Protest flag
 

For what little it's worth, I sat on a hearing with an international judge
this weekend. On the issue of timeliness of a flag, his opinion was that if
you have to go below to get it, it's too long.


"DSK" wrote in message
...

Roy Smith wrote:

...
The longer the delay in displaying the flag, the tougher the job becomes
to convince a committee that the flag was flown as soon as reasonably
possible. A minute is a pretty long time. The only reasons I can think
of which would permit a delay that long all involve ensuring safety of
crew and vessel.

I've always thought this was just a cop-out. Some of the protest
committees
I've been on have siezed on this as a reason to avoid disqualifying an
offender who deserved it. I've also seen protest committees accept the
testimony of a racer who "didn't see a protest flag or hear a hail" when a
dozen or more sailors, all much further away, saw & heard it.

If a racer is serious enough to protest another, then they should be
prepared to show a flag and should learn the rules well enough to lodge a
protest properly. But for beer can racing, most offenses are minor & are
reasonably ignored, whereas a serious one merits a closer look than
"Dismissed, did not fly a flag."

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Protest flag
 

Fwiw, keeping a protest flag on deck might be considered poor seamanship. It
could foul a line, get torn, or be lost overboard. Stuffing it in a vent slows
airflow below - is this acting in a "seamanlike" manner? A flag on deck would
certainly get more wear & tear. Does this same judge consider a torn or worn
flag to be improper as well? (If it's ripped, its doesn't fit the description
of code flag B, does it?) Would having it in the helmsman's pocket take too
long to get as well? What about the mastman's pocket? Only if he's stationed
at the starboard shrouds? Doesnt' seem seamanlike to station a man at the
starboard shrouds when you're on port tack, but, hey, let's be ready to fly
that flag! (Though the rules no longer require flying it from a particular
side, tradition calls for flying it from the starboard.) In my rulebook, it
calls for a protest flag to be conspicuously displayed "at the first reasonable
opportunity..." It does not appear that the international judge is being
reasonable. Perhaps something was lost in the translation.

Protest flag
 

Yea, well, he's Australian... two cultures separated by a common language?

"PSK125" wrote in message
...
Fwiw, keeping a protest flag on deck might be considered poor seamanship.
It
could foul a line, get torn, or be lost overboard. Stuffing it in a vent
slows
airflow below - is this acting in a "seamanlike" manner? A flag on deck
would
certainly get more wear & tear. Does this same judge consider a torn or
worn
flag to be improper as well? (If it's ripped, its doesn't fit the
description
of code flag B, does it?) Would having it in the helmsman's pocket take
too
long to get as well? What about the mastman's pocket? Only if he's
stationed
at the starboard shrouds? Doesnt' seem seamanlike to station a man at the
starboard shrouds when you're on port tack, but, hey, let's be ready to
fly
that flag! (Though the rules no longer require flying it from a
particular
side, tradition calls for flying it from the starboard.) In my
rulebook, it
calls for a protest flag to be conspicuously displayed "at the first
reasonable
opportunity..." It does not appear that the international judge is being
reasonable. Perhaps something was lost in the translation.

Protest flag
 

Within one of the 'cases' and cases should be used as guidelines, not
gospel, the decision was, the protestor is obligated to hail 'protest' as
per the rules, and fly the swallow tail code B flag, as per rules. There is
not obligation that his or her hail of protest be heard by the protestee.

In terms of where one should store the signal flag, that is up to the
skipper. I do know of some active racers who have the protest flag attached
to their backstay, rolled, and a quick release cord sets it flying --
outcome of a competitive association he races in. Mind you, he and I have
'tangled' a few times, he asked for room, and I responded nope, not
entitled. He hailed protest, and I counter with a protest hail and stated
both on a rule violation and poor sportsmanship. Enough was enough, time to
call his bluff and put an end to his trying to intimidate everyone on the
planet. Games!

But within a hearing, one has to use common sense in these matters and
determine what was reasonable time. You can imagine what it is like for
most starts, and with some screaming and hollering going on, one wonders
who, what, where, us.... It seems to me that it used to be with the smaller
boats that the start line was very aggressive. Now, it seems with the
larger, faster boats, it gets very tight and rough in the start areas. I
wonder why? What has changed?

Protest flag
 

We keep our protest flag on our backstay, its velcroed on and is rolled
up and held closed with a piece of duct tape with a tab for a quick
display. Just because its there doesn't mean we are agressive about
protesting people. In fact we use it so infrequently that I went to display
it the
other day and it refused to unroll. Time to get a new one I guess :-) Its
not
there for the intimidation factor, its there to be used if needed. We don't
yell protest at anyone unless we mean to follow through but if we do protest
someone we don't want it disallowed because we didn't fly the flag
fast enough.

"Art Engel" wrote in message
...
Dennis Bartley wrote:

For what little it's worth, I sat on a hearing with an international
judge
this weekend. On the issue of timeliness of a flag, his opinion was that
if
you have to go below to get it, it's too long.

The reason to talk about this stuff is to learn and improve your
sailing - even the unpopular protest part of it.

If you have to go below to LOOK for your protest flag I doubt any
judge will think that is "first reasonable oppurtunity". It is gear
like halyards and sheets and sails and should be readily available. On
the other hand, if you store it in the chart table and need to duck
below for a couple of seconds to grab it then I think most judges
would consider it timely BUT be aware that some judges will think you
are probably pushing the limit. Serious racers keep it available on
deck.

It is definitely NOT considered unsportsmanlike to have the protest
flag on deck ready to go. Sportsmanship encourages protests to resolve
uncertainties. It is questionable whether a boat could ever be DSQed
for NOT protesting but it certainly is a theoretical possibility.
Protesting is NOT bad. My ideal fleet is one where boats protest when
appropriate, boats take penalties most of the time and so the protests
that actually go to the room are uncommon but not rare.

Art Engel
e-mail: artengel123 (at) earthlink.net
Web: http://www.racingrules.org

Protest flag
 

"J. Balk" wrote in message

We keep our protest flag on our backstay, its velcroed on and is
rolled up and held closed with a piece of duct tape with a tab for a
quick display.

It used to be a great insult to say of a skipper that he 'started with
his protest flag set in stops'.

Perhaps the aggressive dinghy fleets where keeping it taped to the
shroud was the most convenient place have changed things.

Although I well remember a very successful dinghy skipper who always
always appeared quite effiminate wearing a scarlet cravat while sailing
.... until you fouled him and saw him whip it off and hang it in the
shroud g.

John