Hi,
A few years ago, I read in the protest appeals about the timing
between hailing protest and displaying the red flag. The numbers 15 to
20 seconds stick in my mind. I can no longer find the appeals case to
verify this. Can anyone give me a referance to the appeals number. I
am currently involved in a protest in which it took slightly over a
minute to display the flag.

Thanks

(zilatu) wrote:
A few years ago, I read in the protest appeals about the timing
between hailing protest and displaying the red flag. The numbers 15 to
20 seconds stick in my mind. I can no longer find the appeals case to
verify this. Can anyone give me a referance to the appeals number. I
am currently involved in a protest in which it took slightly over a
minute to display the flag.

Google is a wonderful tool. A search for "appeal protest flag" found
the following in less time than it took to type this:

http://www.48north.com/aug2001/letters.htm

The big question in deciding if the protest is valid will be *why* did
it take a minute to fly the flag?

If the minute was spent ensuring the safety of the boat and crew
(getting sails down, getting people back on board, inspecting for
damage, assisting injured crew, etc), then there should be no question
that it's valid.

If the minute was spent having somebody hunt down below to find the flag
stashed away in a locker, then there should be no question that it's
invalid.

The longer the delay in displaying the flag, the tougher the job becomes
to convince a committee that the flag was flown as soon as reasonably
possible. A minute is a pretty long time. The only reasons I can think
of which would permit a delay that long all involve ensuring safety of
crew and vessel.

Your second guess was the right one, sending someone below to look for
the flag. Being the Corinthian racer that I like to think that I am, I
feel I would owe a 720 if I committed the foul. The issue will come
down to whether or not the protesting boat violated rule 16.2,
sometimes called "Hunting", because we filed and won a protest against
him a few weeks ago that involved safety due to a flagrant violation.
I still am interested in the appeals number so that I can cite it as a
reference.
Thanks

"zilatu" wrote in message
om...
Your second guess was the right one, sending someone below to look for
the flag. Being the Corinthian racer that I like to think that I am, I
feel I would owe a 720 if I committed the foul. The issue will come
down to whether or not the protesting boat violated rule 16.2,
sometimes called "Hunting", because we filed and won a protest against
him a few weeks ago that involved safety due to a flagrant violation.
I still am interested in the appeals number so that I can cite it as a
reference.
Thanks

Chairing various protest committees, this 'issue' sometimes appears. Within
a protest hearing, there are two phases. The first being validation of the
protest itself (the technical aspect) and that is where the protest flag
concern would occur. Phase two would be the hearing of evidence.

In terms of how long it took before a hail of "Protest" and the flag was
flown becomes a concern relates to whether the protested boat, or other
boats, are visually made aware of a protest situation. For example, if
there was delay in getting the flag up and the intended protested boat say
tacks away and is 'gone' then it might be construed that the protested boat
never had a fair opportunity to become aware of the protest, determine if
they feel they were in the wrong, and then take the necessary actions to
rectify the situation (exonerate itself).

Also, delaying flying the protest flag and then dowm the course it goes up
does draw the attention of other boats that something hapened. If it
happens reasonable clsoe to when the alleged rulle infraction occured,
other boats can then clarify whether it was them, or they can make mental
note of what they saw for possible committee witness action. More than a
few times We and others have asked a protesting boat who they were
protesting because it was not clear to us when and what happened -- you just
never know. All the protesting boat is oblidged to do is hail protest and
fly the flag. The onous is not on them to ensure that the protested boat
hears them. But good wisdom suggests they should really try.

Earliest opportunity also has to take into account, as you stated, your boat
safety and the safety of any other boats around you, as well as the action
of your getting the flag (crew member pulled from a needed position) not
causing you to break a rule.

A few seasons back, on starb. tack, a boat below us and ahead, tacked and
came right back at us on a dead ahead collision course. We hailed starboard
a few times, had maybe 6 to 9 seconds before a head on (with large boats), I
called for an emergency hard tack to starboard to avoid the collision, which
knocked all of us down (six crew) -- I was up on the starboard aft of the
mast trying to keep an eye on the offending boat (we were going to push them
either to tack and dip us or go beyond their lay line, get into grief with
another class coming down on them = tactics). Well, by time I go out from
underneath the portion of the jib that came across and hammered me, all of
us quickly made sure we were okay, trimmed to get the boat moving again,
hailed protest somewhere in there, and then went unfurled the protest flag
(it was tied and wrapped on the back stay), well more than a minute
transpired. Once we protested and theys aw the red flag, they did their
penalty turns and were gone. We were still trying to get back to coruse and
up to speed and actually the offending boat gained substantial course
advantage through all of that.

Afterwards, in the club, the skipper of the offending boat sail to me that
our helm paniced and that he was no problem to us. I kept my temper and
said, how the hell would you have even known, you had sails out obscuring
us, no one on watch, and never moved an inch from collision. He repleid
that there was plenty of time -- I replied back, and your boat speed was (it
was over 6 knots as was ours), so a closing speed of 12 knots, which menat
that given our boat lengths we were covering our own boat length to them in
1.5 seconds, and we were perhaps 50 feet from collision when I called
emergency tack = which meant maybe 3 to 6 seconds before bang. He never
questioned that one again.

Garry McGonigal wrote:
Once we protested and theys aw the red flag, they did their penalty
turns and were gone. We were still trying to get back to coruse and
up to speed and actually the offending boat gained substantial
course advantage through all of that.

Sounds like they were in violation of:

44.1 Taking a Penalty

A boat that may have broken a rule of Part 2 while racing may take a
penalty at the time of the incident. Her penalty shall be a 720 Turns
Penalty unless the sailing instructions specify the use of the Scoring
Penalty or some other penalty. However, if she caused serious damage
or gained a significant advantage in the race or series by her breach
she shall retire.

If the other boat gained "substantial course advantage", as you put
it, they should have retired. Doing a 720 is not enough.

Roy Smith wrote:

Garry McGonigal wrote:
Once we protested and theys aw the red flag, they did their penalty
turns and were gone. We were still trying to get back to coruse and
up to speed and actually the offending boat gained substantial
course advantage through all of that.

Sounds like they were in violation of:

44.1 Taking a Penalty

A boat that may have broken a rule of Part 2 while racing may take a
penalty at the time of the incident. Her penalty shall be a 720 Turns
Penalty unless the sailing instructions specify the use of the Scoring
Penalty or some other penalty. However, if she caused serious damage
or gained a significant advantage in the race or series by her breach
she shall retire.

If the other boat gained "substantial course advantage", as you put
it, they should have retired. Doing a 720 is not enough.

Be aware that there is a difference between the fouled boat suffering
a significant disadvantage and the fouling boat gaining a significant
advantage.

Rarely does a boat gain "a significant advantage" when she gains one
place in a regatta (as presumably happened in the cited example).
This is especially true if the incident happens somewhere other than
near the finishing line. When the incident happens earlier in the race
who can possibly know what part the inciident played in the final
result of the race (i.e., whether a significant advantage was gained)?

On the other hand, a fouled boat might often suffer a significant
disadvantage if they become flustered by the incident. The last
sentence of rule 44.1 is intended to cover significant advantage, not
significant disadvantage.

Consider a situation in which a clear astern boat improperly forces
their way inside a group of 6 boats at a mark. There the fouling boat
picks up 6 places - and almost certainly gains a significant
advantage. Coincidentally, none of the other boats suffers a
significant disadvantage since each only loses one place.

Art Engel
e-mail: artengel123 (at) earthlink.net
Web: http://www.racingrules.org

Roy Smith wrote:

...
The longer the delay in displaying the flag, the tougher the job becomes
to convince a committee that the flag was flown as soon as reasonably
possible. A minute is a pretty long time. The only reasons I can think
of which would permit a delay that long all involve ensuring safety of
crew and vessel.

I've always thought this was just a cop-out. Some of the protest committees
I've been on have siezed on this as a reason to avoid disqualifying an
offender who deserved it. I've also seen protest committees accept the
testimony of a racer who "didn't see a protest flag or hear a hail" when a
dozen or more sailors, all much further away, saw & heard it.

If a racer is serious enough to protest another, then they should be
prepared to show a flag and should learn the rules well enough to lodge a
protest properly. But for beer can racing, most offenses are minor & are
reasonably ignored, whereas a serious one merits a closer look than
"Dismissed, did not fly a flag."

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

DSK wrote:
I've always thought this was just a cop-out. Some of the protest committees
I've been on have siezed on this as a reason to avoid disqualifying an
offender who deserved it.

My personal opinion is that as long as the prostestee knows he's being
protested, the protest should be valid. The idea of the flag is to
transmit information -- it tells the protestee that he's being
protested, and gives him a chance to do a 720 to exonerate himself. As
long as the information gets transmitted, the actual means used to
transmit it should be unimportant.

So, if I'm 6 feet away from the other skipper, and we have the following
conversation:

"Up, up, up!"

"You can't take me up that quickly!"

"Yes I can. Come on, stay up, stay up! OK, that's it, PROTEST!"

"Protest!? What'ya mean protest? There no way I fouled you".

It's pretty damn clear that the other guy knows he's being protested,
and he's got all the notice he needs to decide if he wants to play it
safe and do a 720 or take a chance and duke it out in the protest room
later.

But, that's not the way the rules read. The rules say I gotta put up
some stupid red piece of cloth. One of the dumber rules in the book,
IMHO.

Not every hail or claim is valid or true. Sometimes the alleged foul is
really not a foul. The current structure of protests and protest
hearings is a chance for the alleged wrong-doer to present a reasonable
defense. Some fleets produce lots of protests and protest hearings and
some fleets don't produce any protest hearings.
The second fleet is where I prefer to sail. Most of my fleet-mates know
the rules and don't foul other boats because circles are slow and
protest hearings waste drinking time. Most of the circles in my fleet
are due to misjudging mark roundings. But there are times when a
properly run protest hearing is necessary. If there is damage to one or
more boats, that protest hearing may be necessary for a proper claim to
be presented to an insurance company.

The red flag is the only rational way to give the alleged wrong-doing
boat, a chance to exonerate itself with circles, alternative penalty,
or attendance at a protest hearing. Boats that "deserve" DSQ will
usually repeat the offenses. Your fleet should have multiple chances at
the miscreants over a season.

Roy Smith wrote:
DSK wrote:

I've always thought this was just a cop-out. Some of the protest committees
I've been on have siezed on this as a reason to avoid disqualifying an
offender who deserved it.


My personal opinion is that as long as the prostestee knows he's being
protested, the protest should be valid. The idea of the flag is to
transmit information -- it tells the protestee that he's being
protested, and gives him a chance to do a 720 to exonerate himself. As
long as the information gets transmitted, the actual means used to
transmit it should be unimportant.

So, if I'm 6 feet away from the other skipper, and we have the following
conversation:

"Up, up, up!"

"You can't take me up that quickly!"

"Yes I can. Come on, stay up, stay up! OK, that's it, PROTEST!"

"Protest!? What'ya mean protest? There no way I fouled you".

It's pretty damn clear that the other guy knows he's being protested,
and he's got all the notice he needs to decide if he wants to play it
safe and do a 720 or take a chance and duke it out in the protest room
later.

But, that's not the way the rules read. The rules say I gotta put up
some stupid red piece of cloth. One of the dumber rules in the book,
IMHO.

For what little it's worth, I sat on a hearing with an international judge
this weekend. On the issue of timeliness of a flag, his opinion was that if
you have to go below to get it, it's too long.


"DSK" wrote in message
...

Roy Smith wrote:

...
The longer the delay in displaying the flag, the tougher the job becomes
to convince a committee that the flag was flown as soon as reasonably
possible. A minute is a pretty long time. The only reasons I can think
of which would permit a delay that long all involve ensuring safety of
crew and vessel.

I've always thought this was just a cop-out. Some of the protest
committees
I've been on have siezed on this as a reason to avoid disqualifying an
offender who deserved it. I've also seen protest committees accept the
testimony of a racer who "didn't see a protest flag or hear a hail" when a
dozen or more sailors, all much further away, saw & heard it.

If a racer is serious enough to protest another, then they should be
prepared to show a flag and should learn the rules well enough to lodge a
protest properly. But for beer can racing, most offenses are minor & are
reasonably ignored, whereas a serious one merits a closer look than
"Dismissed, did not fly a flag."

Fresh Breezes- Doug King