On 6/19/2017 5:46 PM, justan wrote:
"Mr. Luddite" Wrote in message:
On 6/19/2017 9:26 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 6/19/17 9:20 AM, Tim wrote:
FWIW, I picked this up from a French gentleman in FB.

"In France whe have more informations ...
It's a japanese container carrier boat but With a Philippine flag and
crew.
And this boat at the Last moment abruptly changed his direction ...
Investigation is underway With this crew..."


NPR has a pretty decent early analysis of what might have gone
wrong...it includes this about a previous incident on a similar
high-tech ship:

Sailors in the Fitzgerald's combat information center and on its bridge
are responsible for using the ship's sensors to plot the location of
each one, as well as the directions they're headed and the speed at
which they're sailing. Officers and sailors must at all times keep what
the Navy calls good "situational awareness" about not only what their
own ship is doing, but about what might be ahead in the next patch of
ocean where the Fitzgerald wants to sail.

In 2012 a sibling of the Fitzgerald, the destroyer USS Porter, was in a
congested, high-traffic seaway called the Strait of Hormuz ? the ribbon
of water that connects the Persian Gulf with the Arabian Sea ? when it
collided with an oil tanker. The Navy's investigation later found that
as sailors tried to keep track of the traffic all around them, including
those ships headed the other direction, they lost focus on their own
immediate course ahead.


Ergo, the high technology doesn't always promote good seamanship.
Training as careful sailors may be more important than training as
operators of computer consoles.


It will probably please you to know that Navy ships do not rely only on
computer consoles for situational awareness. Ask any sailor who has
stood watches while underway.



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Harry couldn't possibly have situational awareness of any military
situations.


Not when he equates union ship operators to the US Navy. LOL!

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 6/18/2017 1:37 AM, Bill wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 17 Jun 2017 17:01:29 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


Saw the pictures of the USS Fitzgerald and the merchant container ship
that were involved in a collision.

The bow of the merchant ship obviously hit the destroyer on it's
starboard side. Maritime rules say (if memory serves) a powered
vessel
crossing from right to left is the "stand on" vessel and the other is
the "give way" vessel and is required to turn to starboard and pass
astern of the other, stop or take other evasive action to avoid a
collision.


National Maritime College Rule:

"When two power-driven vessels are in crossing situation on a
collision
course, give way to the vessel to starboard (right).The give way
vessel
must take early and obvious action to avoid a collision by either
stopping or altering course to starboard."

Based on the damage to the merchant ship's bow and the damage to the
destroyer's starboard side, it appears the destroyer tried to cut
across
the bow of the merchant ship. There may have been other factors
obviously, like other vessels in the area.





Any time you have damage on your starboard side the question of
burdened vessel might come up. Was the freighter overtaking?

This certainly looks like a 90 degree shot tho, not a glancing blow.




Looked like an angle shot as the container ship bow is not caved in, but
the front near the anchor is tore up.


Sadly, they found the missing sailors dead in their flooded berthing
compartment.





I read a report that the bulbous bow of the container ship created a
hole below the waterline. That would explain the massive amount of
water pumping non-stop on the trip to the harbor. It would also explain
the drownings and give some better insight as to the angle of the
collision.

On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 19:41:02 -0400, Alex wrote:

I read a report that the bulbous bow of the container ship created a
hole below the waterline. That would explain the massive amount of
water pumping non-stop on the trip to the harbor. It would also explain
the drownings and give some better insight as to the angle of the
collision.

===

Yes. Most people do not appreciate just how big the underwater bow
bulbs are on those boats.

On Monday, June 19, 2017 at 11:20:46 AM UTC-7, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 6/19/17 1:09 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 13:00:00 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

On 6/19/17 12:05 PM, wrote:


I am still waiting for more information before I start jumping to
conclusions.
I have seen the track of the freighter but I have not seen that laid
down over the track of the destroyer. There is a lot of chatter out
there but not much that has been confirmed.

As for the ship itself, WWII pretty much proved big heavily armored
"battleships" were just bigger targets. They were really only useful
for shore bombardment. Light and fast is better than slow and tough
because armor seldom actually stood up to a large naval rifle in the
first place. Most naval museums seem to show a piece of armor over a
foot thick with a bullet hole in it. These days the hole is likely to
be through the deck anyway, even from a missile.


Well, I'm betting on lack of knowledge of what happens or can happen at
sea, too much dependence on computer monitors, and not enough time on
ship operations simulators, assuming the navy uses them.

There may be too much dependence on technology but unless things have
really changed there was no shortage of drills and actual experience
on a ship. I doubt there are any simulators. There may be a shortage
of experienced sailors tho as turnover is a big problem in all of the
services.


Hmm. The U.S. maritime trades unions have big time ships operation
simulators for training. So do some European nations. Some years ago, I
got to "drive" (and crash) a tanker on one of the union simulators.

US maritime trade unions don't have ship simulators you lying sack of ****. and you never drove a tanker simulator at any union school.

The only "Union" simulator I"m aware of is in Piney Point MD, and thats a load/offload simulator. Made for dumbass lumpers ie Stevedores/Longshoreman.

US Maritime academys are not union organized you idiot.
What I learned and forgot, You'll never know.

Do you ever stop lying?

On 6/19/17 11:45 PM, wrote:
On Monday, June 19, 2017 at 11:20:46 AM UTC-7, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 6/19/17 1:09 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 13:00:00 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

On 6/19/17 12:05 PM, wrote:


I am still waiting for more information before I start jumping to
conclusions.
I have seen the track of the freighter but I have not seen that laid
down over the track of the destroyer. There is a lot of chatter out
there but not much that has been confirmed.

As for the ship itself, WWII pretty much proved big heavily armored
"battleships" were just bigger targets. They were really only useful
for shore bombardment. Light and fast is better than slow and tough
because armor seldom actually stood up to a large naval rifle in the
first place. Most naval museums seem to show a piece of armor over a
foot thick with a bullet hole in it. These days the hole is likely to
be through the deck anyway, even from a missile.


Well, I'm betting on lack of knowledge of what happens or can happen at
sea, too much dependence on computer monitors, and not enough time on
ship operations simulators, assuming the navy uses them.

There may be too much dependence on technology but unless things have
really changed there was no shortage of drills and actual experience
on a ship. I doubt there are any simulators. There may be a shortage
of experienced sailors tho as turnover is a big problem in all of the
services.


Hmm. The U.S. maritime trades unions have big time ships operation
simulators for training. So do some European nations. Some years ago, I
got to "drive" (and crash) a tanker on one of the union simulators.

US maritime trade unions don't have ship simulators you lying sack of ****. and you never drove a tanker simulator at any union school.

The only "Union" simulator I"m aware of is in Piney Point MD, and thats a load/offload simulator. Made for dumbass lumpers ie Stevedores/Longshoreman.

US Maritime academys are not union organized you idiot.
What I learned and forgot, You'll never know.

Do you ever stop lying?


The stupidity with which you post here - consistently, I might add -
never ceases to amaze.

U.S. maritime trades unions *do* have large-scale ship simulators. The
Maritime Institute of Training and Technology has two large campuses,
one in Linthicum, Maryland, and the other on the west coast. Both are
facilities owned and operated by the International Organization of
Masters, Mates and Pilots (IOMM&P). It is an affiliate of the AFL-CIO
through the Longshoremen's Association. It is a labor union.

I've been to the Linthicum facility, called MITAGS, at least two dozen
times over the years. It is a college campus, with classrooms, dorms,
dining halls, and more. The union rents out its facilities to other
unions. It is next to BWI airport.

Here is a piece from its web site:

The International Organization of Masters, Mates & Pilots (MM&P) boasts
two state-of-the art training facilities, the Maritime Institute of
Technology & Graduate Studies (MITAGS) and the Pacific Maritime
Institute (PMI).

MITAGS is conveniently located on a scenic, 80-acre campus fewer
than five miles from Baltimore/Washington International (BWI) Airport,
Amtrak Rail and Interstate 95. The Pacific Maritime Institute (PMI), a
subsidiary of MITAGS, is located in Seattle, Wash.

MITAGS and PMI offer continuing education and customized curricula,
based on the use of the most advanced techniques and technology, for
professional mariners and other maritime industry employees. MITAGS is
known for its STN Atlas Full Mission Ship Simulator, which attracts
professional mariners from all over the world. Managers and instructors
at MITAGS and PMI assist companies, union members and other
organizations to address challenges in the areas of maritime training,
planning, education and safety.

The school has over 300,000 square feet of building space, with 100,000
square feet dedicated to maritime training activities. It is also home
to the International Longshoremen’s Association Crane Training Center.
This state-of-the-art crane simulator, one of six in the world, provides
realistic training for ship gantry, ship pedestal, dock gantry, twin
lift and mobile cranes.

In addition to its training activities, MITAGS also operates the
Conference Center at the Maritime Institute (CCMIT). With over 55
meeting areas, CCMIT is one of the largest training and conference
centers in the Baltimore/Washington area.

Did you notice the mention of the STN Atlas Full Mission Ship Simulator?

Do you even know what that is? That's the unit I got to fool around with
for about a half hour.

I've also been to the Seafarers facility at Piney Point. It also has
simulators.

When it comes to these facilities, MITAGS and Piney Point, you don't
know your ass from a hole in the ground. But that's like just about
everything else in your life, buddyboy.

On Tuesday, June 20, 2017 at 4:53:39 AM UTC-7, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 6/19/17 11:45 PM, wrote:
On Monday, June 19, 2017 at 11:20:46 AM UTC-7, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 6/19/17 1:09 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 13:00:00 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

On 6/19/17 12:05 PM, wrote:


I am still waiting for more information before I start jumping to
conclusions.
I have seen the track of the freighter but I have not seen that laid
down over the track of the destroyer. There is a lot of chatter out
there but not much that has been confirmed.

As for the ship itself, WWII pretty much proved big heavily armored
"battleships" were just bigger targets. They were really only useful
for shore bombardment. Light and fast is better than slow and tough
because armor seldom actually stood up to a large naval rifle in the
first place. Most naval museums seem to show a piece of armor over a
foot thick with a bullet hole in it. These days the hole is likely to
be through the deck anyway, even from a missile.


Well, I'm betting on lack of knowledge of what happens or can happen at
sea, too much dependence on computer monitors, and not enough time on
ship operations simulators, assuming the navy uses them.

There may be too much dependence on technology but unless things have
really changed there was no shortage of drills and actual experience
on a ship. I doubt there are any simulators. There may be a shortage
of experienced sailors tho as turnover is a big problem in all of the
services.


Hmm. The U.S. maritime trades unions have big time ships operation
simulators for training. So do some European nations. Some years ago, I
got to "drive" (and crash) a tanker on one of the union simulators.

US maritime trade unions don't have ship simulators you lying sack of ****. and you never drove a tanker simulator at any union school.

The only "Union" simulator I"m aware of is in Piney Point MD, and thats a load/offload simulator. Made for dumbass lumpers ie Stevedores/Longshoreman.

US Maritime academys are not union organized you idiot.
What I learned and forgot, You'll never know.

Do you ever stop lying?


The stupidity with which you post here - consistently, I might add -
never ceases to amaze.

U.S. maritime trades unions *do* have large-scale ship simulators. The
Maritime Institute of Training and Technology has two large campuses,
one in Linthicum, Maryland, and the other on the west coast. Both are
facilities owned and operated by the International Organization of
Masters, Mates and Pilots (IOMM&P). It is an affiliate of the AFL-CIO
through the Longshoremen's Association. It is a labor union.

I've been to the Linthicum facility, called MITAGS, at least two dozen
times over the years. It is a college campus, with classrooms, dorms,
dining halls, and more. The union rents out its facilities to other
unions. It is next to BWI airport.

Here is a piece from its web site:

The International Organization of Masters, Mates & Pilots (MM&P) boasts
two state-of-the art training facilities, the Maritime Institute of
Technology & Graduate Studies (MITAGS) and the Pacific Maritime
Institute (PMI).

MITAGS is conveniently located on a scenic, 80-acre campus fewer
than five miles from Baltimore/Washington International (BWI) Airport,
Amtrak Rail and Interstate 95. The Pacific Maritime Institute (PMI), a
subsidiary of MITAGS, is located in Seattle, Wash.

MITAGS and PMI offer continuing education and customized curricula,
based on the use of the most advanced techniques and technology, for
professional mariners and other maritime industry employees. MITAGS is
known for its STN Atlas Full Mission Ship Simulator, which attracts
professional mariners from all over the world. Managers and instructors
at MITAGS and PMI assist companies, union members and other
organizations to address challenges in the areas of maritime training,
planning, education and safety.

The school has over 300,000 square feet of building space, with 100,000
square feet dedicated to maritime training activities. It is also home
to the International Longshoremen’s Association Crane Training Center.
This state-of-the-art crane simulator, one of six in the world, provides
realistic training for ship gantry, ship pedestal, dock gantry, twin
lift and mobile cranes.

In addition to its training activities, MITAGS also operates the
Conference Center at the Maritime Institute (CCMIT). With over 55
meeting areas, CCMIT is one of the largest training and conference
centers in the Baltimore/Washington area.

Did you notice the mention of the STN Atlas Full Mission Ship Simulator?

Do you even know what that is? That's the unit I got to fool around with
for about a half hour.

I've also been to the Seafarers facility at Piney Point. It also has
simulators.

When it comes to these facilities, MITAGS and Piney Point, you don't
know your ass from a hole in the ground. But that's like just about
everything else in your life, buddyboy.

You googled MMP, How cute.
You're still full of ****, and a liar to boot.

On 6/21/17 12:06 AM, wrote:
On Tuesday, June 20, 2017 at 4:53:39 AM UTC-7, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 6/19/17 11:45 PM, wrote:
On Monday, June 19, 2017 at 11:20:46 AM UTC-7, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 6/19/17 1:09 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 13:00:00 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

On 6/19/17 12:05 PM, wrote:


I am still waiting for more information before I start jumping to
conclusions.
I have seen the track of the freighter but I have not seen that laid
down over the track of the destroyer. There is a lot of chatter out
there but not much that has been confirmed.

As for the ship itself, WWII pretty much proved big heavily armored
"battleships" were just bigger targets. They were really only useful
for shore bombardment. Light and fast is better than slow and tough
because armor seldom actually stood up to a large naval rifle in the
first place. Most naval museums seem to show a piece of armor over a
foot thick with a bullet hole in it. These days the hole is likely to
be through the deck anyway, even from a missile.


Well, I'm betting on lack of knowledge of what happens or can happen at
sea, too much dependence on computer monitors, and not enough time on
ship operations simulators, assuming the navy uses them.

There may be too much dependence on technology but unless things have
really changed there was no shortage of drills and actual experience
on a ship. I doubt there are any simulators. There may be a shortage
of experienced sailors tho as turnover is a big problem in all of the
services.


Hmm. The U.S. maritime trades unions have big time ships operation
simulators for training. So do some European nations. Some years ago, I
got to "drive" (and crash) a tanker on one of the union simulators.

US maritime trade unions don't have ship simulators you lying sack of ****. and you never drove a tanker simulator at any union school.

The only "Union" simulator I"m aware of is in Piney Point MD, and thats a load/offload simulator. Made for dumbass lumpers ie Stevedores/Longshoreman.

US Maritime academys are not union organized you idiot.
What I learned and forgot, You'll never know.

Do you ever stop lying?


The stupidity with which you post here - consistently, I might add -
never ceases to amaze.

U.S. maritime trades unions *do* have large-scale ship simulators. The
Maritime Institute of Training and Technology has two large campuses,
one in Linthicum, Maryland, and the other on the west coast. Both are
facilities owned and operated by the International Organization of
Masters, Mates and Pilots (IOMM&P). It is an affiliate of the AFL-CIO
through the Longshoremen's Association. It is a labor union.

I've been to the Linthicum facility, called MITAGS, at least two dozen
times over the years. It is a college campus, with classrooms, dorms,
dining halls, and more. The union rents out its facilities to other
unions. It is next to BWI airport.

Here is a piece from its web site:

The International Organization of Masters, Mates & Pilots (MM&P) boasts
two state-of-the art training facilities, the Maritime Institute of
Technology & Graduate Studies (MITAGS) and the Pacific Maritime
Institute (PMI).

MITAGS is conveniently located on a scenic, 80-acre campus fewer
than five miles from Baltimore/Washington International (BWI) Airport,
Amtrak Rail and Interstate 95. The Pacific Maritime Institute (PMI), a
subsidiary of MITAGS, is located in Seattle, Wash.

MITAGS and PMI offer continuing education and customized curricula,
based on the use of the most advanced techniques and technology, for
professional mariners and other maritime industry employees. MITAGS is
known for its STN Atlas Full Mission Ship Simulator, which attracts
professional mariners from all over the world. Managers and instructors
at MITAGS and PMI assist companies, union members and other
organizations to address challenges in the areas of maritime training,
planning, education and safety.

The school has over 300,000 square feet of building space, with 100,000
square feet dedicated to maritime training activities. It is also home
to the International Longshoremen’s Association Crane Training Center.
This state-of-the-art crane simulator, one of six in the world, provides
realistic training for ship gantry, ship pedestal, dock gantry, twin
lift and mobile cranes.

In addition to its training activities, MITAGS also operates the
Conference Center at the Maritime Institute (CCMIT). With over 55
meeting areas, CCMIT is one of the largest training and conference
centers in the Baltimore/Washington area.

Did you notice the mention of the STN Atlas Full Mission Ship Simulator?

Do you even know what that is? That's the unit I got to fool around with
for about a half hour.

I've also been to the Seafarers facility at Piney Point. It also has
simulators.

When it comes to these facilities, MITAGS and Piney Point, you don't
know your ass from a hole in the ground. But that's like just about
everything else in your life, buddyboy.

You googled MMP, How cute.
You're still full of ****, and a liar to boot.


Indeed, I did google...but I've been to MITAGS many times and, of
course, provided absolute proof that when it comes to these facilities
and their training capabilities and gear, you don't know your ass from
your elbow. The best thing you could do is slink away on your scaly
skin, snakepuss.


From moore-dd:

" US maritime trade unions don't have ship simulators you lying sack
of ****. and you never drove a tanker simulator at any union school.

The only "Union" simulator I"m aware of is in Piney Point MD, and
thats a load/offload simulator. Made for dumbass lumpers ie
Stevedores/Longshoreman.


Completely, entirely, absolutely...wrong. Now, perhaps you can crawl
into the sack with "Alex" here and play with his gun. You two are two of
a kind.