"Mr. Luddite" wrote:
So now I have questions.

The guy who was killed in New York was resisting. May not have been
physical, but certainly was verbal. He was not cooperating with or
obeying the commands of the police.

For that he could be found guilty of resisting arrest.

Different issue:

One of the cops applied a choke hold. The medical examiner's report
indicated that it contributed to Garner's death which was determined to be a homicide.

A choke hold in NY is not permitted under any circumstances per NYPD
policy. It is considered to be excessive force.

Questions:

Is the choke therefore against the law?

If so, didn't the cop break the law?

If so, the law is black or white. You either break it or you don't.

If the cop broke the law how can he be found to be not accountable for a homicide?


Not trying to be cute here. I don't know the answers to these questions.

The choke hold is not against the law. It is against police regulations.
Big difference. I think the fact he layed on the ground for 7 minutes
before CPR was applied should lead to a possible manslaughter charge
against all the cops there. They said he stated he could not breath. That
seems odd. As how could you. Once things when you could not breath? There
is a huge difference between the two cases. One was physically attacking
the cop. The 2nd case was a verbal attack.

On 12/3/2014 10:39 PM, KC wrote:
On 12/3/2014 10:28 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 22:07:40 -0500, KC wrote:

On 12/3/2014 10:03 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 20:36:11 -0500, KC wrote:

I just don't get all the gibberish and yappin'. Did you see how big
that
guy was, have you ever had to deal with a guy that big? It's like
grabbing a battle ship and expecting it to know you are there. Anyway,
when somebody else can tell me how you get a guy that big on the
ground
without getting around the only part of his body you can reach
around, I
will listen.

===

Easy, mace and/or a taser. I have seen large adult men running in
circles, screaming like babies and running into trees after being
maced with the military stuff.


It happened too fast. They took the guys hand and asked him to turn
around and get cuffed, he pulled away and three jumped on him. The choke
hold looked like it was a few seconds at best but like I said, once the
cop grabs your hand, he can't let you out of his control, not even for a
second... Once they have physical control of even part of you, they
really can't relinquish that control... period.

===

You've no doubt had more experience with the police than many of us.


Not necessarily... I just watch closer and listen closer without letting
emotion cloud my observation. It's pretty much common sense really, once
you try to fight a cop, they have to escalate until you are in total
control, just like once the thug in Ferguson clocked a cop, it was on
until he was in control. Cops can't "step back" cause all it takes is
that one second for something unexpected to happen and either the perp
is hurting someone else, or getting the upper hand.. It's all math, you
figure it out...


"I just watch closer and listen closer without letting emotion cloud my
observation."

LOL! This has to be the funniest line I've read here in a long time.

On 12/3/2014 10:07 PM, KC wrote:
On 12/3/2014 10:03 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 20:36:11 -0500, KC wrote:

I just don't get all the gibberish and yappin'. Did you see how big that
guy was, have you ever had to deal with a guy that big? It's like
grabbing a battle ship and expecting it to know you are there. Anyway,
when somebody else can tell me how you get a guy that big on the ground
without getting around the only part of his body you can reach around, I
will listen.

===

Easy, mace and/or a taser. I have seen large adult men running in
circles, screaming like babies and running into trees after being
maced with the military stuff.


It happened too fast. They took the guys hand and asked him to turn
around and get cuffed, he pulled away and three jumped on him. The choke
hold looked like it was a few seconds at best but like I said, once the
cop grabs your hand, he can't let you out of his control, not even for a
second... Once they have physical control of even part of you, they
really can't relinquish that control... period.


The smart thing to do when Garner became argumentative and refused to
comply would have been to step back and tase or mace him. Man handling
anyone puts both the cops and the person being arrested at risk of
injury when it isn't necessary. A taser and/or mace is very effective.
So is a billy club swung smartly on the shins.

On 12/4/2014 12:29 AM, wrote:

On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 22:03:45 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

Easy, mace and/or a taser. I have seen large adult men running in
circles, screaming like babies and running into trees after being
maced with the military stuff.

I have also seen guys who just got mad when they were pepper sprayed,
They don't use "Mace" anymore (CN or CS gas depending on the brand) it
is pepper spray now.

My former father in law (DC cop) said mace was only good to blind the
guy for a second so you could get in a couple good licks with your
night stick. ;-)


There's a reason that in the old days the image of a police officer was
a smiling, blue uniformed dude walking down the sidewalk twirling his
night stick.

I've mentioned before that I learned how effective a night stick can be
while standing Shore Patrol duty in the Navy. A quick blow to the shins
will drop just about anyone without causing any permanent damage.

On Thu, 4 Dec 2014 07:47:30 -0500, BAR wrote:

In article ,
says...

So now I have questions.

The guy who was killed in New York was resisting. May not have been
physical, but certainly was verbal. He was not cooperating with or
obeying the commands of the police.

For that he could be found guilty of resisting arrest.

Different issue:

One of the cops applied a choke hold. The medical examiner's report
indicated that it contributed to Garner's death which was determined to
be a homicide.

A choke hold in NY is not permitted under any circumstances per NYPD
policy. It is considered to be excessive force.

Questions:

Is the choke therefore against the law?

No, a policy is not a law.

If so, didn't the cop break the law?

No, policies are not laws.

If so, the law is black or white. You either break it or you don't.

Policies are not law.

If the cop broke the law how can he be found to be not accountable for a
homicide?

Again, policies are not law.

Not trying to be cute here. I don't know the answers to these questions.

When you had your companies you may have implemented policies. These
policies were not laws. If somebody breached a policy what happened to
them? You, the business, didn't conduct a legal trial and then issue
punishments that included jail.

I'm sure the Captain of whatever Navy ship he was on had 'poilicies'.
Maybe something like, "Enlisted ranks may pee only over the starboard
side of the ship." Important stuff.

If he, Luddite, pee'd over the port side, some Ensign would chew his
ass for a bit, but the Chief Petty Officer would say, "**** it."
--

"The modern definition of 'racist' is someone who's winning an argument
with a liberal."

....Peter Brimelow (Author)
(Thanks, Luddite!)

On 12/4/2014 10:13 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 4 Dec 2014 07:47:30 -0500, BAR wrote:

In article ,
says...

So now I have questions.

The guy who was killed in New York was resisting. May not have been
physical, but certainly was verbal. He was not cooperating with or
obeying the commands of the police.

For that he could be found guilty of resisting arrest.

Different issue:

One of the cops applied a choke hold. The medical examiner's report
indicated that it contributed to Garner's death which was determined to
be a homicide.

A choke hold in NY is not permitted under any circumstances per NYPD
policy. It is considered to be excessive force.

Questions:

Is the choke therefore against the law?

No, a policy is not a law.

If so, didn't the cop break the law?

No, policies are not laws.

If so, the law is black or white. You either break it or you don't.

Policies are not law.

If the cop broke the law how can he be found to be not accountable for a
homicide?

Again, policies are not law.

Not trying to be cute here. I don't know the answers to these questions.

When you had your companies you may have implemented policies. These
policies were not laws. If somebody breached a policy what happened to
them? You, the business, didn't conduct a legal trial and then issue
punishments that included jail.

I'm sure the Captain of whatever Navy ship he was on had 'poilicies'.
Maybe something like, "Enlisted ranks may pee only over the starboard
side of the ship." Important stuff.

If he, Luddite, pee'd over the port side, some Ensign would chew his
ass for a bit, but the Chief Petty Officer would say, "**** it."


Never knew a single Ensign who would dare question the ruling or advice
of a CPO. Come to think of it can't think of a Captain or Admiral either.

On Thu, 04 Dec 2014 10:24:32 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 12/4/2014 10:13 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 4 Dec 2014 07:47:30 -0500, BAR wrote:

In article ,
says...

So now I have questions.

The guy who was killed in New York was resisting. May not have been
physical, but certainly was verbal. He was not cooperating with or
obeying the commands of the police.

For that he could be found guilty of resisting arrest.

Different issue:

One of the cops applied a choke hold. The medical examiner's report
indicated that it contributed to Garner's death which was determined to
be a homicide.

A choke hold in NY is not permitted under any circumstances per NYPD
policy. It is considered to be excessive force.

Questions:

Is the choke therefore against the law?

No, a policy is not a law.

If so, didn't the cop break the law?

No, policies are not laws.

If so, the law is black or white. You either break it or you don't.

Policies are not law.

If the cop broke the law how can he be found to be not accountable for a
homicide?

Again, policies are not law.

Not trying to be cute here. I don't know the answers to these questions.

When you had your companies you may have implemented policies. These
policies were not laws. If somebody breached a policy what happened to
them? You, the business, didn't conduct a legal trial and then issue
punishments that included jail.

I'm sure the Captain of whatever Navy ship he was on had 'poilicies'.
Maybe something like, "Enlisted ranks may pee only over the starboard
side of the ship." Important stuff.

If he, Luddite, pee'd over the port side, some Ensign would chew his
ass for a bit, but the Chief Petty Officer would say, "**** it."


Never knew a single Ensign who would dare question the ruling or advice
of a CPO. Come to think of it can't think of a Captain or Admiral either.

Then that right there is futher proof that you didn't know *any*
really stupid Ensigns.
--

"The modern definition of 'racist' is someone who's winning an argument
with a liberal."

....Peter Brimelow (Author)
(Thanks, Luddite!)

On 12/4/2014 10:38 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 04 Dec 2014 10:24:32 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 12/4/2014 10:13 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 4 Dec 2014 07:47:30 -0500, BAR wrote:

In article ,
says...

So now I have questions.

The guy who was killed in New York was resisting. May not have been
physical, but certainly was verbal. He was not cooperating with or
obeying the commands of the police.

For that he could be found guilty of resisting arrest.

Different issue:

One of the cops applied a choke hold. The medical examiner's report
indicated that it contributed to Garner's death which was determined to
be a homicide.

A choke hold in NY is not permitted under any circumstances per NYPD
policy. It is considered to be excessive force.

Questions:

Is the choke therefore against the law?

No, a policy is not a law.

If so, didn't the cop break the law?

No, policies are not laws.

If so, the law is black or white. You either break it or you don't.

Policies are not law.

If the cop broke the law how can he be found to be not accountable for a
homicide?

Again, policies are not law.

Not trying to be cute here. I don't know the answers to these questions.

When you had your companies you may have implemented policies. These
policies were not laws. If somebody breached a policy what happened to
them? You, the business, didn't conduct a legal trial and then issue
punishments that included jail.

I'm sure the Captain of whatever Navy ship he was on had 'poilicies'.
Maybe something like, "Enlisted ranks may pee only over the starboard
side of the ship." Important stuff.

If he, Luddite, pee'd over the port side, some Ensign would chew his
ass for a bit, but the Chief Petty Officer would say, "**** it."


Never knew a single Ensign who would dare question the ruling or advice
of a CPO. Come to think of it can't think of a Captain or Admiral either.

Then that right there is futher proof that you didn't know *any*
really stupid Ensigns.


No, but I have a few very funny ensign stories though.

Speaking of CPO's my cousins step uncle was a CPO . Salty old geezer. Stationed on the USS John Hood in the early 60s from what I can remember. He was 6'1" and shaped like a wedge on legs. But from what I gather he was a just and fair man. But wether from above or below, nobody gave him any crap.

On 12/4/2014 11:58 AM, Tim wrote:

Speaking of CPO's my cousins step uncle was a CPO . Salty old geezer. Stationed on the USS John Hood in the early 60s from what I can remember. He was 6'1" and shaped like a wedge on legs. But from what I gather he was a just and fair man. But wether from above or below, nobody gave him any crap.



Chief Petty Officers are the backbone of the Navy. Everyone, including
Commanding Officers, have a high level of respect for them and will give
them a wide berth in many situations, allowing them to resolve problems
or issues among the crew.