On 4/19/2016 7:48 AM, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 4/19/16 6:15 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 4/19/2016 12:44 AM, Boating All Out wrote:
In article FPKdnckyYI1-ZonKnZ2dnUU7-
, says...


According to you and BOA, there was only *one* reason for the Civil War
... slavery.

I'm still waiting for your history text
recomendations that say otherwise.
I have no idea why you think the Civil War would have
occurred but for slavery. It makes no sense.
Maybe in searching for text to support your view, you
will be enlightened.
At least you haven't suggested that blacks were
better off being enslaved, as did Greg.



Rather than a book (that I doubt you would read) here's a couple of
rational discussions on the conventional wisdom that the Civil War
was just about slavery:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeff-schweitzer/slavery-and-the-civil-war_b_849066.html



http://www.globalresearch.ca/falsifying-history-on-behalf-of-agendas-us-civil-war-was-about-money-not-slavery/5464841





Slavery and the many issues attached to it, including economics, were
the cause and rationale for the Civil War. History revisionists and
apologists don't like to acknowledge the fact that at times in its
history, the United States was no better than many other countries in
its treatment of people of color. It's the same sort of argument you get
from Christian apologists who claim the horrors committed in the name of
that religion were somehow less horrible than the horrors committed in
the name of other religions.

Posit: If there had been no slavery in the South, there would have been
no Civil War.

We will never know. Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation didn't end
slavery. He made exceptions. He even publicly stated that blacks
should not have the full citizenship rights of whites.

There were many reasons for the Civil War. Abolishing slavery is a
simple and convenient explanation but it isn't the full story. It was
really seeded in state's rights as interpreted by the south and the
feeling that the federal government was becoming too intrusive.

On 4/19/16 8:06 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 4/19/2016 7:48 AM, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 4/19/16 6:15 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 4/19/2016 12:44 AM, Boating All Out wrote:
In article FPKdnckyYI1-ZonKnZ2dnUU7-
, says...


According to you and BOA, there was only *one* reason for the Civil
War
... slavery.

I'm still waiting for your history text
recomendations that say otherwise.
I have no idea why you think the Civil War would have
occurred but for slavery. It makes no sense.
Maybe in searching for text to support your view, you
will be enlightened.
At least you haven't suggested that blacks were
better off being enslaved, as did Greg.



Rather than a book (that I doubt you would read) here's a couple of
rational discussions on the conventional wisdom that the Civil War
was just about slavery:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeff-schweitzer/slavery-and-the-civil-war_b_849066.html




http://www.globalresearch.ca/falsifying-history-on-behalf-of-agendas-us-civil-war-was-about-money-not-slavery/5464841






Slavery and the many issues attached to it, including economics, were
the cause and rationale for the Civil War. History revisionists and
apologists don't like to acknowledge the fact that at times in its
history, the United States was no better than many other countries in
its treatment of people of color. It's the same sort of argument you get
from Christian apologists who claim the horrors committed in the name of
that religion were somehow less horrible than the horrors committed in
the name of other religions.

Posit: If there had been no slavery in the South, there would have been
no Civil War.

We will never know. Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation didn't end
slavery. He made exceptions. He even publicly stated that blacks
should not have the full citizenship rights of whites.

There were many reasons for the Civil War. Abolishing slavery is a
simple and convenient explanation but it isn't the full story. It was
really seeded in state's rights as interpreted by the south and the
feeling that the federal government was becoming too intrusive.





There have been many books written and discussions held about the causes
of the Civil War.

Some years ago, PBS had such a discussion that produced the following
comments. From the PBS site:

Drew Gilpin Faust: (President, Harvard University): "Historians are
pretty united on the cause of the Civil War being slavery."

Walter Edgar (Professor of History, University of South Carolina): "the
169 men who voted to secede first from the Union said, in their
declaration of causes, that it was ... [to] protect slavery and their
other domestic institutions ... and the men of 1860 and 1861 in other
Southern states were pretty blunt about what they were doing [also]"

Edna Medford (Professor of History, Howard University: "there was that
.... Southern perspective about the war: 'We may have lost the war, but
.... it was such a noble cause for which we fight' ... now, to take that
position, you're sort of on the fringes of historiography."

Slavery was the major cause of the Civil War. And as Gary Stein put it,
the "States' Rights" that people talk about as an alternative cause were
first and foremost about allowing states to perpetuate the institution
of slavery.

On 4/19/16 8:14 AM, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 4/19/16 8:06 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 4/19/2016 7:48 AM, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 4/19/16 6:15 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 4/19/2016 12:44 AM, Boating All Out wrote:
In article FPKdnckyYI1-ZonKnZ2dnUU7-
, says...


According to you and BOA, there was only *one* reason for the Civil
War
... slavery.

I'm still waiting for your history text
recomendations that say otherwise.
I have no idea why you think the Civil War would have
occurred but for slavery. It makes no sense.
Maybe in searching for text to support your view, you
will be enlightened.
At least you haven't suggested that blacks were
better off being enslaved, as did Greg.



Rather than a book (that I doubt you would read) here's a couple of
rational discussions on the conventional wisdom that the Civil War
was just about slavery:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeff-schweitzer/slavery-and-the-civil-war_b_849066.html





http://www.globalresearch.ca/falsifying-history-on-behalf-of-agendas-us-civil-war-was-about-money-not-slavery/5464841







Slavery and the many issues attached to it, including economics, were
the cause and rationale for the Civil War. History revisionists and
apologists don't like to acknowledge the fact that at times in its
history, the United States was no better than many other countries in
its treatment of people of color. It's the same sort of argument you get
from Christian apologists who claim the horrors committed in the name of
that religion were somehow less horrible than the horrors committed in
the name of other religions.

Posit: If there had been no slavery in the South, there would have been
no Civil War.

We will never know. Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation didn't end
slavery. He made exceptions. He even publicly stated that blacks
should not have the full citizenship rights of whites.

There were many reasons for the Civil War. Abolishing slavery is a
simple and convenient explanation but it isn't the full story. It was
really seeded in state's rights as interpreted by the south and the
feeling that the federal government was becoming too intrusive.





There have been many books written and discussions held about the causes
of the Civil War.

Some years ago, PBS had such a discussion that produced the following
comments. From the PBS site:

Drew Gilpin Faust: (President, Harvard University): "Historians are
pretty united on the cause of the Civil War being slavery."

Walter Edgar (Professor of History, University of South Carolina): "the
169 men who voted to secede first from the Union said, in their
declaration of causes, that it was ... [to] protect slavery and their
other domestic institutions ... and the men of 1860 and 1861 in other
Southern states were pretty blunt about what they were doing [also]"

Edna Medford (Professor of History, Howard University: "there was that
... Southern perspective about the war: 'We may have lost the war, but
... it was such a noble cause for which we fight' ... now, to take that
position, you're sort of on the fringes of historiography."

Slavery was the major cause of the Civil War. And as Gary Stein put it,
the "States' Rights" that people talk about as an alternative cause were
first and foremost about allowing states to perpetuate the institution
of slavery.


Forgot to include the Declaration of Causes from the South...and there's
no doubt after reading it that slavery was the cause of the Civil War:

http://www.civilwar.org/education/hi...nofcauses.html

On Tue, 19 Apr 2016 08:14:42 -0400, Keyser Söze
wrote:


Some years ago, PBS had such a discussion that produced the following
comments. From the PBS site:

Drew Gilpin Faust: (President, Harvard University): "Historians are
pretty united on the cause of the Civil War being slavery."

Walter Edgar (Professor of History, University of South Carolina): "the
169 men who voted to secede first from the Union said, in their
declaration of causes, that it was ... [to] protect slavery and their
other domestic institutions ... and the men of 1860 and 1861 in other
Southern states were pretty blunt about what they were doing [also]"

Edna Medford (Professor of History, Howard University: "there was that
... Southern perspective about the war: 'We may have lost the war, but
... it was such a noble cause for which we fight' ... now, to take that
position, you're sort of on the fringes of historiography."

Slavery was the major cause of the Civil War. And as Gary Stein put it,
the "States' Rights" that people talk about as an alternative cause were
first and foremost about allowing states to perpetuate the institution
of slavery.

You don't think "Howard University" might have a little bit of a
slant?
What does Cornell West say? ;-)

On 4/19/16 12:12 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2016 08:14:42 -0400, Keyser Söze
wrote:


Some years ago, PBS had such a discussion that produced the following
comments. From the PBS site:

Drew Gilpin Faust: (President, Harvard University): "Historians are
pretty united on the cause of the Civil War being slavery."

Walter Edgar (Professor of History, University of South Carolina): "the
169 men who voted to secede first from the Union said, in their
declaration of causes, that it was ... [to] protect slavery and their
other domestic institutions ... and the men of 1860 and 1861 in other
Southern states were pretty blunt about what they were doing [also]"

Edna Medford (Professor of History, Howard University: "there was that
... Southern perspective about the war: 'We may have lost the war, but
... it was such a noble cause for which we fight' ... now, to take that
position, you're sort of on the fringes of historiography."

Slavery was the major cause of the Civil War. And as Gary Stein put it,
the "States' Rights" that people talk about as an alternative cause were
first and foremost about allowing states to perpetuate the institution
of slavery.

You don't think "Howard University" might have a little bit of a
slant?
What does Cornell West say? ;-)


I don't know, as I don't pay much attention to Professor West.

I understand you skipped college and are down on institutions of higher
education.

On Tue, 19 Apr 2016 12:19:54 -0400, Keyser Söze
wrote:

On 4/19/16 12:12 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2016 08:14:42 -0400, Keyser Söze
wrote:


Some years ago, PBS had such a discussion that produced the following
comments. From the PBS site:

Drew Gilpin Faust: (President, Harvard University): "Historians are
pretty united on the cause of the Civil War being slavery."

Walter Edgar (Professor of History, University of South Carolina): "the
169 men who voted to secede first from the Union said, in their
declaration of causes, that it was ... [to] protect slavery and their
other domestic institutions ... and the men of 1860 and 1861 in other
Southern states were pretty blunt about what they were doing [also]"

Edna Medford (Professor of History, Howard University: "there was that
... Southern perspective about the war: 'We may have lost the war, but
... it was such a noble cause for which we fight' ... now, to take that
position, you're sort of on the fringes of historiography."

Slavery was the major cause of the Civil War. And as Gary Stein put it,
the "States' Rights" that people talk about as an alternative cause were
first and foremost about allowing states to perpetuate the institution
of slavery.

You don't think "Howard University" might have a little bit of a
slant?
What does Cornell West say? ;-)


I don't know, as I don't pay much attention to Professor West.

I understand you skipped college and are down on institutions of higher
education.

It is ironic that the university culture is supposed to promote free
thinking and looking at alternate ideas but you folks are the most
conformist people in our society. I just tossed out an idea that there
may have been a better solution than a war that killed 2 % of the
population, destroyed the economy and caused a divisiveness that has
not really waned and your answer is " nope war is the only answer". I
guess Cheney went to the same college system as you.

On 4/19/16 2:53 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2016 12:19:54 -0400, Keyser Söze
wrote:

On 4/19/16 12:12 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2016 08:14:42 -0400, Keyser Söze
wrote:


Some years ago, PBS had such a discussion that produced the following
comments. From the PBS site:

Drew Gilpin Faust: (President, Harvard University): "Historians are
pretty united on the cause of the Civil War being slavery."

Walter Edgar (Professor of History, University of South Carolina): "the
169 men who voted to secede first from the Union said, in their
declaration of causes, that it was ... [to] protect slavery and their
other domestic institutions ... and the men of 1860 and 1861 in other
Southern states were pretty blunt about what they were doing [also]"

Edna Medford (Professor of History, Howard University: "there was that
... Southern perspective about the war: 'We may have lost the war, but
... it was such a noble cause for which we fight' ... now, to take that
position, you're sort of on the fringes of historiography."

Slavery was the major cause of the Civil War. And as Gary Stein put it,
the "States' Rights" that people talk about as an alternative cause were
first and foremost about allowing states to perpetuate the institution
of slavery.

You don't think "Howard University" might have a little bit of a
slant?
What does Cornell West say? ;-)


I don't know, as I don't pay much attention to Professor West.

I understand you skipped college and are down on institutions of higher
education.

It is ironic that the university culture is supposed to promote free
thinking and looking at alternate ideas but you folks are the most
conformist people in our society. I just tossed out an idea that there
may have been a better solution than a war that killed 2 % of the
population, destroyed the economy and caused a divisiveness that has
not really waned and your answer is " nope war is the only answer". I
guess Cheney went to the same college system as you.


Actually, universities promote "critical thinking." As a "freethinker,"
you should know it is dangerous to come to conclusions based upon
insufficient evidence. Critical thinking requires more discipline.

On Tue, 19 Apr 2016 15:23:17 -0400, Keyser Söze
wrote:

On 4/19/16 2:53 PM, wrote:

It is ironic that the university culture is supposed to promote free
thinking and looking at alternate ideas but you folks are the most
conformist people in our society. I just tossed out an idea that there
may have been a better solution than a war that killed 2 % of the
population, destroyed the economy and caused a divisiveness that has
not really waned and your answer is " nope war is the only answer". I
guess Cheney went to the same college system as you.


Actually, universities promote "critical thinking." As a "freethinker,"
you should know it is dangerous to come to conclusions based upon
insufficient evidence. Critical thinking requires more discipline.

Nobody here has given me much more than "that is the way it happened"
for a reason why a more peaceful solution could not have been
achieved. That sounds a lot like our recent (last 50 years) failed
policies when it comes to wars.
If the union had lifted the blockade of Charleston, an act of war, and
tried for other economic sanctions, they could have made a big dent in
the economy of the south in a year. It may have had them seriously
thinking about growing "slave free" cotton before 1865.
At the end of the day, slavery was popular because it was economically
advantageous but, compared to prevailing wages, it wasn't that
advantageous. If you hurt the cotton farmers in the marketplace, they
would be more willing to change.
Maybe I am just looking for 20th century solutions to 19th century
problems but you are trying to put 21st century morality on them.

On 4/19/2016 3:23 PM, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 4/19/16 2:53 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2016 12:19:54 -0400, Keyser Söze
wrote:

On 4/19/16 12:12 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2016 08:14:42 -0400, Keyser Söze
wrote:


Some years ago, PBS had such a discussion that produced the following
comments. From the PBS site:

Drew Gilpin Faust: (President, Harvard University): "Historians are
pretty united on the cause of the Civil War being slavery."

Walter Edgar (Professor of History, University of South Carolina):
"the
169 men who voted to secede first from the Union said, in their
declaration of causes, that it was ... [to] protect slavery and their
other domestic institutions ... and the men of 1860 and 1861 in other
Southern states were pretty blunt about what they were doing [also]"

Edna Medford (Professor of History, Howard University: "there was that
... Southern perspective about the war: 'We may have lost the war, but
... it was such a noble cause for which we fight' ... now, to take
that
position, you're sort of on the fringes of historiography."

Slavery was the major cause of the Civil War. And as Gary Stein put
it,
the "States' Rights" that people talk about as an alternative cause
were
first and foremost about allowing states to perpetuate the institution
of slavery.

You don't think "Howard University" might have a little bit of a
slant?
What does Cornell West say? ;-)


I don't know, as I don't pay much attention to Professor West.

I understand you skipped college and are down on institutions of higher
education.

It is ironic that the university culture is supposed to promote free
thinking and looking at alternate ideas but you folks are the most
conformist people in our society. I just tossed out an idea that there
may have been a better solution than a war that killed 2 % of the
population, destroyed the economy and caused a divisiveness that has
not really waned and your answer is " nope war is the only answer". I
guess Cheney went to the same college system as you.


Actually, universities promote "critical thinking." As a "freethinker,"
you should know it is dangerous to come to conclusions based upon
insufficient evidence. Critical thinking requires more discipline.


And the purpose of all this "critical thinking" is?

I have nothing against higher education, especially when the knowledge
or skills gained can be put to good use either for the individual or
for those in society he or she may encounter. But academia for the sake
of academia really doesn't benefit anyone at all and, in fact, is
somewhat of a selfish endeavor.

On 4/19/2016 2:53 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2016 12:19:54 -0400, Keyser Söze
wrote:

On 4/19/16 12:12 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2016 08:14:42 -0400, Keyser Söze
wrote:


Some years ago, PBS had such a discussion that produced the following
comments. From the PBS site:

Drew Gilpin Faust: (President, Harvard University): "Historians are
pretty united on the cause of the Civil War being slavery."

Walter Edgar (Professor of History, University of South Carolina): "the
169 men who voted to secede first from the Union said, in their
declaration of causes, that it was ... [to] protect slavery and their
other domestic institutions ... and the men of 1860 and 1861 in other
Southern states were pretty blunt about what they were doing [also]"

Edna Medford (Professor of History, Howard University: "there was that
... Southern perspective about the war: 'We may have lost the war, but
... it was such a noble cause for which we fight' ... now, to take that
position, you're sort of on the fringes of historiography."

Slavery was the major cause of the Civil War. And as Gary Stein put it,
the "States' Rights" that people talk about as an alternative cause were
first and foremost about allowing states to perpetuate the institution
of slavery.

You don't think "Howard University" might have a little bit of a
slant?
What does Cornell West say? ;-)


I don't know, as I don't pay much attention to Professor West.

I understand you skipped college and are down on institutions of higher
education.

It is ironic that the university culture is supposed to promote free
thinking and looking at alternate ideas but you folks are the most
conformist people in our society.


My experience in life says you just said a mouthful! :-)



I just tossed out an idea that there
may have been a better solution than a war that killed 2 % of the
population, destroyed the economy and caused a divisiveness that has
not really waned and your answer is " nope war is the only answer". I
guess Cheney went to the same college system as you.