On Sun, 14 Aug 2016 17:44:57 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

Typically, I view government statistics that interest me "relatively,"
especially the ones under questions because of the inherent vagaries of
data gathering and manipulation.

Perhaps back in the olden days when people were using a pencil,
"statistics" was an arcane science but these days it is just data base
analysis. The first rule is garbage in garbage out. You can frame a
"view" to make the data look almost any way you want. In the case of
the unemployment number, the biggest variable is who they consider to
be unemployed. In the current view, that excludes anyone who quit, was
fired with cause, simply refused to apply for unemployment or anyone
who was never able to get a job in the first place. You are pretty
much left with the ones who were laid off, signed up for unemployment
and are still eligible for benefits.

On 8/14/16 7:54 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 14 Aug 2016 17:44:57 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

Typically, I view government statistics that interest me "relatively,"
especially the ones under questions because of the inherent vagaries of
data gathering and manipulation.

Perhaps back in the olden days when people were using a pencil,
"statistics" was an arcane science but these days it is just data base
analysis. The first rule is garbage in garbage out. You can frame a
"view" to make the data look almost any way you want. In the case of
the unemployment number, the biggest variable is who they consider to
be unemployed. In the current view, that excludes anyone who quit, was
fired with cause, simply refused to apply for unemployment or anyone
who was never able to get a job in the first place. You are pretty
much left with the ones who were laid off, signed up for unemployment
and are still eligible for benefits.


You're really overgeneralizing in your first sentence. How many
undergrad, grad, and post-grad stats courses have you taken?

On Sun, 14 Aug 2016 19:57:21 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

You're really overgeneralizing in your first sentence. How many
undergrad, grad, and post-grad stats courses have you taken?

I have a whole lot of training in database analysis along with a few
decades of actual experience running numbers that my company was
betting millions on. Sitting in a room listening to some old fart
telling me how they did things with paper records, pencils and
mechanical calculators does not interest me.
It is sort of like taking a course in celestial navigation in a GPS
world. It may be interesting (I actually am playing with a sextant and
my Bowditch) but not really that relevant as long as the computers are
still working.

I do understand that statisticians will try to fill the holes in their
data and that will take some training but it is still just an educated
guess. I like hard data.

The classic joke. "What is pi"?

Engineer ... 3.14

Mathematician 3.14159265358979323846264338327950... (until you don't
care anymore)

Statistician "around 3"

On 8/14/16 8:20 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 14 Aug 2016 19:57:21 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

You're really overgeneralizing in your first sentence. How many
undergrad, grad, and post-grad stats courses have you taken?

I have a whole lot of training in database analysis along with a few
decades of actual experience running numbers that my company was
betting millions on. Sitting in a room listening to some old fart
telling me how they did things with paper records, pencils and
mechanical calculators does not interest me.

My lovely wife took several stats courses as an undergrad, many more as
a grad student, and even more as a doctoral student. The latter were
taught by university math professors and held at the College of
Engineering. Pretty heavy math and studies in interpretation, database
analysis and more. I don't recall her mentioning paper records, pencils,
and calculators. She did use a couple of computer stats courses, though.
Upon completing her doctoral course work, she had to take and pass a
three day written examination that included doctoral level statistical
work and after that, a day of oral exam by a handful of professors,
including two from another institution and I believe one of those guys
was a math professor.


Now, me, I can do some math, but anything beyond really simple stats is
beyond my knowledge and probably ability.

On Sun, 14 Aug 2016 22:03:03 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

On 8/14/16 8:20 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 14 Aug 2016 19:57:21 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

You're really overgeneralizing in your first sentence. How many
undergrad, grad, and post-grad stats courses have you taken?

I have a whole lot of training in database analysis along with a few
decades of actual experience running numbers that my company was
betting millions on. Sitting in a room listening to some old fart
telling me how they did things with paper records, pencils and
mechanical calculators does not interest me.

My lovely wife took several stats courses as an undergrad, many more as
a grad student, and even more as a doctoral student. The latter were
taught by university math professors and held at the College of
Engineering. Pretty heavy math and studies in interpretation, database
analysis and more. I don't recall her mentioning paper records, pencils,
and calculators. She did use a couple of computer stats courses, though.
Upon completing her doctoral course work, she had to take and pass a
three day written examination that included doctoral level statistical
work and after that, a day of oral exam by a handful of professors,
including two from another institution and I believe one of those guys
was a math professor.


Now, me, I can do some math, but anything beyond really simple stats is
beyond my knowledge and probably ability.

What does that have to do with cooking the books on the unemployment
rate? Is it just the way they learn how to rationalize a bogus number?

On 8/14/16 10:11 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 14 Aug 2016 22:03:03 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

On 8/14/16 8:20 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 14 Aug 2016 19:57:21 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

You're really overgeneralizing in your first sentence. How many
undergrad, grad, and post-grad stats courses have you taken?

I have a whole lot of training in database analysis along with a few
decades of actual experience running numbers that my company was
betting millions on. Sitting in a room listening to some old fart
telling me how they did things with paper records, pencils and
mechanical calculators does not interest me.

My lovely wife took several stats courses as an undergrad, many more as
a grad student, and even more as a doctoral student. The latter were
taught by university math professors and held at the College of
Engineering. Pretty heavy math and studies in interpretation, database
analysis and more. I don't recall her mentioning paper records, pencils,
and calculators. She did use a couple of computer stats courses, though.
Upon completing her doctoral course work, she had to take and pass a
three day written examination that included doctoral level statistical
work and after that, a day of oral exam by a handful of professors,
including two from another institution and I believe one of those guys
was a math professor.


Now, me, I can do some math, but anything beyond really simple stats is
beyond my knowledge and probably ability.

What does that have to do with cooking the books on the unemployment
rate? Is it just the way they learn how to rationalize a bogus number?


I was commenting on your "lot of training."

On 8/15/2016 8:24 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 8/14/16 10:11 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 14 Aug 2016 22:03:03 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

On 8/14/16 8:20 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 14 Aug 2016 19:57:21 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

You're really overgeneralizing in your first sentence. How many
undergrad, grad, and post-grad stats courses have you taken?

I have a whole lot of training in database analysis along with a few
decades of actual experience running numbers that my company was
betting millions on. Sitting in a room listening to some old fart
telling me how they did things with paper records, pencils and
mechanical calculators does not interest me.

My lovely wife took several stats courses as an undergrad, many more as
a grad student, and even more as a doctoral student. The latter were
taught by university math professors and held at the College of
Engineering. Pretty heavy math and studies in interpretation, database
analysis and more. I don't recall her mentioning paper records, pencils,
and calculators. She did use a couple of computer stats courses, though.
Upon completing her doctoral course work, she had to take and pass a
three day written examination that included doctoral level statistical
work and after that, a day of oral exam by a handful of professors,
including two from another institution and I believe one of those guys
was a math professor.


Now, me, I can do some math, but anything beyond really simple stats is
beyond my knowledge and probably ability.

What does that have to do with cooking the books on the unemployment
rate? Is it just the way they learn how to rationalize a bogus number?


I was commenting on your "lot of training."

Sounded like you were bragging on your wifey.

On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 08:24:02 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

On 8/14/16 10:11 PM, wrote:

What does that have to do with cooking the books on the unemployment
rate? Is it just the way they learn how to rationalize a bogus number?


I was commenting on your "lot of training."

I am not sure how much actual hours translate to a credit hour but my
database skills were developed over at least 1000 hours of learning
and plenty of hands on experience with dBase and DB2. It is not as
easy to quantify as sitting in a sterile university setting because
you learn skills, use them and then learn new skills, use them etc.
all in a real world setting.

On 8/14/2016 10:03 PM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 8/14/16 8:20 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 14 Aug 2016 19:57:21 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

You're really overgeneralizing in your first sentence. How many
undergrad, grad, and post-grad stats courses have you taken?

I have a whole lot of training in database analysis along with a few
decades of actual experience running numbers that my company was
betting millions on. Sitting in a room listening to some old fart
telling me how they did things with paper records, pencils and
mechanical calculators does not interest me.

My lovely wife took several stats courses as an undergrad, many more as
a grad student, and even more as a doctoral student. The latter were
taught by university math professors and held at the College of
Engineering. Pretty heavy math and studies in interpretation, database
analysis and more. I don't recall her mentioning paper records, pencils,
and calculators. She did use a couple of computer stats courses, though.
Upon completing her doctoral course work, she had to take and pass a
three day written examination that included doctoral level statistical
work and after that, a day of oral exam by a handful of professors,
including two from another institution and I believe one of those guys
was a math professor.


Now, me, I can do some math, but anything beyond really simple stats is
beyond my knowledge and probably ability.


Heh. Yet, you are so quick to criticize Greg with regard to his
qualifications to analyze and interpret statistical data.

Maybe someday it will occur to you that the number of college degrees
one holds is *not* the most significant achievement in life.

On 8/15/2016 7:48 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 8/14/2016 10:03 PM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 8/14/16 8:20 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 14 Aug 2016 19:57:21 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

You're really overgeneralizing in your first sentence. How many
undergrad, grad, and post-grad stats courses have you taken?

I have a whole lot of training in database analysis along with a few
decades of actual experience running numbers that my company was
betting millions on. Sitting in a room listening to some old fart
telling me how they did things with paper records, pencils and
mechanical calculators does not interest me.

My lovely wife took several stats courses as an undergrad, many more as
a grad student, and even more as a doctoral student. The latter were
taught by university math professors and held at the College of
Engineering. Pretty heavy math and studies in interpretation, database
analysis and more. I don't recall her mentioning paper records, pencils,
and calculators. She did use a couple of computer stats courses, though.
Upon completing her doctoral course work, she had to take and pass a
three day written examination that included doctoral level statistical
work and after that, a day of oral exam by a handful of professors,
including two from another institution and I believe one of those guys
was a math professor.


Now, me, I can do some math, but anything beyond really simple stats is
beyond my knowledge and probably ability.


Heh. Yet, you are so quick to criticize Greg with regard to his
qualifications to analyze and interpret statistical data.

Maybe someday it will occur to you that the number of college degrees
one holds is *not* the most significant achievement in life.


If you had to guess, by their postings, between Krause and Greg, which
one is the college graduate, I'd bet you'd guess wrong.