On 4/16/2017 12:44 PM, Poco Deplorevole wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 10:42:15 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 08:05:49 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

Man, I almost spilled a mouthful of coffee onto my keyboard. Our
military leaders are not going to defeat these determined "religious"
fighters. Their cells are highly mobile and can spring up anywhere and
wreak havoc. If by some miracle our forces chased ISIS out of where it
is now, it'll just re-emerge Phoenix-like, somewhere else.

I could **** you off right away and make you a hawk if I pointed out
why we have any interest in the middle east at all. It certainly is
not oil.


Maybe it's just simple humanitarianism.



Isn't it odd that the progressive liberals who talk so much about
rights of the downtrodden and oppressed seem to have little concern for
those who live elsewhere in the world.

On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 09:10:05 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote:

On 4/16/17 8:51 AM, Tim wrote:
So I'm a moron for speaking the truth.

So, you are a moron for missing the point...again and again and again
and again, ad infinitum.

He made the point.

On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 08:37:05 -0400 (EDT), justan wrote:

Wrote in message:
On Sat, 15 Apr 2017 14:44:35 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 4/15/2017 2:18 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 15 Apr 2017 13:51:30 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


Come on Greg. A WWII vintage 5-inch shell or ammo for a .45 isn't the
same as a $15M bomb (not counting development costs) that undergoes
regular updating for improvements. We only built 15 of them. They
aren't "throwaways". Geeze.

Since when has DoD cared about the cost of things they throw away?
If it really has TNT in it, it certainly has a ticking clock. (I still
bet it is a mix of RDX and ammonium nitrate)


I don't know and you don't know. You are "betting".

I am sure a few minutes poking around and you could find a more
knowledgable article than Time magazine and they would tell you the
explosive. These are still just blunt force weapons and there is no
reason to keep the filler secret.

There are strict rules about classes of ordinance and what is service
ready, training or trash, based on the age. They know nothing lasts
forever. There are certainly expiration dates on ordinance.
The guidance package may actually expire before the bomb, just because
of capacitor degradation. My 20 year old PCs are becoming few and far
between because of that fact alone. I do not have a single socket 7
board that still works.


Heh. You're comparing your 20 year old PC with a mil-spec guidance
system that is subject to regular upgrades?

Maybe you have forgotten some of your USCG days Greg. The military
doesn't just store away equipment in a storage shed for 20 years in
case they may need it someday. Each branch of the services has a
"Planned Maintenance Program" for virtually *everything* they use or
have in inventory. Regular tests are done, some weekly, some monthly,
some annually depending on what the equipment is and there are specific
requirements the equipment must meet. If they don't they are repaired,
if the repair is not economically feasible there is a complex procedure
for retiring it and taking it off the books.

The Planned Maintenance Program also deals with scheduled upgrades and
improvements as they become available.

In the case of the actual ordinance, the "plan" is you throw the old
stuff away. Ammo, explosives and the fuzes degrade chemically and
there is no "fixing" that.
A agree the guidance package might get "fixed" but that fix is
probably throw away all of the cards and install new ones.
The world of electronics has changed a lot since we were soldering
parts in on the ship. If they still fixed things, I might still be at
IBM. ;-)


Thats a dumb plan. Throwing away potentially good explosive
devices. The old stuff still can be dropped and cause blunt force
trauma even if the explosivefails. Waste not want
not.

I'm thinking his 'old stuff' was *accidentally* left to begin 'oozing'. The Army, at least the units
I was in, would use the older ammo for training as opposed to dumping it in the sea. I can't believe
the Coast Guard would purposely let ammo get so old it began 'oozing' unless someone f'ed up big
time.

On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 08:39:08 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote:

On 4/16/17 8:37 AM, justan wrote:
Wrote in message:
On Sat, 15 Apr 2017 14:44:35 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 4/15/2017 2:18 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 15 Apr 2017 13:51:30 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


Come on Greg. A WWII vintage 5-inch shell or ammo for a .45 isn't the
same as a $15M bomb (not counting development costs) that undergoes
regular updating for improvements. We only built 15 of them. They
aren't "throwaways". Geeze.

Since when has DoD cared about the cost of things they throw away?
If it really has TNT in it, it certainly has a ticking clock. (I still
bet it is a mix of RDX and ammonium nitrate)


I don't know and you don't know. You are "betting".

I am sure a few minutes poking around and you could find a more
knowledgable article than Time magazine and they would tell you the
explosive. These are still just blunt force weapons and there is no
reason to keep the filler secret.

There are strict rules about classes of ordinance and what is service
ready, training or trash, based on the age. They know nothing lasts
forever. There are certainly expiration dates on ordinance.
The guidance package may actually expire before the bomb, just because
of capacitor degradation. My 20 year old PCs are becoming few and far
between because of that fact alone. I do not have a single socket 7
board that still works.


Heh. You're comparing your 20 year old PC with a mil-spec guidance
system that is subject to regular upgrades?

Maybe you have forgotten some of your USCG days Greg. The military
doesn't just store away equipment in a storage shed for 20 years in
case they may need it someday. Each branch of the services has a
"Planned Maintenance Program" for virtually *everything* they use or
have in inventory. Regular tests are done, some weekly, some monthly,
some annually depending on what the equipment is and there are specific
requirements the equipment must meet. If they don't they are repaired,
if the repair is not economically feasible there is a complex procedure
for retiring it and taking it off the books.

The Planned Maintenance Program also deals with scheduled upgrades and
improvements as they become available.

In the case of the actual ordinance, the "plan" is you throw the old
stuff away. Ammo, explosives and the fuzes degrade chemically and
there is no "fixing" that.
A agree the guidance package might get "fixed" but that fix is
probably throw away all of the cards and install new ones.
The world of electronics has changed a lot since we were soldering
parts in on the ship. If they still fixed things, I might still be at
IBM. ;-)


Thats a dumb plan. Throwing away potentially good explosive
devices. The old stuff still can be dropped and cause blunt force
trauma even if the explosive
fails. Waste not want
not.



That must be why you work so hard here to remain in an undisclosed
location in the witless protection plan.

Ah, the problem of empty cells in your data base, eh Krause?

If I've told you once, I've told you a dozen times...tell me what you need to know and I'll help you
out!

On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 10:24:06 -0400,
wrote:

On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 09:20:57 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

I think the solution lies with the muslim world. We're not getting the
kind of help or leadership from any of the Muslim countries that we
need.

===

You're absolutely right about that. Pakistan is arguably one of the
more advanced Muslim countries and they're still stoning people to
death for blasphemy.

So what? Why do we care what they do in their own country? There are
plenty of western europeans who think we are barbarians too.

On 4/16/2017 11:11 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:

On 4/16/17 10:21 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:


I don't like *any* organized religion, though some seem more tolerable
(less hate-filled and warlike than others).



Well, an Islamic fundamentalist who believes in extreme Sharia Law isn't
going to just accept a "no thanks" should he come knocking on your
door. Maybe that's why you have such an interest in firearms?

Not realistic right now of course, but it is possible someday if we
don't pay attention now.




We have an extended muslim family down the street, a physician, sons,
daughters, grandkids. The physician was the guy who sold the land for
our little subdivision to the builder. He also helped raise the funds
for the mosque, which is across the street from our community hospital,
where, before he retired, he was chief of medicine. I've talked to him
and his family members many times over the years, and not once have any
of them brought up religion.

What does your extended muslim family down the street have to do with
anything we are talking about? We have a local business owned by
Muslims in our area as well. My wife and I frequent their store almost
daily and I don't even think of the fact that they are Muslim.

We were talking about radical Islamic terrorists who subscribe to a
fundamentalist interpretation of Sharia Law and have, as an objective,
the conversion or death of those with other beliefs on the planet.
You've heard of them. They cut off your head if you won't convert.

On 4/16/2017 10:39 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 07:51:30 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

Winning is not included in the game plan. We don't even have a plan of
what a win looks like, same as Vietnam.



The goal in Vietnam wasn't to "win". Same in Korea.

Why would we send our kids into a war we had no plans of winning?



Ask Truman and LBJ.

Both Bushs learned the lessons of Vietnam. Once a decision was made to
wage a war, it was done so in a manner to win. Harry will yak about
third rate armies, but a Russian tank is a tank regardless and Saddam
had a bunch of them.

Both excursions into Iraq weren't even close in terms of "not winning".

On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 12:52:01 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 4/16/2017 12:44 PM, Poco Deplorevole wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 10:42:15 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 08:05:49 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

Man, I almost spilled a mouthful of coffee onto my keyboard. Our
military leaders are not going to defeat these determined "religious"
fighters. Their cells are highly mobile and can spring up anywhere and
wreak havoc. If by some miracle our forces chased ISIS out of where it
is now, it'll just re-emerge Phoenix-like, somewhere else.

I could **** you off right away and make you a hawk if I pointed out
why we have any interest in the middle east at all. It certainly is
not oil.


Maybe it's just simple humanitarianism.



Isn't it odd that the progressive liberals who talk so much about
rights of the downtrodden and oppressed seem to have little concern for
those who live elsewhere in the world.

Yup.

On 4/16/2017 10:50 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 08:37:05 -0400 (EDT), justan wrote:

Thats a dumb plan. Throwing away potentially good explosive
devices. The old stuff still can be dropped and cause blunt force
trauma even if the explosivefails. Waste not want
not.


It may be a dumb plan but it is how the military operates. This comes
down to chemistry more than politics. Explosives definitely have a
shelf life and beyond that they become unreliable. They may just be
less effective but they can also become more sensitive and that is a
worse problem. The exudate that oozes out of shells loaded with TNT
can be very dangerous.
Military explosives generally have longer shelf lives than commercial
explosives but that is simply more than a few years out to 20 or so.


You keep saying that and I don't disagree with you when it comes to
cheap, WWII era ordnance or .45 rounds that you apparently had some
experience in disposing of in 1965. But, what makes you think or what
evidence do you have that today, 52 years later (half a century) that
the same policy exists for $15M a pop weapons?

On 4/16/17 12:52 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 4/16/2017 12:44 PM, Poco Deplorevole wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 10:42:15 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 08:05:49 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

Man, I almost spilled a mouthful of coffee onto my keyboard. Our
military leaders are not going to defeat these determined "religious"
fighters. Their cells are highly mobile and can spring up anywhere and
wreak havoc. If by some miracle our forces chased ISIS out of where it
is now, it'll just re-emerge Phoenix-like, somewhere else.

I could **** you off right away and make you a hawk if I pointed out
why we have any interest in the middle east at all. It certainly is
not oil.


Maybe it's just simple humanitarianism.



Isn't it odd that the progressive liberals who talk so much about
rights of the downtrodden and oppressed seem to have little concern for
those who live elsewhere in the world.

Yeah, we're making a big change in the lives of those Syrians, the ones
who are not good enough to be rescued and brought here after vetting.