On 11/1/2014 11:44 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 06:58:03 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 11/1/2014 1:44 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 21:19:40 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/31/2014 8:49 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 13:02:04 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Raises another question. Ever wonder why a new gun comes with a spent
shell in the box or case?

To test functionality. And/Or, to build a database of gun "fingerprints", i.e. bullet striations. That info, along with registration, can lead back to the owner.

I have never bought a gun with a case in the box.
I do question the validity of all of these ballistic fingerprint
things if the gun has been used a lot. I agree that if they have the
gun and a recently fired bullet or case, they usually can match them
up but if this gun has several thousand rounds of barrel erosion and
the slings and arrows of dirty ammo going through it, matching up
tool marks from the day it was made is going to be far from exact.

I bet the difference between S/N xxxxx1 and xxxxx2 brand new is less
than xxxx1 to xxxx1 after years of hard use. If the same tool cut the
rifling, won't the tool marks be very close to the same?




Interesting. When was the last time you bought a new gun?

Every gun I have purchased in the past 3-4 years has an envelope with a
spent round casing that was fired from the gun at the factory.

It's also mandatory that new guns come with some type of lock.

Is this a MA thing or is it true everywhere?


Certainly does not seem to be true in Florida. Maybe the dealers just
remove it if the manufacturer puts them in there.
The 9mm I bought recently had a trigger lock but it is a joke. A 10
year old with a fingernail file could pop it off.



I'd like to see a trigger lock like that. The ones I have (gun
manufacturer supplied) are pretty well made and substantial.
I took the Ruger 10/22 to the range once and forgot the key.
No way could I or anyone else remove the trigger lock unless we
destroyed something (like the rifle).


This thing is made of plastic. If I get a minute I will give this a
look and see what the easiest way to get it off would be. Obviously I
have tools in the garage that will take just about anything off.

The chamber locks supplied by the gun manufacturers are also pretty high
quality. Sure, maybe a heavy bolt cutter or half an hour with a hack
saw would work but again, the purpose of a trigger or chamber lock is to
help prevent accidental discharge of the firearm by the owner or an
inquisitive visitor when stored in your home. They are not designed to
prevent theft.

10 seconds with a side grinder?


The locks are *required* ... again by law. Even if you purchase a used
firearm from a licensed dealer up here, the dealer is required to
furnish a lock.


I still do not see the value. If your kid is going to be a problem
around your gun, the trigger lock does not prevent access to the gun,
they can play with the gun and the lock just becomes a puzzle for him
and his friends.

When I google how to remove a trigger lock I get hits for the various
brands. Most seem to be destructive of the lock but if you stole the
gun, so what? I would also be curious how hard it is to simply pick
the lock. The one I have looks pretty trivial but I did not spend any
time really looking at it.



I'll repeat again. The locks are *NOT* designed to prevent or even
dissuade theft. They are to help prevent accidental discharge.

The ones I have been supplied are not cheap plastic either. The trigger
lock is metal and would take anyone a while to figure out how to get it
off without the key. A kid that found it in the house (if you were
stupid enough to leave it laying around) isn't going to get it off in
10 seconds, 10 minutes or 10 hours.

The range I shoot at provides cheap plastic chamber "locks".
You are supposed to insert them and lay your gun down on the firing
table whenever the range is down while someone is placing targets, etc.

Not too many people insert them. They just lay the gun on the table and
step back.

On 11/1/2014 12:08 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/1/2014 11:44 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 06:58:03 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 11/1/2014 1:44 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 21:19:40 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/31/2014 8:49 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 13:02:04 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Raises another question. Ever wonder why a new gun comes with a
spent
shell in the box or case?

To test functionality. And/Or, to build a database of gun
"fingerprints", i.e. bullet striations. That info, along with
registration, can lead back to the owner.

I have never bought a gun with a case in the box.
I do question the validity of all of these ballistic fingerprint
things if the gun has been used a lot. I agree that if they have the
gun and a recently fired bullet or case, they usually can match them
up but if this gun has several thousand rounds of barrel erosion and
the slings and arrows of dirty ammo going through it, matching up
tool marks from the day it was made is going to be far from exact.

I bet the difference between S/N xxxxx1 and xxxxx2 brand new is less
than xxxx1 to xxxx1 after years of hard use. If the same tool cut the
rifling, won't the tool marks be very close to the same?




Interesting. When was the last time you bought a new gun?

Every gun I have purchased in the past 3-4 years has an envelope
with a
spent round casing that was fired from the gun at the factory.

It's also mandatory that new guns come with some type of lock.

Is this a MA thing or is it true everywhere?


Certainly does not seem to be true in Florida. Maybe the dealers just
remove it if the manufacturer puts them in there.
The 9mm I bought recently had a trigger lock but it is a joke. A 10
year old with a fingernail file could pop it off.



I'd like to see a trigger lock like that. The ones I have (gun
manufacturer supplied) are pretty well made and substantial.
I took the Ruger 10/22 to the range once and forgot the key.
No way could I or anyone else remove the trigger lock unless we
destroyed something (like the rifle).


This thing is made of plastic. If I get a minute I will give this a
look and see what the easiest way to get it off would be. Obviously I
have tools in the garage that will take just about anything off.

The chamber locks supplied by the gun manufacturers are also pretty high
quality. Sure, maybe a heavy bolt cutter or half an hour with a hack
saw would work but again, the purpose of a trigger or chamber lock is to
help prevent accidental discharge of the firearm by the owner or an
inquisitive visitor when stored in your home. They are not designed to
prevent theft.

10 seconds with a side grinder?


The locks are *required* ... again by law. Even if you purchase a used
firearm from a licensed dealer up here, the dealer is required to
furnish a lock.


I still do not see the value. If your kid is going to be a problem
around your gun, the trigger lock does not prevent access to the gun,
they can play with the gun and the lock just becomes a puzzle for him
and his friends.

When I google how to remove a trigger lock I get hits for the various
brands. Most seem to be destructive of the lock but if you stole the
gun, so what? I would also be curious how hard it is to simply pick
the lock. The one I have looks pretty trivial but I did not spend any
time really looking at it.



I'll repeat again. The locks are *NOT* designed to prevent or even
dissuade theft. They are to help prevent accidental discharge.

We agree on that, locks only keep honest people honest like my dad used
to say.


The ones I have been supplied are not cheap plastic either. The trigger
lock is metal and would take anyone a while to figure out how to get it
off without the key. A kid that found it in the house (if you were
stupid enough to leave it laying around) isn't going to get it off in
10 seconds, 10 minutes or 10 hours.

Again, I agree. Youtube all you want, then try it. I tried to Youtube a
lock for our trailer, the technique, perfectly applied failed miserably.
When I was a kid I decided that since I kept losing house keys, I would
just make a pic set and learn to pick the locks around the house. I was
always pretty good with tools and such, had a friend who helped me make
the tools (his dad did locksmithing) but never actually had success with
a 5 pin houselock and rakepick.... Furthermore, I suggest if somebody
thinks Youtube is so good, look up starting fires without matches then
go into the wilderness without matches and see how it goes.. it's just
not as easy as it is edited to look... My dad was a scoutmaster, I got
to the rank of Life and camped all of my life. I do not remember
actually ever being successful with "rubbing two sticks together" even
though I know how to do it....

The range I shoot at provides cheap plastic chamber "locks".
You are supposed to insert them and lay your gun down on the firing
table whenever the range is down while someone is placing targets, etc.

Not too many people insert them. They just lay the gun on the table and
step back.



That is unacceptable and pretty stupid of the range operator, negligent
at it's worst. Seriously, take a cell phone pic of that to protect
yourself or someone else in case of accident.

It's like safety flagging a race. When I run a crew, cell phones are not
allowed on the track cause if one person catches even a random shot of a
flagger on the phone reading a text on raceday and someone gets hurt on
the track that day, we could be ****ed. Doesn't matter if the race was
even going on when the flagger was looking at the screen cause really,
you may not be able to prove that from a photo, but the plaintiff could
easily prove a flagger was pre-occupied during the race... and that
would be low hanging fruit for any jury...

wrote:
On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 15:01:23 -0400, KC wrote:

Again, I agree. Youtube all you want, then try it. I tried to Youtube a
lock for our trailer, the technique, perfectly applied failed miserably.
When I was a kid I decided that since I kept losing house keys, I would
just make a pic set and learn to pick the locks around the house. I was
always pretty good with tools and such, had a friend who helped me make
the tools (his dad did locksmithing) but never actually had success with
a 5 pin houselock and rakepick...

Lock picking just takes the touch,. Once you get the hang of it, you
can do it.
You put tension on the cylinder and probe each pin, feeling for the
spot that it lines up, when you get them all, the lock turns.
A high quality "pin" lock, where the tolerances are tight, can be
tough, those with the wafers like a desk drawer lock are trivial.
They have vibrating picks that are a lot easier to use

Or you just make a bump key ;-)

Some of the door locks are really hard to pick, as they have a notch in the
pin to defeat the pressure method. But lots of locks are easy to pick.
When I started at NCR we all made lock picks to open registers that the
customer lost the keys, and we did not want to go to the office to get a
copy.

wrote:
On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 01:58:46 -0600, Califbill
wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 15:01:23 -0400, KC wrote:

Again, I agree. Youtube all you want, then try it. I tried to Youtube a
lock for our trailer, the technique, perfectly applied failed miserably.
When I was a kid I decided that since I kept losing house keys, I would
just make a pic set and learn to pick the locks around the house. I was
always pretty good with tools and such, had a friend who helped me make
the tools (his dad did locksmithing) but never actually had success with
a 5 pin houselock and rakepick...

Lock picking just takes the touch,. Once you get the hang of it, you
can do it.
You put tension on the cylinder and probe each pin, feeling for the
spot that it lines up, when you get them all, the lock turns.
A high quality "pin" lock, where the tolerances are tight, can be
tough, those with the wafers like a desk drawer lock are trivial.
They have vibrating picks that are a lot easier to use

Or you just make a bump key ;-)

Some of the door locks are really hard to pick, as they have a notch in the
pin to defeat the pressure method. But lots of locks are easy to pick.
When I started at NCR we all made lock picks to open registers that the
customer lost the keys, and we did not want to go to the office to get a
copy.

The IBM register locks were the wafer design and very easy to pick. I
imagine NCR used the same type of lock.
I think we only had about 12 keys anyway. I carried 2 on my key chain
that opened about half the registers in Ft Myers.

I still have a ring of about 50 different keys. Over the years the keys
were different sizes.

On Sat, 1 Nov 2014 13:48:27 -0400, BAR wrote:

Not too many people insert them. They just lay the gun on the table and
step back.

===

That means the RSO (Range Safety Officer) is not doing their job.

On 11/1/2014 2:25 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sat, 1 Nov 2014 13:48:27 -0400, BAR wrote:

Not too many people insert them. They just lay the gun on the table and
step back.

===

That means the RSO (Range Safety Officer) is not doing their job.



The only time I've seen one of the RSO's walking around is on weekends
when the range is fairly busy. During the weekdays there is rarely one
around. The range isn't busy either.

On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 15:12:12 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 11/1/2014 2:25 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sat, 1 Nov 2014 13:48:27 -0400, BAR wrote:

Not too many people insert them. They just lay the gun on the table and
step back.

===

That means the RSO (Range Safety Officer) is not doing their job.



The only time I've seen one of the RSO's walking around is on weekends
when the range is fairly busy. During the weekdays there is rarely one
around. The range isn't busy either.


My range has RSOs on duty constantly - in a glassed-in room right
behind the firing lines. If one of them sees a problem he's at the
lane getting it corrected.

On Sat, 1 Nov 2014 13:48:27 -0400, BAR wrote:

In article ,
says...

On 11/1/2014 11:44 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 06:58:03 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 11/1/2014 1:44 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 21:19:40 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/31/2014 8:49 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 13:02:04 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Raises another question. Ever wonder why a new gun comes with a spent
shell in the box or case?

To test functionality. And/Or, to build a database of gun "fingerprints", i.e. bullet striations. That info, along with registration, can lead back to the owner.

I have never bought a gun with a case in the box.
I do question the validity of all of these ballistic fingerprint
things if the gun has been used a lot. I agree that if they have the
gun and a recently fired bullet or case, they usually can match them
up but if this gun has several thousand rounds of barrel erosion and
the slings and arrows of dirty ammo going through it, matching up
tool marks from the day it was made is going to be far from exact.

I bet the difference between S/N xxxxx1 and xxxxx2 brand new is less
than xxxx1 to xxxx1 after years of hard use. If the same tool cut the
rifling, won't the tool marks be very close to the same?




Interesting. When was the last time you bought a new gun?

Every gun I have purchased in the past 3-4 years has an envelope with a
spent round casing that was fired from the gun at the factory.

It's also mandatory that new guns come with some type of lock.

Is this a MA thing or is it true everywhere?


Certainly does not seem to be true in Florida. Maybe the dealers just
remove it if the manufacturer puts them in there.
The 9mm I bought recently had a trigger lock but it is a joke. A 10
year old with a fingernail file could pop it off.



I'd like to see a trigger lock like that. The ones I have (gun
manufacturer supplied) are pretty well made and substantial.
I took the Ruger 10/22 to the range once and forgot the key.
No way could I or anyone else remove the trigger lock unless we
destroyed something (like the rifle).


This thing is made of plastic. If I get a minute I will give this a
look and see what the easiest way to get it off would be. Obviously I
have tools in the garage that will take just about anything off.

The chamber locks supplied by the gun manufacturers are also pretty high
quality. Sure, maybe a heavy bolt cutter or half an hour with a hack
saw would work but again, the purpose of a trigger or chamber lock is to
help prevent accidental discharge of the firearm by the owner or an
inquisitive visitor when stored in your home. They are not designed to
prevent theft.

10 seconds with a side grinder?


The locks are *required* ... again by law. Even if you purchase a used
firearm from a licensed dealer up here, the dealer is required to
furnish a lock.


I still do not see the value. If your kid is going to be a problem
around your gun, the trigger lock does not prevent access to the gun,
they can play with the gun and the lock just becomes a puzzle for him
and his friends.

When I google how to remove a trigger lock I get hits for the various
brands. Most seem to be destructive of the lock but if you stole the
gun, so what? I would also be curious how hard it is to simply pick
the lock. The one I have looks pretty trivial but I did not spend any
time really looking at it.



I'll repeat again. The locks are *NOT* designed to prevent or even
dissuade theft. They are to help prevent accidental discharge.

The ones I have been supplied are not cheap plastic either. The trigger
lock is metal and would take anyone a while to figure out how to get it
off without the key. A kid that found it in the house (if you were
stupid enough to leave it laying around) isn't going to get it off in
10 seconds, 10 minutes or 10 hours.

10 seconds is a generous amount of time. The standard trigger lock
regarless of what is it made of is very easy to get off of a firearm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKfYCCEH0Y4

The range I shoot at provides cheap plastic chamber "locks".
You are supposed to insert them and lay your gun down on the firing
table whenever the range is down while someone is placing targets, etc.

Are you talking about a chamber lock or a chamber block. The chamber
block is effective ini letting people know that the chamber lock is in
the firearm and if properly inserted will show that the firearm has no
round in the chamber.

Not too many people insert them. They just lay the gun on the table and
step back.

Most people will drop the magazine and lock the slide to the rear
leaving the chamber open. After I am doen firing the rounds in the mag,
I drop the magazine, visually check the chamber and then put the firearm
down and lay it on its left side.

If you ever shoot at Quantico, be sure to take the chamber blocks.
They will not let you put the gun down and clear your position without
one in the chamber.

On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 14:31:07 -0400, Poco Loco
wrote:

If you ever shoot at Quantico, be sure to take the chamber blocks.
They will not let you put the gun down and clear your position without
one in the chamber.

===

Same at my range, at least during formal events.

On 11/1/2014 1:48 PM, BAR wrote:
In article ,
says...

On 11/1/2014 11:44 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 06:58:03 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 11/1/2014 1:44 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 21:19:40 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/31/2014 8:49 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 13:02:04 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Raises another question. Ever wonder why a new gun comes with a spent
shell in the box or case?

To test functionality. And/Or, to build a database of gun "fingerprints", i.e. bullet striations. That info, along with registration, can lead back to the owner.

I have never bought a gun with a case in the box.
I do question the validity of all of these ballistic fingerprint
things if the gun has been used a lot. I agree that if they have the
gun and a recently fired bullet or case, they usually can match them
up but if this gun has several thousand rounds of barrel erosion and
the slings and arrows of dirty ammo going through it, matching up
tool marks from the day it was made is going to be far from exact.

I bet the difference between S/N xxxxx1 and xxxxx2 brand new is less
than xxxx1 to xxxx1 after years of hard use. If the same tool cut the
rifling, won't the tool marks be very close to the same?




Interesting. When was the last time you bought a new gun?

Every gun I have purchased in the past 3-4 years has an envelope with a
spent round casing that was fired from the gun at the factory.

It's also mandatory that new guns come with some type of lock.

Is this a MA thing or is it true everywhere?


Certainly does not seem to be true in Florida. Maybe the dealers just
remove it if the manufacturer puts them in there.
The 9mm I bought recently had a trigger lock but it is a joke. A 10
year old with a fingernail file could pop it off.



I'd like to see a trigger lock like that. The ones I have (gun
manufacturer supplied) are pretty well made and substantial.
I took the Ruger 10/22 to the range once and forgot the key.
No way could I or anyone else remove the trigger lock unless we
destroyed something (like the rifle).


This thing is made of plastic. If I get a minute I will give this a
look and see what the easiest way to get it off would be. Obviously I
have tools in the garage that will take just about anything off.

The chamber locks supplied by the gun manufacturers are also pretty high
quality. Sure, maybe a heavy bolt cutter or half an hour with a hack
saw would work but again, the purpose of a trigger or chamber lock is to
help prevent accidental discharge of the firearm by the owner or an
inquisitive visitor when stored in your home. They are not designed to
prevent theft.

10 seconds with a side grinder?


The locks are *required* ... again by law. Even if you purchase a used
firearm from a licensed dealer up here, the dealer is required to
furnish a lock.


I still do not see the value. If your kid is going to be a problem
around your gun, the trigger lock does not prevent access to the gun,
they can play with the gun and the lock just becomes a puzzle for him
and his friends.

When I google how to remove a trigger lock I get hits for the various
brands. Most seem to be destructive of the lock but if you stole the
gun, so what? I would also be curious how hard it is to simply pick
the lock. The one I have looks pretty trivial but I did not spend any
time really looking at it.



I'll repeat again. The locks are *NOT* designed to prevent or even
dissuade theft. They are to help prevent accidental discharge.

The ones I have been supplied are not cheap plastic either. The trigger
lock is metal and would take anyone a while to figure out how to get it
off without the key. A kid that found it in the house (if you were
stupid enough to leave it laying around) isn't going to get it off in
10 seconds, 10 minutes or 10 hours.

10 seconds is a generous amount of time. The standard trigger lock
regarless of what is it made of is very easy to get off of a firearm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKfYCCEH0Y4



I don't know but it almost seems the lock is designed that way ...
meaning there's a relatively easy method of taking it off if you lose
the key (if you know how to do it).

A kid or someone who doesn't know how to do it isn't going to get it off
in 10 seconds. Even the guy in the video didn't.

Point again is: They are made to help prevent accidental discharge ...
not theft.