On 10/3/2015 8:36 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 14:20:18 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:



We were talking about "illegal" possession. If a state has no permit
requirements to own a firearm, then it isn't illegal to have one.


If the gun was purchased legally by a legally qualified buyer, why
should it be illegal to own? You are talking about making it illegal,
ex post facto.
That is yet another constitutional violation.



Man, has this discussion gone off topic. Maybe my fault for not being
more precise in what I've been yapping about.

To answer your question (above) ... in some states ... including mine
.... you cannot legally purchase, own or have in your possession a gun
*unless* you have a state issued permit to own a firearm. Nothing to
do with federal law.

If you own or have in your possession a firearm but do *not* have a
state issued permit, you are subject to arrest, jail
and/or fine.

Is that clear enough?

I suppose the next question is, "well how does law enforcement know you
have a gun but no permit".

Doesn't matter. It's still illegal in some states. But, suppose you
decide to go to a firing range to practice and you get pulled over for
some traffic violation. The cop notices the gun case you have your gun
stored in and asks if you have any guns or weapons in the car. You
answer honestly and he runs a check to see if you have a permit for it.
If you don't ... you are subject to arrest.

A couple of years ago I was driving a old car that I had just purchased
that needed brakes. I was on my way to the guitar shop and as I
approached an intersection the light turned yellow. One of those
cases where you have to make a quick decision to stop or go through it.
Rather than brake hard with grinding brakes and because the
intersection was otherwise clear, I proceeded through it.... right in
front of a MA state trooper who must have just graduated from the
academy. Still had pimples. He pulled me over. First time in almost
40 years that I had been stopped for a moving traffic violation.

I was carrying that day because I had quite a bit of cash on me for the
shop. Put both of my hands on the top section of the steering wheel
as recommended by gun safety instructors and the NRA.

He must have noticed that because his first question was, "Do you have
any guns or weapons". Told him yes, I had a Walther pistol in a holster
on my right hip and that I was licensed for concealed carry. He ran a
check on me from his cruiser and all was fine ... except the damn $100
ticket for failure to stop.

Now, if I had the gun on me but no state license, I would have been
arrested.

That's my point.

On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 21:17:39 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/3/2015 8:36 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 14:20:18 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:



We were talking about "illegal" possession. If a state has no permit
requirements to own a firearm, then it isn't illegal to have one.


If the gun was purchased legally by a legally qualified buyer, why
should it be illegal to own? You are talking about making it illegal,
ex post facto.
That is yet another constitutional violation.



Man, has this discussion gone off topic. Maybe my fault for not being
more precise in what I've been yapping about.

Yes. Your original statement left a big loophole.

To answer your question (above) ... in some states ... including mine
... you cannot legally purchase, own or have in your possession a gun
*unless* you have a state issued permit to own a firearm. Nothing to
do with federal law.

If you own or have in your possession a firearm but do *not* have a
state issued permit, you are subject to arrest, jail
and/or fine.

Is that clear enough?

Very. That doesn't mean agreement with your state.

I suppose the next question is, "well how does law enforcement know you
have a gun but no permit".

Doesn't matter. It's still illegal in some states. But, suppose you
decide to go to a firing range to practice and you get pulled over for
some traffic violation. The cop notices the gun case you have your gun
stored in and asks if you have any guns or weapons in the car. You
answer honestly and he runs a check to see if you have a permit for it.
If you don't ... you are subject to arrest.

A good reason to put guns in the trunk.

A couple of years ago I was driving a old car that I had just purchased
that needed brakes. I was on my way to the guitar shop and as I
approached an intersection the light turned yellow. One of those
cases where you have to make a quick decision to stop or go through it.
Rather than brake hard with grinding brakes and because the
intersection was otherwise clear, I proceeded through it.... right in
front of a MA state trooper who must have just graduated from the
academy. Still had pimples. He pulled me over. First time in almost
40 years that I had been stopped for a moving traffic violation.

I was carrying that day because I had quite a bit of cash on me for the
shop. Put both of my hands on the top section of the steering wheel
as recommended by gun safety instructors and the NRA.

He must have noticed that because his first question was, "Do you have
any guns or weapons". Told him yes, I had a Walther pistol in a holster
on my right hip and that I was licensed for concealed carry. He ran a
check on me from his cruiser and all was fine ... except the damn $100
ticket for failure to stop.

Now, if I had the gun on me but no state license, I would have been
arrested.

That's my point.

Again, your original statement was, "...but the majority of the states don't have
any laws to enforce."

The story above doesn't support that point.

If I am caught carrying a concealed weapon in Virginia, and I don't have a permit,
then I am in violation of the law. I'm guessing that's the law in most states.
--

Ban idiots, not guns!

On 10/4/2015 8:52 AM, John H. wrote:
On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 21:17:39 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/3/2015 8:36 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 14:20:18 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:



We were talking about "illegal" possession. If a state has no permit
requirements to own a firearm, then it isn't illegal to have one.


If the gun was purchased legally by a legally qualified buyer, why
should it be illegal to own? You are talking about making it illegal,
ex post facto.
That is yet another constitutional violation.



Man, has this discussion gone off topic. Maybe my fault for not being
more precise in what I've been yapping about.

Yes. Your original statement left a big loophole.

To answer your question (above) ... in some states ... including mine
... you cannot legally purchase, own or have in your possession a gun
*unless* you have a state issued permit to own a firearm. Nothing to
do with federal law.

If you own or have in your possession a firearm but do *not* have a
state issued permit, you are subject to arrest, jail
and/or fine.

Is that clear enough?

Very. That doesn't mean agreement with your state.

I suppose the next question is, "well how does law enforcement know you
have a gun but no permit".

Doesn't matter. It's still illegal in some states. But, suppose you
decide to go to a firing range to practice and you get pulled over for
some traffic violation. The cop notices the gun case you have your gun
stored in and asks if you have any guns or weapons in the car. You
answer honestly and he runs a check to see if you have a permit for it.
If you don't ... you are subject to arrest.

A good reason to put guns in the trunk.

A couple of years ago I was driving a old car that I had just purchased
that needed brakes. I was on my way to the guitar shop and as I
approached an intersection the light turned yellow. One of those
cases where you have to make a quick decision to stop or go through it.
Rather than brake hard with grinding brakes and because the
intersection was otherwise clear, I proceeded through it.... right in
front of a MA state trooper who must have just graduated from the
academy. Still had pimples. He pulled me over. First time in almost
40 years that I had been stopped for a moving traffic violation.

I was carrying that day because I had quite a bit of cash on me for the
shop. Put both of my hands on the top section of the steering wheel
as recommended by gun safety instructors and the NRA.

He must have noticed that because his first question was, "Do you have
any guns or weapons". Told him yes, I had a Walther pistol in a holster
on my right hip and that I was licensed for concealed carry. He ran a
check on me from his cruiser and all was fine ... except the damn $100
ticket for failure to stop.

Now, if I had the gun on me but no state license, I would have been
arrested.

That's my point.

Again, your original statement was, "...but the majority of the states don't have
any laws to enforce."

The story above doesn't support that point.

If I am caught carrying a concealed weapon in Virginia, and I don't have a permit,
then I am in violation of the law. I'm guessing that's the law in most states.
--

Ban idiots, not guns!


Concealed carry is a different ballgame. Wiki has a comprehensive list
of the laws for all 50 states. Most states require a permit for
concealed carry. It appears that only the District of Columbia,
Illinois, Massachusetts and New York are currently the only states that
require a permit or license to own a gun at all. Nothing to do with
concealed carry. New York requires it for handguns only. DC, MA and IL
require a permit, license or FOID for both handguns and long guns.

Note that a permit to purchase is different than a license to own:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_by_state

On Sun, 04 Oct 2015 08:52:58 -0400, John H.
wrote:

If I am caught carrying a concealed weapon in Virginia, and I don't have a permit,
then I am in violation of the law. I'm guessing that's the law in most states.

===

There's a lot of ambiguity about what constitutes a concealed weapon.
If you have one in your vehicle it's best to have a CCW permit and
remove all doubt.

wrote:
On Sun, 04 Oct 2015 08:52:58 -0400, John H.
wrote:

If I am caught carrying a concealed weapon in Virginia, and I don't have a permit,
then I am in violation of the law. I'm guessing that's the law in most states.

===

There's a lot of ambiguity about what constitutes a concealed weapon.
If you have one in your vehicle it's best to have a CCW permit and
remove all doubt.


In California, you can have the firearm in the car, without a permit, if it
is not loaded and is in a locked case. And not in a school zone. Use to
have too be locked in the trunk, but that was tossed as lots of vehicles
have no trunk.

On Sun, 04 Oct 2015 12:49:25 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 04 Oct 2015 08:52:58 -0400, John H.
wrote:

If I am caught carrying a concealed weapon in Virginia, and I don't have a permit,
then I am in violation of the law. I'm guessing that's the law in most states.

===

There's a lot of ambiguity about what constitutes a concealed weapon.
If you have one in your vehicle it's best to have a CCW permit and
remove all doubt.

I should have said 'on my person'.

I was just trying to make the point that most states *do* have some laws.

--

Ban idiots, not guns!

On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 21:17:39 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/3/2015 8:36 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 14:20:18 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:



We were talking about "illegal" possession. If a state has no permit
requirements to own a firearm, then it isn't illegal to have one.


If the gun was purchased legally by a legally qualified buyer, why
should it be illegal to own? You are talking about making it illegal,
ex post facto.
That is yet another constitutional violation.



Man, has this discussion gone off topic. Maybe my fault for not being
more precise in what I've been yapping about.

To answer your question (above) ... in some states ... including mine
... you cannot legally purchase, own or have in your possession a gun
*unless* you have a state issued permit to own a firearm. Nothing to
do with federal law.

If you own or have in your possession a firearm but do *not* have a
state issued permit, you are subject to arrest, jail
and/or fine.

Is that clear enough?

You can make that case if the gun was purchased after the permit law
was passed.
You are talking about making an ex post facto law applying to
something that was purchased before the law was passed.

On 10/4/2015 12:51 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 21:17:39 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/3/2015 8:36 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 14:20:18 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:



We were talking about "illegal" possession. If a state has no permit
requirements to own a firearm, then it isn't illegal to have one.


If the gun was purchased legally by a legally qualified buyer, why
should it be illegal to own? You are talking about making it illegal,
ex post facto.
That is yet another constitutional violation.



Man, has this discussion gone off topic. Maybe my fault for not being
more precise in what I've been yapping about.

To answer your question (above) ... in some states ... including mine
... you cannot legally purchase, own or have in your possession a gun
*unless* you have a state issued permit to own a firearm. Nothing to
do with federal law.

If you own or have in your possession a firearm but do *not* have a
state issued permit, you are subject to arrest, jail
and/or fine.

Is that clear enough?



You can make that case if the gun was purchased after the permit law
was passed.
You are talking about making an ex post facto law applying to
something that was purchased before the law was passed.


To the best of my knowledge and based on conversations with other MA gun
owners, if you are old enough to have obtained a firearm before the
permit to own law took effect (1998, I think), you are still required
to obtain a permit to own. You are given some period of time to do so.
I've read also that if you inherit a firearm and do not
have a permit to own, you have a 60 grace period to get the permit.

On Sun, 4 Oct 2015 14:44:12 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2015 12:51 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 21:17:39 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/3/2015 8:36 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 14:20:18 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:



We were talking about "illegal" possession. If a state has no permit
requirements to own a firearm, then it isn't illegal to have one.


If the gun was purchased legally by a legally qualified buyer, why
should it be illegal to own? You are talking about making it illegal,
ex post facto.
That is yet another constitutional violation.



Man, has this discussion gone off topic. Maybe my fault for not being
more precise in what I've been yapping about.

To answer your question (above) ... in some states ... including mine
... you cannot legally purchase, own or have in your possession a gun
*unless* you have a state issued permit to own a firearm. Nothing to
do with federal law.

If you own or have in your possession a firearm but do *not* have a
state issued permit, you are subject to arrest, jail
and/or fine.

Is that clear enough?



You can make that case if the gun was purchased after the permit law
was passed.
You are talking about making an ex post facto law applying to
something that was purchased before the law was passed.


To the best of my knowledge and based on conversations with other MA gun
owners, if you are old enough to have obtained a firearm before the
permit to own law took effect (1998, I think), you are still required
to obtain a permit to own. You are given some period of time to do so.
I've read also that if you inherit a firearm and do not
have a permit to own, you have a 60 grace period to get the permit.



I suppose if that is what you voted for and you are OK with it ...
good for you. I just do not think large areas of the country would go
for it and plenty of states would simply opt out.