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#11
posted to rec.boats
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Destroyer/Container ship collision
On Sun, 18 Jun 2017 11:45:52 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 6/18/2017 10:37 AM, wrote: On Sun, 18 Jun 2017 08:20:45 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote: . I would have thought a modern warship would be able to sustain a heavy hit like it took without being so seriously damaged. The days of the armor clad dreadnought are gone. Ships are light and fast. Like Richard says, this was a sports car getting hit by a semi. It is amazing it did not sustain more damage. There was still something strange going on here to have this kind of crash. The plot I saw showed some unusual maneuvers but it was unclear if that was before or after the accident. I still think there was a junior officer who had the conn on the bridge and he/she screwed up. The Navy has already acknowledged "human error". Yup I agree. The OD was probably on the bridge and the rumor is the captain was in his quarters, right where the topside damage occurred. I doubt most people understand how seldom the captain actually has the "con". In the CG the quartermaster and a couple guys on the deck watch were actually driving the ship. The OD was somewhere nearby and the captain was wandering around or in his quarters most of the time. In the North Atlantic we could go weeks without ever seeing another ship so this kind of thing was not in the offing. When we were maneuvering around Norfolk, everyone was wide awake and the captain was on the bridge. |
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#13
posted to rec.boats
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Destroyer/Container ship collision
On 6/18/2017 3:33 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 18 Jun 2017 12:40:33 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 18 Jun 2017 11:45:52 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 6/18/2017 10:37 AM, wrote: On Sun, 18 Jun 2017 08:20:45 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote: . I would have thought a modern warship would be able to sustain a heavy hit like it took without being so seriously damaged. The days of the armor clad dreadnought are gone. Ships are light and fast. Like Richard says, this was a sports car getting hit by a semi. It is amazing it did not sustain more damage. There was still something strange going on here to have this kind of crash. The plot I saw showed some unusual maneuvers but it was unclear if that was before or after the accident. I still think there was a junior officer who had the conn on the bridge and he/she screwed up. The Navy has already acknowledged "human error". Yup I agree. The OD was probably on the bridge and the rumor is the captain was in his quarters, right where the topside damage occurred. I doubt most people understand how seldom the captain actually has the "con". In the CG the quartermaster and a couple guys on the deck watch were actually driving the ship. The OD was somewhere nearby and the captain was wandering around or in his quarters most of the time. In the North Atlantic we could go weeks without ever seeing another ship so this kind of thing was not in the offing. When we were maneuvering around Norfolk, everyone was wide awake and the captain was on the bridge. === One of the scarriest things I've ever done was to come in off the ocean to Norfolk harbor in the middle of the night. The amount of big ship traffic is incredible, and the shore lights are bright enough to obscure most of the nav lights on both ships and nav aids. It was mostly flying blind on radar and the GPS plotter all the way. It boggles my mind how that destroyer could have let the container ship get that close. We have good radar on our trawler but it is nothing compared to what the navy has. We would typically pick up a boat that size 15 miles away and start tracking the point of closest approach (CPA). Any CPA less than a mile gets my undivided attention until resolved. Worst experience I had was on the Egg Harbor. I took a bunch of guys out cod fishing to my "secret" spot which is 32 miles out from Scituate Harbor, pretty much in the main shipping lane going into Boston. On clear days it's no problem drift fishing there but on this particular day it fogged up suddenly and visibility was down to about 20 feet in front of the bow. I started heading back to Scituate ... slowly ... and my brother helped monitor the radar. On two occasions we approached traffic crossing in front of us, some from port and some from starboard. I knew the ColRegs but you can't assume the operator of the other vessel knows or obeys them so you have to be very careful. I don't like navigating in heavy fog like that. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com |
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#14
posted to rec.boats
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Destroyer/Container ship collision
On Sun, 18 Jun 2017 15:33:36 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote: On Sun, 18 Jun 2017 12:40:33 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 18 Jun 2017 11:45:52 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 6/18/2017 10:37 AM, wrote: On Sun, 18 Jun 2017 08:20:45 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote: . I would have thought a modern warship would be able to sustain a heavy hit like it took without being so seriously damaged. The days of the armor clad dreadnought are gone. Ships are light and fast. Like Richard says, this was a sports car getting hit by a semi. It is amazing it did not sustain more damage. There was still something strange going on here to have this kind of crash. The plot I saw showed some unusual maneuvers but it was unclear if that was before or after the accident. I still think there was a junior officer who had the conn on the bridge and he/she screwed up. The Navy has already acknowledged "human error". Yup I agree. The OD was probably on the bridge and the rumor is the captain was in his quarters, right where the topside damage occurred. I doubt most people understand how seldom the captain actually has the "con". In the CG the quartermaster and a couple guys on the deck watch were actually driving the ship. The OD was somewhere nearby and the captain was wandering around or in his quarters most of the time. In the North Atlantic we could go weeks without ever seeing another ship so this kind of thing was not in the offing. When we were maneuvering around Norfolk, everyone was wide awake and the captain was on the bridge. === One of the scarriest things I've ever done was to come in off the ocean to Norfolk harbor in the middle of the night. The amount of big ship traffic is incredible, and the shore lights are bright enough to obscure most of the nav lights on both ships and nav aids. It was mostly flying blind on radar and the GPS plotter all the way. It boggles my mind how that destroyer could have let the container ship get that close. We have good radar on our trawler but it is nothing compared to what the navy has. We would typically pick up a boat that size 15 miles away and start tracking the point of closest approach (CPA). Any CPA less than a mile gets my undivided attention until resolved. One of the guys on the real boat board is analysing the track of the freighter and says it looks like it was on autopilot at the time of the crash and they may not have actually gone back to manual control for 15 or 20 minutes. There may not have been anyone on the bridge. The track from AIS is all over the internet right now and the supposition is the erratic movement was after the crash but there is some discrepancy about when the crash happened. It seems everyone is being pretty quiet about this right now. There is a black box on that ship and the navy should have accurate logs so somebody knows exactly what happened. |
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#15
posted to rec.boats
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Destroyer/Container ship collision
On Sun, 18 Jun 2017 16:24:24 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 6/18/2017 3:33 PM, Wayne.B wrote: On Sun, 18 Jun 2017 12:40:33 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 18 Jun 2017 11:45:52 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 6/18/2017 10:37 AM, wrote: On Sun, 18 Jun 2017 08:20:45 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote: . I would have thought a modern warship would be able to sustain a heavy hit like it took without being so seriously damaged. The days of the armor clad dreadnought are gone. Ships are light and fast. Like Richard says, this was a sports car getting hit by a semi. It is amazing it did not sustain more damage. There was still something strange going on here to have this kind of crash. The plot I saw showed some unusual maneuvers but it was unclear if that was before or after the accident. I still think there was a junior officer who had the conn on the bridge and he/she screwed up. The Navy has already acknowledged "human error". Yup I agree. The OD was probably on the bridge and the rumor is the captain was in his quarters, right where the topside damage occurred. I doubt most people understand how seldom the captain actually has the "con". In the CG the quartermaster and a couple guys on the deck watch were actually driving the ship. The OD was somewhere nearby and the captain was wandering around or in his quarters most of the time. In the North Atlantic we could go weeks without ever seeing another ship so this kind of thing was not in the offing. When we were maneuvering around Norfolk, everyone was wide awake and the captain was on the bridge. === One of the scarriest things I've ever done was to come in off the ocean to Norfolk harbor in the middle of the night. The amount of big ship traffic is incredible, and the shore lights are bright enough to obscure most of the nav lights on both ships and nav aids. It was mostly flying blind on radar and the GPS plotter all the way. It boggles my mind how that destroyer could have let the container ship get that close. We have good radar on our trawler but it is nothing compared to what the navy has. We would typically pick up a boat that size 15 miles away and start tracking the point of closest approach (CPA). Any CPA less than a mile gets my undivided attention until resolved. Worst experience I had was on the Egg Harbor. I took a bunch of guys out cod fishing to my "secret" spot which is 32 miles out from Scituate Harbor, pretty much in the main shipping lane going into Boston. On clear days it's no problem drift fishing there but on this particular day it fogged up suddenly and visibility was down to about 20 feet in front of the bow. I started heading back to Scituate ... slowly ... and my brother helped monitor the radar. On two occasions we approached traffic crossing in front of us, some from port and some from starboard. I knew the ColRegs but you can't assume the operator of the other vessel knows or obeys them so you have to be very careful. I don't like navigating in heavy fog like that. === It takes a lot of practice with radar to get even halfway comfortable with using it as a substitute for good visibility. And then you go through a period of time when you question whether or not the radar is correct when there is some discrepency between what you think you are seeing with your eyes and what the radar is reporting. It's not a slam dunk. The latest thing in electronic nav aids is something called AIS which is like an electronic transponder that constantly reports a ships position, speed and course. It's a big help with sorting out complex situations and also gives you the ships name, size and destination. We've seen a lot of military vessels that do not broadcast an AIS position however for fairly obvious reasons. That could have been a factor in the collision if the destroyer was not broadcasting and the crew of the containership were overly reliant on AIS. |
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#16
posted to rec.boats
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Destroyer/Container ship collision
On 6/18/2017 4:38 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 18 Jun 2017 15:33:36 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: On Sun, 18 Jun 2017 12:40:33 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 18 Jun 2017 11:45:52 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 6/18/2017 10:37 AM, wrote: On Sun, 18 Jun 2017 08:20:45 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote: . I would have thought a modern warship would be able to sustain a heavy hit like it took without being so seriously damaged. The days of the armor clad dreadnought are gone. Ships are light and fast. Like Richard says, this was a sports car getting hit by a semi. It is amazing it did not sustain more damage. There was still something strange going on here to have this kind of crash. The plot I saw showed some unusual maneuvers but it was unclear if that was before or after the accident. I still think there was a junior officer who had the conn on the bridge and he/she screwed up. The Navy has already acknowledged "human error". Yup I agree. The OD was probably on the bridge and the rumor is the captain was in his quarters, right where the topside damage occurred. I doubt most people understand how seldom the captain actually has the "con". In the CG the quartermaster and a couple guys on the deck watch were actually driving the ship. The OD was somewhere nearby and the captain was wandering around or in his quarters most of the time. In the North Atlantic we could go weeks without ever seeing another ship so this kind of thing was not in the offing. When we were maneuvering around Norfolk, everyone was wide awake and the captain was on the bridge. === One of the scarriest things I've ever done was to come in off the ocean to Norfolk harbor in the middle of the night. The amount of big ship traffic is incredible, and the shore lights are bright enough to obscure most of the nav lights on both ships and nav aids. It was mostly flying blind on radar and the GPS plotter all the way. It boggles my mind how that destroyer could have let the container ship get that close. We have good radar on our trawler but it is nothing compared to what the navy has. We would typically pick up a boat that size 15 miles away and start tracking the point of closest approach (CPA). Any CPA less than a mile gets my undivided attention until resolved. One of the guys on the real boat board is analysing the track of the freighter and says it looks like it was on autopilot at the time of the crash and they may not have actually gone back to manual control for 15 or 20 minutes. There may not have been anyone on the bridge. The track from AIS is all over the internet right now and the supposition is the erratic movement was after the crash but there is some discrepancy about when the crash happened. It seems everyone is being pretty quiet about this right now. There is a black box on that ship and the navy should have accurate logs so somebody knows exactly what happened. Regardless of what was going on on the freighter or who was officially to blame the CO of the Fitgerald's career is over assuming he recovers from his injuries. Groundings and collisions are two things that result in loss of command and usually a court-martial in the US Navy. Doesn't matter if the CO was on the bridge, sleeping in his rack or taking a dump in the head. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com |
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#17
posted to rec.boats
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Destroyer/Container ship collision
On 6/18/2017 5:30 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 18 Jun 2017 16:24:24 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 6/18/2017 3:33 PM, Wayne.B wrote: On Sun, 18 Jun 2017 12:40:33 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 18 Jun 2017 11:45:52 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 6/18/2017 10:37 AM, wrote: On Sun, 18 Jun 2017 08:20:45 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote: . I would have thought a modern warship would be able to sustain a heavy hit like it took without being so seriously damaged. The days of the armor clad dreadnought are gone. Ships are light and fast. Like Richard says, this was a sports car getting hit by a semi. It is amazing it did not sustain more damage. There was still something strange going on here to have this kind of crash. The plot I saw showed some unusual maneuvers but it was unclear if that was before or after the accident. I still think there was a junior officer who had the conn on the bridge and he/she screwed up. The Navy has already acknowledged "human error". Yup I agree. The OD was probably on the bridge and the rumor is the captain was in his quarters, right where the topside damage occurred. I doubt most people understand how seldom the captain actually has the "con". In the CG the quartermaster and a couple guys on the deck watch were actually driving the ship. The OD was somewhere nearby and the captain was wandering around or in his quarters most of the time. In the North Atlantic we could go weeks without ever seeing another ship so this kind of thing was not in the offing. When we were maneuvering around Norfolk, everyone was wide awake and the captain was on the bridge. === One of the scarriest things I've ever done was to come in off the ocean to Norfolk harbor in the middle of the night. The amount of big ship traffic is incredible, and the shore lights are bright enough to obscure most of the nav lights on both ships and nav aids. It was mostly flying blind on radar and the GPS plotter all the way. It boggles my mind how that destroyer could have let the container ship get that close. We have good radar on our trawler but it is nothing compared to what the navy has. We would typically pick up a boat that size 15 miles away and start tracking the point of closest approach (CPA). Any CPA less than a mile gets my undivided attention until resolved. Worst experience I had was on the Egg Harbor. I took a bunch of guys out cod fishing to my "secret" spot which is 32 miles out from Scituate Harbor, pretty much in the main shipping lane going into Boston. On clear days it's no problem drift fishing there but on this particular day it fogged up suddenly and visibility was down to about 20 feet in front of the bow. I started heading back to Scituate ... slowly ... and my brother helped monitor the radar. On two occasions we approached traffic crossing in front of us, some from port and some from starboard. I knew the ColRegs but you can't assume the operator of the other vessel knows or obeys them so you have to be very careful. I don't like navigating in heavy fog like that. === It takes a lot of practice with radar to get even halfway comfortable with using it as a substitute for good visibility. And then you go through a period of time when you question whether or not the radar is correct when there is some discrepency between what you think you are seeing with your eyes and what the radar is reporting. It's not a slam dunk. The latest thing in electronic nav aids is something called AIS which is like an electronic transponder that constantly reports a ships position, speed and course. It's a big help with sorting out complex situations and also gives you the ships name, size and destination. We've seen a lot of military vessels that do not broadcast an AIS position however for fairly obvious reasons. That could have been a factor in the collision if the destroyer was not broadcasting and the crew of the containership were overly reliant on AIS. Sounds similar to a transponder on an aircraft. But still, it's pretty much a given that a powered ship or boat that is hit on it's starboard beam when in a crossing situation is at fault. It is required to give way, stop or take action to avoid the collision. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com |
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#18
posted to rec.boats
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Destroyer/Container ship collision
On 6/18/17 12:40 PM, wrote:
On 6/18/2017 10:37 AM, wrote: On Sun, 18 Jun 2017 08:20:45 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote: . I would have thought a modern warship would be able to sustain a heavy hit like it took without being so seriously damaged. The days of the armor clad dreadnought are gone. Ships are light and fast. Like Richard says, this was a sports car getting hit by a semi. It is amazing it did not sustain more damage. There was still something strange going on here to have this kind of crash. The plot I saw showed some unusual maneuvers but it was unclear if that was before or after the accident. Well, I'm not a metallurgist and I don't play one on the internets (!), but it seems to me that in the age of missiles, a lightly built warship is an invitation to disaster. |
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#19
posted to rec.boats
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Destroyer/Container ship collision
On 6/19/2017 7:38 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 6/18/17 12:40 PM, wrote: On 6/18/2017 10:37 AM, wrote: On Sun, 18 Jun 2017 08:20:45 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote: . I would have thought a modern warship would be able to sustain a heavy hit like it took without being so seriously damaged. The days of the armor clad dreadnought are gone. Ships are light and fast. Like Richard says, this was a sports car getting hit by a semi. It is amazing it did not sustain more damage. There was still something strange going on here to have this kind of crash. The plot I saw showed some unusual maneuvers but it was unclear if that was before or after the accident. Well, I'm not a metallurgist and I don't play one on the internets (!), but it seems to me that in the age of missiles, a lightly built warship is an invitation to disaster. That's because you don't understand the capabilities of the Aegis system that all the Arleigh Burke class destroyers and the few cruisers we have are equipped with. The Aegis system can track 100 or missiles simultaneously, target those that threaten the ship while transmitting targeting data to other Aegis equipped ships for targeting purposes. It can create a "web" of missile targeting data, designed to defend and protect not only itself but also other ships (like aircraft carriers) that may be targeted. No ship is designed to be rammed by another ship that is 6 times it's displacement traveling at 15 knots. In combat situations an enemy ship wouldn't get close to it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegis_Combat_System --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com |
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#20
posted to rec.boats
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Destroyer/Container ship collision
On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 07:38:50 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote: On 6/18/17 12:40 PM, wrote: On 6/18/2017 10:37 AM, wrote: On Sun, 18 Jun 2017 08:20:45 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote: . I would have thought a modern warship would be able to sustain a heavy hit like it took without being so seriously damaged. The days of the armor clad dreadnought are gone. Ships are light and fast. Like Richard says, this was a sports car getting hit by a semi. It is amazing it did not sustain more damage. There was still something strange going on here to have this kind of crash. The plot I saw showed some unusual maneuvers but it was unclear if that was before or after the accident. Well, I'm not a metallurgist and I don't play one on the internets (!), but it seems to me that in the age of missiles, a lightly built warship is an invitation to disaster. === A well placed missle can destroy a heavily built battleship just as easily as a lightly built destroyer. A good defense against missles and small, fast surface craft is key for any kind of warship these days. Look at what an outboard powered skiff did to the USS Cole as an example of that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Cole_bombing |
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