Protest flag
 

Hi,
A few years ago, I read in the protest appeals about the timing
between hailing protest and displaying the red flag. The numbers 15 to
20 seconds stick in my mind. I can no longer find the appeals case to
verify this. Can anyone give me a referance to the appeals number. I
am currently involved in a protest in which it took slightly over a
minute to display the flag.

Thanks

Protest flag
 

(zilatu) wrote:
A few years ago, I read in the protest appeals about the timing
between hailing protest and displaying the red flag. The numbers 15 to
20 seconds stick in my mind. I can no longer find the appeals case to
verify this. Can anyone give me a referance to the appeals number. I
am currently involved in a protest in which it took slightly over a
minute to display the flag.

Google is a wonderful tool. A search for "appeal protest flag" found
the following in less time than it took to type this:

http://www.48north.com/aug2001/letters.htm

The big question in deciding if the protest is valid will be *why* did
it take a minute to fly the flag?

If the minute was spent ensuring the safety of the boat and crew
(getting sails down, getting people back on board, inspecting for
damage, assisting injured crew, etc), then there should be no question
that it's valid.

If the minute was spent having somebody hunt down below to find the flag
stashed away in a locker, then there should be no question that it's
invalid.

The longer the delay in displaying the flag, the tougher the job becomes
to convince a committee that the flag was flown as soon as reasonably
possible. A minute is a pretty long time. The only reasons I can think
of which would permit a delay that long all involve ensuring safety of
crew and vessel.

Protest flag
 

Your second guess was the right one, sending someone below to look for
the flag. Being the Corinthian racer that I like to think that I am, I
feel I would owe a 720 if I committed the foul. The issue will come
down to whether or not the protesting boat violated rule 16.2,
sometimes called "Hunting", because we filed and won a protest against
him a few weeks ago that involved safety due to a flagrant violation.
I still am interested in the appeals number so that I can cite it as a
reference.
Thanks

Protest flag
 

"zilatu" wrote in message
om...
Your second guess was the right one, sending someone below to look for
the flag. Being the Corinthian racer that I like to think that I am, I
feel I would owe a 720 if I committed the foul. The issue will come
down to whether or not the protesting boat violated rule 16.2,
sometimes called "Hunting", because we filed and won a protest against
him a few weeks ago that involved safety due to a flagrant violation.
I still am interested in the appeals number so that I can cite it as a
reference.
Thanks

Chairing various protest committees, this 'issue' sometimes appears. Within
a protest hearing, there are two phases. The first being validation of the
protest itself (the technical aspect) and that is where the protest flag
concern would occur. Phase two would be the hearing of evidence.

In terms of how long it took before a hail of "Protest" and the flag was
flown becomes a concern relates to whether the protested boat, or other
boats, are visually made aware of a protest situation. For example, if
there was delay in getting the flag up and the intended protested boat say
tacks away and is 'gone' then it might be construed that the protested boat
never had a fair opportunity to become aware of the protest, determine if
they feel they were in the wrong, and then take the necessary actions to
rectify the situation (exonerate itself).

Also, delaying flying the protest flag and then dowm the course it goes up
does draw the attention of other boats that something hapened. If it
happens reasonable clsoe to when the alleged rulle infraction occured,
other boats can then clarify whether it was them, or they can make mental
note of what they saw for possible committee witness action. More than a
few times We and others have asked a protesting boat who they were
protesting because it was not clear to us when and what happened -- you just
never know. All the protesting boat is oblidged to do is hail protest and
fly the flag. The onous is not on them to ensure that the protested boat
hears them. But good wisdom suggests they should really try.

Earliest opportunity also has to take into account, as you stated, your boat
safety and the safety of any other boats around you, as well as the action
of your getting the flag (crew member pulled from a needed position) not
causing you to break a rule.

A few seasons back, on starb. tack, a boat below us and ahead, tacked and
came right back at us on a dead ahead collision course. We hailed starboard
a few times, had maybe 6 to 9 seconds before a head on (with large boats), I
called for an emergency hard tack to starboard to avoid the collision, which
knocked all of us down (six crew) -- I was up on the starboard aft of the
mast trying to keep an eye on the offending boat (we were going to push them
either to tack and dip us or go beyond their lay line, get into grief with
another class coming down on them = tactics). Well, by time I go out from
underneath the portion of the jib that came across and hammered me, all of
us quickly made sure we were okay, trimmed to get the boat moving again,
hailed protest somewhere in there, and then went unfurled the protest flag
(it was tied and wrapped on the back stay), well more than a minute
transpired. Once we protested and theys aw the red flag, they did their
penalty turns and were gone. We were still trying to get back to coruse and
up to speed and actually the offending boat gained substantial course
advantage through all of that.

Afterwards, in the club, the skipper of the offending boat sail to me that
our helm paniced and that he was no problem to us. I kept my temper and
said, how the hell would you have even known, you had sails out obscuring
us, no one on watch, and never moved an inch from collision. He repleid
that there was plenty of time -- I replied back, and your boat speed was (it
was over 6 knots as was ours), so a closing speed of 12 knots, which menat
that given our boat lengths we were covering our own boat length to them in
1.5 seconds, and we were perhaps 50 feet from collision when I called
emergency tack = which meant maybe 3 to 6 seconds before bang. He never
questioned that one again.

Protest flag
 

Garry McGonigal wrote:
Once we protested and theys aw the red flag, they did their penalty
turns and were gone. We were still trying to get back to coruse and
up to speed and actually the offending boat gained substantial
course advantage through all of that.

Sounds like they were in violation of:

44.1 Taking a Penalty

A boat that may have broken a rule of Part 2 while racing may take a
penalty at the time of the incident. Her penalty shall be a 720 Turns
Penalty unless the sailing instructions specify the use of the Scoring
Penalty or some other penalty. However, if she caused serious damage
or gained a significant advantage in the race or series by her breach
she shall retire.

If the other boat gained "substantial course advantage", as you put
it, they should have retired. Doing a 720 is not enough.

Protest flag
 

Roy Smith wrote:

Garry McGonigal wrote:
Once we protested and theys aw the red flag, they did their penalty
turns and were gone. We were still trying to get back to coruse and
up to speed and actually the offending boat gained substantial
course advantage through all of that.

Sounds like they were in violation of:

44.1 Taking a Penalty

A boat that may have broken a rule of Part 2 while racing may take a
penalty at the time of the incident. Her penalty shall be a 720 Turns
Penalty unless the sailing instructions specify the use of the Scoring
Penalty or some other penalty. However, if she caused serious damage
or gained a significant advantage in the race or series by her breach
she shall retire.

If the other boat gained "substantial course advantage", as you put
it, they should have retired. Doing a 720 is not enough.

Be aware that there is a difference between the fouled boat suffering
a significant disadvantage and the fouling boat gaining a significant
advantage.

Rarely does a boat gain "a significant advantage" when she gains one
place in a regatta (as presumably happened in the cited example).
This is especially true if the incident happens somewhere other than
near the finishing line. When the incident happens earlier in the race
who can possibly know what part the inciident played in the final
result of the race (i.e., whether a significant advantage was gained)?

On the other hand, a fouled boat might often suffer a significant
disadvantage if they become flustered by the incident. The last
sentence of rule 44.1 is intended to cover significant advantage, not
significant disadvantage.

Consider a situation in which a clear astern boat improperly forces
their way inside a group of 6 boats at a mark. There the fouling boat
picks up 6 places - and almost certainly gains a significant
advantage. Coincidentally, none of the other boats suffers a
significant disadvantage since each only loses one place.

Art Engel
e-mail: artengel123 (at) earthlink.net
Web: http://www.racingrules.org

Protest flag
 

Unfortunately, I don't remember the appeals number. That appeal was done
under the older rules, where the wording was diffirent. I believed it used
to say the flag had to be up "immediately", and now it says "at the first
reasonable opportunity". Under the old rule, "immediately" used to be
interrpreted by juries to be within 15 seconds, unless there were some
mitigating circumstances (injury, damage). The newer rule allows juries to
be a bit more flexible.


"zilatu" wrote in message
om...
Hi,
A few years ago, I read in the protest appeals about the timing
between hailing protest and displaying the red flag. The numbers 15 to
20 seconds stick in my mind. I can no longer find the appeals case to
verify this. Can anyone give me a referance to the appeals number. I
am currently involved in a protest in which it took slightly over a
minute to display the flag.

Thanks

Protest flag
 

Roy Smith wrote:

...
The longer the delay in displaying the flag, the tougher the job becomes
to convince a committee that the flag was flown as soon as reasonably
possible. A minute is a pretty long time. The only reasons I can think
of which would permit a delay that long all involve ensuring safety of
crew and vessel.

I've always thought this was just a cop-out. Some of the protest committees
I've been on have siezed on this as a reason to avoid disqualifying an
offender who deserved it. I've also seen protest committees accept the
testimony of a racer who "didn't see a protest flag or hear a hail" when a
dozen or more sailors, all much further away, saw & heard it.

If a racer is serious enough to protest another, then they should be
prepared to show a flag and should learn the rules well enough to lodge a
protest properly. But for beer can racing, most offenses are minor & are
reasonably ignored, whereas a serious one merits a closer look than
"Dismissed, did not fly a flag."

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Protest flag
 

DSK wrote:
I've always thought this was just a cop-out. Some of the protest committees
I've been on have siezed on this as a reason to avoid disqualifying an
offender who deserved it.

My personal opinion is that as long as the prostestee knows he's being
protested, the protest should be valid. The idea of the flag is to
transmit information -- it tells the protestee that he's being
protested, and gives him a chance to do a 720 to exonerate himself. As
long as the information gets transmitted, the actual means used to
transmit it should be unimportant.

So, if I'm 6 feet away from the other skipper, and we have the following
conversation:

"Up, up, up!"

"You can't take me up that quickly!"

"Yes I can. Come on, stay up, stay up! OK, that's it, PROTEST!"

"Protest!? What'ya mean protest? There no way I fouled you".

It's pretty damn clear that the other guy knows he's being protested,
and he's got all the notice he needs to decide if he wants to play it
safe and do a 720 or take a chance and duke it out in the protest room
later.

But, that's not the way the rules read. The rules say I gotta put up
some stupid red piece of cloth. One of the dumber rules in the book,
IMHO.

Protest flag
 

Not every hail or claim is valid or true. Sometimes the alleged foul is
really not a foul. The current structure of protests and protest
hearings is a chance for the alleged wrong-doer to present a reasonable
defense. Some fleets produce lots of protests and protest hearings and
some fleets don't produce any protest hearings.
The second fleet is where I prefer to sail. Most of my fleet-mates know
the rules and don't foul other boats because circles are slow and
protest hearings waste drinking time. Most of the circles in my fleet
are due to misjudging mark roundings. But there are times when a
properly run protest hearing is necessary. If there is damage to one or
more boats, that protest hearing may be necessary for a proper claim to
be presented to an insurance company.

The red flag is the only rational way to give the alleged wrong-doing
boat, a chance to exonerate itself with circles, alternative penalty,
or attendance at a protest hearing. Boats that "deserve" DSQ will
usually repeat the offenses. Your fleet should have multiple chances at
the miscreants over a season.

Roy Smith wrote:
DSK wrote:

I've always thought this was just a cop-out. Some of the protest committees
I've been on have siezed on this as a reason to avoid disqualifying an
offender who deserved it.


My personal opinion is that as long as the prostestee knows he's being
protested, the protest should be valid. The idea of the flag is to
transmit information -- it tells the protestee that he's being
protested, and gives him a chance to do a 720 to exonerate himself. As
long as the information gets transmitted, the actual means used to
transmit it should be unimportant.

So, if I'm 6 feet away from the other skipper, and we have the following
conversation:

"Up, up, up!"

"You can't take me up that quickly!"

"Yes I can. Come on, stay up, stay up! OK, that's it, PROTEST!"

"Protest!? What'ya mean protest? There no way I fouled you".

It's pretty damn clear that the other guy knows he's being protested,
and he's got all the notice he needs to decide if he wants to play it
safe and do a 720 or take a chance and duke it out in the protest room
later.

But, that's not the way the rules read. The rules say I gotta put up
some stupid red piece of cloth. One of the dumber rules in the book,
IMHO.

Protest flag
 

For what little it's worth, I sat on a hearing with an international judge
this weekend. On the issue of timeliness of a flag, his opinion was that if
you have to go below to get it, it's too long.


"DSK" wrote in message
...

Roy Smith wrote:

...
The longer the delay in displaying the flag, the tougher the job becomes
to convince a committee that the flag was flown as soon as reasonably
possible. A minute is a pretty long time. The only reasons I can think
of which would permit a delay that long all involve ensuring safety of
crew and vessel.

I've always thought this was just a cop-out. Some of the protest
committees
I've been on have siezed on this as a reason to avoid disqualifying an
offender who deserved it. I've also seen protest committees accept the
testimony of a racer who "didn't see a protest flag or hear a hail" when a
dozen or more sailors, all much further away, saw & heard it.

If a racer is serious enough to protest another, then they should be
prepared to show a flag and should learn the rules well enough to lodge a
protest properly. But for beer can racing, most offenses are minor & are
reasonably ignored, whereas a serious one merits a closer look than
"Dismissed, did not fly a flag."

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Protest flag
 

Fwiw, keeping a protest flag on deck might be considered poor seamanship. It
could foul a line, get torn, or be lost overboard. Stuffing it in a vent slows
airflow below - is this acting in a "seamanlike" manner? A flag on deck would
certainly get more wear & tear. Does this same judge consider a torn or worn
flag to be improper as well? (If it's ripped, its doesn't fit the description
of code flag B, does it?) Would having it in the helmsman's pocket take too
long to get as well? What about the mastman's pocket? Only if he's stationed
at the starboard shrouds? Doesnt' seem seamanlike to station a man at the
starboard shrouds when you're on port tack, but, hey, let's be ready to fly
that flag! (Though the rules no longer require flying it from a particular
side, tradition calls for flying it from the starboard.) In my rulebook, it
calls for a protest flag to be conspicuously displayed "at the first reasonable
opportunity..." It does not appear that the international judge is being
reasonable. Perhaps something was lost in the translation.

Protest flag
 

Yea, well, he's Australian... two cultures separated by a common language?

"PSK125" wrote in message
...
Fwiw, keeping a protest flag on deck might be considered poor seamanship.
It
could foul a line, get torn, or be lost overboard. Stuffing it in a vent
slows
airflow below - is this acting in a "seamanlike" manner? A flag on deck
would
certainly get more wear & tear. Does this same judge consider a torn or
worn
flag to be improper as well? (If it's ripped, its doesn't fit the
description
of code flag B, does it?) Would having it in the helmsman's pocket take
too
long to get as well? What about the mastman's pocket? Only if he's
stationed
at the starboard shrouds? Doesnt' seem seamanlike to station a man at the
starboard shrouds when you're on port tack, but, hey, let's be ready to
fly
that flag! (Though the rules no longer require flying it from a
particular
side, tradition calls for flying it from the starboard.) In my
rulebook, it
calls for a protest flag to be conspicuously displayed "at the first
reasonable
opportunity..." It does not appear that the international judge is being
reasonable. Perhaps something was lost in the translation.

Protest flag
 

Within one of the 'cases' and cases should be used as guidelines, not
gospel, the decision was, the protestor is obligated to hail 'protest' as
per the rules, and fly the swallow tail code B flag, as per rules. There is
not obligation that his or her hail of protest be heard by the protestee.

In terms of where one should store the signal flag, that is up to the
skipper. I do know of some active racers who have the protest flag attached
to their backstay, rolled, and a quick release cord sets it flying --
outcome of a competitive association he races in. Mind you, he and I have
'tangled' a few times, he asked for room, and I responded nope, not
entitled. He hailed protest, and I counter with a protest hail and stated
both on a rule violation and poor sportsmanship. Enough was enough, time to
call his bluff and put an end to his trying to intimidate everyone on the
planet. Games!

But within a hearing, one has to use common sense in these matters and
determine what was reasonable time. You can imagine what it is like for
most starts, and with some screaming and hollering going on, one wonders
who, what, where, us.... It seems to me that it used to be with the smaller
boats that the start line was very aggressive. Now, it seems with the
larger, faster boats, it gets very tight and rough in the start areas. I
wonder why? What has changed?

Protest flag
 

We keep our protest flag on our backstay, its velcroed on and is rolled
up and held closed with a piece of duct tape with a tab for a quick
display. Just because its there doesn't mean we are agressive about
protesting people. In fact we use it so infrequently that I went to display
it the
other day and it refused to unroll. Time to get a new one I guess :-) Its
not
there for the intimidation factor, its there to be used if needed. We don't
yell protest at anyone unless we mean to follow through but if we do protest
someone we don't want it disallowed because we didn't fly the flag
fast enough.

"Art Engel" wrote in message
...
Dennis Bartley wrote:

For what little it's worth, I sat on a hearing with an international
judge
this weekend. On the issue of timeliness of a flag, his opinion was that
if
you have to go below to get it, it's too long.

The reason to talk about this stuff is to learn and improve your
sailing - even the unpopular protest part of it.

If you have to go below to LOOK for your protest flag I doubt any
judge will think that is "first reasonable oppurtunity". It is gear
like halyards and sheets and sails and should be readily available. On
the other hand, if you store it in the chart table and need to duck
below for a couple of seconds to grab it then I think most judges
would consider it timely BUT be aware that some judges will think you
are probably pushing the limit. Serious racers keep it available on
deck.

It is definitely NOT considered unsportsmanlike to have the protest
flag on deck ready to go. Sportsmanship encourages protests to resolve
uncertainties. It is questionable whether a boat could ever be DSQed
for NOT protesting but it certainly is a theoretical possibility.
Protesting is NOT bad. My ideal fleet is one where boats protest when
appropriate, boats take penalties most of the time and so the protests
that actually go to the room are uncommon but not rare.

Art Engel
e-mail: artengel123 (at) earthlink.net
Web: http://www.racingrules.org

Protest flag
 

"J. Balk" wrote in message

We keep our protest flag on our backstay, its velcroed on and is
rolled up and held closed with a piece of duct tape with a tab for a
quick display.

It used to be a great insult to say of a skipper that he 'started with
his protest flag set in stops'.

Perhaps the aggressive dinghy fleets where keeping it taped to the
shroud was the most convenient place have changed things.

Although I well remember a very successful dinghy skipper who always
always appeared quite effiminate wearing a scarlet cravat while sailing
.... until you fouled him and saw him whip it off and hang it in the
shroud g.

John