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Conflicted
So now I have questions. The guy who was killed in New York was resisting. May not have been physical, but certainly was verbal. He was not cooperating with or obeying the commands of the police. For that he could be found guilty of resisting arrest. Different issue: One of the cops applied a choke hold. The medical examiner's report indicated that it contributed to Garner's death which was determined to be a homicide. A choke hold in NY is not permitted under any circumstances per NYPD policy. It is considered to be excessive force. Questions: Is the choke therefore against the law? If so, didn't the cop break the law? If so, the law is black or white. You either break it or you don't. If the cop broke the law how can he be found to be not accountable for a homicide? Not trying to be cute here. I don't know the answers to these questions. |
Conflicted
On 12/3/14 6:52 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
So now I have questions. The guy who was killed in New York was resisting. May not have been physical, but certainly was verbal. He was not cooperating with or obeying the commands of the police. For that he could be found guilty of resisting arrest. Different issue: One of the cops applied a choke hold. The medical examiner's report indicated that it contributed to Garner's death which was determined to be a homicide. A choke hold in NY is not permitted under any circumstances per NYPD policy. It is considered to be excessive force. Questions: Is the choke therefore against the law? If so, didn't the cop break the law? If so, the law is black or white. You either break it or you don't. If the cop broke the law how can he be found to be not accountable for a homicide? Not trying to be cute here. I don't know the answers to these questions. Laws concerning violence apparently do not apply when the violence is committed by cops. I understand the feelings of some in minority communities who have no respect for cops. There have been too many incidents of cops using grossly excessive force against unarmed suspects and against people who have done nothing wrong. The cops are out of control. -- I feel no need to explain my politics to stupid right-wingers. After all, I am *not* the Jackass Whisperer. |
Conflicted
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 18:52:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: So now I have questions. The guy who was killed in New York was resisting. May not have been physical, but certainly was verbal. He was not cooperating with or obeying the commands of the police. For that he could be found guilty of resisting arrest. Different issue: One of the cops applied a choke hold. The medical examiner's report indicated that it contributed to Garner's death which was determined to be a homicide. Whether it was really a 'choke hold' or not appears to be questionable according to a source on CNN about ten minutes ago. A choke hold in NY is not permitted under any circumstances per NYPD policy. It is considered to be excessive force. Key word is 'policy'. Questions: Is the choke therefore against the law? NYPD policy is not law, per se. If so, didn't the cop break the law? N/A If so, the law is black or white. You either break it or you don't. Again, N/A If the cop broke the law how can he be found to be not accountable for a homicide? He did not break the law, but violated NYPD policy. Not trying to be cute here. I don't know the answers to these questions. Watch some CNN. It's probably not as biased as MSNBC. -- "The modern definition of 'racist' is someone who's winning an argument with a liberal." ....Peter Brimelow (Author) (Thanks, Luddite!) |
Conflicted
On 12/3/2014 7:08 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 18:52:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: So now I have questions. The guy who was killed in New York was resisting. May not have been physical, but certainly was verbal. He was not cooperating with or obeying the commands of the police. For that he could be found guilty of resisting arrest. Different issue: One of the cops applied a choke hold. The medical examiner's report indicated that it contributed to Garner's death which was determined to be a homicide. Whether it was really a 'choke hold' or not appears to be questionable according to a source on CNN about ten minutes ago. A choke hold in NY is not permitted under any circumstances per NYPD policy. It is considered to be excessive force. Key word is 'policy'. Questions: Is the choke therefore against the law? NYPD policy is not law, per se. If so, didn't the cop break the law? N/A If so, the law is black or white. You either break it or you don't. Again, N/A If the cop broke the law how can he be found to be not accountable for a homicide? He did not break the law, but violated NYPD policy. Not trying to be cute here. I don't know the answers to these questions. Watch some CNN. It's probably not as biased as MSNBC. It's easier to watch MSNBC, why worry about all the facts or both sides when they are gonna' tell you what to think and say anyway :) -- "The modern definition of 'racist' is someone who's winning an argument with a liberal." ...Peter Brimelow (Author) (Thanks, Luddite!) |
Conflicted
On 12/3/2014 7:08 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 18:52:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: So now I have questions. The guy who was killed in New York was resisting. May not have been physical, but certainly was verbal. He was not cooperating with or obeying the commands of the police. For that he could be found guilty of resisting arrest. Different issue: One of the cops applied a choke hold. The medical examiner's report indicated that it contributed to Garner's death which was determined to be a homicide. Whether it was really a 'choke hold' or not appears to be questionable according to a source on CNN about ten minutes ago. A choke hold in NY is not permitted under any circumstances per NYPD policy. It is considered to be excessive force. Key word is 'policy'. Questions: Is the choke therefore against the law? NYPD policy is not law, per se. If so, didn't the cop break the law? N/A If so, the law is black or white. You either break it or you don't. Again, N/A If the cop broke the law how can he be found to be not accountable for a homicide? He did not break the law, but violated NYPD policy. Not trying to be cute here. I don't know the answers to these questions. Watch some CNN. It's probably not as biased as MSNBC. I watch CNN about 80 percent of the time. Watching it right now. Media people can debate if the cop used a choke hold or not all day. The findings of the medical examiner says he was choked and it contributed to his death. Did the GJ decide to disregard the medical examiner's findings? Did they decide it was not a homicide? Doesn't make sense to me. |
Conflicted
On 12/3/2014 7:18 PM, KC wrote:
On 12/3/2014 7:08 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 18:52:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: Not trying to be cute here. I don't know the answers to these questions. Watch some CNN. It's probably not as biased as MSNBC. It's easier to watch MSNBC, why worry about all the facts or both sides when they are gonna' tell you what to think and say anyway :) Why are you babbling on your computer or whatever you use? Aren't you missing the latest episode of Hannity? |
Conflicted
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 18:52:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: A choke hold in NY is not permitted under any circumstances per NYPD policy. It is considered to be excessive force. Questions: Is the choke therefore against the law? === No. The rule is a departmental policy, and if you break it, you are subject to departmental discipline/corrective action. If you could establish in a departmental hearing that you had no other choice or it was accidental, you might be exonerated. That doesn't seem very likely in this case since they could have maced Garner or tasered him. The cops clearly over reacted in my opinion. Given Garner's asthma and other medical issues, the mace or taser might have killed him but we'll never know. |
Conflicted
On 12/3/2014 7:21 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 12/3/2014 7:08 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 18:52:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: So now I have questions. The guy who was killed in New York was resisting. May not have been physical, but certainly was verbal. He was not cooperating with or obeying the commands of the police. For that he could be found guilty of resisting arrest. Different issue: One of the cops applied a choke hold. The medical examiner's report indicated that it contributed to Garner's death which was determined to be a homicide. Whether it was really a 'choke hold' or not appears to be questionable according to a source on CNN about ten minutes ago. A choke hold in NY is not permitted under any circumstances per NYPD policy. It is considered to be excessive force. Key word is 'policy'. Questions: Is the choke therefore against the law? NYPD policy is not law, per se. If so, didn't the cop break the law? N/A If so, the law is black or white. You either break it or you don't. Again, N/A If the cop broke the law how can he be found to be not accountable for a homicide? He did not break the law, but violated NYPD policy. Not trying to be cute here. I don't know the answers to these questions. Watch some CNN. It's probably not as biased as MSNBC. I watch CNN about 80 percent of the time. Watching it right now. Media people can debate if the cop used a choke hold or not all day. The findings of the medical examiner says he was choked and it contributed to his death. Did the GJ decide to disregard the medical examiner's findings? Did they decide it was not a homicide? Doesn't make sense to me. The choking wasn't THE cause of death. It seems there were numerous contributing factors. |
Conflicted
On 12/3/2014 7:35 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 18:52:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: A choke hold in NY is not permitted under any circumstances per NYPD policy. It is considered to be excessive force. Questions: Is the choke therefore against the law? === No. The rule is a departmental policy, and if you break it, you are subject to departmental discipline/corrective action. If you could establish in a departmental hearing that you had no other choice or it was accidental, you might be exonerated. That doesn't seem very likely in this case since they could have maced Garner or tasered him. The cops clearly over reacted in my opinion. Given Garner's asthma and other medical issues, the mace or taser might have killed him but we'll never know. Thanks. That makes sense. It seems to me that police officers in NYC might have better things to do than go after a guy for selling a few packs of non-taxed cigarettes. But there was also a reference to Garner being involved in breaking up a fight. Maybe that's why the police were called. |
Conflicted
On 12/3/2014 7:39 PM, Let it snowe wrote:
On 12/3/2014 7:21 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 12/3/2014 7:08 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 18:52:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: So now I have questions. The guy who was killed in New York was resisting. May not have been physical, but certainly was verbal. He was not cooperating with or obeying the commands of the police. For that he could be found guilty of resisting arrest. Different issue: One of the cops applied a choke hold. The medical examiner's report indicated that it contributed to Garner's death which was determined to be a homicide. Whether it was really a 'choke hold' or not appears to be questionable according to a source on CNN about ten minutes ago. A choke hold in NY is not permitted under any circumstances per NYPD policy. It is considered to be excessive force. Key word is 'policy'. Questions: Is the choke therefore against the law? NYPD policy is not law, per se. If so, didn't the cop break the law? N/A If so, the law is black or white. You either break it or you don't. Again, N/A If the cop broke the law how can he be found to be not accountable for a homicide? He did not break the law, but violated NYPD policy. Not trying to be cute here. I don't know the answers to these questions. Watch some CNN. It's probably not as biased as MSNBC. I watch CNN about 80 percent of the time. Watching it right now. Media people can debate if the cop used a choke hold or not all day. The findings of the medical examiner says he was choked and it contributed to his death. Did the GJ decide to disregard the medical examiner's findings? Did they decide it was not a homicide? Doesn't make sense to me. The choking wasn't THE cause of death. It seems there were numerous contributing factors. No, but it was a contributing cause and his death was determined to be a homicide. Wayne cleared it up I think. The "no choke" is a NYPD policy, not a law. Therefore the cop can't be accused of breaking a law. He broke a policy which would be handled at the police department level, not a court. |
Conflicted
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 19:49:55 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 12/3/2014 7:35 PM, Wayne.B wrote: On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 18:52:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: A choke hold in NY is not permitted under any circumstances per NYPD policy. It is considered to be excessive force. Questions: Is the choke therefore against the law? === No. The rule is a departmental policy, and if you break it, you are subject to departmental discipline/corrective action. If you could establish in a departmental hearing that you had no other choice or it was accidental, you might be exonerated. That doesn't seem very likely in this case since they could have maced Garner or tasered him. The cops clearly over reacted in my opinion. Given Garner's asthma and other medical issues, the mace or taser might have killed him but we'll never know. Thanks. That makes sense. It seems to me that police officers in NYC might have better things to do than go after a guy for selling a few packs of non-taxed cigarettes. But there was also a reference to Garner being involved in breaking up a fight. Maybe that's why the police were called. === I believe Garner had a lot of priors for relatively low level street crimes and was well known to the local cops. One of the reasons that Rudy Giuliani was so successful at reducing NYC's crime rate was because of the active pursuit of low level crimes that were formerly ignored. It turns out that the big crimes are committed by pretty much the same people as the small crimes, so if you pursue the petty offenders you also reduce the more serious stuff. That lesson took hold and has influenced policy ever since. |
Conflicted
On 12/3/2014 7:35 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 18:52:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: A choke hold in NY is not permitted under any circumstances per NYPD policy. It is considered to be excessive force. Questions: Is the choke therefore against the law? === No. The rule is a departmental policy, and if you break it, you are subject to departmental discipline/corrective action. If you could establish in a departmental hearing that you had no other choice or it was accidental, you might be exonerated. That doesn't seem very likely in this case since they could have maced Garner or tasered him. The cops clearly over reacted in my opinion. Given Garner's asthma and other medical issues, the mace or taser might have killed him but we'll never know. I just don't get all the gibberish and yappin'. Did you see how big that guy was, have you ever had to deal with a guy that big? It's like grabbing a battle ship and expecting it to know you are there. Anyway, when somebody else can tell me how you get a guy that big on the ground without getting around the only part of his body you can reach around, I will listen. And once you grab that guys hand and "ask" him to get into cuffs, no training in the world will allow a cop to back off to tazer or mace... Once the struggle starts, you can not lose any amount of control you have on the perp... Trust me, there is a lot you all don't know about me, but you can't fight with what real cops have told me, and I don't hang with them at tea parties :) I don't hate all cops, and they all don't hate me :) |
Conflicted
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 19:53:32 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 12/3/2014 7:39 PM, Let it snowe wrote: On 12/3/2014 7:21 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 12/3/2014 7:08 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 18:52:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: So now I have questions. The guy who was killed in New York was resisting. May not have been physical, but certainly was verbal. He was not cooperating with or obeying the commands of the police. For that he could be found guilty of resisting arrest. Different issue: One of the cops applied a choke hold. The medical examiner's report indicated that it contributed to Garner's death which was determined to be a homicide. Whether it was really a 'choke hold' or not appears to be questionable according to a source on CNN about ten minutes ago. A choke hold in NY is not permitted under any circumstances per NYPD policy. It is considered to be excessive force. Key word is 'policy'. Questions: Is the choke therefore against the law? NYPD policy is not law, per se. If so, didn't the cop break the law? N/A If so, the law is black or white. You either break it or you don't. Again, N/A If the cop broke the law how can he be found to be not accountable for a homicide? He did not break the law, but violated NYPD policy. Not trying to be cute here. I don't know the answers to these questions. Watch some CNN. It's probably not as biased as MSNBC. I watch CNN about 80 percent of the time. Watching it right now. Media people can debate if the cop used a choke hold or not all day. The findings of the medical examiner says he was choked and it contributed to his death. Did the GJ decide to disregard the medical examiner's findings? Did they decide it was not a homicide? Doesn't make sense to me. The choking wasn't THE cause of death. It seems there were numerous contributing factors. No, but it was a contributing cause and his death was determined to be a homicide. Wayne cleared it up I think. The "no choke" is a NYPD policy, not a law. Therefore the cop can't be accused of breaking a law. He broke a policy which would be handled at the police department level, not a court. I'm sure glad Wayne cleared that up. I was afraid you might have agreed with the post above. -- "The modern definition of 'racist' is someone who's winning an argument with a liberal." ....Peter Brimelow (Author) (Thanks, Luddite!) |
Conflicted
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 20:36:11 -0500, KC wrote:
I just don't get all the gibberish and yappin'. Did you see how big that guy was, have you ever had to deal with a guy that big? It's like grabbing a battle ship and expecting it to know you are there. Anyway, when somebody else can tell me how you get a guy that big on the ground without getting around the only part of his body you can reach around, I will listen. === Easy, mace and/or a taser. I have seen large adult men running in circles, screaming like babies and running into trees after being maced with the military stuff. |
Conflicted
On 12/3/2014 10:03 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 20:36:11 -0500, KC wrote: I just don't get all the gibberish and yappin'. Did you see how big that guy was, have you ever had to deal with a guy that big? It's like grabbing a battle ship and expecting it to know you are there. Anyway, when somebody else can tell me how you get a guy that big on the ground without getting around the only part of his body you can reach around, I will listen. === Easy, mace and/or a taser. I have seen large adult men running in circles, screaming like babies and running into trees after being maced with the military stuff. It happened too fast. They took the guys hand and asked him to turn around and get cuffed, he pulled away and three jumped on him. The choke hold looked like it was a few seconds at best but like I said, once the cop grabs your hand, he can't let you out of his control, not even for a second... Once they have physical control of even part of you, they really can't relinquish that control... period. |
Conflicted
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 22:07:40 -0500, KC wrote:
On 12/3/2014 10:03 PM, Wayne.B wrote: On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 20:36:11 -0500, KC wrote: I just don't get all the gibberish and yappin'. Did you see how big that guy was, have you ever had to deal with a guy that big? It's like grabbing a battle ship and expecting it to know you are there. Anyway, when somebody else can tell me how you get a guy that big on the ground without getting around the only part of his body you can reach around, I will listen. === Easy, mace and/or a taser. I have seen large adult men running in circles, screaming like babies and running into trees after being maced with the military stuff. It happened too fast. They took the guys hand and asked him to turn around and get cuffed, he pulled away and three jumped on him. The choke hold looked like it was a few seconds at best but like I said, once the cop grabs your hand, he can't let you out of his control, not even for a second... Once they have physical control of even part of you, they really can't relinquish that control... period. === You've no doubt had more experience with the police than many of us. |
Conflicted
On 12/3/2014 10:28 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 22:07:40 -0500, KC wrote: On 12/3/2014 10:03 PM, Wayne.B wrote: On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 20:36:11 -0500, KC wrote: I just don't get all the gibberish and yappin'. Did you see how big that guy was, have you ever had to deal with a guy that big? It's like grabbing a battle ship and expecting it to know you are there. Anyway, when somebody else can tell me how you get a guy that big on the ground without getting around the only part of his body you can reach around, I will listen. === Easy, mace and/or a taser. I have seen large adult men running in circles, screaming like babies and running into trees after being maced with the military stuff. It happened too fast. They took the guys hand and asked him to turn around and get cuffed, he pulled away and three jumped on him. The choke hold looked like it was a few seconds at best but like I said, once the cop grabs your hand, he can't let you out of his control, not even for a second... Once they have physical control of even part of you, they really can't relinquish that control... period. === You've no doubt had more experience with the police than many of us. Not necessarily... I just watch closer and listen closer without letting emotion cloud my observation. It's pretty much common sense really, once you try to fight a cop, they have to escalate until you are in total control, just like once the thug in Ferguson clocked a cop, it was on until he was in control. Cops can't "step back" cause all it takes is that one second for something unexpected to happen and either the perp is hurting someone else, or getting the upper hand.. It's all math, you figure it out... |
Conflicted
KC wrote:
On 12/3/2014 10:28 PM, Wayne.B wrote: On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 22:07:40 -0500, KC wrote: On 12/3/2014 10:03 PM, Wayne.B wrote: On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 20:36:11 -0500, KC wrote: I just don't get all the gibberish and yappin'. Did you see how big that guy was, have you ever had to deal with a guy that big? It's like grabbing a battle ship and expecting it to know you are there. Anyway, when somebody else can tell me how you get a guy that big on the ground without getting around the only part of his body you can reach around, I will listen. === Easy, mace and/or a taser. I have seen large adult men running in circles, screaming like babies and running into trees after being maced with the military stuff. It happened too fast. They took the guys hand and asked him to turn around and get cuffed, he pulled away and three jumped on him. The choke hold looked like it was a few seconds at best but like I said, once the cop grabs your hand, he can't let you out of his control, not even for a second... Once they have physical control of even part of you, they really can't relinquish that control... period. === You've no doubt had more experience with the police than many of us. Not necessarily... I just watch closer and listen closer without letting emotion cloud my observation. It's pretty much common sense really, once you try to fight a cop, they have to escalate until you are in total control, just like once the thug in Ferguson clocked a cop, it was on until he was in control. Cops can't "step back" cause all it takes is that one second for something unexpected to happen and either the perp is hurting someone else, or getting the upper hand.. It's all math, you figure it out... Tell us again how the cops shoved you down the stairs and took $600 from you... -- Sent from my iPhone 6+ |
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On Wednesday, December 3, 2014 10:46:55 PM UTC-5, F*O*A*D wrote:
KC wrote: On 12/3/2014 10:28 PM, Wayne.B wrote: On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 22:07:40 -0500, KC wrote: On 12/3/2014 10:03 PM, Wayne.B wrote: On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 20:36:11 -0500, KC wrote: I just don't get all the gibberish and yappin'. Did you see how big that guy was, have you ever had to deal with a guy that big? It's like grabbing a battle ship and expecting it to know you are there. Anyway, when somebody else can tell me how you get a guy that big on the ground without getting around the only part of his body you can reach around, I will listen. === Easy, mace and/or a taser. I have seen large adult men running in circles, screaming like babies and running into trees after being maced with the military stuff. It happened too fast. They took the guys hand and asked him to turn around and get cuffed, he pulled away and three jumped on him. The choke hold looked like it was a few seconds at best but like I said, once the cop grabs your hand, he can't let you out of his control, not even for a second... Once they have physical control of even part of you, they really can't relinquish that control... period. === You've no doubt had more experience with the police than many of us. Not necessarily... I just watch closer and listen closer without letting emotion cloud my observation. It's pretty much common sense really, once you try to fight a cop, they have to escalate until you are in total control, just like once the thug in Ferguson clocked a cop, it was on until he was in control. Cops can't "step back" cause all it takes is that one second for something unexpected to happen and either the perp is hurting someone else, or getting the upper hand.. It's all math, you figure it out... Tell us again how the cops shoved you down the stairs and took $600 from you... -- Sent from my iPhone 6+ And yet I can still see their side on some things. You don't have that kind of wisdom, you are just a clown who spent his life stealing from others, no better than a bad cop, no moral core, no redeeming qualities at all harry krause. |
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F*O*A*D wrote:
On 12/3/14 6:52 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: So now I have questions. The guy who was killed in New York was resisting. May not have been physical, but certainly was verbal. He was not cooperating with or obeying the commands of the police. For that he could be found guilty of resisting arrest. Different issue: One of the cops applied a choke hold. The medical examiner's report indicated that it contributed to Garner's death which was determined to be a homicide. A choke hold in NY is not permitted under any circumstances per NYPD policy. It is considered to be excessive force. Questions: Is the choke therefore against the law? If so, didn't the cop break the law? If so, the law is black or white. You either break it or you don't. If the cop broke the law how can he be found to be not accountable for a homicide? Not trying to be cute here. I don't know the answers to these questions. Laws concerning violence apparently do not apply when the violence is committed by cops. I understand the feelings of some in minority communities who have no respect for cops. There have been too many incidents of cops using grossly excessive force against unarmed suspects and against people who have done nothing wrong. The cops are out of control. Actually the governments are out of control. |
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"Mr. Luddite" wrote:
So now I have questions. The guy who was killed in New York was resisting. May not have been physical, but certainly was verbal. He was not cooperating with or obeying the commands of the police. For that he could be found guilty of resisting arrest. Different issue: One of the cops applied a choke hold. The medical examiner's report indicated that it contributed to Garner's death which was determined to be a homicide. A choke hold in NY is not permitted under any circumstances per NYPD policy. It is considered to be excessive force. Questions: Is the choke therefore against the law? If so, didn't the cop break the law? If so, the law is black or white. You either break it or you don't. If the cop broke the law how can he be found to be not accountable for a homicide? Not trying to be cute here. I don't know the answers to these questions. The choke hold is not against the law. It is against police regulations. Big difference. I think the fact he layed on the ground for 7 minutes before CPR was applied should lead to a possible manslaughter charge against all the cops there. They said he stated he could not breath. That seems odd. As how could you. Once things when you could not breath? There is a huge difference between the two cases. One was physically attacking the cop. The 2nd case was a verbal attack. |
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On 12/3/2014 10:39 PM, KC wrote:
On 12/3/2014 10:28 PM, Wayne.B wrote: On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 22:07:40 -0500, KC wrote: On 12/3/2014 10:03 PM, Wayne.B wrote: On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 20:36:11 -0500, KC wrote: I just don't get all the gibberish and yappin'. Did you see how big that guy was, have you ever had to deal with a guy that big? It's like grabbing a battle ship and expecting it to know you are there. Anyway, when somebody else can tell me how you get a guy that big on the ground without getting around the only part of his body you can reach around, I will listen. === Easy, mace and/or a taser. I have seen large adult men running in circles, screaming like babies and running into trees after being maced with the military stuff. It happened too fast. They took the guys hand and asked him to turn around and get cuffed, he pulled away and three jumped on him. The choke hold looked like it was a few seconds at best but like I said, once the cop grabs your hand, he can't let you out of his control, not even for a second... Once they have physical control of even part of you, they really can't relinquish that control... period. === You've no doubt had more experience with the police than many of us. Not necessarily... I just watch closer and listen closer without letting emotion cloud my observation. It's pretty much common sense really, once you try to fight a cop, they have to escalate until you are in total control, just like once the thug in Ferguson clocked a cop, it was on until he was in control. Cops can't "step back" cause all it takes is that one second for something unexpected to happen and either the perp is hurting someone else, or getting the upper hand.. It's all math, you figure it out... "I just watch closer and listen closer without letting emotion cloud my observation." LOL! This has to be the funniest line I've read here in a long time. |
Conflicted
On 12/3/2014 10:07 PM, KC wrote:
On 12/3/2014 10:03 PM, Wayne.B wrote: On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 20:36:11 -0500, KC wrote: I just don't get all the gibberish and yappin'. Did you see how big that guy was, have you ever had to deal with a guy that big? It's like grabbing a battle ship and expecting it to know you are there. Anyway, when somebody else can tell me how you get a guy that big on the ground without getting around the only part of his body you can reach around, I will listen. === Easy, mace and/or a taser. I have seen large adult men running in circles, screaming like babies and running into trees after being maced with the military stuff. It happened too fast. They took the guys hand and asked him to turn around and get cuffed, he pulled away and three jumped on him. The choke hold looked like it was a few seconds at best but like I said, once the cop grabs your hand, he can't let you out of his control, not even for a second... Once they have physical control of even part of you, they really can't relinquish that control... period. The smart thing to do when Garner became argumentative and refused to comply would have been to step back and tase or mace him. Man handling anyone puts both the cops and the person being arrested at risk of injury when it isn't necessary. A taser and/or mace is very effective. So is a billy club swung smartly on the shins. |
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Conflicted
On Thu, 4 Dec 2014 07:47:30 -0500, BAR wrote:
In article , says... So now I have questions. The guy who was killed in New York was resisting. May not have been physical, but certainly was verbal. He was not cooperating with or obeying the commands of the police. For that he could be found guilty of resisting arrest. Different issue: One of the cops applied a choke hold. The medical examiner's report indicated that it contributed to Garner's death which was determined to be a homicide. A choke hold in NY is not permitted under any circumstances per NYPD policy. It is considered to be excessive force. Questions: Is the choke therefore against the law? No, a policy is not a law. If so, didn't the cop break the law? No, policies are not laws. If so, the law is black or white. You either break it or you don't. Policies are not law. If the cop broke the law how can he be found to be not accountable for a homicide? Again, policies are not law. Not trying to be cute here. I don't know the answers to these questions. When you had your companies you may have implemented policies. These policies were not laws. If somebody breached a policy what happened to them? You, the business, didn't conduct a legal trial and then issue punishments that included jail. I'm sure the Captain of whatever Navy ship he was on had 'poilicies'. Maybe something like, "Enlisted ranks may pee only over the starboard side of the ship." Important stuff. If he, Luddite, pee'd over the port side, some Ensign would chew his ass for a bit, but the Chief Petty Officer would say, "**** it." -- "The modern definition of 'racist' is someone who's winning an argument with a liberal." ....Peter Brimelow (Author) (Thanks, Luddite!) |
Conflicted
On Thu, 04 Dec 2014 10:24:32 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 12/4/2014 10:13 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 4 Dec 2014 07:47:30 -0500, BAR wrote: In article , says... So now I have questions. The guy who was killed in New York was resisting. May not have been physical, but certainly was verbal. He was not cooperating with or obeying the commands of the police. For that he could be found guilty of resisting arrest. Different issue: One of the cops applied a choke hold. The medical examiner's report indicated that it contributed to Garner's death which was determined to be a homicide. A choke hold in NY is not permitted under any circumstances per NYPD policy. It is considered to be excessive force. Questions: Is the choke therefore against the law? No, a policy is not a law. If so, didn't the cop break the law? No, policies are not laws. If so, the law is black or white. You either break it or you don't. Policies are not law. If the cop broke the law how can he be found to be not accountable for a homicide? Again, policies are not law. Not trying to be cute here. I don't know the answers to these questions. When you had your companies you may have implemented policies. These policies were not laws. If somebody breached a policy what happened to them? You, the business, didn't conduct a legal trial and then issue punishments that included jail. I'm sure the Captain of whatever Navy ship he was on had 'poilicies'. Maybe something like, "Enlisted ranks may pee only over the starboard side of the ship." Important stuff. If he, Luddite, pee'd over the port side, some Ensign would chew his ass for a bit, but the Chief Petty Officer would say, "**** it." Never knew a single Ensign who would dare question the ruling or advice of a CPO. Come to think of it can't think of a Captain or Admiral either. Then that right there is futher proof that you didn't know *any* really stupid Ensigns. -- "The modern definition of 'racist' is someone who's winning an argument with a liberal." ....Peter Brimelow (Author) (Thanks, Luddite!) |
Conflicted
On 12/4/2014 10:38 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 04 Dec 2014 10:24:32 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 12/4/2014 10:13 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 4 Dec 2014 07:47:30 -0500, BAR wrote: In article , says... So now I have questions. The guy who was killed in New York was resisting. May not have been physical, but certainly was verbal. He was not cooperating with or obeying the commands of the police. For that he could be found guilty of resisting arrest. Different issue: One of the cops applied a choke hold. The medical examiner's report indicated that it contributed to Garner's death which was determined to be a homicide. A choke hold in NY is not permitted under any circumstances per NYPD policy. It is considered to be excessive force. Questions: Is the choke therefore against the law? No, a policy is not a law. If so, didn't the cop break the law? No, policies are not laws. If so, the law is black or white. You either break it or you don't. Policies are not law. If the cop broke the law how can he be found to be not accountable for a homicide? Again, policies are not law. Not trying to be cute here. I don't know the answers to these questions. When you had your companies you may have implemented policies. These policies were not laws. If somebody breached a policy what happened to them? You, the business, didn't conduct a legal trial and then issue punishments that included jail. I'm sure the Captain of whatever Navy ship he was on had 'poilicies'. Maybe something like, "Enlisted ranks may pee only over the starboard side of the ship." Important stuff. If he, Luddite, pee'd over the port side, some Ensign would chew his ass for a bit, but the Chief Petty Officer would say, "**** it." Never knew a single Ensign who would dare question the ruling or advice of a CPO. Come to think of it can't think of a Captain or Admiral either. Then that right there is futher proof that you didn't know *any* really stupid Ensigns. No, but I have a few very funny ensign stories though. |
Conflicted
Speaking of CPO's my cousins step uncle was a CPO . Salty old geezer. Stationed on the USS John Hood in the early 60s from what I can remember. He was 6'1" and shaped like a wedge on legs. But from what I gather he was a just and fair man. But wether from above or below, nobody gave him any crap.
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Conflicted
On 12/4/2014 11:58 AM, Tim wrote:
Speaking of CPO's my cousins step uncle was a CPO . Salty old geezer. Stationed on the USS John Hood in the early 60s from what I can remember. He was 6'1" and shaped like a wedge on legs. But from what I gather he was a just and fair man. But wether from above or below, nobody gave him any crap. Chief Petty Officers are the backbone of the Navy. Everyone, including Commanding Officers, have a high level of respect for them and will give them a wide berth in many situations, allowing them to resolve problems or issues among the crew. |
Conflicted
On 12/4/2014 12:18 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 04 Dec 2014 04:48:01 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 12/4/2014 12:29 AM, wrote: On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 22:03:45 -0500, Wayne.B wrote: Easy, mace and/or a taser. I have seen large adult men running in circles, screaming like babies and running into trees after being maced with the military stuff. I have also seen guys who just got mad when they were pepper sprayed, They don't use "Mace" anymore (CN or CS gas depending on the brand) it is pepper spray now. My former father in law (DC cop) said mace was only good to blind the guy for a second so you could get in a couple good licks with your night stick. ;-) There's a reason that in the old days the image of a police officer was a smiling, blue uniformed dude walking down the sidewalk twirling his night stick. I've mentioned before that I learned how effective a night stick can be while standing Shore Patrol duty in the Navy. A quick blow to the shins will drop just about anyone without causing any permanent damage. They sent me to the Marine E5/E6 club with an SP arm band while I was in Norfolk in instructor school. The first thing I did was take that pretty white club off my belt and tell the bar manager to put it behind the bar. When the manager asked me why I said I didn't want one of these drunk gunny sargents to shove it up my ass. He laughed and said "I think I am going to like you" There was some kind of fight about once an hour in that place. I was able to simply talk them into taking their fights across the street to the field where they were allowed to do it. (Norfolk city property, off club property) By the end of the first night I was pretty much accepted and I was requested back the next night. I agree the Garner thing might have been able to be handled better but if he does not want to be arrested, they need to do something. With all of his health problems, a taser or pepper spray could have easily killed him too and it might not even work. I'd say you were lucky. Dealing with drunks on the strip at Norfolk or even Great Lakes wasn't fun duty. The biggest brawl I ever saw was at the club at the base in Ponce, Puerto Rico. The USS Ponce (a Marine troop transport) pulled into the port in Ponce for a liberty call. That evening the EM club filled up with Marines from the ship along with the regular Navy personnel stationed at the Fort Allen transmitter site. My wife was working at the club as a waitress at the time, so I got a job as a bartender, just to keep an eye on her. The evening started out fine. The club filled up with lots of heavy drinking going on. Then, one of the Marines who had been making a lot of loud, obnoxious comments started grabbing at my wife. A few of my friends saw it and came to her rescue, knocking the guy off his chair and onto the floor. One yelled to me (I was behind the bar not looking at what was going on because I was getting someone a beer from the cooler). I turned to see what he was yelling and a beer bottle flew by my head, smashing into some bottles on the bar shelf. I jumped over the bar, grabbed my wife and pulled her back behind the bar and told her to stay put, kneeling down on the floor mat and went back to go after the guy that had been grabbing at her. (I was young and stupid then). By then the whole frigin' place was like a bar brawl in an old western movie. People swinging at everyone, chairs being thrown and bottles flying. I have to say that the Navy guys didn't do too badly against the Marines. We outnumbered them but not by much. It finally ended with both Navy and Marine Shore Patrol arriving. I don't know where they all came from but they were there in force. There were guys out cold laying all over the place. I've never experienced anything like it since. |
Conflicted
"Mr. Luddite" wrote:
On 12/4/2014 10:38 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 04 Dec 2014 10:24:32 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 12/4/2014 10:13 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Thu, 4 Dec 2014 07:47:30 -0500, BAR wrote: In article , says... So now I have questions. The guy who was killed in New York was resisting. May not have been physical, but certainly was verbal. He was not cooperating with or obeying the commands of the police. For that he could be found guilty of resisting arrest. Different issue: One of the cops applied a choke hold. The medical examiner's report indicated that it contributed to Garner's death which was determined to be a homicide. A choke hold in NY is not permitted under any circumstances per NYPD policy. It is considered to be excessive force. Questions: Is the choke therefore against the law? No, a policy is not a law. If so, didn't the cop break the law? No, policies are not laws. If so, the law is black or white. You either break it or you don't. Policies are not law. If the cop broke the law how can he be found to be not accountable for a homicide? Again, policies are not law. Not trying to be cute here. I don't know the answers to these questions. When you had your companies you may have implemented policies. These policies were not laws. If somebody breached a policy what happened to them? You, the business, didn't conduct a legal trial and then issue punishments that included jail. I'm sure the Captain of whatever Navy ship he was on had 'poilicies'. Maybe something like, "Enlisted ranks may pee only over the starboard side of the ship." Important stuff. If he, Luddite, pee'd over the port side, some Ensign would chew his ass for a bit, but the Chief Petty Officer would say, "**** it." Never knew a single Ensign who would dare question the ruling or advice of a CPO. Come to think of it can't think of a Captain or Admiral either. Then that right there is futher proof that you didn't know *any* really stupid Ensigns. No, but I have a few very funny ensign stories though. You could write a sequel to Mr. Roberts. |
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