On 6/2/2017 4:58 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 2 Jun 2017 07:09:21 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


Car is still at the dealership (since Tuesday morning). They told me
that the heater core was airlocked and they had drained the coolant,
purged and replaced it and thought it was fixed but when they tested it,
no heat again. Repeated the purging process without success. Still no
heat.

The service manager told me they have a call in to Nissan for assistance
in finding the problem.

I am going to go there later this morning and let them know what the
problem is.

When I picked up the car last Saturday evening and drove it home I
noticed a slight electrical burning odor coming from the engine
compartment. I noticed it again on Sunday but then it went away.
Didn't smell it again.

I informed the service manager of the odor when I brought it in on
Tuesday but they sorta brushed it off saying the car was new and it was
probably just things getting hot for the first time.

Maybe, but I know the difference between a new "hot" odor and an
electrical burning odor.

Anyway, after doing some Google "research" I discovered that there is a
motor driven coolant control valve in the engine compartment, mounted on
the firewall. When the climate control calls for heat, the motor opens
the valve, allowing coolant to flow through the heater core. When no
heat is called for or air conditioning is being used, it closes.

I think the valve was stuck or jammed shut from the factory. When the
little motor tried to open it, it first overheated and eventually burnt
out which accounts for the electrical burning odor that then went away.
It also accounts for no heat, obviously.

Need to be diplomatic though. Sometimes you can **** people off by
trying to be helpful, especially when *they* are supposed to be the experts.



You sound right to me. That "air lock" thing is BS unless the plumbing
to the heater core is radically different than any car I have ever
seen.


We'll see. As I've mentioned in other posts the delay in fixing it is
because they have to get authorization from Nissan to do anything other
than what is in the standard, recommended repair instruction for a given
problem. The dealership won't be compensated for a warranty repair
otherwise.

After 15 days it will be subject to Massachusetts Lemon Law issues. I
don't expect that nor do I want it but it becomes an option at that
point. The other Lemon Law qualifier is an attempt to fix a problem 3
times on 3 different occasions.

Back in 1997 I bought a new Dodge Ram pickup from the same dealership.
I soon discovered that at exactly 42 mph it started to buck and hop as
if I was pulling a heavy trailer. I took it back and initially they did
the "cannot duplicate problem" response until I took the service manager
for a ride and demonstrated it. He agreed something was wrong and they
tore the engine apart looking for something in the troubleshooting
section of the Dodge service manual. Reassembled the engine and the
"hop" was still there. They finally contacted the regional Dodge rep
who came out and took a ride with me as I demonstrated the problem. He
acknowledged that there was definitely something wrong and said he'd
report back to Dodge about it. He said that in the meantime I could go
back to the dealer and pick out a new truck.

He then called me and asked if I'd be willing to allow them to try one
more thing. I said sure. They replaced the whole rear end of the
truck, complete with axle, differential, wheels, ... the whole thing.
Hop was now gone. A month later they sent me a letter. The original
rear end had been inspected by Dodge and the problem turned out to be a
faulty limited slip differential.

On Fri, 2 Jun 2017 20:09:01 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

You sound right to me. That "air lock" thing is BS unless the plumbing
to the heater core is radically different than any car I have ever
seen.


We'll see. As I've mentioned in other posts the delay in fixing it is
because they have to get authorization from Nissan to do anything other
than what is in the standard, recommended repair instruction for a given
problem. The dealership won't be compensated for a warranty repair
otherwise.

After 15 days it will be subject to Massachusetts Lemon Law issues. I
don't expect that nor do I want it but it becomes an option at that
point. The other Lemon Law qualifier is an attempt to fix a problem 3
times on 3 different occasions.

Back in 1997 I bought a new Dodge Ram pickup from the same dealership.
I soon discovered that at exactly 42 mph it started to buck and hop as
if I was pulling a heavy trailer. I took it back and initially they did
the "cannot duplicate problem" response until I took the service manager
for a ride and demonstrated it. He agreed something was wrong and they
tore the engine apart looking for something in the troubleshooting
section of the Dodge service manual. Reassembled the engine and the
"hop" was still there. They finally contacted the regional Dodge rep
who came out and took a ride with me as I demonstrated the problem. He
acknowledged that there was definitely something wrong and said he'd
report back to Dodge about it. He said that in the meantime I could go
back to the dealer and pick out a new truck.

He then called me and asked if I'd be willing to allow them to try one
more thing. I said sure. They replaced the whole rear end of the
truck, complete with axle, differential, wheels, ... the whole thing.
Hop was now gone. A month later they sent me a letter. The original
rear end had been inspected by Dodge and the problem turned out to be a
faulty limited slip differential.

I had a similar issue with my jeep and it turned out to be a cracked
gear carrier in the rear axle. They can do strange stuff. I figured
mine out by removing the drive shaft to the rear and running it as a
FWD for a few days, no failure. Then I pulled the bucket from the rear
and saw the problem. Fortunately that was a pretty standard Borg
Warner part and I could get one locally. 2 or 3 times in and out to
get it shimmed right and I was good as new.

On Fri, 2 Jun 2017 07:09:21 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:


Car is still at the dealership (since Tuesday morning). They told me
that the heater core was airlocked and they had drained the coolant,
purged and replaced it and thought it was fixed but when they tested it,
no heat again. Repeated the purging process without success. Still no
heat.

The service manager told me they have a call in to Nissan for assistance
in finding the problem.

I am going to go there later this morning and let them know what the
problem is.

When I picked up the car last Saturday evening and drove it home I
noticed a slight electrical burning odor coming from the engine
compartment. I noticed it again on Sunday but then it went away.
Didn't smell it again.

I informed the service manager of the odor when I brought it in on
Tuesday but they sorta brushed it off saying the car was new and it was
probably just things getting hot for the first time.

Maybe, but I know the difference between a new "hot" odor and an
electrical burning odor.

Anyway, after doing some Google "research" I discovered that there is a
motor driven coolant control valve in the engine compartment, mounted on
the firewall. When the climate control calls for heat, the motor opens
the valve, allowing coolant to flow through the heater core. When no
heat is called for or air conditioning is being used, it closes.

I think the valve was stuck or jammed shut from the factory. When the
little motor tried to open it, it first overheated and eventually burnt
out which accounts for the electrical burning odor that then went away.
It also accounts for no heat, obviously.

Need to be diplomatic though. Sometimes you can **** people off by
trying to be helpful, especially when *they* are supposed to be the experts.

Dealerships don't seem to like folks who can read.

On 6/3/2017 5:59 AM, Poco Deplorevole wrote:
On Fri, 2 Jun 2017 07:09:21 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:


Car is still at the dealership (since Tuesday morning). They told me
that the heater core was airlocked and they had drained the coolant,
purged and replaced it and thought it was fixed but when they tested it,
no heat again. Repeated the purging process without success. Still no
heat.

The service manager told me they have a call in to Nissan for assistance
in finding the problem.

I am going to go there later this morning and let them know what the
problem is.

When I picked up the car last Saturday evening and drove it home I
noticed a slight electrical burning odor coming from the engine
compartment. I noticed it again on Sunday but then it went away.
Didn't smell it again.

I informed the service manager of the odor when I brought it in on
Tuesday but they sorta brushed it off saying the car was new and it was
probably just things getting hot for the first time.

Maybe, but I know the difference between a new "hot" odor and an
electrical burning odor.

Anyway, after doing some Google "research" I discovered that there is a
motor driven coolant control valve in the engine compartment, mounted on
the firewall. When the climate control calls for heat, the motor opens
the valve, allowing coolant to flow through the heater core. When no
heat is called for or air conditioning is being used, it closes.

I think the valve was stuck or jammed shut from the factory. When the
little motor tried to open it, it first overheated and eventually burnt
out which accounts for the electrical burning odor that then went away.
It also accounts for no heat, obviously.

Need to be diplomatic though. Sometimes you can **** people off by
trying to be helpful, especially when *they* are supposed to be the experts.

Dealerships don't seem to like folks who can read.



These guys are pretty good. As I previously posted, I visited them on
Thursday to see how things were going. When I mentioned the control
valve the tech acknowledged that it was the first thing he thought of
but they are obligated to follow the recommended "fix" procedures by
Nissan in order to be compensated for parts and labor by the
manufacturer for warranty repair. In order to replace the control valve
they have to get further authorization from Nissan. Makes sense but if
they were free to do what *they* think should be done I would have had
the car back on Wednesday. Now it will be sometime next week. Ok with
me. The loaner they gave me is nice and better equipped. Might even
see if I can strike a deal to keep it instead. :-)

On Sat, 3 Jun 2017 08:03:31 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:



These guys are pretty good. As I previously posted, I visited them on
Thursday to see how things were going. When I mentioned the control
valve the tech acknowledged that it was the first thing he thought of
but they are obligated to follow the recommended "fix" procedures by
Nissan in order to be compensated for parts and labor by the
manufacturer for warranty repair. In order to replace the control valve
they have to get further authorization from Nissan. Makes sense but if
they were free to do what *they* think should be done I would have had
the car back on Wednesday. Now it will be sometime next week. Ok with
me. The loaner they gave me is nice and better equipped. Might even
see if I can strike a deal to keep it instead. :-)



I ran into a similar thing with Mercury on my old 60 EFI outboard.
Unfortunately they ended up selling me some parts I did not need in
the flow chart (thermostat, impeller etc) but I saved the original
ones and reused them on subsequent maintenance so I just ended up
eating some labor. In the end I had isolated the problem down to a few
things that they could not ignore and they finally admitted it was a
problem mating the Mercury "big foot" L/U cooling water to the Yamaha
licensed power head. They knew about it and thought they had the
problem fixed ... it wasn't. My local guy came up with the fix that
was adopted for all of them until subsequent new manufacture used a
different interface. Essentially the water tube broke loose at the top
and it was done by the dealer on the first 100 hour (in 2002). That
was the last time I ever took a motor to a dealer for routine service
although it was a pretty common problem on all of the "big foot" Mercs
that used Yamaha power heads around that time. The local guy had just
gone through this on a smaller motor but he still had to convince Merc
it affected the 40-60s. By then I had the folks in corporate involved
and I was beating them up pretty bad on the boat BBs. They gave him
free rein to fix the problem and when he was successful they wanted to
know what he did.
Bottom up, field engineering ;-)

On Saturday, 3 June 2017 11:25:02 UTC-3, wrote:
On Sat, 3 Jun 2017 08:03:31 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:



These guys are pretty good. As I previously posted, I visited them on
Thursday to see how things were going. When I mentioned the control
valve the tech acknowledged that it was the first thing he thought of
but they are obligated to follow the recommended "fix" procedures by
Nissan in order to be compensated for parts and labor by the
manufacturer for warranty repair. In order to replace the control valve
they have to get further authorization from Nissan. Makes sense but if
they were free to do what *they* think should be done I would have had
the car back on Wednesday. Now it will be sometime next week. Ok with
me. The loaner they gave me is nice and better equipped. Might even
see if I can strike a deal to keep it instead. :-)



I ran into a similar thing with Mercury on my old 60 EFI outboard.
Unfortunately they ended up selling me some parts I did not need in
the flow chart (thermostat, impeller etc) but I saved the original
ones and reused them on subsequent maintenance so I just ended up
eating some labor. In the end I had isolated the problem down to a few
things that they could not ignore and they finally admitted it was a
problem mating the Mercury "big foot" L/U cooling water to the Yamaha
licensed power head. They knew about it and thought they had the
problem fixed ... it wasn't. My local guy came up with the fix that
was adopted for all of them until subsequent new manufacture used a
different interface. Essentially the water tube broke loose at the top
and it was done by the dealer on the first 100 hour (in 2002). That
was the last time I ever took a motor to a dealer for routine service
although it was a pretty common problem on all of the "big foot" Mercs
that used Yamaha power heads around that time. The local guy had just
gone through this on a smaller motor but he still had to convince Merc
it affected the 40-60s. By then I had the folks in corporate involved
and I was beating them up pretty bad on the boat BBs. They gave him
free rein to fix the problem and when he was successful they wanted to
know what he did.
Bottom up, field engineering ;-)

Wow!
I had no problem with my 'Made in China' 2012 Mercury 60 BigFoot.

On 6/3/17 12:41 PM, True North wrote:
On Saturday, 3 June 2017 11:25:02 UTC-3, wrote:
On Sat, 3 Jun 2017 08:03:31 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:



These guys are pretty good. As I previously posted, I visited them on
Thursday to see how things were going. When I mentioned the control
valve the tech acknowledged that it was the first thing he thought of
but they are obligated to follow the recommended "fix" procedures by
Nissan in order to be compensated for parts and labor by the
manufacturer for warranty repair. In order to replace the control valve
they have to get further authorization from Nissan. Makes sense but if
they were free to do what *they* think should be done I would have had
the car back on Wednesday. Now it will be sometime next week. Ok with
me. The loaner they gave me is nice and better equipped. Might even
see if I can strike a deal to keep it instead. :-)



I ran into a similar thing with Mercury on my old 60 EFI outboard.
Unfortunately they ended up selling me some parts I did not need in
the flow chart (thermostat, impeller etc) but I saved the original
ones and reused them on subsequent maintenance so I just ended up
eating some labor. In the end I had isolated the problem down to a few
things that they could not ignore and they finally admitted it was a
problem mating the Mercury "big foot" L/U cooling water to the Yamaha
licensed power head. They knew about it and thought they had the
problem fixed ... it wasn't. My local guy came up with the fix that
was adopted for all of them until subsequent new manufacture used a
different interface. Essentially the water tube broke loose at the top
and it was done by the dealer on the first 100 hour (in 2002). That
was the last time I ever took a motor to a dealer for routine service
although it was a pretty common problem on all of the "big foot" Mercs
that used Yamaha power heads around that time. The local guy had just
gone through this on a smaller motor but he still had to convince Merc
it affected the 40-60s. By then I had the folks in corporate involved
and I was beating them up pretty bad on the boat BBs. They gave him
free rein to fix the problem and when he was successful they wanted to
know what he did.
Bottom up, field engineering ;-)

Wow!
I had no problem with my 'Made in China' 2012 Mercury 60 BigFoot.



Greg had the 1912 Evinrude, signed by Ole Evinrude himself and with
210,000 hours on it.

On Sat, 3 Jun 2017 09:41:35 -0700 (PDT), True North
wrote:

On Saturday, 3 June 2017 11:25:02 UTC-3, wrote:
On Sat, 3 Jun 2017 08:03:31 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:



These guys are pretty good. As I previously posted, I visited them on
Thursday to see how things were going. When I mentioned the control
valve the tech acknowledged that it was the first thing he thought of
but they are obligated to follow the recommended "fix" procedures by
Nissan in order to be compensated for parts and labor by the
manufacturer for warranty repair. In order to replace the control valve
they have to get further authorization from Nissan. Makes sense but if
they were free to do what *they* think should be done I would have had
the car back on Wednesday. Now it will be sometime next week. Ok with
me. The loaner they gave me is nice and better equipped. Might even
see if I can strike a deal to keep it instead. :-)



I ran into a similar thing with Mercury on my old 60 EFI outboard.
Unfortunately they ended up selling me some parts I did not need in
the flow chart (thermostat, impeller etc) but I saved the original
ones and reused them on subsequent maintenance so I just ended up
eating some labor. In the end I had isolated the problem down to a few
things that they could not ignore and they finally admitted it was a
problem mating the Mercury "big foot" L/U cooling water to the Yamaha
licensed power head. They knew about it and thought they had the
problem fixed ... it wasn't. My local guy came up with the fix that
was adopted for all of them until subsequent new manufacture used a
different interface. Essentially the water tube broke loose at the top
and it was done by the dealer on the first 100 hour (in 2002). That
was the last time I ever took a motor to a dealer for routine service
although it was a pretty common problem on all of the "big foot" Mercs
that used Yamaha power heads around that time. The local guy had just
gone through this on a smaller motor but he still had to convince Merc
it affected the 40-60s. By then I had the folks in corporate involved
and I was beating them up pretty bad on the boat BBs. They gave him
free rein to fix the problem and when he was successful they wanted to
know what he did.
Bottom up, field engineering ;-)

Wow!
I had no problem with my 'Made in China' 2012 Mercury 60 BigFoot.

I am sure after 10 years, they shook out all of the bugs. Honestly,
that was the only real design defect I had in 3000 hours. Other than
that I just had one bad HP fuel pump and two bad IAC valves. The pump
caused the engine to start leaning out around 3000 RPM with low rail
pressure on the injector rail. The IAC valve keeps it from idling, it
is OK once the throttle opens a bit. On those motors, the throttle is
closed on idle and the air all comes from the IAC, controlled by the
computer. It is a $40 part that is real easy to change (one hose, one
connector and one screw, all out in the open).
That is what makes the "paca paca" sound when it is idling.
The HP pump is a little harder but not much. You need to open up the
vapor separator. You might be able to do it without removing the VST
but I just took it off (3 screws). Easy job in the driveway.

On 6/2/2017 8:44 AM, justan wrote:
"Mr. Luddite" Wrote in message:

Car is still at the dealership (since Tuesday morning). They told me
that the heater core was airlocked and they had drained the coolant,
purged and replaced it and thought it was fixed but when they tested it,
no heat again. Repeated the purging process without success. Still no
heat.

The service manager told me they have a call in to Nissan for assistance
in finding the problem.

I am going to go there later this morning and let them know what the
problem is.

When I picked up the car last Saturday evening and drove it home I
noticed a slight electrical burning odor coming from the engine
compartment. I noticed it again on Sunday but then it went away.
Didn't smell it again.

I informed the service manager of the odor when I brought it in on
Tuesday but they sorta brushed it off saying the car was new and it was
probably just things getting hot for the first time.

Maybe, but I know the difference between a new "hot" odor and an
electrical burning odor.

Anyway, after doing some Google "research" I discovered that there is a
motor driven coolant control valve in the engine compartment, mounted on
the firewall. When the climate control calls for heat, the motor opens
the valve, allowing coolant to flow through the heater core. When no
heat is called for or air conditioning is being used, it closes.

I think the valve was stuck or jammed shut from the factory. When the
little motor tried to open it, it first overheated and eventually burnt
out which accounts for the electrical burning odor that then went away.
It also accounts for no heat, obviously.

Need to be diplomatic though. Sometimes you can **** people off by
trying to be helpful, especially when *they* are supposed to be the experts.


Airlock in the heater core? What kind of dummy do they think you are?



Just came back from talking to the service people at the dealership and
to the tech who is working on the car. He acknowledged that an air lock
in a brand new car would be unusual but they just follow the recommended
"fix" in the Nissan service manuals. They've tried three times now and,
when I told him my theory, he agreed and said they'd replace the control
valve next.

He said that the 2017 versions a little different than past models and
this is the first time they've encountered this problem.

He also looked at the note that the counter guy had written. He put,
"customer states he smelled a burning odor". I explained to him that
it wasn't a normal "hot" odor of a new car with new pipes, etc. I said
it was the distinctive electrical odor of something like a locked motor
burning up it's windings. Saw the light bulb go on in his head.