In article Andy Champ writes:
WINDSURFER CLASSES CLASS D-PN WIND HC FOR BEAUFORT RANGE
CODE 0-1 2-3 4 5-9

Div II (SA = 6m2) SB-2 92.6 98.4 94.6 88.4 (85.1)
Div IIB (SA = 6-7m2) SB-2B 89.7 96.3 92.6 83.8 (82.0)
Div IIC (SA = 7m2) SB-2C 86.7 84.4 87.3

That puts the fastest boards about the same as a 470. faster than I
thought, but still not exactly world shattering.

Div II sailboards are from the early 1980s. Formula Windsurfing boards
can run circles around those, as long as there's enough wind, which
means about 8 knots minimum.

I'm not saying that they're the fastest thing out there of all
sailing vessels for a course...I'm just stating that the table
you have quoted is antiquated.

Formula boards go upwind pretty well. Not the best in terms of angle,
but very good speed, so the VMG is probably respectable. Local racers
seem to think that 49ers would be better in light winds, but formula
boards could win in medium to high winds. Even in medium to light
winds, it's very close and skill plays a huge part.

It's nice to see that a widely crossposted thread like this hasn't
ended up as a flame war - yet.

--
Juri Munkki What you see isn't all you get.
http://www.iki.fi/jmunkki Windsurfing: Faster than the wind.

You are right Juri, the yachting world still thinks windsurfers are all 12
feet long and have retractable center boards with smallish sails like 7.4
and 6 m2. I like both sailing worlds and sail in both. Until the 70 cm
fins and formula boards came along, beating any performance yacht around a
course was almost impossible. Now for almost any sailboat to beat a Formula
board around a course would require the winds to be under about 9 knots,
provided the board is sailed by a top racer of course.

On another point, for all out fun and feel for speed, the now old Flying
Dutchman was a fun boat and plenty lively, but perhaps not in today's league
of high performance boats. Still, the FD in high winds was quite a thrill.
And as to the reference to sailboats pulling water skiers, there are more
than a few that can do that including a venerable old Mallory and Adams Cup
boat called the Flying Scot. I mention the Scot because these were raced
against M20's from time to time and I remember one collision. It seems the
Scot is like a flying tank (planes easily but is a big hull) and the M20 is
more like a china plate. These two boats came to together on a plane and
the Scot T-boned the M20, crushing it like an egg. That may be the only way
a Formula board (when powered up) would lose to a sailboat. No doubt our
Formula boards are the king of egg shells.

CI

"Juri Munkki" wrote in message
...
In article Andy Champ
writes:
WINDSURFER CLASSES CLASS D-PN WIND HC FOR BEAUFORT RANGE
CODE 0-1 2-3 4 5-9

Div II (SA = 6m2) SB-2 92.6 98.4 94.6 88.4 (85.1)
Div IIB (SA = 6-7m2) SB-2B 89.7 96.3 92.6 83.8 (82.0)
Div IIC (SA = 7m2) SB-2C 86.7 84.4 87.3

That puts the fastest boards about the same as a 470. faster than I
thought, but still not exactly world shattering.

Div II sailboards are from the early 1980s. Formula Windsurfing boards
can run circles around those, as long as there's enough wind, which
means about 8 knots minimum.

I'm not saying that they're the fastest thing out there of all
sailing vessels for a course...I'm just stating that the table
you have quoted is antiquated.

Formula boards go upwind pretty well. Not the best in terms of angle,
but very good speed, so the VMG is probably respectable. Local racers
seem to think that 49ers would be better in light winds, but formula
boards could win in medium to high winds. Even in medium to light
winds, it's very close and skill plays a huge part.

It's nice to see that a widely crossposted thread like this hasn't
ended up as a flame war - yet.

--
Juri Munkki What you see isn't all you get.
http://www.iki.fi/jmunkki Windsurfing: Faster than the wind.

Both Jeff Feehan and I have reported on chasing keelboats around a course.
While it is true that either a longboard or a Formula board can have better
VMG on any point of sail than pretty much any monohull, those favorable
conditions often don't last for the whole course. It is not top speed that
wins the race, it is the average speed, and that is strongly affected by
good sailing as well has having the right equipment for the job. I feel
that I actually do better against the speedy dingys than the big, race
oriented and well sailed keel boats. Their VMG upwind can be very
impressive. If there is good wind, of course I am faster downwind, but the
trick is to stay close enough on the upwind legs.

Jack (Sarasota)

"Charles Ivey" wrote in message
news:7m3Ib.27894$HQ.23100@okepread02...
You are right Juri, the yachting world still thinks windsurfers are all 12
feet long and have retractable center boards with smallish sails like 7.4
and 6 m2. I like both sailing worlds and sail in both. Until the 70 cm
fins and formula boards came along, beating any performance yacht around a
course was almost impossible. Now for almost any sailboat to beat a
Formula
board around a course would require the winds to be under about 9 knots,
provided the board is sailed by a top racer of course.

On another point, for all out fun and feel for speed, the now old Flying
Dutchman was a fun boat and plenty lively, but perhaps not in today's
league
of high performance boats. Still, the FD in high winds was quite a
thrill.
And as to the reference to sailboats pulling water skiers, there are more
than a few that can do that including a venerable old Mallory and Adams
Cup
boat called the Flying Scot. I mention the Scot because these were raced
against M20's from time to time and I remember one collision. It seems
the
Scot is like a flying tank (planes easily but is a big hull) and the M20
is
more like a china plate. These two boats came to together on a plane and
the Scot T-boned the M20, crushing it like an egg. That may be the only
way
a Formula board (when powered up) would lose to a sailboat. No doubt our
Formula boards are the king of egg shells.

CI

"Juri Munkki" wrote in message
...
In article Andy Champ
writes:
WINDSURFER CLASSES CLASS D-PN WIND HC FOR BEAUFORT RANGE
CODE 0-1 2-3 4 5-9

Div II (SA = 6m2) SB-2 92.6 98.4 94.6 88.4 (85.1)
Div IIB (SA = 6-7m2) SB-2B 89.7 96.3 92.6 83.8 (82.0)
Div IIC (SA = 7m2) SB-2C 86.7 84.4 87.3

That puts the fastest boards about the same as a 470. faster than I
thought, but still not exactly world shattering.

Div II sailboards are from the early 1980s. Formula Windsurfing boards
can run circles around those, as long as there's enough wind, which
means about 8 knots minimum.

I'm not saying that they're the fastest thing out there of all
sailing vessels for a course...I'm just stating that the table
you have quoted is antiquated.

Formula boards go upwind pretty well. Not the best in terms of angle,
but very good speed, so the VMG is probably respectable. Local racers
seem to think that 49ers would be better in light winds, but formula
boards could win in medium to high winds. Even in medium to light
winds, it's very close and skill plays a huge part.

It's nice to see that a widely crossposted thread like this hasn't
ended up as a flame war - yet.

--
Juri Munkki What you see isn't all you get.
http://www.iki.fi/jmunkki Windsurfing: Faster than the wind.

jack is right, i have had very little luck going upwind against keelboats
with formula gear on long island sound over long distances. yes, i can
beat them upwind over short distances - say a few hundred meters - when
the wind is up. but i have never beaten them over the full length of say
a 2-3 km beat. i belive this is mostly because of the relatively
light wind on long island sound in the summer when the keelboats are out
racing.

formula sailors from windy places, like san francisco, regularly report
beating keelboats around the full length of windward-leeward courses.
a figure of 8kts was quoted in this thread as the crossover windspeed
where formula boards can beat keelboats. i would put the figure higher,
maybe at an average windspeed of 12-14 kts, with no lulls below about
10kts. this is to beat a good boat that is well sailed, not a cruising
tub with nobody on the rail. these conditions are incredibly rare on
summer weekends on long island sound - about the only time there are
boats out racing for me to tune against. the caveat is that i don't
have a 12.5 m^2 sail, my biggest is an 11.0. and, i don't get to race
formula very much, so my skills may be lacking. on the other hand,
i do own and race a variety of dinghys and keelboats, so i understand
the basics of racing upwind.

jeff feehan

Jack (Sarasota) wrote:
Both Jeff Feehan and I have reported on chasing keelboats around a course.
While it is true that either a longboard or a Formula board can have better
VMG on any point of sail than pretty much any monohull, those favorable
conditions often don't last for the whole course. It is not top speed that
wins the race, it is the average speed, and that is strongly affected by
good sailing as well has having the right equipment for the job. I feel
that I actually do better against the speedy dingys than the big, race
oriented and well sailed keel boats. Their VMG upwind can be very
impressive. If there is good wind, of course I am faster downwind, but the
trick is to stay close enough on the upwind legs.

Jack (Sarasota)

"Charles Ivey" wrote in message
news:7m3Ib.27894$HQ.23100@okepread02...

You are right Juri, the yachting world still thinks windsurfers are all 12
feet long and have retractable center boards with smallish sails like 7.4
and 6 m2. I like both sailing worlds and sail in both. Until the 70 cm
fins and formula boards came along, beating any performance yacht around a
course was almost impossible. Now for almost any sailboat to beat a

Formula

board around a course would require the winds to be under about 9 knots,
provided the board is sailed by a top racer of course.

On another point, for all out fun and feel for speed, the now old Flying
Dutchman was a fun boat and plenty lively, but perhaps not in today's

league

of high performance boats. Still, the FD in high winds was quite a

thrill.

And as to the reference to sailboats pulling water skiers, there are more
than a few that can do that including a venerable old Mallory and Adams

Cup

boat called the Flying Scot. I mention the Scot because these were raced
against M20's from time to time and I remember one collision. It seems

the

Scot is like a flying tank (planes easily but is a big hull) and the M20

is

more like a china plate. These two boats came to together on a plane and
the Scot T-boned the M20, crushing it like an egg. That may be the only

way

a Formula board (when powered up) would lose to a sailboat. No doubt our
Formula boards are the king of egg shells.

CI

"Juri Munkki" wrote in message
...

In article Andy Champ

writes:

WINDSURFER CLASSES CLASS D-PN WIND HC FOR BEAUFORT RANGE
CODE 0-1 2-3 4 5-9

Div II (SA = 6m2) SB-2 92.6 98.4 94.6 88.4 (85.1)
Div IIB (SA = 6-7m2) SB-2B 89.7 96.3 92.6 83.8 (82.0)
Div IIC (SA = 7m2) SB-2C 86.7 84.4 87.3

That puts the fastest boards about the same as a 470. faster than I
thought, but still not exactly world shattering.

Div II sailboards are from the early 1980s. Formula Windsurfing boards
can run circles around those, as long as there's enough wind, which
means about 8 knots minimum.

I'm not saying that they're the fastest thing out there of all
sailing vessels for a course...I'm just stating that the table
you have quoted is antiquated.

Formula boards go upwind pretty well. Not the best in terms of angle,
but very good speed, so the VMG is probably respectable. Local racers
seem to think that 49ers would be better in light winds, but formula
boards could win in medium to high winds. Even in medium to light
winds, it's very close and skill plays a huge part.

It's nice to see that a widely crossposted thread like this hasn't
ended up as a flame war - yet.

--
Juri Munkki What you see isn't all you get.
http://www.iki.fi/jmunkki Windsurfing: Faster than the wind.

Juri Munkki wrote:
I'm not saying that they're the fastest thing out there of all
sailing vessels for a course...I'm just stating that the table
you have quoted is antiquated.

Best table I could find. There's nothing on the RYA, and that is US
sailing's entire sailboard table. If you have something more recent I;m
sure we'd all like to see it!

I'm not surprised that a 2000-date board can beat my boat BTW - it was
designed in 1950-something. I'm quite aware that what I am doing is the
marine equivalent of racing a Norton...

Andy.

There are still Fireballs sailing (Worlds are due to start on Friday in
Adelaide) so if you still own one why not sail it? We still drink beer and
go like hell!

--
Mike McEvoy
Fireball CAN 13890
Catalina 30 #860

See the Fireball home page at http://www.lo0.com/fireball/
or Visit the message board
http://members.boardhost.com/fireball/
"Prev1" wrote in message
om...
"Steven J. Ross" sross45atcomcast.net wrote in message
...
Hello, If you check the Portsmith handicap numbers. The A-Scow smokes
all
other centerboard monohulls including the M-20. I've seen a picture of
one
pulling a water skier.

Best Wishes, Steve Ross

http://www.ussailing.org/portsmouth/...tables03cb.htm

"Harken Ronstan" wrote in message
om...
What is the fastest mono-hull (non-sailboard)on a windward leeward or
triangle course these days?

I estimate: 505, Intl 14 GP, 49er, 18ft skiff are contenders.
Since they all plane up wind, waterline is less of an issue so I would
guess larger craft like an E scow, and A scow are in this class.


Funny that the M-20 looks like a Fireball, which I still own. I
sailed it for 10 years including with world record holders in the
Fireball class. It was fast and fun, but certainly not compared to
windsurfing! It was intersting to see that it's rating was in low
80's, which is respectable. This was the dingly class of are yacht
clubs a while back. The problem was they turned out to be too much
boat for the Jr's and the they turtled and got stuck in the mud. I
did manage to drink excessive amounts of beer, sail solo with all
three sails up and go like hell. Thanks for the memories.


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.555 / Virus Database: 347 - Release Date: 12/23/2003

Dear Sloped A-hole.

This is "rec.boats.racing" NOT "alt.sailing"
Current fastest production mono-hull is Outer Limits 39' with
1400 hp twins and Merc #6 dry-sump drives. 147+ mph

Still has Reggie PO'd


"Harken Ronstan" wrote in message
om...
What is the fastest mono-hull (non-sailboard)on a windward leeward or
triangle course these days?

I estimate: 505, Intl 14 GP, 49er, 18ft skiff are contenders.
Since they all plane up wind, waterline is less of an issue so I would
guess larger craft like an E scow, and A scow are in this class.

I think you'll find sailboards can't keep up on a proper course, they
are damn fast on a reach and not in any other direction.


brian wrote:
Andy,
there's this race in San Francisco, USA. It's between two bridges,
dead downwind. Anything powered by wind can enter. Kite boarders,
18ft skiffs, windsurfers. 2002 Kite boarder won, followed by a
windsurfer 2nd, followed by an 18ft skiff. 2003 Windsurfer won,
followed by an 18ft skiff.

I saw part of this race, and it looked to me like the windsurfer was going
much faster in spurts but the skiff was keeping up. The final result was
that the 'board won by about 30 seconds.

In general I think Andy's remark is accurate, windsurfers are very very
fast reching, but they are not much (if any) faster around a regular race
course... especially windward/leeward...




The skiffs do ok upwind but are still behind the windsurfer at the
upwind mark.
I proved that to myself today. There was some racing today on
Biscyane Bay.
420s, 29ers. I let the 29ers clear there start line. I sailed after
them on my windsurfer. Upwind downwind course proper. When I rounded
the upwind mark ahead of them, I waited till they rounded and passed
me, then I started for the downwind, past them all and was first to
the downwind.

Sorry, a 29er is hardly in the same league with the 18-footer skiffs.
Shucks, a lowly Johnson 18 will beat a 29er all day every day, and it
doesn't even have a trap.

I've beaten windsurfers around triangular courses in a Laser 2 and in a
470, and while I never raced one formally in the Johnson 18 we often pass
them when doing casual sprints.



AC boats would win the upwind in less then 10 knots. 10knots the
windsurfer would be waiting at the mark for the AC boat.

It's possible, depending on the conditions and the board & the boardsailor.
Wouldn't a chop slow down the windurfer, too?

In any event, remarks like mine are not going to go over well on the
windsurfer group where people say things like "a Lechner (ie very old heavy
windsurfer) will smoke any regular sailboat" which is laughable.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

DSK wrote:
I think you'll find sailboards can't keep up on a proper course, they
are damn fast on a reach and not in any other direction.


brian wrote:
Andy,
there's this race in San Francisco, USA. It's between two bridges,
dead downwind. Anything powered by wind can enter. Kite boarders,
18ft skiffs, windsurfers. 2002 Kite boarder won, followed by a
windsurfer 2nd, followed by an 18ft skiff. 2003 Windsurfer won,
followed by an 18ft skiff.


I saw part of this race, and it looked to me like the windsurfer was going
much faster in spurts but the skiff was keeping up. The final result was
that the 'board won by about 30 seconds.

In general I think Andy's remark is accurate, windsurfers are very very
fast reching, but they are not much (if any) faster around a regular race
course... especially windward/leeward...


well, being "not much (if any) faster" than a keelboat or skiff around
a windward leeward is considered pretty great by most windsurfers
familiar with the problems involved. it was only a few years ago - like
maybe 4, that even that would have been imposssible. as you say, windsurfers
are fast on a reach, but they have always been. their good windward/leeward
speed is a relatively new phenomenon, it represents a dramatic performance
increase over trhe last few years.

jeff feehan






The skiffs do ok upwind but are still behind the windsurfer at the
upwind mark.
I proved that to myself today. There was some racing today on
Biscyane Bay.
420s, 29ers. I let the 29ers clear there start line. I sailed after
them on my windsurfer. Upwind downwind course proper. When I rounded
the upwind mark ahead of them, I waited till they rounded and passed
me, then I started for the downwind, past them all and was first to
the downwind.


Sorry, a 29er is hardly in the same league with the 18-footer skiffs.
Shucks, a lowly Johnson 18 will beat a 29er all day every day, and it
doesn't even have a trap.

I've beaten windsurfers around triangular courses in a Laser 2 and in a
470, and while I never raced one formally in the Johnson 18 we often pass
them when doing casual sprints.



AC boats would win the upwind in less then 10 knots. 10knots the
windsurfer would be waiting at the mark for the AC boat.


It's possible, depending on the conditions and the board & the boardsailor.
Wouldn't a chop slow down the windurfer, too?

In any event, remarks like mine are not going to go over well on the
windsurfer group where people say things like "a Lechner (ie very old heavy
windsurfer) will smoke any regular sailboat" which is laughable.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

jeff feehan wrote:


well, being "not much (if any) faster" than a keelboat or skiff around
a windward leeward is considered pretty great by most windsurfers
familiar with the problems involved.

Sure. Faster = better
But you still can't pop a beer while windsurfing, or bring a friend.

BTW I have not had a chance to benchmark the speed of these kitesurfers against
any of the boats I sail. From watching them, they seem to prefer reaching back &
forth.


it was only a few years ago - like
maybe 4, that even that would have been imposssible. as you say, windsurfers
are fast on a reach, but they have always been. their good windward/leeward
speed is a relatively new phenomenon, it represents a dramatic performance
increase over trhe last few years.

Well, monohull performance has increased in the past few years too. There are
more controllable rigs, screechers, square tops, improved foil designs, etc etc.
But it seems to me that improvements in windsurfers are more widely distributed
faster than in small fast monohulls. Especially one-design classes, most of which
are actually rather backwards-looking and Luddite.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King