot current limit devices. If there is one it should be very close to the wire (or header) where the power attaches. Hopefully the board isn't multi-layer. |
Wish I didn't ....
On 8/9/2017 4:32 PM, Its Me wrote:
On Wednesday, August 9, 2017 at 3:59:53 PM UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 8/9/2017 2:15 PM, wrote: On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 13:50:30 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: I think the problem is on the PC board in the control unit. It's supposed to turn on, light up blue and display all the membrane switch areas and labels. It doesn't. Has 12 volts but doesn't turn on, That is the problem with most new things. Everything is on a single board that may only cost a few bucks to produce in some 3d world country but sells for hundreds of dollars. They seldom/never provide any documentation about what is on that board. With a little knowledge of what usually goes wrong, you might get lucky and find a bad part you can replace on the board but they are bad about using parts with no helpful markings on them. I would start with the most rudimentary thing that is not working and trace back to the 12v ... like those back lights. It may just be a diode or regulator on the front end. (the actual controls may be 5v) Are there any burned traces? Parts that look like they got hot? I usually try to draw out what I see going along the traces and hope it is not a multilayered board. I got into this trying to fix gate controller boards. Fixed a few, tossed a bunch. The chip that seemed to be the failing part on most was not documented and the manufacturer was no help. So far I have only seen one side of the control panel board. I plan to remove it completely and inspect it. There are a bunch of tiny diodes on it that are about the only things I can check (forward and reverse bias) if I scrape away some of the conformal coating but nothing else is testable that I can see so far. I think the problem *is* on the PC board but a replacement is not available. Once you get to where you can see both sides of the PC board, follow the power where it enters the board and look for a fuse onboard. It may not even look like a fuse. There are auto-resetting and one-shot current limit devices. If there is one it should be very close to the wire (or header) where the power attaches. Hopefully the board isn't multi-layer. Thanks. I'll look. This panel is supplied with battery voltage in three different places. All three supplies are good, at least on the terminal strip before it connects to the board. Don't know what happens after that and without removing the PC board, I can't see how it connects. Hopefully I won't spill a handful of membrane switch parts on the floor. I hate working on "other people's stuff". --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com |
Wish I didn't ....
On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 16:46:22 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 8/9/2017 4:32 PM, Its Me wrote: On Wednesday, August 9, 2017 at 3:59:53 PM UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 8/9/2017 2:15 PM, wrote: On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 13:50:30 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: I think the problem is on the PC board in the control unit. It's supposed to turn on, light up blue and display all the membrane switch areas and labels. It doesn't. Has 12 volts but doesn't turn on, That is the problem with most new things. Everything is on a single board that may only cost a few bucks to produce in some 3d world country but sells for hundreds of dollars. They seldom/never provide any documentation about what is on that board. With a little knowledge of what usually goes wrong, you might get lucky and find a bad part you can replace on the board but they are bad about using parts with no helpful markings on them. I would start with the most rudimentary thing that is not working and trace back to the 12v ... like those back lights. It may just be a diode or regulator on the front end. (the actual controls may be 5v) Are there any burned traces? Parts that look like they got hot? I usually try to draw out what I see going along the traces and hope it is not a multilayered board. I got into this trying to fix gate controller boards. Fixed a few, tossed a bunch. The chip that seemed to be the failing part on most was not documented and the manufacturer was no help. So far I have only seen one side of the control panel board. I plan to remove it completely and inspect it. There are a bunch of tiny diodes on it that are about the only things I can check (forward and reverse bias) if I scrape away some of the conformal coating but nothing else is testable that I can see so far. I think the problem *is* on the PC board but a replacement is not available. Once you get to where you can see both sides of the PC board, follow the power where it enters the board and look for a fuse onboard. It may not even look like a fuse. There are auto-resetting and one-shot current limit devices. If there is one it should be very close to the wire (or header) where the power attaches. Hopefully the board isn't multi-layer. Thanks. I'll look. This panel is supplied with battery voltage in three different places. All three supplies are good, at least on the terminal strip before it connects to the board. Don't know what happens after that and without removing the PC board, I can't see how it connects. Hopefully I won't spill a handful of membrane switch parts on the floor. I hate working on "other people's stuff". === In addition to testing your incoming power connections with a digital voltmeter, I'd also suggest using a 12 volt test light. Several times I've been fooled by circuits with a high resistance connection which looked fine on a DVM but dropped to zero volts with even a small load applied. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com |
Wish I didn't ....
On 8/9/2017 5:03 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 16:46:22 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 8/9/2017 4:32 PM, Its Me wrote: On Wednesday, August 9, 2017 at 3:59:53 PM UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 8/9/2017 2:15 PM, wrote: On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 13:50:30 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: I think the problem is on the PC board in the control unit. It's supposed to turn on, light up blue and display all the membrane switch areas and labels. It doesn't. Has 12 volts but doesn't turn on, That is the problem with most new things. Everything is on a single board that may only cost a few bucks to produce in some 3d world country but sells for hundreds of dollars. They seldom/never provide any documentation about what is on that board. With a little knowledge of what usually goes wrong, you might get lucky and find a bad part you can replace on the board but they are bad about using parts with no helpful markings on them. I would start with the most rudimentary thing that is not working and trace back to the 12v ... like those back lights. It may just be a diode or regulator on the front end. (the actual controls may be 5v) Are there any burned traces? Parts that look like they got hot? I usually try to draw out what I see going along the traces and hope it is not a multilayered board. I got into this trying to fix gate controller boards. Fixed a few, tossed a bunch. The chip that seemed to be the failing part on most was not documented and the manufacturer was no help. So far I have only seen one side of the control panel board. I plan to remove it completely and inspect it. There are a bunch of tiny diodes on it that are about the only things I can check (forward and reverse bias) if I scrape away some of the conformal coating but nothing else is testable that I can see so far. I think the problem *is* on the PC board but a replacement is not available. Once you get to where you can see both sides of the PC board, follow the power where it enters the board and look for a fuse onboard. It may not even look like a fuse. There are auto-resetting and one-shot current limit devices. If there is one it should be very close to the wire (or header) where the power attaches. Hopefully the board isn't multi-layer. Thanks. I'll look. This panel is supplied with battery voltage in three different places. All three supplies are good, at least on the terminal strip before it connects to the board. Don't know what happens after that and without removing the PC board, I can't see how it connects. Hopefully I won't spill a handful of membrane switch parts on the floor. I hate working on "other people's stuff". === In addition to testing your incoming power connections with a digital voltmeter, I'd also suggest using a 12 volt test light. Several times I've been fooled by circuits with a high resistance connection which looked fine on a DVM but dropped to zero volts with even a small load applied. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com Good point. I'll bring my old fashioned test light as well next time I go Easter Egging. :-) |
Wish I didn't ....
On Wednesday, August 9, 2017 at 4:46:30 PM UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 8/9/2017 4:32 PM, Its Me wrote: On Wednesday, August 9, 2017 at 3:59:53 PM UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 8/9/2017 2:15 PM, wrote: On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 13:50:30 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: I think the problem is on the PC board in the control unit. It's supposed to turn on, light up blue and display all the membrane switch areas and labels. It doesn't. Has 12 volts but doesn't turn on, That is the problem with most new things. Everything is on a single board that may only cost a few bucks to produce in some 3d world country but sells for hundreds of dollars. They seldom/never provide any documentation about what is on that board. With a little knowledge of what usually goes wrong, you might get lucky and find a bad part you can replace on the board but they are bad about using parts with no helpful markings on them. I would start with the most rudimentary thing that is not working and trace back to the 12v ... like those back lights. It may just be a diode or regulator on the front end. (the actual controls may be 5v) Are there any burned traces? Parts that look like they got hot? I usually try to draw out what I see going along the traces and hope it is not a multilayered board. I got into this trying to fix gate controller boards. Fixed a few, tossed a bunch. The chip that seemed to be the failing part on most was not documented and the manufacturer was no help. So far I have only seen one side of the control panel board. I plan to remove it completely and inspect it. There are a bunch of tiny diodes on it that are about the only things I can check (forward and reverse bias) if I scrape away some of the conformal coating but nothing else is testable that I can see so far. I think the problem *is* on the PC board but a replacement is not available. Once you get to where you can see both sides of the PC board, follow the power where it enters the board and look for a fuse onboard. It may not even look like a fuse. There are auto-resetting and one-shot current limit devices. If there is one it should be very close to the wire (or header) where the power attaches. Hopefully the board isn't multi-layer. Thanks. I'll look. This panel is supplied with battery voltage in three different places. All three supplies are good, at least on the terminal strip before it connects to the board. Don't know what happens after that and without removing the PC board, I can't see how it connects. Hopefully I won't spill a handful of membrane switch parts on the floor. I hate working on "other people's stuff". After thinking about it a little more, here are some other thoughts: - Many times the positive input to a circuit board in this kind of application will have a power diode in series. It's to protect the board from being hooked up backwards to battery power. Alert, bad ascii art! +V -||- board - The backlighting you described may not be turned on/off by the board's controller, unless one of the membrane switches is an on/off and is supposed to light the board up and give you control. A membrane switch doesn't toggle on/off on its own, and can't carry much current. It would have to activate something that likely turns on a relay that then supplies power to the lighting and controller. Or the controller chip is always powered on. Maybe a bad relay? - The controller chip will likely not run off 12 volts. There should be a regulator somewhere that takes it down to probably 5 volts. It could be bad. Look for a three legged device, probably on a heatsink, with some capacitors around it. - Hmmm... remove all power from the board, and then re-apply after 20-30 seconds. Maybe a re-boot is needed? - Hopefully, the membrane switches are a "sheet" switch, so there's nothing to spill. You can hope. :) In any case this will be a tough nut to crack, especially without a schematic and parts list, unless you can find an obvious smoking gun. Good luck! |
Wish I didn't ....
On 8/9/2017 8:37 PM, Its Me wrote:
On Wednesday, August 9, 2017 at 4:46:30 PM UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 8/9/2017 4:32 PM, Its Me wrote: On Wednesday, August 9, 2017 at 3:59:53 PM UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 8/9/2017 2:15 PM, wrote: On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 13:50:30 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: I think the problem is on the PC board in the control unit. It's supposed to turn on, light up blue and display all the membrane switch areas and labels. It doesn't. Has 12 volts but doesn't turn on, That is the problem with most new things. Everything is on a single board that may only cost a few bucks to produce in some 3d world country but sells for hundreds of dollars. They seldom/never provide any documentation about what is on that board. With a little knowledge of what usually goes wrong, you might get lucky and find a bad part you can replace on the board but they are bad about using parts with no helpful markings on them. I would start with the most rudimentary thing that is not working and trace back to the 12v ... like those back lights. It may just be a diode or regulator on the front end. (the actual controls may be 5v) Are there any burned traces? Parts that look like they got hot? I usually try to draw out what I see going along the traces and hope it is not a multilayered board. I got into this trying to fix gate controller boards. Fixed a few, tossed a bunch. The chip that seemed to be the failing part on most was not documented and the manufacturer was no help. So far I have only seen one side of the control panel board. I plan to remove it completely and inspect it. There are a bunch of tiny diodes on it that are about the only things I can check (forward and reverse bias) if I scrape away some of the conformal coating but nothing else is testable that I can see so far. I think the problem *is* on the PC board but a replacement is not available. Once you get to where you can see both sides of the PC board, follow the power where it enters the board and look for a fuse onboard. It may not even look like a fuse. There are auto-resetting and one-shot current limit devices. If there is one it should be very close to the wire (or header) where the power attaches. Hopefully the board isn't multi-layer. Thanks. I'll look. This panel is supplied with battery voltage in three different places. All three supplies are good, at least on the terminal strip before it connects to the board. Don't know what happens after that and without removing the PC board, I can't see how it connects. Hopefully I won't spill a handful of membrane switch parts on the floor. I hate working on "other people's stuff". After thinking about it a little more, here are some other thoughts: - Many times the positive input to a circuit board in this kind of application will have a power diode in series. It's to protect the board from being hooked up backwards to battery power. Alert, bad ascii art! +V -||- board - The backlighting you described may not be turned on/off by the board's controller, unless one of the membrane switches is an on/off and is supposed to light the board up and give you control. A membrane switch doesn't toggle on/off on its own, and can't carry much current. It would have to activate something that likely turns on a relay that then supplies power to the lighting and controller. Or the controller chip is always powered on. Maybe a bad relay? - The controller chip will likely not run off 12 volts. There should be a regulator somewhere that takes it down to probably 5 volts. It could be bad. Look for a three legged device, probably on a heatsink, with some capacitors around it. - Hmmm... remove all power from the board, and then re-apply after 20-30 seconds. Maybe a re-boot is needed? - Hopefully, the membrane switches are a "sheet" switch, so there's nothing to spill. You can hope. :) In any case this will be a tough nut to crack, especially without a schematic and parts list, unless you can find an obvious smoking gun. Good luck! Good thoughts and ideas. I had thought about the possibility of a protective diode and it's one of the reasons I'd like to take the board completely out and check them. They are small diodes though, but it may be all it needs. There *is* a main power on membrane button. Obviously right now it does nothing (doesn't turn the panel on) which made me suspicious of a diode as you suggested since it appears 12 volts is available to the PC board. I've tried the "alt-control-delete" thing :-) I actually disconnected the positive leads off off both house batteries just in case the panel power was not removed when the main battery switch is turned off. In fact, it's one of the suggested fixes to this problem. Unfortunately, it didn't reset or fix anything. The owner is away right now, so I won't get to try anything for a couple of days. Thanks for the suggestions. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com |
Wish I didn't ....
On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 15:59:43 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 8/9/2017 2:15 PM, wrote: On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 13:50:30 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: I think the problem is on the PC board in the control unit. It's supposed to turn on, light up blue and display all the membrane switch areas and labels. It doesn't. Has 12 volts but doesn't turn on, That is the problem with most new things. Everything is on a single board that may only cost a few bucks to produce in some 3d world country but sells for hundreds of dollars. They seldom/never provide any documentation about what is on that board. With a little knowledge of what usually goes wrong, you might get lucky and find a bad part you can replace on the board but they are bad about using parts with no helpful markings on them. I would start with the most rudimentary thing that is not working and trace back to the 12v ... like those back lights. It may just be a diode or regulator on the front end. (the actual controls may be 5v) Are there any burned traces? Parts that look like they got hot? I usually try to draw out what I see going along the traces and hope it is not a multilayered board. I got into this trying to fix gate controller boards. Fixed a few, tossed a bunch. The chip that seemed to be the failing part on most was not documented and the manufacturer was no help. So far I have only seen one side of the control panel board. I plan to remove it completely and inspect it. There are a bunch of tiny diodes on it that are about the only things I can check (forward and reverse bias) if I scrape away some of the conformal coating but nothing else is testable that I can see so far. I think the problem *is* on the PC board but a replacement is not available. I have not been riveted to this thread but Justan may be on to something. How complicated is the task this board accomplishes and can it be done with a few relays? Those black automotive "ice cube" relays are pretty robust (30a) and available just about anywhere. Sometime old school is the way to go. |
Wish I didn't ....
On Wednesday, August 9, 2017 at 9:54:44 PM UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 8/9/2017 8:37 PM, Its Me wrote: On Wednesday, August 9, 2017 at 4:46:30 PM UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 8/9/2017 4:32 PM, Its Me wrote: On Wednesday, August 9, 2017 at 3:59:53 PM UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 8/9/2017 2:15 PM, wrote: On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 13:50:30 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: I think the problem is on the PC board in the control unit. It's supposed to turn on, light up blue and display all the membrane switch areas and labels. It doesn't. Has 12 volts but doesn't turn on, That is the problem with most new things. Everything is on a single board that may only cost a few bucks to produce in some 3d world country but sells for hundreds of dollars. They seldom/never provide any documentation about what is on that board. With a little knowledge of what usually goes wrong, you might get lucky and find a bad part you can replace on the board but they are bad about using parts with no helpful markings on them. I would start with the most rudimentary thing that is not working and trace back to the 12v ... like those back lights. It may just be a diode or regulator on the front end. (the actual controls may be 5v) Are there any burned traces? Parts that look like they got hot? I usually try to draw out what I see going along the traces and hope it is not a multilayered board. I got into this trying to fix gate controller boards. Fixed a few, tossed a bunch. The chip that seemed to be the failing part on most was not documented and the manufacturer was no help. So far I have only seen one side of the control panel board. I plan to remove it completely and inspect it. There are a bunch of tiny diodes on it that are about the only things I can check (forward and reverse bias) if I scrape away some of the conformal coating but nothing else is testable that I can see so far. I think the problem *is* on the PC board but a replacement is not available. Once you get to where you can see both sides of the PC board, follow the power where it enters the board and look for a fuse onboard. It may not even look like a fuse. There are auto-resetting and one-shot current limit devices. If there is one it should be very close to the wire (or header) where the power attaches. Hopefully the board isn't multi-layer. Thanks. I'll look. This panel is supplied with battery voltage in three different places. All three supplies are good, at least on the terminal strip before it connects to the board. Don't know what happens after that and without removing the PC board, I can't see how it connects. Hopefully I won't spill a handful of membrane switch parts on the floor. I hate working on "other people's stuff". After thinking about it a little more, here are some other thoughts: - Many times the positive input to a circuit board in this kind of application will have a power diode in series. It's to protect the board from being hooked up backwards to battery power. Alert, bad ascii art! +V -||- board - The backlighting you described may not be turned on/off by the board's controller, unless one of the membrane switches is an on/off and is supposed to light the board up and give you control. A membrane switch doesn't toggle on/off on its own, and can't carry much current. It would have to activate something that likely turns on a relay that then supplies power to the lighting and controller. Or the controller chip is always powered on. Maybe a bad relay? - The controller chip will likely not run off 12 volts. There should be a regulator somewhere that takes it down to probably 5 volts. It could be bad. Look for a three legged device, probably on a heatsink, with some capacitors around it. - Hmmm... remove all power from the board, and then re-apply after 20-30 seconds. Maybe a re-boot is needed? - Hopefully, the membrane switches are a "sheet" switch, so there's nothing to spill. You can hope. :) In any case this will be a tough nut to crack, especially without a schematic and parts list, unless you can find an obvious smoking gun. Good luck! Good thoughts and ideas. I had thought about the possibility of a protective diode and it's one of the reasons I'd like to take the board completely out and check them. They are small diodes though, but it may be all it needs. There *is* a main power on membrane button. Obviously right now it does nothing (doesn't turn the panel on) which made me suspicious of a diode as you suggested since it appears 12 volts is available to the PC board. I've tried the "alt-control-delete" thing :-) I actually disconnected the positive leads off off both house batteries just in case the panel power was not removed when the main battery switch is turned off. In fact, it's one of the suggested fixes to this problem. Unfortunately, it didn't reset or fix anything. The owner is away right now, so I won't get to try anything for a couple of days. Thanks for the suggestions. Last thought... could be that the membrane switch for power on/off is bad. It won't send the signal to "wake up". I have that same issue with a remote ceiling fan controller right now. The fan buttons still work, but the light button quit. It's the kind with a circuit board that has two pads underneath a molded rubber sheet with conductive material on the back side of the buttons. Press the button, and the conductive rubber shorts the two pads. The conductive material has flaked off or worn away. Again, good luck. |
Wish I didn't ....
On 8/10/2017 1:09 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 15:59:43 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 8/9/2017 2:15 PM, wrote: On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 13:50:30 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: I think the problem is on the PC board in the control unit. It's supposed to turn on, light up blue and display all the membrane switch areas and labels. It doesn't. Has 12 volts but doesn't turn on, That is the problem with most new things. Everything is on a single board that may only cost a few bucks to produce in some 3d world country but sells for hundreds of dollars. They seldom/never provide any documentation about what is on that board. With a little knowledge of what usually goes wrong, you might get lucky and find a bad part you can replace on the board but they are bad about using parts with no helpful markings on them. I would start with the most rudimentary thing that is not working and trace back to the 12v ... like those back lights. It may just be a diode or regulator on the front end. (the actual controls may be 5v) Are there any burned traces? Parts that look like they got hot? I usually try to draw out what I see going along the traces and hope it is not a multilayered board. I got into this trying to fix gate controller boards. Fixed a few, tossed a bunch. The chip that seemed to be the failing part on most was not documented and the manufacturer was no help. So far I have only seen one side of the control panel board. I plan to remove it completely and inspect it. There are a bunch of tiny diodes on it that are about the only things I can check (forward and reverse bias) if I scrape away some of the conformal coating but nothing else is testable that I can see so far. I think the problem *is* on the PC board but a replacement is not available. I have not been riveted to this thread but Justan may be on to something. How complicated is the task this board accomplishes and can it be done with a few relays? Those black automotive "ice cube" relays are pretty robust (30a) and available just about anywhere. Sometime old school is the way to go. It's doable but I really don't want to get involved with tracing a whole bunch of unmarked wires with no diagrams to give you a clue as to where they go and what they control. Plus, it probably won't fix the level indicators for the fresh, grey and black water tanks. I've learned to be a little careful about what to sign up for on other people's equipment. Back in my Navy days I used to repair or do convergence and gun drive adjustments old CRT type TV sets, fixed VCR's, radios, etc. Once you touch it, you become "on call" for any future problems or issues. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com |
Wish I didn't ....
On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 08:51:11 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 8/10/2017 1:09 AM, wrote: I have not been riveted to this thread but Justan may be on to something. How complicated is the task this board accomplishes and can it be done with a few relays? Those black automotive "ice cube" relays are pretty robust (30a) and available just about anywhere. Sometime old school is the way to go. It's doable but I really don't want to get involved with tracing a whole bunch of unmarked wires with no diagrams to give you a clue as to where they go and what they control. Plus, it probably won't fix the level indicators for the fresh, grey and black water tanks. I've learned to be a little careful about what to sign up for on other people's equipment. Back in my Navy days I used to repair or do convergence and gun drive adjustments old CRT type TV sets, fixed VCR's, radios, etc. Once you touch it, you become "on call" for any future problems or issues. Good point, I missed that this wasn't yours. I think the safest bet is to just buy the card if you can prove that will fix it. That will be a problem in they are no longer in production but that is what Ebay is for ... assuming there is a good one left in the world that someone wants to part with. Usually the same things tend to fail over and over again. (engineering problem). It allows techs to look good and sell a lot of weak parts but it hurts the consumer. That was one of the things I did for a living, find defective engineering and get the real problem fixed at the plant level. |
Wish I didn't ....
On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 08:51:11 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:
On 8/10/2017 1:09 AM, wrote: On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 15:59:43 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 8/9/2017 2:15 PM, wrote: On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 13:50:30 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: I think the problem is on the PC board in the control unit. It's supposed to turn on, light up blue and display all the membrane switch areas and labels. It doesn't. Has 12 volts but doesn't turn on, That is the problem with most new things. Everything is on a single board that may only cost a few bucks to produce in some 3d world country but sells for hundreds of dollars. They seldom/never provide any documentation about what is on that board. With a little knowledge of what usually goes wrong, you might get lucky and find a bad part you can replace on the board but they are bad about using parts with no helpful markings on them. I would start with the most rudimentary thing that is not working and trace back to the 12v ... like those back lights. It may just be a diode or regulator on the front end. (the actual controls may be 5v) Are there any burned traces? Parts that look like they got hot? I usually try to draw out what I see going along the traces and hope it is not a multilayered board. I got into this trying to fix gate controller boards. Fixed a few, tossed a bunch. The chip that seemed to be the failing part on most was not documented and the manufacturer was no help. So far I have only seen one side of the control panel board. I plan to remove it completely and inspect it. There are a bunch of tiny diodes on it that are about the only things I can check (forward and reverse bias) if I scrape away some of the conformal coating but nothing else is testable that I can see so far. I think the problem *is* on the PC board but a replacement is not available. I have not been riveted to this thread but Justan may be on to something. How complicated is the task this board accomplishes and can it be done with a few relays? Those black automotive "ice cube" relays are pretty robust (30a) and available just about anywhere. Sometime old school is the way to go. It's doable but I really don't want to get involved with tracing a whole bunch of unmarked wires with no diagrams to give you a clue as to where they go and what they control. Plus, it probably won't fix the level indicators for the fresh, grey and black water tanks. I've learned to be a little careful about what to sign up for on other people's equipment. Back in my Navy days I used to repair or do convergence and gun drive adjustments old CRT type TV sets, fixed VCR's, radios, etc. Once you touch it, you become "on call" for any future problems or issues. I was telling a friend about this issue. He asked if your friend had contacted the Recreation Vehicle Industry Association. When I mentioned the rig was a 2013 and the company no longer made the part, his immediate suggestion was to call RVIA and give them the story. He's been an RV'er a long time. RVIA - 703-620-6003 |
Wish I didn't ....
On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 07:16:30 -0600 (MDT), justan wrote:
"Mr. Luddite" Wrote in message: On 8/10/2017 1:09 AM, wrote: On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 15:59:43 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 8/9/2017 2:15 PM, wrote: On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 13:50:30 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: I think the problem is on the PC board in the control unit. It's supposed to turn on, light up blue and display all the membrane switch areas and labels. It doesn't. Has 12 volts but doesn't turn on, That is the problem with most new things. Everything is on a single board that may only cost a few bucks to produce in some 3d world country but sells for hundreds of dollars. They seldom/never provide any documentation about what is on that board. With a little knowledge of what usually goes wrong, you might get lucky and find a bad part you can replace on the board but they are bad about using parts with no helpful markings on them. I would start with the most rudimentary thing that is not working and trace back to the 12v ... like those back lights. It may just be a diode or regulator on the front end. (the actual controls may be 5v) Are there any burned traces? Parts that look like they got hot? I usually try to draw out what I see going along the traces and hope it is not a multilayered board. I got into this trying to fix gate controller boards. Fixed a few, tossed a bunch. The chip that seemed to be the failing part on most was not documented and the manufacturer was no help. So far I have only seen one side of the control panel board. I plan to remove it completely and inspect it. There are a bunch of tiny diodes on it that are about the only things I can check (forward and reverse bias) if I scrape away some of the conformal coating but nothing else is testable that I can see so far. I think the problem *is* on the PC board but a replacement is not available. I have not been riveted to this thread but Justan may be on to something. How complicated is the task this board accomplishes and can it be done with a few relays? Those black automotive "ice cube" relays are pretty robust (30a) and available just about anywhere. Sometime old school is the way to go. It's doable but I really don't want to get involved with tracing a whole bunch of unmarked wires with no diagrams to give you a clue as to where they go and what they control. Plus, it probably won't fix the level indicators for the fresh, grey and black water tanks. I've learned to be a little careful about what to sign up for on other people's equipment. Back in my Navy days I used to repair or do convergence and gun drive adjustments old CRT type TV sets, fixed VCR's, radios, etc. Once you touch it, you become "on call" for any future problems or issues. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com The tank sensors are easier to fix than you think. Just replace the whole setup. Newer ones don't even drill into the tank. The sensors are just glued to the outside of the tank. This is one item that is pretty necessary to have working. Yeah, but....you have to get to the side of the tank, which means dropping the underbelly, and wire the things into the display. Or do they have their own display. We've not used ours since the rig was new. Just plan on dumping every four days or so. If there is not sewer and we're going to be there a while we carry a 'blue boy' along. |
Wish I didn't ....
On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 13:22:03 -0400, John H
wrote: We've not used ours since the rig was new. Just plan on dumping every four days or so. If there is not sewer and we're going to be there a while we carry a 'blue boy' along. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gd_qt_ijuSs |
Wish I didn't ....
On 8/15/17 4:12 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 13:22:03 -0400, John H wrote: We've not used ours since the rig was new. Just plan on dumping every four days or so. If there is not sewer and we're going to be there a while we carry a 'blue boy' along. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gd_qt_ijuSs Yuck. :( |
Wish I didn't ....
On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 16:12:49 -0400, wrote:
On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 13:22:03 -0400, John H wrote: We've not used ours since the rig was new. Just plan on dumping every four days or so. If there is not sewer and we're going to be there a while we carry a 'blue boy' along. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gd_qt_ijuSs Mine never gets that bad. Defecation is not permitted in our rig. |
Wish I didn't ....
On 8/15/2017 1:16 PM, John H wrote:
On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 08:51:11 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 8/10/2017 1:09 AM, wrote: On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 15:59:43 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 8/9/2017 2:15 PM, wrote: On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 13:50:30 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: I think the problem is on the PC board in the control unit. It's supposed to turn on, light up blue and display all the membrane switch areas and labels. It doesn't. Has 12 volts but doesn't turn on, That is the problem with most new things. Everything is on a single board that may only cost a few bucks to produce in some 3d world country but sells for hundreds of dollars. They seldom/never provide any documentation about what is on that board. With a little knowledge of what usually goes wrong, you might get lucky and find a bad part you can replace on the board but they are bad about using parts with no helpful markings on them. I would start with the most rudimentary thing that is not working and trace back to the 12v ... like those back lights. It may just be a diode or regulator on the front end. (the actual controls may be 5v) Are there any burned traces? Parts that look like they got hot? I usually try to draw out what I see going along the traces and hope it is not a multilayered board. I got into this trying to fix gate controller boards. Fixed a few, tossed a bunch. The chip that seemed to be the failing part on most was not documented and the manufacturer was no help. So far I have only seen one side of the control panel board. I plan to remove it completely and inspect it. There are a bunch of tiny diodes on it that are about the only things I can check (forward and reverse bias) if I scrape away some of the conformal coating but nothing else is testable that I can see so far. I think the problem *is* on the PC board but a replacement is not available. I have not been riveted to this thread but Justan may be on to something. How complicated is the task this board accomplishes and can it be done with a few relays? Those black automotive "ice cube" relays are pretty robust (30a) and available just about anywhere. Sometime old school is the way to go. It's doable but I really don't want to get involved with tracing a whole bunch of unmarked wires with no diagrams to give you a clue as to where they go and what they control. Plus, it probably won't fix the level indicators for the fresh, grey and black water tanks. I've learned to be a little careful about what to sign up for on other people's equipment. Back in my Navy days I used to repair or do convergence and gun drive adjustments old CRT type TV sets, fixed VCR's, radios, etc. Once you touch it, you become "on call" for any future problems or issues. I was telling a friend about this issue. He asked if your friend had contacted the Recreation Vehicle Industry Association. When I mentioned the rig was a 2013 and the company no longer made the part, his immediate suggestion was to call RVIA and give them the story. He's been an RV'er a long time. RVIA - 703-620-6003 I'll mention it to him but I doubt anyone can do much. Keystone screwed up royally with this fancy wireless system and won't support it at all anymore. Even the company who made it for them doesn't support it. Only made it for not quite two years before dumping it due to all the problems. I spent the day today trying one last time to find the problem with his rig. Took the control panel completely apart, down to the three layers of PC boards. Found a large reverse polarity protection power diode but it checked good. The rest of the circuitry consisted of chips that I have no way of testing. Was able to turn various systems on by jumping 12 volts to different unmarked wires, so the potential to rewire the whole thing using a panel with real switches instead of the silly membrane pads that send a signal to the main CPU in the front of the fiver. I can't believe Keystone went to all this trouble to get fancy with a panel that has a very simple job to do. Anyway, am reluctantly going to check into a replacement panel with real switches and rewire the thing. I really don't want to but I feel I've invested enough of my time into this now that I want to see success. Besides, the guy I am helping is really a decent **** but knows absolutely nothing about wires, switches or electricity. |
Wish I didn't ....
On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 16:40:27 -0400, John H
wrote: Mine never gets that bad. Defecation is not permitted in our rig. Hand them an entrenching tool and point them to the woods? ;-) |
Wish I didn't ....
On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 17:20:31 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:
On 8/15/2017 1:16 PM, John H wrote: On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 08:51:11 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 8/10/2017 1:09 AM, wrote: On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 15:59:43 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 8/9/2017 2:15 PM, wrote: On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 13:50:30 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: I think the problem is on the PC board in the control unit. It's supposed to turn on, light up blue and display all the membrane switch areas and labels. It doesn't. Has 12 volts but doesn't turn on, That is the problem with most new things. Everything is on a single board that may only cost a few bucks to produce in some 3d world country but sells for hundreds of dollars. They seldom/never provide any documentation about what is on that board. With a little knowledge of what usually goes wrong, you might get lucky and find a bad part you can replace on the board but they are bad about using parts with no helpful markings on them. I would start with the most rudimentary thing that is not working and trace back to the 12v ... like those back lights. It may just be a diode or regulator on the front end. (the actual controls may be 5v) Are there any burned traces? Parts that look like they got hot? I usually try to draw out what I see going along the traces and hope it is not a multilayered board. I got into this trying to fix gate controller boards. Fixed a few, tossed a bunch. The chip that seemed to be the failing part on most was not documented and the manufacturer was no help. So far I have only seen one side of the control panel board. I plan to remove it completely and inspect it. There are a bunch of tiny diodes on it that are about the only things I can check (forward and reverse bias) if I scrape away some of the conformal coating but nothing else is testable that I can see so far. I think the problem *is* on the PC board but a replacement is not available. I have not been riveted to this thread but Justan may be on to something. How complicated is the task this board accomplishes and can it be done with a few relays? Those black automotive "ice cube" relays are pretty robust (30a) and available just about anywhere. Sometime old school is the way to go. It's doable but I really don't want to get involved with tracing a whole bunch of unmarked wires with no diagrams to give you a clue as to where they go and what they control. Plus, it probably won't fix the level indicators for the fresh, grey and black water tanks. I've learned to be a little careful about what to sign up for on other people's equipment. Back in my Navy days I used to repair or do convergence and gun drive adjustments old CRT type TV sets, fixed VCR's, radios, etc. Once you touch it, you become "on call" for any future problems or issues. I was telling a friend about this issue. He asked if your friend had contacted the Recreation Vehicle Industry Association. When I mentioned the rig was a 2013 and the company no longer made the part, his immediate suggestion was to call RVIA and give them the story. He's been an RV'er a long time. RVIA - 703-620-6003 I'll mention it to him but I doubt anyone can do much. Keystone screwed up royally with this fancy wireless system and won't support it at all anymore. Even the company who made it for them doesn't support it. Only made it for not quite two years before dumping it due to all the problems. I spent the day today trying one last time to find the problem with his rig. Took the control panel completely apart, down to the three layers of PC boards. Found a large reverse polarity protection power diode but it checked good. The rest of the circuitry consisted of chips that I have no way of testing. Was able to turn various systems on by jumping 12 volts to different unmarked wires, so the potential to rewire the whole thing using a panel with real switches instead of the silly membrane pads that send a signal to the main CPU in the front of the fiver. I can't believe Keystone went to all this trouble to get fancy with a panel that has a very simple job to do. Anyway, am reluctantly going to check into a replacement panel with real switches and rewire the thing. I really don't want to but I feel I've invested enough of my time into this now that I want to see success. Besides, the guy I am helping is really a decent **** but knows absolutely nothing about wires, switches or electricity. Larry, my buddy, thought that there was a requirement somewhere for RV manufacturers to keep parts available for some amount of time after the rig was made. Did he try calling Bontrager's? |
Wish I didn't ....
On 8/15/2017 7:28 PM, John H wrote:
On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 17:20:31 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 8/15/2017 1:16 PM, John H wrote: On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 08:51:11 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 8/10/2017 1:09 AM, wrote: On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 15:59:43 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 8/9/2017 2:15 PM, wrote: On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 13:50:30 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: I think the problem is on the PC board in the control unit. It's supposed to turn on, light up blue and display all the membrane switch areas and labels. It doesn't. Has 12 volts but doesn't turn on, That is the problem with most new things. Everything is on a single board that may only cost a few bucks to produce in some 3d world country but sells for hundreds of dollars. They seldom/never provide any documentation about what is on that board. With a little knowledge of what usually goes wrong, you might get lucky and find a bad part you can replace on the board but they are bad about using parts with no helpful markings on them. I would start with the most rudimentary thing that is not working and trace back to the 12v ... like those back lights. It may just be a diode or regulator on the front end. (the actual controls may be 5v) Are there any burned traces? Parts that look like they got hot? I usually try to draw out what I see going along the traces and hope it is not a multilayered board. I got into this trying to fix gate controller boards. Fixed a few, tossed a bunch. The chip that seemed to be the failing part on most was not documented and the manufacturer was no help. So far I have only seen one side of the control panel board. I plan to remove it completely and inspect it. There are a bunch of tiny diodes on it that are about the only things I can check (forward and reverse bias) if I scrape away some of the conformal coating but nothing else is testable that I can see so far. I think the problem *is* on the PC board but a replacement is not available. I have not been riveted to this thread but Justan may be on to something. How complicated is the task this board accomplishes and can it be done with a few relays? Those black automotive "ice cube" relays are pretty robust (30a) and available just about anywhere. Sometime old school is the way to go. It's doable but I really don't want to get involved with tracing a whole bunch of unmarked wires with no diagrams to give you a clue as to where they go and what they control. Plus, it probably won't fix the level indicators for the fresh, grey and black water tanks. I've learned to be a little careful about what to sign up for on other people's equipment. Back in my Navy days I used to repair or do convergence and gun drive adjustments old CRT type TV sets, fixed VCR's, radios, etc. Once you touch it, you become "on call" for any future problems or issues. I was telling a friend about this issue. He asked if your friend had contacted the Recreation Vehicle Industry Association. When I mentioned the rig was a 2013 and the company no longer made the part, his immediate suggestion was to call RVIA and give them the story. He's been an RV'er a long time. RVIA - 703-620-6003 I'll mention it to him but I doubt anyone can do much. Keystone screwed up royally with this fancy wireless system and won't support it at all anymore. Even the company who made it for them doesn't support it. Only made it for not quite two years before dumping it due to all the problems. I spent the day today trying one last time to find the problem with his rig. Took the control panel completely apart, down to the three layers of PC boards. Found a large reverse polarity protection power diode but it checked good. The rest of the circuitry consisted of chips that I have no way of testing. Was able to turn various systems on by jumping 12 volts to different unmarked wires, so the potential to rewire the whole thing using a panel with real switches instead of the silly membrane pads that send a signal to the main CPU in the front of the fiver. I can't believe Keystone went to all this trouble to get fancy with a panel that has a very simple job to do. Anyway, am reluctantly going to check into a replacement panel with real switches and rewire the thing. I really don't want to but I feel I've invested enough of my time into this now that I want to see success. Besides, the guy I am helping is really a decent **** but knows absolutely nothing about wires, switches or electricity. Larry, my buddy, thought that there was a requirement somewhere for RV manufacturers to keep parts available for some amount of time after the rig was made. Did he try calling Bontrager's? Who is Bontrager's? He has tried everyone from Keystone to the company who they subcontracted the wireless control system from. They don't sell replacements or support the particular system he has. I've done a lot of research on it and it has many people who have had the same problem with it. Only solution is to replace it with a new panel that doesn't rely on the wireless feature. |
Wish I didn't ....
On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 21:17:43 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: He has tried everyone from Keystone to the company who they subcontracted the wireless control system from. They don't sell replacements or support the particular system he has. I've done a lot of research on it and it has many people who have had the same problem with it. Only solution is to replace it with a new panel that doesn't rely on the wireless feature. This RV business makes boats look like a cheap hobby |
Wish I didn't ....
Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 8/15/2017 7:28 PM, John H wrote: On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 17:20:31 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 8/15/2017 1:16 PM, John H wrote: On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 08:51:11 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 8/10/2017 1:09 AM, wrote: On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 15:59:43 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 8/9/2017 2:15 PM, wrote: On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 13:50:30 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: I think the problem is on the PC board in the control unit. It's supposed to turn on, light up blue and display all the membrane switch areas and labels. It doesn't. Has 12 volts but doesn't turn on, That is the problem with most new things. Everything is on a single board that may only cost a few bucks to produce in some 3d world country but sells for hundreds of dollars. They seldom/never provide any documentation about what is on that board. With a little knowledge of what usually goes wrong, you might get lucky and find a bad part you can replace on the board but they are bad about using parts with no helpful markings on them. I would start with the most rudimentary thing that is not working and trace back to the 12v ... like those back lights. It may just be a diode or regulator on the front end. (the actual controls may be 5v) Are there any burned traces? Parts that look like they got hot? I usually try to draw out what I see going along the traces and hope it is not a multilayered board. I got into this trying to fix gate controller boards. Fixed a few, tossed a bunch. The chip that seemed to be the failing part on most was not documented and the manufacturer was no help. So far I have only seen one side of the control panel board. I plan to remove it completely and inspect it. There are a bunch of tiny diodes on it that are about the only things I can check (forward and reverse bias) if I scrape away some of the conformal coating but nothing else is testable that I can see so far. I think the problem *is* on the PC board but a replacement is not available. I have not been riveted to this thread but Justan may be on to something. How complicated is the task this board accomplishes and can it be done with a few relays? Those black automotive "ice cube" relays are pretty robust (30a) and available just about anywhere. Sometime old school is the way to go. It's doable but I really don't want to get involved with tracing a whole bunch of unmarked wires with no diagrams to give you a clue as to where they go and what they control. Plus, it probably won't fix the level indicators for the fresh, grey and black water tanks. I've learned to be a little careful about what to sign up for on other people's equipment. Back in my Navy days I used to repair or do convergence and gun drive adjustments old CRT type TV sets, fixed VCR's, radios, etc. Once you touch it, you become "on call" for any future problems or issues. I was telling a friend about this issue. He asked if your friend had contacted the Recreation Vehicle Industry Association. When I mentioned the rig was a 2013 and the company no longer made the part, his immediate suggestion was to call RVIA and give them the story. He's been an RV'er a long time. RVIA - 703-620-6003 I'll mention it to him but I doubt anyone can do much. Keystone screwed up royally with this fancy wireless system and won't support it at all anymore. Even the company who made it for them doesn't support it. Only made it for not quite two years before dumping it due to all the problems. I spent the day today trying one last time to find the problem with his rig. Took the control panel completely apart, down to the three layers of PC boards. Found a large reverse polarity protection power diode but it checked good. The rest of the circuitry consisted of chips that I have no way of testing. Was able to turn various systems on by jumping 12 volts to different unmarked wires, so the potential to rewire the whole thing using a panel with real switches instead of the silly membrane pads that send a signal to the main CPU in the front of the fiver. I can't believe Keystone went to all this trouble to get fancy with a panel that has a very simple job to do. Anyway, am reluctantly going to check into a replacement panel with real switches and rewire the thing. I really don't want to but I feel I've invested enough of my time into this now that I want to see success. Besides, the guy I am helping is really a decent **** but knows absolutely nothing about wires, switches or electricity. Larry, my buddy, thought that there was a requirement somewhere for RV manufacturers to keep parts available for some amount of time after the rig was made. Did he try calling Bontrager's? Who is Bontrager's? He has tried everyone from Keystone to the company who they subcontracted the wireless control system from. They don't sell replacements or support the particular system he has. I've done a lot of research on it and it has many people who have had the same problem with it. Only solution is to replace it with a new panel that doesn't rely on the wireless feature. Design it, and sell the design. |
Wish I didn't ....
On Wed, 16 Aug 2017 02:27:05 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote: Mr. Luddite wrote: He has tried everyone from Keystone to the company who they subcontracted the wireless control system from. They don't sell replacements or support the particular system he has. I've done a lot of research on it and it has many people who have had the same problem with it. Only solution is to replace it with a new panel that doesn't rely on the wireless feature. Design it, and sell the design. I suspect that this is such a niche market that it is not worth the effort to set up a line and build them. It might be an idea for a guy who wants to run an Ebay business out of his garage but that does not sound like Richard. OTOH my neighbor went down to Marco to see the guy who is "Gem boat lift controllers" and that is exactly who he is. He seems to being doing OK. Of course there are a lot more boat lifts than that particular RV. |
Wish I didn't ....
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