Conflicted
 

On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 19:49:55 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 12/3/2014 7:35 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 18:52:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

A choke hold in NY is not permitted under any circumstances per NYPD
policy. It is considered to be excessive force.

Questions:

Is the choke therefore against the law?

===

No. The rule is a departmental policy, and if you break it, you are
subject to departmental discipline/corrective action. If you could
establish in a departmental hearing that you had no other choice or it
was accidental, you might be exonerated. That doesn't seem very
likely in this case since they could have maced Garner or tasered him.
The cops clearly over reacted in my opinion. Given Garner's asthma
and other medical issues, the mace or taser might have killed him but
we'll never know.



Thanks. That makes sense.

It seems to me that police officers in NYC might have better things to
do than go after a guy for selling a few packs of non-taxed cigarettes.

But there was also a reference to Garner being involved in breaking up a
fight. Maybe that's why the police were called.


===

I believe Garner had a lot of priors for relatively low level street
crimes and was well known to the local cops.

One of the reasons that Rudy Giuliani was so successful at reducing
NYC's crime rate was because of the active pursuit of low level crimes
that were formerly ignored. It turns out that the big crimes are
committed by pretty much the same people as the small crimes, so if
you pursue the petty offenders you also reduce the more serious stuff.
That lesson took hold and has influenced policy ever since.

Conflicted
 

On 12/3/2014 7:35 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 18:52:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

A choke hold in NY is not permitted under any circumstances per NYPD
policy. It is considered to be excessive force.

Questions:

Is the choke therefore against the law?

===

No. The rule is a departmental policy, and if you break it, you are
subject to departmental discipline/corrective action. If you could
establish in a departmental hearing that you had no other choice or it
was accidental, you might be exonerated. That doesn't seem very
likely in this case since they could have maced Garner or tasered him.
The cops clearly over reacted in my opinion. Given Garner's asthma
and other medical issues, the mace or taser might have killed him but
we'll never know.


I just don't get all the gibberish and yappin'. Did you see how big that
guy was, have you ever had to deal with a guy that big? It's like
grabbing a battle ship and expecting it to know you are there. Anyway,
when somebody else can tell me how you get a guy that big on the ground
without getting around the only part of his body you can reach around, I
will listen. And once you grab that guys hand and "ask" him to get into
cuffs, no training in the world will allow a cop to back off to tazer or
mace... Once the struggle starts, you can not lose any amount of control
you have on the perp... Trust me, there is a lot you all don't know
about me, but you can't fight with what real cops have told me, and I
don't hang with them at tea parties :) I don't hate all cops, and they
all don't hate me :)

Conflicted
 

On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 19:53:32 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 12/3/2014 7:39 PM, Let it snowe wrote:
On 12/3/2014 7:21 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 12/3/2014 7:08 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 18:52:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


So now I have questions.

The guy who was killed in New York was resisting. May not have been
physical, but certainly was verbal. He was not cooperating with or
obeying the commands of the police.

For that he could be found guilty of resisting arrest.

Different issue:

One of the cops applied a choke hold. The medical examiner's report
indicated that it contributed to Garner's death which was determined to
be a homicide.

Whether it was really a 'choke hold' or not appears to be questionable
according to a source on CNN about ten minutes ago.

A choke hold in NY is not permitted under any circumstances per NYPD
policy. It is considered to be excessive force.

Key word is 'policy'.

Questions:

Is the choke therefore against the law?

NYPD policy is not law, per se.

If so, didn't the cop break the law?

N/A

If so, the law is black or white. You either break it or you don't.

Again, N/A


If the cop broke the law how can he be found to be not accountable
for a
homicide?

He did not break the law, but violated NYPD policy.

Not trying to be cute here. I don't know the answers to these
questions.


Watch some CNN. It's probably not as biased as MSNBC.



I watch CNN about 80 percent of the time. Watching it right now.
Media people can debate if the cop used a choke hold or not all day.
The findings of the medical examiner says he was choked and it
contributed to his death.

Did the GJ decide to disregard the medical examiner's findings?
Did they decide it was not a homicide?

Doesn't make sense to me.



The choking wasn't THE cause of death. It seems there were numerous
contributing factors.


No, but it was a contributing cause and his death was determined to be a
homicide.

Wayne cleared it up I think. The "no choke" is a NYPD policy, not a
law. Therefore the cop can't be accused of breaking a law. He broke a
policy which would be handled at the police department level, not a court.


I'm sure glad Wayne cleared that up. I was afraid you might have
agreed with the post above.
--

"The modern definition of 'racist' is someone who's winning an argument
with a liberal."

....Peter Brimelow (Author)
(Thanks, Luddite!)

Conflicted
 

On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 20:36:11 -0500, KC wrote:

I just don't get all the gibberish and yappin'. Did you see how big that
guy was, have you ever had to deal with a guy that big? It's like
grabbing a battle ship and expecting it to know you are there. Anyway,
when somebody else can tell me how you get a guy that big on the ground
without getting around the only part of his body you can reach around, I
will listen.

===

Easy, mace and/or a taser. I have seen large adult men running in
circles, screaming like babies and running into trees after being
maced with the military stuff.

Conflicted
 

On 12/3/2014 10:03 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 20:36:11 -0500, KC wrote:

I just don't get all the gibberish and yappin'. Did you see how big that
guy was, have you ever had to deal with a guy that big? It's like
grabbing a battle ship and expecting it to know you are there. Anyway,
when somebody else can tell me how you get a guy that big on the ground
without getting around the only part of his body you can reach around, I
will listen.

===

Easy, mace and/or a taser. I have seen large adult men running in
circles, screaming like babies and running into trees after being
maced with the military stuff.


It happened too fast. They took the guys hand and asked him to turn
around and get cuffed, he pulled away and three jumped on him. The choke
hold looked like it was a few seconds at best but like I said, once the
cop grabs your hand, he can't let you out of his control, not even for a
second... Once they have physical control of even part of you, they
really can't relinquish that control... period.

Conflicted
 

On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 22:07:40 -0500, KC wrote:

On 12/3/2014 10:03 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 20:36:11 -0500, KC wrote:

I just don't get all the gibberish and yappin'. Did you see how big that
guy was, have you ever had to deal with a guy that big? It's like
grabbing a battle ship and expecting it to know you are there. Anyway,
when somebody else can tell me how you get a guy that big on the ground
without getting around the only part of his body you can reach around, I
will listen.

===

Easy, mace and/or a taser. I have seen large adult men running in
circles, screaming like babies and running into trees after being
maced with the military stuff.


It happened too fast. They took the guys hand and asked him to turn
around and get cuffed, he pulled away and three jumped on him. The choke
hold looked like it was a few seconds at best but like I said, once the
cop grabs your hand, he can't let you out of his control, not even for a
second... Once they have physical control of even part of you, they
really can't relinquish that control... period.

===

You've no doubt had more experience with the police than many of us.

Conflicted
 

On 12/3/2014 10:28 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 22:07:40 -0500, KC wrote:

On 12/3/2014 10:03 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 20:36:11 -0500, KC wrote:

I just don't get all the gibberish and yappin'. Did you see how big that
guy was, have you ever had to deal with a guy that big? It's like
grabbing a battle ship and expecting it to know you are there. Anyway,
when somebody else can tell me how you get a guy that big on the ground
without getting around the only part of his body you can reach around, I
will listen.

===

Easy, mace and/or a taser. I have seen large adult men running in
circles, screaming like babies and running into trees after being
maced with the military stuff.


It happened too fast. They took the guys hand and asked him to turn
around and get cuffed, he pulled away and three jumped on him. The choke
hold looked like it was a few seconds at best but like I said, once the
cop grabs your hand, he can't let you out of his control, not even for a
second... Once they have physical control of even part of you, they
really can't relinquish that control... period.

===

You've no doubt had more experience with the police than many of us.


Not necessarily... I just watch closer and listen closer without letting
emotion cloud my observation. It's pretty much common sense really, once
you try to fight a cop, they have to escalate until you are in total
control, just like once the thug in Ferguson clocked a cop, it was on
until he was in control. Cops can't "step back" cause all it takes is
that one second for something unexpected to happen and either the perp
is hurting someone else, or getting the upper hand.. It's all math, you
figure it out...

Conflicted
 

KC wrote:
On 12/3/2014 10:28 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 22:07:40 -0500, KC wrote:

On 12/3/2014 10:03 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 20:36:11 -0500, KC wrote:

I just don't get all the gibberish and yappin'. Did you see how big that
guy was, have you ever had to deal with a guy that big? It's like
grabbing a battle ship and expecting it to know you are there. Anyway,
when somebody else can tell me how you get a guy that big on the ground
without getting around the only part of his body you can reach around, I
will listen.

===

Easy, mace and/or a taser. I have seen large adult men running in
circles, screaming like babies and running into trees after being
maced with the military stuff.


It happened too fast. They took the guys hand and asked him to turn
around and get cuffed, he pulled away and three jumped on him. The choke
hold looked like it was a few seconds at best but like I said, once the
cop grabs your hand, he can't let you out of his control, not even for a
second... Once they have physical control of even part of you, they
really can't relinquish that control... period.

===

You've no doubt had more experience with the police than many of us.


Not necessarily... I just watch closer and listen closer without letting
emotion cloud my observation. It's pretty much common sense really, once
you try to fight a cop, they have to escalate until you are in total
control, just like once the thug in Ferguson clocked a cop, it was on
until he was in control. Cops can't "step back" cause all it takes is
that one second for something unexpected to happen and either the perp is
hurting someone else, or getting the upper hand.. It's all math, you figure it out...

Tell us again how the cops shoved you down the stairs and took $600 from
you...
--
Sent from my iPhone 6+

Conflicted
 

On Wednesday, December 3, 2014 10:46:55 PM UTC-5, F*O*A*D wrote:
KC wrote:
On 12/3/2014 10:28 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 22:07:40 -0500, KC wrote:

On 12/3/2014 10:03 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 20:36:11 -0500, KC wrote:

I just don't get all the gibberish and yappin'. Did you see how big that
guy was, have you ever had to deal with a guy that big? It's like
grabbing a battle ship and expecting it to know you are there. Anyway,
when somebody else can tell me how you get a guy that big on the ground
without getting around the only part of his body you can reach around, I
will listen.

===

Easy, mace and/or a taser. I have seen large adult men running in
circles, screaming like babies and running into trees after being
maced with the military stuff.


It happened too fast. They took the guys hand and asked him to turn
around and get cuffed, he pulled away and three jumped on him. The choke
hold looked like it was a few seconds at best but like I said, once the
cop grabs your hand, he can't let you out of his control, not even for a
second... Once they have physical control of even part of you, they
really can't relinquish that control... period.

===

You've no doubt had more experience with the police than many of us.


Not necessarily... I just watch closer and listen closer without letting
emotion cloud my observation. It's pretty much common sense really, once
you try to fight a cop, they have to escalate until you are in total
control, just like once the thug in Ferguson clocked a cop, it was on
until he was in control. Cops can't "step back" cause all it takes is
that one second for something unexpected to happen and either the perp is
hurting someone else, or getting the upper hand.. It's all math, you figure it out...

Tell us again how the cops shoved you down the stairs and took $600 from
you...
--
Sent from my iPhone 6+

And yet I can still see their side on some things. You don't have that kind of wisdom, you are just a clown who spent his life stealing from others, no better than a bad cop, no moral core, no redeeming qualities at all harry krause.

Conflicted
 

F*O*A*D wrote:
On 12/3/14 6:52 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:

So now I have questions.

The guy who was killed in New York was resisting. May not have been
physical, but certainly was verbal. He was not cooperating with or
obeying the commands of the police.

For that he could be found guilty of resisting arrest.

Different issue:

One of the cops applied a choke hold. The medical examiner's report
indicated that it contributed to Garner's death which was determined to
be a homicide.

A choke hold in NY is not permitted under any circumstances per NYPD
policy. It is considered to be excessive force.

Questions:

Is the choke therefore against the law?

If so, didn't the cop break the law?

If so, the law is black or white. You either break it or you don't.

If the cop broke the law how can he be found to be not accountable for a
homicide?


Not trying to be cute here. I don't know the answers to these questions.





Laws concerning violence apparently do not apply when the violence is committed by cops.

I understand the feelings of some in minority communities who have no
respect for cops. There have been too many incidents of cops using
grossly excessive force against unarmed suspects and against people who
have done nothing wrong.

The cops are out of control.


Actually the governments are out of control.