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Keyser Söze October 4th 15 02:26 PM

Trump Seals His Fate
 
On 10/4/15 9:03 AM, True North wrote:
Luddite says.

".OMG. Tell you what Bill. Don't worry about it. In your state you are
*not* required to be licensed to purchase or own a gun."


All this tells me that nothing will improve down there until the Federal Gov't makes and enforces all gun regulations. Too many cowboy states doing too little.



We have an insane patchwork of state-by-state firearms laws.

In Maryland, where I live, I can directly transfer or buy a
non-regulated long rifle or shotgun to or from another individual
without even an instant background check, and the transfer is
instantaneous. But if I buy a rifle from a dealer, he runs the instant
background check and then hands over the firearm.

Handguns are regulated. That means in this state you have to go through
a background check and wait seven days for the state police to give its
approval.

There's no rational reason for the difference in transferring long guns
and handguns.

In Virginia, it is even more bizarre. When I sold a SIG semi-auto pistol
I owned to a Virginia buyer, I called the state police to find out what
the procedure was. For two Virginia residents, there was no
procedure...just sell it and hand it over, no checks involved. But I was
out of state, and even at that, the state police told me they really
didn't care, since the state was awash in handgun transfers. Well, I
wanted an official paper trail, so I arranged for a Virginia FFL to
handle the transfer for a few bucks.

At Virginia gunshows, there are individuals walking around carrying
firearms they will sell to you, on an individual to individual basis. No
instant background check, no waiting period. That's part of the gunshow
loophole that Johnnymop Herring says doesn't exist but, of course, he
doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground.


Mr. Luddite October 4th 15 02:41 PM

Trump Seals His Fate
 
On 10/4/2015 8:52 AM, John H. wrote:
On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 21:17:39 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/3/2015 8:36 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 14:20:18 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:



We were talking about "illegal" possession. If a state has no permit
requirements to own a firearm, then it isn't illegal to have one.


If the gun was purchased legally by a legally qualified buyer, why
should it be illegal to own? You are talking about making it illegal,
ex post facto.
That is yet another constitutional violation.



Man, has this discussion gone off topic. Maybe my fault for not being
more precise in what I've been yapping about.


Yes. Your original statement left a big loophole.

To answer your question (above) ... in some states ... including mine
... you cannot legally purchase, own or have in your possession a gun
*unless* you have a state issued permit to own a firearm. Nothing to
do with federal law.

If you own or have in your possession a firearm but do *not* have a
state issued permit, you are subject to arrest, jail
and/or fine.

Is that clear enough?


Very. That doesn't mean agreement with your state.

I suppose the next question is, "well how does law enforcement know you
have a gun but no permit".

Doesn't matter. It's still illegal in some states. But, suppose you
decide to go to a firing range to practice and you get pulled over for
some traffic violation. The cop notices the gun case you have your gun
stored in and asks if you have any guns or weapons in the car. You
answer honestly and he runs a check to see if you have a permit for it.
If you don't ... you are subject to arrest.


A good reason to put guns in the trunk.

A couple of years ago I was driving a old car that I had just purchased
that needed brakes. I was on my way to the guitar shop and as I
approached an intersection the light turned yellow. One of those
cases where you have to make a quick decision to stop or go through it.
Rather than brake hard with grinding brakes and because the
intersection was otherwise clear, I proceeded through it.... right in
front of a MA state trooper who must have just graduated from the
academy. Still had pimples. He pulled me over. First time in almost
40 years that I had been stopped for a moving traffic violation.

I was carrying that day because I had quite a bit of cash on me for the
shop. Put both of my hands on the top section of the steering wheel
as recommended by gun safety instructors and the NRA.

He must have noticed that because his first question was, "Do you have
any guns or weapons". Told him yes, I had a Walther pistol in a holster
on my right hip and that I was licensed for concealed carry. He ran a
check on me from his cruiser and all was fine ... except the damn $100
ticket for failure to stop.

Now, if I had the gun on me but no state license, I would have been
arrested.

That's my point.


Again, your original statement was, "...but the majority of the states don't have
any laws to enforce."

The story above doesn't support that point.

If I am caught carrying a concealed weapon in Virginia, and I don't have a permit,
then I am in violation of the law. I'm guessing that's the law in most states.
--

Ban idiots, not guns!


Concealed carry is a different ballgame. Wiki has a comprehensive list
of the laws for all 50 states. Most states require a permit for
concealed carry. It appears that only the District of Columbia,
Illinois, Massachusetts and New York are currently the only states that
require a permit or license to own a gun at all. Nothing to do with
concealed carry. New York requires it for handguns only. DC, MA and IL
require a permit, license or FOID for both handguns and long guns.

Note that a permit to purchase is different than a license to own:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_by_state


Mr. Luddite October 4th 15 02:44 PM

Trump Seals His Fate
 
On 10/4/2015 8:58 AM, John H. wrote:
On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 21:21:32 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/3/2015 8:43 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 15:24:42 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/3/2015 2:29 PM,
wrote:
On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 12:50:11 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

Again, the idea of a license/permit requirement everywhere (all states)
won't sit well with many people, especially since a background check is
usually required to obtain one in the states in which they are required.



The background check for guns is a federal law. (Brady)


It's imposed on federally licensed dealers only. Does not apply to
private sales.



It is still illegal to conduct a private sale across state lines.
When the CNN crew went to Tennessee and South Carolina and bought
guns, they broke federal laws, on camera. When they took them across
state lines they broke another federal law.
The Tennessee guns crossed 3 state lines and the South Carolina gun
crossed one.
There were at least a half dozen counts at 5 years each. Why aren't
they doing 30 years?



The people that sold them the guns also violated federal law. That was
the point of the whole documentary ... to show how easy it is to
purchase guns with no records kept.

For all we know, CNN may have informed authorities as to what they were
doing beforehand. IIRC, the purchased guns were turned in to authorities.




Well, there you go.

What would more laws have done? If CNN had *really* wanted to help the problem, they
would have called the local cops immediately.


John, it was a documentary to demonstrate to the public how easy it is
to purchase firearms with no records kept. CNN was not playing cop
and, as I said, they turned the purchased guns over to law enforcement.




Mr. Luddite October 4th 15 02:56 PM

Trump Seals His Fate
 
On 10/4/2015 9:03 AM, True North wrote:
Luddite says.

".OMG. Tell you what Bill. Don't worry about it. In your state you are
*not* required to be licensed to purchase or own a gun."


All this tells me that nothing will improve down there until the Federal Gov't makes and enforces all gun regulations. Too many cowboy states doing too little.



The foundation of our form of government emphasizes state rights, not
the federal government and for the most part it works well. Times
change though and sometimes a unified approach to laws is necessary or
at least desirable. I think health care is one and gun laws is another.
Back in the 1800's nobody was concerned about traveling from state to
state packing a gun. Now-a-days, due to the myriad state laws that
govern guns and spotty reciprocal agreements what is legal to do in your
state may toss you in jail in the next state. It's impossible for me to
legally travel from MA to South Carolina or Florida with a gun in my
car. Federal law says I can but several state laws between here and
there say I can't.

This is one of the situations where I think a federal law should apply
to unify the state laws.


John H.[_5_] October 4th 15 03:22 PM

Trump Seals His Fate
 
On Sun, 4 Oct 2015 09:44:10 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/4/2015 8:58 AM, John H. wrote:
On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 21:21:32 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/3/2015 8:43 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 15:24:42 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/3/2015 2:29 PM,
wrote:
On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 12:50:11 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

Again, the idea of a license/permit requirement everywhere (all states)
won't sit well with many people, especially since a background check is
usually required to obtain one in the states in which they are required.



The background check for guns is a federal law. (Brady)


It's imposed on federally licensed dealers only. Does not apply to
private sales.



It is still illegal to conduct a private sale across state lines.
When the CNN crew went to Tennessee and South Carolina and bought
guns, they broke federal laws, on camera. When they took them across
state lines they broke another federal law.
The Tennessee guns crossed 3 state lines and the South Carolina gun
crossed one.
There were at least a half dozen counts at 5 years each. Why aren't
they doing 30 years?



The people that sold them the guns also violated federal law. That was
the point of the whole documentary ... to show how easy it is to
purchase guns with no records kept.

For all we know, CNN may have informed authorities as to what they were
doing beforehand. IIRC, the purchased guns were turned in to authorities.




Well, there you go.

What would more laws have done? If CNN had *really* wanted to help the problem, they
would have called the local cops immediately.


John, it was a documentary to demonstrate to the public how easy it is
to purchase firearms with no records kept. CNN was not playing cop
and, as I said, they turned the purchased guns over to law enforcement.


And my point is that the lack of enforcement of the existing laws, which both CNN and
the sellers broke, is the damn problem. Why are more laws needed if they're not
enforced?

If I were in Massachusetts with large capacity magazines for my semi-auto AR-15 all
in the trunk, I'd be breaking MA laws (unless my CWP sufficed). How would your laws
have prevented me from using that AR-15 with the 100-round drum magazine to shoot a
bunch of folks?
--

Ban idiots, not guns!

John H.[_5_] October 4th 15 03:24 PM

Trump Seals His Fate
 
On Sun, 4 Oct 2015 09:56:53 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/4/2015 9:03 AM, True North wrote:
Luddite says.

".OMG. Tell you what Bill. Don't worry about it. In your state you are
*not* required to be licensed to purchase or own a gun."


All this tells me that nothing will improve down there until the Federal Gov't makes and enforces all gun regulations. Too many cowboy states doing too little.



The foundation of our form of government emphasizes state rights, not
the federal government and for the most part it works well. Times
change though and sometimes a unified approach to laws is necessary or
at least desirable. I think health care is one and gun laws is another.
Back in the 1800's nobody was concerned about traveling from state to
state packing a gun. Now-a-days, due to the myriad state laws that
govern guns and spotty reciprocal agreements what is legal to do in your
state may toss you in jail in the next state. It's impossible for me to
legally travel from MA to South Carolina or Florida with a gun in my
car. Federal law says I can but several state laws between here and
there say I can't.

This is one of the situations where I think a federal law should apply
to unify the state laws.


Maybe a solution would be to mandate the enforcement of federal law at the state
level.

Oh wait, then the 'sanctuary cities' would be out of business.
--

Ban idiots, not guns!

Mr. Luddite October 4th 15 03:51 PM

Trump Seals His Fate
 
On 10/4/2015 10:22 AM, John H. wrote:
On Sun, 4 Oct 2015 09:44:10 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/4/2015 8:58 AM, John H. wrote:
On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 21:21:32 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/3/2015 8:43 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 15:24:42 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/3/2015 2:29 PM,
wrote:
On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 12:50:11 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

Again, the idea of a license/permit requirement everywhere (all states)
won't sit well with many people, especially since a background check is
usually required to obtain one in the states in which they are required.



The background check for guns is a federal law. (Brady)


It's imposed on federally licensed dealers only. Does not apply to
private sales.



It is still illegal to conduct a private sale across state lines.
When the CNN crew went to Tennessee and South Carolina and bought
guns, they broke federal laws, on camera. When they took them across
state lines they broke another federal law.
The Tennessee guns crossed 3 state lines and the South Carolina gun
crossed one.
There were at least a half dozen counts at 5 years each. Why aren't
they doing 30 years?



The people that sold them the guns also violated federal law. That was
the point of the whole documentary ... to show how easy it is to
purchase guns with no records kept.

For all we know, CNN may have informed authorities as to what they were
doing beforehand. IIRC, the purchased guns were turned in to authorities.




Well, there you go.

What would more laws have done? If CNN had *really* wanted to help the problem, they
would have called the local cops immediately.


John, it was a documentary to demonstrate to the public how easy it is
to purchase firearms with no records kept. CNN was not playing cop
and, as I said, they turned the purchased guns over to law enforcement.


And my point is that the lack of enforcement of the existing laws, which both CNN and
the sellers broke, is the damn problem. Why are more laws needed if they're not
enforced?

If I were in Massachusetts with large capacity magazines for my semi-auto AR-15 all
in the trunk, I'd be breaking MA laws (unless my CWP sufficed). How would your laws
have prevented me from using that AR-15 with the 100-round drum magazine to shoot a
bunch of folks?



That's what is so wacky about some of the state gun laws.
For example, my "Class A" permit in Massachusetts allows just about
anything other than machine guns. Concealed carry and large capacity
magazines for both handguns and rifles are included with this permit.
However, a different MA law does not allow large capacity magazines for
anything. Magazines are limited to 10 rounds, max. So, what's the point
in having a permit that makes it legal to have a large capacity magazine
if the state won't allow you to have one? It's stupid.

What is needed is unified gun laws at the federal level. There's no
rational reason in the world why anyone needs a 100-round drum magazine
in this day and age. Ban them and their manufacture for gun hobbyist
everywhere.

Sorry to give you morning heartburn. :-)






Mr. Luddite October 4th 15 03:54 PM

Trump Seals His Fate
 
On 10/4/2015 10:24 AM, John H. wrote:
On Sun, 4 Oct 2015 09:56:53 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/4/2015 9:03 AM, True North wrote:
Luddite says.

".OMG. Tell you what Bill. Don't worry about it. In your state you are
*not* required to be licensed to purchase or own a gun."


All this tells me that nothing will improve down there until the Federal Gov't makes and enforces all gun regulations. Too many cowboy states doing too little.



The foundation of our form of government emphasizes state rights, not
the federal government and for the most part it works well. Times
change though and sometimes a unified approach to laws is necessary or
at least desirable. I think health care is one and gun laws is another.
Back in the 1800's nobody was concerned about traveling from state to
state packing a gun. Now-a-days, due to the myriad state laws that
govern guns and spotty reciprocal agreements what is legal to do in your
state may toss you in jail in the next state. It's impossible for me to
legally travel from MA to South Carolina or Florida with a gun in my
car. Federal law says I can but several state laws between here and
there say I can't.

This is one of the situations where I think a federal law should apply
to unify the state laws.



Maybe a solution would be to mandate the enforcement of federal law at the state
level.


Ah, so maybe you are open to a unified federal law that governs all
states. We'll make a liberal out of you yet! :-)




John H.[_5_] October 4th 15 05:02 PM

Trump Seals His Fate
 
On Sun, 4 Oct 2015 10:51:24 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/4/2015 10:22 AM, John H. wrote:
On Sun, 4 Oct 2015 09:44:10 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/4/2015 8:58 AM, John H. wrote:
On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 21:21:32 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/3/2015 8:43 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 15:24:42 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/3/2015 2:29 PM,
wrote:
On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 12:50:11 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

Again, the idea of a license/permit requirement everywhere (all states)
won't sit well with many people, especially since a background check is
usually required to obtain one in the states in which they are required.



The background check for guns is a federal law. (Brady)


It's imposed on federally licensed dealers only. Does not apply to
private sales.



It is still illegal to conduct a private sale across state lines.
When the CNN crew went to Tennessee and South Carolina and bought
guns, they broke federal laws, on camera. When they took them across
state lines they broke another federal law.
The Tennessee guns crossed 3 state lines and the South Carolina gun
crossed one.
There were at least a half dozen counts at 5 years each. Why aren't
they doing 30 years?



The people that sold them the guns also violated federal law. That was
the point of the whole documentary ... to show how easy it is to
purchase guns with no records kept.

For all we know, CNN may have informed authorities as to what they were
doing beforehand. IIRC, the purchased guns were turned in to authorities.




Well, there you go.

What would more laws have done? If CNN had *really* wanted to help the problem, they
would have called the local cops immediately.

John, it was a documentary to demonstrate to the public how easy it is
to purchase firearms with no records kept. CNN was not playing cop
and, as I said, they turned the purchased guns over to law enforcement.


And my point is that the lack of enforcement of the existing laws, which both CNN and
the sellers broke, is the damn problem. Why are more laws needed if they're not
enforced?

If I were in Massachusetts with large capacity magazines for my semi-auto AR-15 all
in the trunk, I'd be breaking MA laws (unless my CWP sufficed). How would your laws
have prevented me from using that AR-15 with the 100-round drum magazine to shoot a
bunch of folks?



That's what is so wacky about some of the state gun laws.
For example, my "Class A" permit in Massachusetts allows just about
anything other than machine guns. Concealed carry and large capacity
magazines for both handguns and rifles are included with this permit.
However, a different MA law does not allow large capacity magazines for
anything. Magazines are limited to 10 rounds, max. So, what's the point
in having a permit that makes it legal to have a large capacity magazine
if the state won't allow you to have one? It's stupid.

What is needed is unified gun laws at the federal level. There's no
rational reason in the world why anyone needs a 100-round drum magazine
in this day and age. Ban them and their manufacture for gun hobbyist
everywhere.

Sorry to give you morning heartburn. :-)


Unified laws at the federal level already exist. States are not required to enforce
federal laws (and therefore 'sanctuary cities'). *That* is what we should change.
--

Ban idiots, not guns!

John H.[_5_] October 4th 15 05:05 PM

Trump Seals His Fate
 
On Sun, 4 Oct 2015 10:54:53 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/4/2015 10:24 AM, John H. wrote:
On Sun, 4 Oct 2015 09:56:53 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/4/2015 9:03 AM, True North wrote:
Luddite says.

".OMG. Tell you what Bill. Don't worry about it. In your state you are
*not* required to be licensed to purchase or own a gun."


All this tells me that nothing will improve down there until the Federal Gov't makes and enforces all gun regulations. Too many cowboy states doing too little.



The foundation of our form of government emphasizes state rights, not
the federal government and for the most part it works well. Times
change though and sometimes a unified approach to laws is necessary or
at least desirable. I think health care is one and gun laws is another.
Back in the 1800's nobody was concerned about traveling from state to
state packing a gun. Now-a-days, due to the myriad state laws that
govern guns and spotty reciprocal agreements what is legal to do in your
state may toss you in jail in the next state. It's impossible for me to
legally travel from MA to South Carolina or Florida with a gun in my
car. Federal law says I can but several state laws between here and
there say I can't.

This is one of the situations where I think a federal law should apply
to unify the state laws.



Maybe a solution would be to mandate the enforcement of federal law at the state
level.


Ah, so maybe you are open to a unified federal law that governs all
states. We'll make a liberal out of you yet! :-)


If the law is there, it should be enforced or discarded.
--

Ban idiots, not guns!


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