On Wed, 14 Sep 2016 13:45:32 -0500, Califbill
wrote:

wrote:
On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 11:02:07 -0500, Califbill
wrote:

I went to school for 36 weeks to
learn to fix mainframe computer systems for NCR.

Yikes, the longest mainframe school I ever went to was 8 weeks. They
sent you back to the field for a while, then you went back for a more
advanced course. Once you got a feel for the culture of the various
families, (Endicott, Kingston or Rochester) you usually did not need
much additional education to figure that stuff out anyway. If you were
trained on a 168, it wasn't hard to figure out what a 3033 or a 3090
was doing. The Rochester machines were even more so. If you understood
any AS/400, you understood them all. The hardware may have been
different but the maintenance package was the same and they all ran
the same software.
When I moved to Florida I waived training on about 400 boxes because
the technology of virtually all of the "industry systems" (ATMs, Cash
registers, teller terminals etc) was robbed from the UC.5 support
processor we had been using on Endicott mainframes for over a decade.
The rest was just belts, pulleys and wheels. Same with the 3890 check
sorter. It took me a few weeks to get a feel for the ink ****er and
some of the adjustments on the feed but it is just a paper pusher, run
by a 360/25 processor and I was a region specialist on the 25.



The 36 weeks was basic electronics for some weeks, and then the mainframe,
and all the peripherals. They we still discrete transistors back then, and
we learned to fix individual boards.

They used to break our stuff up more than that. You would generally
get the basic school and a few products. Go back and get comfortable
with those and then go back to school for more complex products.
It was a process where you build on prior skills that you have had
practical experience with.

On Wed, 14 Sep 2016 15:06:13 -0400, Justan Olphart
wrote:

On 9/14/2016 2:45 PM, Califbill wrote:
wrote:
On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 11:02:07 -0500, Califbill
wrote:

I went to school for 36 weeks to
learn to fix mainframe computer systems for NCR.

Yikes, the longest mainframe school I ever went to was 8 weeks. They
sent you back to the field for a while, then you went back for a more
advanced course. Once you got a feel for the culture of the various
families, (Endicott, Kingston or Rochester) you usually did not need
much additional education to figure that stuff out anyway. If you were
trained on a 168, it wasn't hard to figure out what a 3033 or a 3090
was doing. The Rochester machines were even more so. If you understood
any AS/400, you understood them all. The hardware may have been
different but the maintenance package was the same and they all ran
the same software.
When I moved to Florida I waived training on about 400 boxes because
the technology of virtually all of the "industry systems" (ATMs, Cash
registers, teller terminals etc) was robbed from the UC.5 support
processor we had been using on Endicott mainframes for over a decade.
The rest was just belts, pulleys and wheels. Same with the 3890 check
sorter. It took me a few weeks to get a feel for the ink ****er and
some of the adjustments on the feed but it is just a paper pusher, run
by a 360/25 processor and I was a region specialist on the 25.



The 36 weeks was basic electronics for some weeks, and then the mainframe,
and all the peripherals. They we still discrete transistors back then, and
we learned to fix individual boards.

When I got into the game Burroughs was using parallel plate packages and
memory cores hand wired in Brazil. No monitors, just TTY with paper tape
or cards for input. Man, I'm old.

We did not have CRT displays until the latest versions of big S/370s.
1401's did not really have any console, the 1620s used a model B
typewriter. S/360 used a Selectric and the early 370 used a matrix
printer. I did not really have any CRT consoles until the 4300s

On 9/13/2016 8:45 PM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 9/13/16 7:39 PM, Califbill wrote:
Keyser Soze wrote:
On 9/13/16 4:41 PM, Califbill wrote:
Poquito Loco wrote:
On Tue, 13 Sep 2016 10:57:27 -0500, Califbill
wrote:

Keyser Soze wrote:
On 9/12/16 10:50 PM, Califbill wrote:
Keyser Soze wrote:
On 9/12/16 8:26 PM, Califbill wrote:
Keyser Soze wrote:
On 9/12/16 12:02 PM, Califbill wrote:
Keyser Soze wrote:
On 9/11/16 8:00 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 11 Sep 2016 19:42:19 -0400, Keyser Soze

wrote:


You mean the ones who have gone through three to four
years of serious
apprenticeship training and on the job training?
Absolutely in
comparison to those who haven't.

I am having a hard time thinking of a trade that takes 4
years to
learn. This is more about limiting the number of people
who can get
into the trades.
There may have been a time when trades were arts but
technology has
made the most intricate skills obsolete. Nobody is packing
oakum in
cast iron pipe and filling it with molten lead.


Your experience on jobsites that are more than stick built
houses and
tilt up strip malls obviously is limited. Try laying out
and building a
one wythe serpentine wall 100' feet long, building a 12 story
loadbearing office building, doing the pipe welding for a
nuclear
facility or the iron work on a 60-story building and get
back to me with
your two weeks of training. Your arrogance about the lack
of skills of
construction craftworkers never ceases to astonish.


4 years? My brother was a welder on a nuclear facility. He
was a welder
on the nuke plant they built in the Antarctic. He did not
spend 4 years
learning to weld pipe. Building a 12 story, or a 50 story
building, takes
engineering talent, and lots of training. To bolt, rivet or
weld that
frame does not take 4 years to learn. I went to school for
36 weeks to
learn to fix mainframe computer systems for NCR. I got a 4
year degree in
Electronic engineering. That did not require 4 years of 40
hour weeks.



Try reading for content. Apprenticeship programs in the
skilled trades
typically run three to four years of classroom and practical
training.
I love the attempts here to minimize the skills necessary to
build large
or complex structures. Hell, man, you fell off the roof of a
house, right?

Here, go argue with the owners of this site:

http://www.constructionskills.org/pages/at.html

Apprentices who enter the construction industry through
Construction
Skills attend classes paid for by unions and contractors, while
simultaneously being employed on projects in their craft
throughout New
York City.*

As part of a registered apprenticeship program, apprentices
receive a
minimum of 144 hours of annual classroom instruction covering
the
theory, principles and technical knowledge required to do the
job. They
also receive on-the-job training while employed at wages
which increase
as their skills progress.

At the successful conclusion of apprenticeship training,
which typically
lasts 3-5 years depending on the trade, apprentices graduate
to journey
workers. Journey workers are recognized as the most qualified
members of
their craft and are paid top wages and benefits.

Apprenticeship is the process of learning a skilled
occupation through:

On-the-job training (practical, paid experience)

Classroom training (related, technical education)

All training is afforded to you free-of-charge as a union member
(similar to a scholarship)
Apprentices earn approximately $15–20 per hour plus benefits
Journey workers earn approximately $30–40 per hour plus benefits

The length of training varies from two to five years,
depending on the
trade.**


* and ** It's pretty much the same for union apprenticeships
throughout
the U.S. and Canada.


So, once again, in your long history of doing so, you have
ejaculated
nonsense and ignorance.


Does not take 4 years. Fact is with an engineering degree, I
can get a
general contractors license with one year of experience.


And build what? Roofs to fall off of?



Hire a drunk union carpenter to fall.


Well, the first part of your statement might explain why you fell
off
that roof...you were drunk.


Might, but have not been drunk for over 40 years. Group went out
after a
class.

Harry and Donnie have been telling that lie for years. Don't know why,
but they must get a charge
out of making up lies. Part of narcissism, I suppose.


Guilt at their own failings.


Frankly, Bilious, this newsgroup has gotten so right-wing, disgusting,
full of racists and other deplorables that even I can barely tolerate
it, so I am sure I'll be moving on soon and leaving you boys to wallow
in your own feces, ****, and vomit. The Facebook groups in which I
participate aren't filled with bigoted posters who can't get erections
except via their own snarkiness.



You are bigoted, and so full of ****, is a wonder you do not explode.
This
newsgroup is pretty middle of the road, except for 1 or 2. And I doubt
like hell you ever willfully quit posting.


Sorry, Bilious, but I am not bigoted towards anyone because of their
race, skin color, ethnicity, country of origin, gender, age, et cetera.
These are the aspects of humanity people are born with and over which
they have no or very little control. I am not a fan of those who claim
to be religious but act and speak as if they aren't, and I have little
use for many of today's Republicans, who are, indeed, deplorable, but
that doesn't mean I would discriminate against them in commerce.

As for the overwhelming number of posters here being "middle of the
road," well, I find that to be hilarious bull****.

There's very little here, Bilious, and most of what is posted is TDC.

Bye.

wrote:
On Wed, 14 Sep 2016 13:45:32 -0500, Califbill
wrote:

wrote:
On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 11:02:07 -0500, Califbill
wrote:

I went to school for 36 weeks to
learn to fix mainframe computer systems for NCR.

Yikes, the longest mainframe school I ever went to was 8 weeks. They
sent you back to the field for a while, then you went back for a more
advanced course. Once you got a feel for the culture of the various
families, (Endicott, Kingston or Rochester) you usually did not need
much additional education to figure that stuff out anyway. If you were
trained on a 168, it wasn't hard to figure out what a 3033 or a 3090
was doing. The Rochester machines were even more so. If you understood
any AS/400, you understood them all. The hardware may have been
different but the maintenance package was the same and they all ran
the same software.
When I moved to Florida I waived training on about 400 boxes because
the technology of virtually all of the "industry systems" (ATMs, Cash
registers, teller terminals etc) was robbed from the UC.5 support
processor we had been using on Endicott mainframes for over a decade.
The rest was just belts, pulleys and wheels. Same with the 3890 check
sorter. It took me a few weeks to get a feel for the ink ****er and
some of the adjustments on the feed but it is just a paper pusher, run
by a 360/25 processor and I was a region specialist on the 25.



The 36 weeks was basic electronics for some weeks, and then the mainframe,
and all the peripherals. They we still discrete transistors back then, and
we learned to fix individual boards.

They used to break our stuff up more than that. You would generally
get the basic school and a few products. Go back and get comfortable
with those and then go back to school for more complex products.
It was a process where you build on prior skills that you have had
practical experience with.


We did that after the first school. On the 315 computer course, you had to
learn the system and peripherals.

On Thu, 15 Sep 2016 10:16:14 -0500, Califbill
wrote:

wrote:
On Wed, 14 Sep 2016 13:45:32 -0500, Califbill
wrote:

wrote:
On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 11:02:07 -0500, Califbill
wrote:

I went to school for 36 weeks to
learn to fix mainframe computer systems for NCR.

Yikes, the longest mainframe school I ever went to was 8 weeks. They
sent you back to the field for a while, then you went back for a more
advanced course. Once you got a feel for the culture of the various
families, (Endicott, Kingston or Rochester) you usually did not need
much additional education to figure that stuff out anyway. If you were
trained on a 168, it wasn't hard to figure out what a 3033 or a 3090
was doing. The Rochester machines were even more so. If you understood
any AS/400, you understood them all. The hardware may have been
different but the maintenance package was the same and they all ran
the same software.
When I moved to Florida I waived training on about 400 boxes because
the technology of virtually all of the "industry systems" (ATMs, Cash
registers, teller terminals etc) was robbed from the UC.5 support
processor we had been using on Endicott mainframes for over a decade.
The rest was just belts, pulleys and wheels. Same with the 3890 check
sorter. It took me a few weeks to get a feel for the ink ****er and
some of the adjustments on the feed but it is just a paper pusher, run
by a 360/25 processor and I was a region specialist on the 25.



The 36 weeks was basic electronics for some weeks, and then the mainframe,
and all the peripherals. They we still discrete transistors back then, and
we learned to fix individual boards.

They used to break our stuff up more than that. You would generally
get the basic school and a few products. Go back and get comfortable
with those and then go back to school for more complex products.
It was a process where you build on prior skills that you have had
practical experience with.


We did that after the first school. On the 315 computer course, you had to
learn the system and peripherals.

I think the education may have been a little different, just because
of the vast numbers of different boxes we built or rebadged.
I was the "Gadget man" for a number of years and had microfilm
equipment (Diazo copiers, cameras, viewers etc), offset printing
presses and optical sheet scanners similar to what they use as voting
machines these days. It made the job more interesting. Actually fixing
cards became a thing of the past once the 360 line got going in the
60s because of the integrated circuits and the inability to actually
get the parts. There were still some boxes out there with SMS cards in
them but by the mid 70s, they were getting pretty rare. By the 80s, I
was looking for something else to do. I was working in Service
planning in Endicott and realized, actually doing much more than
cutting open the box and plugging in the card would be rare.
The new technology was really not going to break and when it did, the
service processor would be calling the card 99.99% of the time.
When I moved to Florida my main job was fixing the process of fixing
thousands of small machines spread out over 5 counties with a minimum
of people at the lowest cost and still maintaining "6 sigma" quality.
By 1990-91 that quality goal started to slip, coincidental with the
"Walmarting of America" and the writing was on the wall for me. By
1993 I had several certifications as an electrical inspector and I was
one of the early license holders in Florida.
(Pretty much all self taught)

wrote:
On Thu, 15 Sep 2016 10:16:14 -0500, Califbill
wrote:

wrote:
On Wed, 14 Sep 2016 13:45:32 -0500, Califbill
wrote:

wrote:
On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 11:02:07 -0500, Califbill
wrote:

I went to school for 36 weeks to
learn to fix mainframe computer systems for NCR.

Yikes, the longest mainframe school I ever went to was 8 weeks. They
sent you back to the field for a while, then you went back for a more
advanced course. Once you got a feel for the culture of the various
families, (Endicott, Kingston or Rochester) you usually did not need
much additional education to figure that stuff out anyway. If you were
trained on a 168, it wasn't hard to figure out what a 3033 or a 3090
was doing. The Rochester machines were even more so. If you understood
any AS/400, you understood them all. The hardware may have been
different but the maintenance package was the same and they all ran
the same software.
When I moved to Florida I waived training on about 400 boxes because
the technology of virtually all of the "industry systems" (ATMs, Cash
registers, teller terminals etc) was robbed from the UC.5 support
processor we had been using on Endicott mainframes for over a decade.
The rest was just belts, pulleys and wheels. Same with the 3890 check
sorter. It took me a few weeks to get a feel for the ink ****er and
some of the adjustments on the feed but it is just a paper pusher, run
by a 360/25 processor and I was a region specialist on the 25.



The 36 weeks was basic electronics for some weeks, and then the mainframe,
and all the peripherals. They we still discrete transistors back then, and
we learned to fix individual boards.

They used to break our stuff up more than that. You would generally
get the basic school and a few products. Go back and get comfortable
with those and then go back to school for more complex products.
It was a process where you build on prior skills that you have had
practical experience with.


We did that after the first school. On the 315 computer course, you had to
learn the system and peripherals.

I think the education may have been a little different, just because
of the vast numbers of different boxes we built or rebadged.
I was the "Gadget man" for a number of years and had microfilm
equipment (Diazo copiers, cameras, viewers etc), offset printing
presses and optical sheet scanners similar to what they use as voting
machines these days. It made the job more interesting. Actually fixing
cards became a thing of the past once the 360 line got going in the
60s because of the integrated circuits and the inability to actually
get the parts. There were still some boxes out there with SMS cards in
them but by the mid 70s, they were getting pretty rare. By the 80s, I
was looking for something else to do. I was working in Service
planning in Endicott and realized, actually doing much more than
cutting open the box and plugging in the card would be rare.
The new technology was really not going to break and when it did, the
service processor would be calling the card 99.99% of the time.
When I moved to Florida my main job was fixing the process of fixing
thousands of small machines spread out over 5 counties with a minimum
of people at the lowest cost and still maintaining "6 sigma" quality.
By 1990-91 that quality goal started to slip, coincidental with the
"Walmarting of America" and the writing was on the wall for me. By
1993 I had several certifications as an electrical inspector and I was
one of the early license holders in Florida.
(Pretty much all self taught)



Part f the difference, is the amount of boxes. NCR was maybe 5% of the big
systems of IBM. So we had to be more jack of all boxes in our offices.
IC's were in the future in 1964. We still had a rebadged, I think CDC,
tube octal based box. The first IC box I worked on was a controller
between an optical character reader and a tape drive. Before e Point Of
Sale terminals, the cash registers used an optical font that the scanner
could read. I could see the FE jobs being reduced in training in the
future. So I worked on my engineering degree. The NCR 315 was a 12 bit
machine, and later was almost the same architecture, converted to an 8 bit
character, 4 board set, that we called the 605 minicontroller. Send in an
FE and 4 boards and 99% of the time he could fix the problem. Did not take
anywhere as much training. I think the FE's trained from 1960 to 1965 were
the best trained service people as a group the world will ever see.