We can't do nuttin'...
 

On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 15:34:49 -0400, Keyser Söze
wrote:

I think the purpose of education is to instill a
desire to learn, and to teach students how to use their minds, and where
to go to acquire the facts they need in order to make intelligent
decisions.

===

The part about "making intelligent decisions" seems to have escaped
you in any number of ways. Perhaps you could file for a refund of
your tuition money?

We can't do nuttin'...
 

Keyser Söze wrote:
On 10/13/15 5:48 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/13/2015 3:34 PM, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 10/13/15 12:48 PM, Califbill wrote:
Keyser Söze wrote:
On 10/13/15 11:08 AM, Califbill wrote:



Never said college and education should not be subsidized. I stated
that
for education for self enjoyment should not be.

Bilious, it's not my problem if you didn't enjoy your college
courses. I
enjoyed many, if not all, of mine. Oh, wait...was that allowed? Perhaps
you are referring to electives...electives were required, and I did
take
a couple that had only peripheral connections to my majors, and I did
enjoy them.

Education for self-enjoyment. Now there is a concept. Are you referring
to guitar lessons? Making rubber molds for dildos? I managed to work in
some courses in art history, music, and archeology. Perhaps you should
have worked in some courses in English as she is written.



I enjoyed college. Except for some ****ty professors, was great. And
electives are needed. But to have a four year+ regimen of studies, that
lead to no useful skills, is a waste of taxpayer money. Society pays
for
primary schools, so our youth can be contributing members of society.
Not
to make them good at Trivial Pursuit. Big problem in certain large
cities
is the amount of youths who forgo education and decide dealing drugs and
robbery is going to be their contribution.


I'm fairly certain you are not in charge of deciding what comprises
"useful skills. We also differ on the purpose of education. You and most
others here have the trade school concept...you get educated in order to
get and hold a job. I think the purpose of education is to instill a
desire to learn, and to teach students how to use their minds, and where
to go to acquire the facts they need in order to make intelligent
decisions.


Lovely thoughts but most people like to eat.




Oh? And somehow instilling a desire to learn, learning how to use your
mind, and learning how to acquire facts interferes with earning a living
so you can eat?

How interesting.


In your estimation it does. University is for "learning". Trade school
for real information.

We can't do nuttin'...
 

On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 11:55:20 -0400, Keyser Söze
wrote:

On 10/12/15 10:17 AM, wrote:

If you simply seek the information for your own enlightenment, it is
free.


You don't understand the college experience. It's not just "the
information," and, no, I am not referring to fraternity parties.

I understand the "experience" I did do 2 semesters (including a summer
one)
I was never in a fraternity tho, although I was at a party or two.

We can't do nuttin'...
 

On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 21:02:31 -0400, Keyser Söze
wrote:

Posit: a degree in electrical engineering is obsolete the day it is
issued. A degree in mechanical engineering, however, is not.

That is exactly the reason why IBM guys laughed at "computer science"
degrees.
One of my customers was Montgomery College and I used to stick my head
in those classes occasionally. It was more like a "computer history"
class, talking about crap, nobody cared about.
These kids were interested in getting a system analyst job and they
were not getting what they needed from the college.
OTOH I had my own "classes" with a few of the smart kids.
My information was fresh off the presses at IBM schools.

I was asked to stop when one of the kids hacked into the operating
system of the college with a little assembler language routine I was
using in a diagnostic program I wrote. (hint:, look at the STIXIT
instruction and the notation about the save file in "Supervisor and
I/O macros"). ;-)

We can't do nuttin'...
 

On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 21:06:31 -0700, Califbill billnews wrote:

Keyser Söze wrote:


Posit: a degree in electrical engineering is obsolete the day it is
issued. A degree in mechanical engineering, however, is not.




Actually mine is an Electro-mechanical discipline. And is never obsolete.
May need some continuing education, which I did. But other than faster,
and smaller, most notably is still appropriate. Actually, they big want
these days, is for old analog engineers.


Actually Harry is beyond his depth here. If your goal os a PE in
electrical engineering, the basics will still work for the rest of
your life.
Like you say, the hardware changes but the electrons stayed the same.
If you are computing heat rise in transformers or ampacity of
conductors in hostile environments, those old formulas still work,
although you can probably do the whole thing on your phone (AKA pocket
mainframe) now.

We can't do nuttin'...
 

On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 09:23:39 -0400, Keyser Söze
wrote:


Gee, Bill, I hope the taxpayers of your state didn't subsidize your
education. Why was college necessary, anyway? Couldn't you have picked
up some workbooks at the library or gotten your education in the
military? :)

I did get most of my education in the military and over the span of 30
years at IBM. I am sure I have 10 to 15 times as much classroom hours
as a guy with an MS degree.
We were typically in school at IBM for around 2-3 months a year, 8
hours a day, 5 days a week in the 60s and 70s.
It really did not slow down that much in the 80s but a lot of it was
online learning, before it had the name..
(It was Field Instructional System for us) They had the facility in
your office to avoid travel cost.
That was followed up with a couple of weeks of "hands on lab" in an
education center somewhere and some stand up lecture.

We can't do nuttin'...
 

On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:48:45 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

Turns out I would have followed the same career path and would have been
able to accomplish whatever I have in my accomplishment bucket without
the degree. It certainly helped. But, (and you may find this impossible
to understand or believe), the Navy electronic and electrical schools
covered the same technical material in a much more comprehensive way
when compared to the civilian colleges and universities where I also
took courses.

That was my experience. I took basic electricity 101 and basic
electronics 101. (Essentially DC circuits and AC circuits
respectively)
All it really did for me was allow me to get 104 out of 108 on the
ETST and allowed me to go to FT school
Once I got there, I had pretty much wrapped up everything I learned in
"college " in a couple of weeks, my coasting was over and I had to
"turn to".

We can't do nuttin'...
 

On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 08:08:02 -0700, Califbill billnews wrote:

Never said college and education should not be subsidized. I stated that
for education for self enjoyment should not be. I paid a lot more back in
to the state than they ever put out for my education. Maybe if you had
actually studied something useful, you would not have had to file
bankruptcy twice. Maybe a simple economics 101?

My navy training was totally wasted in the CG. I did get some basic
ballistics concepts that applied, if we were actually ever going to
shoot that 5" gun an anything important but the fact was, the hardware
I was learning about in FT-A school was never going to show up on a
ship I would be on.

It did get me the job at IBM tho and like Bill says, they took a lot
of tax money from me and the enterprise I was supporting so it was not
a macro economic loss for the government.

We can't do nuttin'...
 

On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 15:34:49 -0400, Keyser Söze
wrote:

I'm fairly certain you are not in charge of deciding what comprises
"useful skills. We also differ on the purpose of education. You and most
others here have the trade school concept...you get educated in order to
get and hold a job. I think the purpose of education is to instill a
desire to learn, and to teach students how to use their minds, and where
to go to acquire the facts they need in order to make intelligent
decisions.

Most "useful" skills come from things I learned on my own and
experience. I think "useful" is the ability to take care of everything
around me. (house, car, boat etc) without having to call anyone.

Things I do just for esoterica are "hobbies" like reading statutes and
SCOTUS decisions. Again it was "useful" when I was trying to buy the
house next door in a tax deed sale and later a foreclosure auction. I
did hire a real lawyer but I was a little disappointed when his title
search looked exactly like mine, his advice looked exactly like the
notes I had already made and the last straw was when I pointed out to
him a little known blurb in the Florida law that allows a mortgage to
be un enforcible if the holder does not service it for a period of
time. He had the gall to call me a day later and tell me about it,
like I had not just given him the exact statute number and line number
the day before.

I will never have a law degree but it doesn't mean I can't read the
law with a pretty good degree of understanding.

I dabble in astrophysics. I will never be Neil Degrasse Tyson but I
think I could have a decent conversation with him.

I like history but I will never be a degreed historian. That doesn't
keep me from reading about it. Perhaps without listening to lectures
that are loaded with opinion, I am actually free to have one of my
own.
At that point, who is the person with independent thought?

We can't do nuttin'...
 

On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 17:49:01 -0500, Boating All Out
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Harry ... you commented to Greg the following:

"You don't understand the college experience. It's not just "the
information," and, no, I am not referring to fraternity
parties."


Never the twain shall meet.
They are both intolerant in their own ways.
Greg will never understand Dostoyevsky, and Harry will
never understand Ayn Rand.
The big difference between them is their exposure to both.
And so it goes.

I made it through Crime and Punishment but I thought I was the one
being punished.

"Come on man, just tell the damned story"
In the end I didn't care.

We can't do nuttin'...
 

On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 18:59:01 -0400, Keyser Söze
wrote:

On 10/13/15 6:49 PM, Boating All Out wrote:
In article ,
says...

Harry ... you commented to Greg the following:

"You don't understand the college experience. It's not just "the
information," and, no, I am not referring to fraternity
parties."


Never the twain shall meet.
They are both intolerant in their own ways.
Greg will never understand Dostoyevsky, and Harry will
never understand Ayn Rand.
The big difference between them is their exposure to both.
And so it goes.


I read two of Ms. Rand's novels when I was in the 7th grade. I
understand her points and I realized she was just a bloody awful writer
and her prose was turgid, and that would be a compliment.

I tend to agree. I never really understood why people cherry pick the
libertarian jewels out of that crap and then act like she was
Shakespear.

We can't do nuttin'...
 

On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 19:55:48 -0400, Keyser Söze
wrote:


I don't know any "professional" students.

Just because you don't know many people born after the Carter
administration.

The way the current student loan scam is structured, kids have to stay
in school or they have to start paying down the loan ... but if you
are staying in school, you are racking up more principal, while that
interest is still compounding on your back.

If you can't make enough money to eat and cover that minimum loan
payment, you have to go back to school in hopes another degree will do
the trick and it generally doesn't..
I know several "kids" (30 sumpin) in that exact jam.

Crack has nothing on the student loan program. They both have the
effect that the more you take, the more you need.

Another case of,
"We are from the government and we are here to help" ;-)

We can't do nuttin'...
 

On 10/14/2015 1:12 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:48:45 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

Turns out I would have followed the same career path and would have been
able to accomplish whatever I have in my accomplishment bucket without
the degree. It certainly helped. But, (and you may find this impossible
to understand or believe), the Navy electronic and electrical schools
covered the same technical material in a much more comprehensive way
when compared to the civilian colleges and universities where I also
took courses.

That was my experience. I took basic electricity 101 and basic
electronics 101. (Essentially DC circuits and AC circuits
respectively)
All it really did for me was allow me to get 104 out of 108 on the
ETST and allowed me to go to FT school
Once I got there, I had pretty much wrapped up everything I learned in
"college " in a couple of weeks, my coasting was over and I had to
"turn to".



As I recall, "BE&E" school was a prerequisite course for several Navy
ratings including ET's, RM's, GM's, FT's and others. I was originally
designated to become a RM (Radioman). I had attended college for a
while before entering the Navy (in a liberal arts program) and I
remember that I struggled a bit with some of the math in BE&E school.
Math had never been a strong subject for me, even in high school.
Fortunately, a classmate had recently graduated from college with a math
degree before he joined the Navy and he tutored me a bit to help me with
the math.

Later, I converted to ET and was designated as a ETN ... meaning I
was to specialize in communications electronics. Another branch of ET
school was for ETR's who specialized in radar electronics. These
schools were much longer ... and whoever graduated first in class in
his/her respective rating (ETN or ETR) was allowed to go through the
other branch of ET school as well. Somehow I managed to graduate first
in class in the ETN branch and was allowed to then go through the ETR
course as well. Many of the course segments were the same for both, so
it didn't take as long to finish the ETR branch. The result was that
with additional duties at the school, I spent 2 years at Great Lakes,
just attending (and then teaching) electronics courses.

Teaching is a great way to learn, BTW.

We can't do nuttin'...
 

On Wed, 14 Oct 2015 02:54:36 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/14/2015 1:12 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:48:45 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

Turns out I would have followed the same career path and would have been
able to accomplish whatever I have in my accomplishment bucket without
the degree. It certainly helped. But, (and you may find this impossible
to understand or believe), the Navy electronic and electrical schools
covered the same technical material in a much more comprehensive way
when compared to the civilian colleges and universities where I also
took courses.

That was my experience. I took basic electricity 101 and basic
electronics 101. (Essentially DC circuits and AC circuits
respectively)
All it really did for me was allow me to get 104 out of 108 on the
ETST and allowed me to go to FT school
Once I got there, I had pretty much wrapped up everything I learned in
"college " in a couple of weeks, my coasting was over and I had to
"turn to".



As I recall, "BE&E" school was a prerequisite course for several Navy
ratings including ET's, RM's, GM's, FT's and others. I was originally
designated to become a RM (Radioman). I had attended college for a
while before entering the Navy (in a liberal arts program) and I
remember that I struggled a bit with some of the math in BE&E school.
Math had never been a strong subject for me, even in high school.
Fortunately, a classmate had recently graduated from college with a math
degree before he joined the Navy and he tutored me a bit to help me with
the math.

Later, I converted to ET and was designated as a ETN ... meaning I
was to specialize in communications electronics. Another branch of ET
school was for ETR's who specialized in radar electronics. These
schools were much longer ... and whoever graduated first in class in
his/her respective rating (ETN or ETR) was allowed to go through the
other branch of ET school as well. Somehow I managed to graduate first
in class in the ETN branch and was allowed to then go through the ETR
course as well. Many of the course segments were the same for both, so
it didn't take as long to finish the ETR branch. The result was that
with additional duties at the school, I spent 2 years at Great Lakes,
just attending (and then teaching) electronics courses.

Teaching is a great way to learn, BTW.

They wrapped up the basics in 2 weeks of FT school, including the math
but it was essentially what I had taken before I signed up (the other
courses I took were Trig , a math tune up and a required "english"
credit that I filled with a tech writing class.
It was just part of the FT school as far as we knew but I suppose it
was a pre req. In that regard it was all pre req tho. Fail one week
and you were going back to the fleet as a striker in something besides
FT.
The E5 who was barracks commander was from subs in some snipe rate and
had to ship over for 6 to get the FT class. He wasn't making it until
another coastie and I took him under our wing and helped him.
My duties got a lot easier after that ;-) We did get him through.

I agree, teaching a subject is the best way to learn it, particularly
if you are serious about answering questions.

I ended up doing very well in that school and it set the standard for
every school I have been to since. I usually ace them.

We can't do nuttin'...
 

wrote:
On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 15:34:49 -0400, Keyser Söze
wrote:

I'm fairly certain you are not in charge of deciding what comprises
"useful skills. We also differ on the purpose of education. You and most
others here have the trade school concept...you get educated in order to
get and hold a job. I think the purpose of education is to instill a
desire to learn, and to teach students how to use their minds, and where
to go to acquire the facts they need in order to make intelligent
decisions.

Most "useful" skills come from things I learned on my own and
experience. I think "useful" is the ability to take care of everything
around me. (house, car, boat etc) without having to call anyone.

Things I do just for esoterica are "hobbies" like reading statutes and
SCOTUS decisions. Again it was "useful" when I was trying to buy the
house next door in a tax deed sale and later a foreclosure auction. I
did hire a real lawyer but I was a little disappointed when his title
search looked exactly like mine, his advice looked exactly like the
notes I had already made and the last straw was when I pointed out to
him a little known blurb in the Florida law that allows a mortgage to
be un enforcible if the holder does not service it for a period of
time. He had the gall to call me a day later and tell me about it,
like I had not just given him the exact statute number and line number
the day before.

I will never have a law degree but it doesn't mean I can't read the
law with a pretty good degree of understanding.

I dabble in astrophysics. I will never be Neil Degrasse Tyson but I
think I could have a decent conversation with him.

I like history but I will never be a degreed historian. That doesn't
keep me from reading about it. Perhaps without listening to lectures
that are loaded with opinion, I am actually free to have one of my
own.
At that point, who is the person with independent thought?


I thought of Harry this morning.
http://www.gocomics.com/pearlsbeforeswine

We can't do nuttin'...
 

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/14/2015 1:12 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:48:45 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

Turns out I would have followed the same career path and would have been
able to accomplish whatever I have in my accomplishment bucket without
the degree. It certainly helped. But, (and you may find this impossible
to understand or believe), the Navy electronic and electrical schools
covered the same technical material in a much more comprehensive way
when compared to the civilian colleges and universities where I also
took courses.

That was my experience. I took basic electricity 101 and basic
electronics 101. (Essentially DC circuits and AC circuits
respectively)
All it really did for me was allow me to get 104 out of 108 on the
ETST and allowed me to go to FT school
Once I got there, I had pretty much wrapped up everything I learned in
"college " in a couple of weeks, my coasting was over and I had to
"turn to".



As I recall, "BE&E" school was a prerequisite course for several Navy
ratings including ET's, RM's, GM's, FT's and others. I was originally
designated to become a RM (Radioman). I had attended college for a
while before entering the Navy (in a liberal arts program) and I
remember that I struggled a bit with some of the math in BE&E school.
Math had never been a strong subject for me, even in high school.
Fortunately, a classmate had recently graduated from college with a math
degree before he joined the Navy and he tutored me a bit to help me with
the math.

Later, I converted to ET and was designated as a ETN ... meaning I
was to specialize in communications electronics. Another branch of ET
school was for ETR's who specialized in radar electronics. These
schools were much longer ... and whoever graduated first in class in
his/her respective rating (ETN or ETR) was allowed to go through the
other branch of ET school as well. Somehow I managed to graduate first
in class in the ETN branch and was allowed to then go through the ETR
course as well. Many of the course segments were the same for both, so
it didn't take as long to finish the ETR branch. The result was that
with additional duties at the school, I spent 2 years at Great Lakes,
just attending (and then teaching) electronics courses.

Teaching is a great way to learn, BTW.






I was sent a draft notice while in NCR 315 Computer school. 36 weeks on
the whole system. 40 hour weeks. That is equivalent to maybe 80 semester
units. I joined the SF reserve and was sent to a 36 week school for ground
nav aids. ils, tacan, loran, etc. since I already had a background in
electronics, the AF allowed 4 of us to challenge the classes. A week later
we had cut 10 weeks off the course. 1/2 the course was basic electronics,
and 1/2 was on the equipment. Could not skip on the equipment side. Ended
up fixing radar units on transports during my reserve duty. I learned a
lot more electronics in NCR school than in my degree courses. As Greg
says, we got lots of training from our employers.

We can't do nuttin'...
 

On Wed, 14 Oct 2015 10:03:57 -0700, Califbill billnews wrote:

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/14/2015 1:12 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:48:45 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

Turns out I would have followed the same career path and would have been
able to accomplish whatever I have in my accomplishment bucket without
the degree. It certainly helped. But, (and you may find this impossible
to understand or believe), the Navy electronic and electrical schools
covered the same technical material in a much more comprehensive way
when compared to the civilian colleges and universities where I also
took courses.

That was my experience. I took basic electricity 101 and basic
electronics 101. (Essentially DC circuits and AC circuits
respectively)
All it really did for me was allow me to get 104 out of 108 on the
ETST and allowed me to go to FT school
Once I got there, I had pretty much wrapped up everything I learned in
"college " in a couple of weeks, my coasting was over and I had to
"turn to".



As I recall, "BE&E" school was a prerequisite course for several Navy
ratings including ET's, RM's, GM's, FT's and others. I was originally
designated to become a RM (Radioman). I had attended college for a
while before entering the Navy (in a liberal arts program) and I
remember that I struggled a bit with some of the math in BE&E school.
Math had never been a strong subject for me, even in high school.
Fortunately, a classmate had recently graduated from college with a math
degree before he joined the Navy and he tutored me a bit to help me with
the math.

Later, I converted to ET and was designated as a ETN ... meaning I
was to specialize in communications electronics. Another branch of ET
school was for ETR's who specialized in radar electronics. These
schools were much longer ... and whoever graduated first in class in
his/her respective rating (ETN or ETR) was allowed to go through the
other branch of ET school as well. Somehow I managed to graduate first
in class in the ETN branch and was allowed to then go through the ETR
course as well. Many of the course segments were the same for both, so
it didn't take as long to finish the ETR branch. The result was that
with additional duties at the school, I spent 2 years at Great Lakes,
just attending (and then teaching) electronics courses.

Teaching is a great way to learn, BTW.






I was sent a draft notice while in NCR 315 Computer school. 36 weeks on
the whole system. 40 hour weeks. That is equivalent to maybe 80 semester
units. I joined the SF reserve and was sent to a 36 week school for ground
nav aids. ils, tacan, loran, etc. since I already had a background in
electronics, the AF allowed 4 of us to challenge the classes. A week later
we had cut 10 weeks off the course. 1/2 the course was basic electronics,
and 1/2 was on the equipment. Could not skip on the equipment side. Ended
up fixing radar units on transports during my reserve duty. I learned a
lot more electronics in NCR school than in my degree courses. As Greg
says, we got lots of training from our employers.

My best education was after the machines got to the point that they
didn't break and pretty mich fixed themselves when they did. We were
moving to "services". I did a contract class that was a pretty good
primer into contract law. We had a great class about telling the phone
company that they had to do their job. No more of an installer
repairman responding to a data call, pulling out his butt set and
saying "Bob how does the line sound on your end". We had better test
equipment than they did. That also covered the various transmission
protocols and what actually happened on the line side of the modem.
It actually made the phone company get better. That morphed into
"connectivity" the school I went to that got me BICSI certified (data
cabling)
Then I went in an entirely different direction with Installation
Planning, the design of computer rooms (Electrical HVAC and physical
layout). There was a lot more attached to that but the biggest one
here was lightning protection.
That ended up being mostly self taught since we were on the leading
edge of that science/art. Practice did not actually have much to do
with the theory the engineers were bringing to the table. The UCF
knew everything there was to know about attracting lightning and what
was going on in a strike but they didn't understand much about
preventing damage to the equipment.
I spent a lot of time with the guys at State Farm in Winter Haven and
they were actually working on this from the equipment side. We
expanded their findings in Ft Myers and made our lightning calls drop
to just about zero.