Grimes in Kentucky
 

On 10/13/2014 4:39 PM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 10/13/14 4:20 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/13/2014 3:26 PM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 10/13/14 3:00 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/13/2014 2:28 PM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 10/13/14 2:08 PM, Boating All Out wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 13:17:32 -0500, Boating All Out
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 18:22:02 -0500, Boating All Out
wrote:

**** Turkey too.

**** NATO too? Putin will like that.

Who said anything about NATO?
The context of that comment was "Who gives a **** about Turkey?"
You do understand it's a Muslim country, don't you?
What's that punk Putin got to to do with any of this?
You guys seem to be afraid of him.
A great man once said, "The only thing we have to fear is fear
itself."

Turkey is a member of NATO. It is just a fact.

A flounder is a flatfish that lays in the sand at the bottom of the
sea.
Fact.




Turkey is not a Muslim country. The majority of its citizens are
Muslim,
but it is a secular nation. The majority of the citizens of the United
States are Christians, but the United States also is a secular nation.

Of course, to know that about Turkey, you'd have to have read some
history, and, as we all know, history is a liberal arts field of
study,
and therefore of no interest to Greg Fretwell.



Don't know about that. I've learned more about the history of the
Middle East reading his posts than I ever learned in college.




Then, I'm afraid, you still know very little about the history of the
Middle East. Greg simply dismisses much of the Jewish history in that
area going back thousands and hundreds of years in order to present and
promote the Arab point of view and he conveniently pays no attention to
the roles of the Arabs in World War I and World War II, the fall of the
Ottoman Empire and the division of Muslim lands. The Jews have been in
the Holy Land for thousands of years, almost non-interrupted. Even after
Herod's death, when Israel was divided up by the Romans, there were
still Jews there, and there were Jews there under the Ottoman Empire.



I admit my prior knowledge of Middle East history is very limited. These
discussions have provided the impetus to go read about it though.
Still far from understanding it all but I know enough to realize that
there's "history" and there's "beliefs".




A lot of "history" is little more than the writing down of "beliefs,"
but I know you know that.

In contemporary times, since you and I have been alive, the Israeli Jews
have turned a desolate chunk of land into a modern, functioning
democracy with thriving business, industry, agriculture, educational and
research institutions and a military. The Palestinians, on the other
hand, have done very little with the territory they control and their
leaders seem to do little more than urge their people to be patient
until the day they can push the Jews into the Mediterranean.

The Israelis have been helped by benefactors abroad, but the wealth of
Jews around the world pales in comparison to the wealth of the
oil-soaked Arabs, who have helped the Palestinians eke out a survival
but not build themselves a viable country. But, then, most of the
non-oil-soaked Arab Muslim countries in that part of the world have not
done much nation building for themselves. The rich live well, of course,
but everyone else lives in squalor.

The Muslim Arabs seem unwilling to turn on their leaders who do little
but exploit them.


That was true of China for many years also following WWII. The general
populace were treated like mushrooms. Keep 'em in the dark and feed
them manure.

I recall my history professor (back in the late 70's while attending
night school) making the point that once the Chinese had a taste of
freedom and free enterprise the government would start to lose control.
Seeing it beginning to happen in Hong Kong now and despite Internet
controls the rest of China is starting to take notice.

I've mentioned before that I visited the PRC back in 1986 when the
Chinese government was "experimenting" with some elements of a
capitalistic driven economy. My company was invited to explore "joint
venture" opportunities. The provinces selected for the experiment were
purposely picked based on their remoteness and being somewhat isolated
from the more populated areas. Each meeting was attended by government
representatives along with university faculty, some students and hand
picked local businesses.

I've checked to see what that area is like now, 28 years later. Wuxi,
China is now a bustling major city and is considered the "birthplace" of
modern Chinese industry. When I visited it was a very poor area, filled
with people on bicycles and bicycle repair shops.

Grimes in Kentucky
 

F*O*A*D wrote:
On 10/13/14 3:00 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/13/2014 2:28 PM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 10/13/14 2:08 PM, Boating All Out wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 13:17:32 -0500, Boating All Out
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 18:22:02 -0500, Boating All Out
wrote:

**** Turkey too.

**** NATO too? Putin will like that.

Who said anything about NATO?
The context of that comment was "Who gives a **** about Turkey?"
You do understand it's a Muslim country, don't you?
What's that punk Putin got to to do with any of this?
You guys seem to be afraid of him.
A great man once said, "The only thing we have to fear is fear
itself."

Turkey is a member of NATO. It is just a fact.

A flounder is a flatfish that lays in the sand at the bottom of the sea.
Fact.




Turkey is not a Muslim country. The majority of its citizens are Muslim,
but it is a secular nation. The majority of the citizens of the United
States are Christians, but the United States also is a secular nation.

Of course, to know that about Turkey, you'd have to have read some
history, and, as we all know, history is a liberal arts field of study,
and therefore of no interest to Greg Fretwell.



Don't know about that. I've learned more about the history of the
Middle East reading his posts than I ever learned in college.




Then, I'm afraid, you still know very little about the history of the
Middle East. Greg simply dismisses much of the Jewish history in that
area going back thousands and hundreds of years in order to present and
promote the Arab point of view and he conveniently pays no attention to
the roles of the Arabs in World War I and World War II, the fall of the
Ottoman Empire and the division of Muslim lands. The Jews have been in
the Holy Land for thousands of years, almost non-interrupted. Even after
Herod's death, when Israel was divided up by the Romans, there were still
Jews there, and there were Jews there under the Ottoman Empire.



The locals had been there for millennia also. Maybe they are taking there
talking points from the founders of Israel. Take the land via violence.

Grimes in Kentucky
 

On 10/13/14 5:44 PM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 10/13/14 3:00 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/13/2014 2:28 PM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 10/13/14 2:08 PM, Boating All Out wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 13:17:32 -0500, Boating All Out
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 18:22:02 -0500, Boating All Out
wrote:

**** Turkey too.

**** NATO too? Putin will like that.

Who said anything about NATO?
The context of that comment was "Who gives a **** about Turkey?"
You do understand it's a Muslim country, don't you?
What's that punk Putin got to to do with any of this?
You guys seem to be afraid of him.
A great man once said, "The only thing we have to fear is fear
itself."

Turkey is a member of NATO. It is just a fact.

A flounder is a flatfish that lays in the sand at the bottom of the sea.
Fact.




Turkey is not a Muslim country. The majority of its citizens are Muslim,
but it is a secular nation. The majority of the citizens of the United
States are Christians, but the United States also is a secular nation.

Of course, to know that about Turkey, you'd have to have read some
history, and, as we all know, history is a liberal arts field of study,
and therefore of no interest to Greg Fretwell.



Don't know about that. I've learned more about the history of the
Middle East reading his posts than I ever learned in college.




Then, I'm afraid, you still know very little about the history of the
Middle East. Greg simply dismisses much of the Jewish history in that
area going back thousands and hundreds of years in order to present and
promote the Arab point of view and he conveniently pays no attention to
the roles of the Arabs in World War I and World War II, the fall of the
Ottoman Empire and the division of Muslim lands. The Jews have been in
the Holy Land for thousands of years, almost non-interrupted. Even after
Herod's death, when Israel was divided up by the Romans, there were still
Jews there, and there were Jews there under the Ottoman Empire.



The locals had been there for millennia also. Maybe they are taking there
talking points from the founders of Israel. Take the land via violence.


Or maybe they are taking their lessons from the founders of the United
States.

--
The new GOP credo:

Hate the people who are being oppressed,
love the people who are doing the oppressing.

Grimes in Kentucky
 

On 10/13/2014 8:55 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 13 Oct 2014 15:00:00 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/13/2014 2:28 PM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 10/13/14 2:08 PM, Boating All Out wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 13:17:32 -0500, Boating All Out
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 18:22:02 -0500, Boating All Out
wrote:

**** Turkey too.

**** NATO too? Putin will like that.

Who said anything about NATO?
The context of that comment was "Who gives a **** about Turkey?"
You do understand it's a Muslim country, don't you?
What's that punk Putin got to to do with any of this?
You guys seem to be afraid of him.
A great man once said, "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."

Turkey is a member of NATO. It is just a fact.

A flounder is a flatfish that lays in the sand at the bottom of the sea.
Fact.




Turkey is not a Muslim country. The majority of its citizens are Muslim,
but it is a secular nation. The majority of the citizens of the United
States are Christians, but the United States also is a secular nation.

Of course, to know that about Turkey, you'd have to have read some
history, and, as we all know, history is a liberal arts field of study,
and therefore of no interest to Greg Fretwell.



Don't know about that. I've learned more about the history of the
Middle East reading his posts than I ever learned in college.


Debating here should be a college course, at least if you want to use
facts..

I know a lot more than I did a few years ago too.
I will be honest, most of it is on the internet, if you are willing to
dig a little deeper than wikipedia and the top 10 hits on google

Sometimes I spend a half hour or more or reading to write a paragraph
because you get crucified if you are wrong.
I write it off to intellectual curiosity and it doesn't cost me a
dime.


The Internet is amazing. It floors me to think of how we used to do
research on a subject.

In some ways it was better though. Spending hours in the library was a
great way to meet girls.

Grimes in Kentucky
 

On 10/13/2014 9:21 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 13 Oct 2014 16:27:48 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

He also is hatched with eyes on both sides of his head but one of them
eventually migrates so both eyes are on the same side. Limits his field
of view of all around him.

It sounds like a guy we know in Maryland. He only sees one side too.


:-) At least you got it.

Grimes in Kentucky
 

In article ,
says...

On Mon, 13 Oct 2014 13:08:21 -0500, Boating All Out
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 13:17:32 -0500, Boating All Out
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 18:22:02 -0500, Boating All Out
wrote:

**** Turkey too.

**** NATO too? Putin will like that.

Who said anything about NATO?
The context of that comment was "Who gives a **** about Turkey?"
You do understand it's a Muslim country, don't you?
What's that punk Putin got to to do with any of this?
You guys seem to be afraid of him.
A great man once said, "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."

Turkey is a member of NATO. It is just a fact.

A flounder is a flatfish that lays in the sand at the bottom of the sea.
Fact.

Non responsive.


What, you don't like that I'm not agreeing with you?
I said "**** Turkey" and start you talking about NATO.

Are you saying we can renege on our NATO treaty because Turkey is
muslim?


NATO treaties don't even enter into it. Yet. I just said "**** Turkey."
And the U.S can in many ways. That's the way it works.
Why are you so worried about Putin and NATO?
Thought this was about ISIS.

Maybe you need to study history a little. Start with the Cuban Missile
Crisis.

Oh la-de-da. I don't need history lessons from you.
Already heard from you all our ills can be traced back to
Roosevelt/Truman.
Ha.

Grimes in Kentucky
 

F*O*A*D wrote:
On 10/13/14 5:44 PM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 10/13/14 3:00 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/13/2014 2:28 PM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 10/13/14 2:08 PM, Boating All Out wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 13:17:32 -0500, Boating All Out
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 18:22:02 -0500, Boating All Out
wrote:

**** Turkey too.

**** NATO too? Putin will like that.

Who said anything about NATO?
The context of that comment was "Who gives a **** about Turkey?"
You do understand it's a Muslim country, don't you?
What's that punk Putin got to to do with any of this?
You guys seem to be afraid of him.
A great man once said, "The only thing we have to fear is fear
itself."

Turkey is a member of NATO. It is just a fact.

A flounder is a flatfish that lays in the sand at the bottom of the sea.
Fact.




Turkey is not a Muslim country. The majority of its citizens are Muslim,
but it is a secular nation. The majority of the citizens of the United
States are Christians, but the United States also is a secular nation.

Of course, to know that about Turkey, you'd have to have read some
history, and, as we all know, history is a liberal arts field of study,
and therefore of no interest to Greg Fretwell.



Don't know about that. I've learned more about the history of the
Middle East reading his posts than I ever learned in college.




Then, I'm afraid, you still know very little about the history of the
Middle East. Greg simply dismisses much of the Jewish history in that
area going back thousands and hundreds of years in order to present and
promote the Arab point of view and he conveniently pays no attention to
the roles of the Arabs in World War I and World War II, the fall of the
Ottoman Empire and the division of Muslim lands. The Jews have been in
the Holy Land for thousands of years, almost non-interrupted. Even after
Herod's death, when Israel was divided up by the Romans, there were still
Jews there, and there were Jews there under the Ottoman Empire.



The locals had been there for millennia also. Maybe they are taking there
talking points from the founders of Israel. Take the land via violence.


Or maybe they are taking their lessons from the founders of the United States.


Large country, and few natives by the time Europeans arrived. The Spanish
explorers spread lots of killer diseases.

Grimes in Kentucky
 

wrote:
On Mon, 13 Oct 2014 21:20:19 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:



The Internet is amazing. It floors me to think of how we used to do
research on a subject.

In some ways it was better though. Spending hours in the library was a
great way to meet girls.


I went to an all boys school. The library wasn't near as much fun ;-)

I do really like the internet tho.

Back in the olden days,if you want to do something like research a
Supreme Court decision, you needed a $100,000 law library and you also
needed to have a pretty good idea where to look.
Now you can find the decision in minutes, if not seconds.
There are also many sources of interpretation because sometimes the
logic can be somewhat convoluted, depending on who wrote it.

I loved the library growing up also. Plus the internet is easier. I had
access to both the small library a few blocks from my hose, but in high
school we used Cal Berkeley's library. In those days, you could even park
on campus by the library.

Grimes in Kentucky
 

In article ,
says...


What, you don't like that I'm not agreeing with you?
I said "**** Turkey" and start you talking about NATO.

How can you separate Turkey from NATO?


Are you saying we can renege on our NATO treaty because Turkey is
muslim?


NATO treaties don't even enter into it. Yet. I just said "**** Turkey."
And the U.S can in many ways. That's the way it works.
Why are you so worried about Putin and NATO?
Thought this was about ISIS.

Turkey is a NATO member and we are committed by treaty to come to
their aid if they are attacked, along with virtually all of Europe.
Are you saying they are of a lesser class of NATO member than UK or
Germany?


I don't know why you're talking about NATO here.
This is when you first started going on about NATO.

---
Luddite:
Meanwhile, our fellow NATO member Turkey sits on the sidelines, not
willing to fight unless we put troops in.

Me:
"Training" Arabs is the military's idea. It's silly.
**** Turkey too.
---

So it was obviously said in the context of Turkey wanting us to put U.S.
fighting troops into Syria and Iraq.
You might say "Okay, we'll do it." I say **** Turkey.
I have no idea why you're taking about NATO.
I already told you Turkey is a Muslim country.
Muslim countries destroy themselves from within.
That's what's happening in Syria, and that's what's happening in Iraq.
Even the ISIS punks aren't stupid enough to attack Turkey's borders.
If Turkey is "attacked" it will be from within, a civil war.
NATO can do absolutely nothing about that. So much for NATO.
I don't think that necessarily will happen with Turkey, but who knows?
If it does happen and ISIS wins Turkey, NATO will expel them and they
too will say "**** Turkey."

Maybe you need to study history a little. Start with the Cuban Missile
Crisis.

Oh la-de-da. I don't need history lessons from you.
Already heard from you all our ills can be traced back to
Roosevelt/Truman.
Ha.


Unneeded history snipped as irrelevent
Because the Cuban missile crisis has nothing to do with ISIS.

Grimes in Kentucky
 

On 10/14/14 12:12 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 14 Oct 2014 01:57:09 -0500, Boating All Out
wrote:

In article ,
says...


What, you don't like that I'm not agreeing with you?
I said "**** Turkey" and start you talking about NATO.

How can you separate Turkey from NATO?


Are you saying we can renege on our NATO treaty because Turkey is
muslim?


NATO treaties don't even enter into it. Yet. I just said "**** Turkey."
And the U.S can in many ways. That's the way it works.
Why are you so worried about Putin and NATO?
Thought this was about ISIS.

Turkey is a NATO member and we are committed by treaty to come to
their aid if they are attacked, along with virtually all of Europe.
Are you saying they are of a lesser class of NATO member than UK or
Germany?


I don't know why you're talking about NATO here.
This is when you first started going on about NATO.

---
Luddite:
Meanwhile, our fellow NATO member Turkey sits on the sidelines, not
willing to fight unless we put troops in.

Me:
"Training" Arabs is the military's idea. It's silly.
**** Turkey too.
---

So it was obviously said in the context of Turkey wanting us to put U.S.
fighting troops into Syria and Iraq.
You might say "Okay, we'll do it." I say **** Turkey.
I have no idea why you're taking about NATO.
I already told you Turkey is a Muslim country.
Muslim countries destroy themselves from within.
That's what's happening in Syria, and that's what's happening in Iraq.
Even the ISIS punks aren't stupid enough to attack Turkey's borders.
If Turkey is "attacked" it will be from within, a civil war.
NATO can do absolutely nothing about that. So much for NATO.
I don't think that necessarily will happen with Turkey, but who knows?
If it does happen and ISIS wins Turkey, NATO will expel them and they
too will say "**** Turkey."



OK **** Turkey but they are the closest thing to an ally we have in
the whole damned middle east.




Right, because Israel isn't an ally of the United States
because...they're Jews, not Druze.

--
The new GOP credo:

Hate the people who are being oppressed,
love the people who are doing the oppressing.