If you are looking for a terrific...
 

On 8/31/2014 7:09 AM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/30/14 11:25 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 23:07:21 -0400, Roger wrote:

The arrows are for your non-shooting friends? Do you lend out your
firearms? Why do you want a suppressor for a .22LR?

I suppose it is to shoot critters that are eating his wife's
ornimentals without disturbing the neighbors.


Right, because I haven't posted here more than 1,000 times that I don't
shoot critters.

And who is Roger? Yet another right-wing asshole with a handle change?
Looks like a contender for my bozo bin.

"A lie in every post". Is that your creed to live by?

If you are looking for a terrific...
 

On 8/31/14 11:17 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 31 Aug 2014 08:15:09 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 8/31/14 3:28 AM, Califbill wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 13:16:49 -0500, Harrold wrote:

On 8/30/2014 12:14 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 12:00:44 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

Another of our weird regs concerns AR-15s. If you buy one fully
assembled, it has to be one of only a couple of HBAR models. You can,
however, buy a fully assembled lower.

I guess I just never had the "black gun" thing.
I like wood and full power 30 cal if I am buying a center fire rifle.
I understand the attraction for the military but I am not packing 600
rounds into a fire fight, nor is my intent to inflict grievous wounds

I wonder what Harry's need for or attraction to military weaponry is?
Back in the sixties when Uncle Sam would have appreciated him picking up
a gun and serving his country, Harry preferred to seek a scholars
deferment to attend a third rate school for girls in, of all places, Kansas.

My point exactly. He could have stepped up and they would have given
him a M16-A1 and let him shoot gooks with it. Now he lives that life
vicariously shooting Evian bottles.

He would have been one of two things in the service. Clerk, or paper
pusher or cannon fodder. That liberal arts degree would not get a skilled
position. Why I got to fix radar on airplanes instead of jungle fighting.
Had skills that counted.



D'oh. I felt no desire to "serve" the brutal right-wing dictatorship in
Vietnam, or the equally corrupt pols who followed in its footsteps.

I think it is nice that you and Fretwell managed to avoid the shooting
war by hiding out fixing radar and cruising on coast guard ships.
FlaJim, of course, also avoided the shooting war. Brave boys, all of your,

It wasn't because I didn't try. I volunteered twice for the river
boats, once in the navy and once in the CG. My requests were denied.



It doesn't really matter, does it? I mean, I tried to get a job as a bra
fitter at Victoria's Secret, but my requests were denied.

It's pretty easy being a mustered out soldier-sailor-marine-airman who
never saw a firefight only to play a big, brave UseNet Warrior here.
Even our resident John Bircher, Bertie Robbins, who talks about being a
Marine, never saw overseas duty and was exposed to the dangers
of...paper cuts.

Big whoop.

If you are looking for a terrific...
 

On Sun, 31 Aug 2014 09:59:51 -0500, Harrold wrote:

My point exactly. He could have stepped up and they would have given
him a M16-A1 and let him shoot gooks with it. Now he lives that life
vicariously shooting Evian bottles.

Harry is a "wannabe" in many areas.

Harriet is a used to be wannabe. His time for making anything of himself
has past.

===

Funny stuff, unqualified to be anything but an asshat. ~snerk~

If you are looking for a terrific...
 

On Sun, 31 Aug 2014 10:02:46 -0500, Harrold wrote:

On 8/30/2014 10:07 PM, Roger wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/30/14 7:36 AM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/30/14 12:04 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2014 15:27:26 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Fri, 29 Aug 2014 13:31:51 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

... .22LR rifle, PSA has a pretty good sale on these this weekend:

http://tinyurl.com/opnxuaq

The $299 price is $50 to $100 less than these usually sell for.
Terrific
rifle, very accurate right out of the box, looks and size just
like my
standard AR 15 other than the slightly smaller in diameter barrel.
Much
more accurate than the more common Ruger .22LR rifles.

Here's a snap of mags from each of the rifles, a 10-round PMAG for my
.223 Rem AR 15, and the 25-round S&W mag for the .22LR

http://tinyurl.com/otkdvot

===

I don't see anything about optics. Does it have a Weaver rail that
will acept a standard scope mount? Can the trigger be customized?

It does say "quad rail" so I assume they mean the forward hand guard
is a quad picatinny rail.
The good news it takes anything "Weaver" but it won't take a regular
.22 "tip off" scope unless you put longer screws on it.

I still do not see the allure of this kind of gun unless you are
channeling some Vietnam war fantasy.


The M&P 15-22 will accept a lot of AR "accessories" without modification
to either. I have a scope I use on mine with an "AR type" mount. The
front and rear sights that come standard with the rifle are the
removable AR sights that slide right on or off the rail. An AR
aftermarket trigger will drop in, as will an AR stock and an AR
handgrip. I changed the handgrip on mine to a Hogue model I like better.
I also installed an ambi safety. I still have the stock trigger, which
seems ok to me.

The "allure" to me was the rifle's light weight, ergonomics, accuracy
out of the box. It's easy for me to shoot it accurately off-hand. You'd
have to spend a lot of money on a Ruger 10/22 to get it to shoot as
accurately off-hand as the M&P 15-22.

There are a ka-zillion different firearms out there. Obviously, allure
is in the mind of the beholder.


Here's a photo of mine:

http://tinyurl.com/m68gjgj

Shows scope, scope mount, Hogue grip, empty 25-round mag (with arrow
for my non-shooting friends..(as in, this part points towards the
muzzle when you load up :) ), right-hand side of ambi safety (just
above and to rear of trigger). Flash suppressor on barrel muzzle will
be removed when my sound suppressor paperwork comes back (takes two to
three months, I am told). Sometimes I fasten a red dot to the rails.




The arrows are for your non-shooting friends? Do you lend out your
firearms? Why do you want a suppressor for a .22LR?

Only one reason I can think of.

===

If Harry's sheriff runs even a modest background check, it is unlikely
that he'll get approval for a suppressor. Most of us think that his
claim to having a Marland CCW permit is total BS.

If you are looking for a terrific...
 

On Sun, 31 Aug 2014 11:23:26 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

I think it is nice that you and Fretwell managed to avoid the shooting
war by hiding out fixing radar and cruising on coast guard ships.
FlaJim, of course, also avoided the shooting war. Brave boys, all of your,

It wasn't because I didn't try. I volunteered twice for the river
boats, once in the navy and once in the CG. My requests were denied.



It doesn't really matter, does it? I mean, I tried to get a job as a bra
fitter at Victoria's Secret, but my requests were denied.

It's pretty easy being a mustered out soldier-sailor-marine-airman who
never saw a firefight only to play a big, brave UseNet Warrior here.
Even our resident John Bircher, Bertie Robbins, who talks about being a
Marine, never saw overseas duty and was exposed to the dangers
of...paper cuts.

Big whoop.

===

Says our resident asshat.

So Harry, how are you doing with the IRS these days? Have they
agreed to give you some walking around money while you're paying off
those tax liens? Are you still fraudulently conveying assets to your
wife? That's a crime as you may know.

If you are looking for a terrific...
 

F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/31/14 11:17 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 31 Aug 2014 08:15:09 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 8/31/14 3:28 AM, Califbill wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 13:16:49 -0500, Harrold wrote:

On 8/30/2014 12:14 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 12:00:44 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

Another of our weird regs concerns AR-15s. If you buy one fully
assembled, it has to be one of only a couple of HBAR models. You can,
however, buy a fully assembled lower.

I guess I just never had the "black gun" thing.
I like wood and full power 30 cal if I am buying a center fire rifle.
I understand the attraction for the military but I am not packing 600
rounds into a fire fight, nor is my intent to inflict grievous wounds

I wonder what Harry's need for or attraction to military weaponry is?
Back in the sixties when Uncle Sam would have appreciated him picking up
a gun and serving his country, Harry preferred to seek a scholars
deferment to attend a third rate school for girls in, of all places, Kansas.

My point exactly. He could have stepped up and they would have given
him a M16-A1 and let him shoot gooks with it. Now he lives that life
vicariously shooting Evian bottles.

He would have been one of two things in the service. Clerk, or paper
pusher or cannon fodder. That liberal arts degree would not get a skilled
position. Why I got to fix radar on airplanes instead of jungle fighting.
Had skills that counted.



D'oh. I felt no desire to "serve" the brutal right-wing dictatorship in
Vietnam, or the equally corrupt pols who followed in its footsteps.

I think it is nice that you and Fretwell managed to avoid the shooting
war by hiding out fixing radar and cruising on coast guard ships.
FlaJim, of course, also avoided the shooting war. Brave boys, all of your,

It wasn't because I didn't try. I volunteered twice for the river
boats, once in the navy and once in the CG. My requests were denied.



It doesn't really matter, does it? I mean, I tried to get a job as a bra
fitter at Victoria's Secret, but my requests were denied.

It's pretty easy being a mustered out soldier-sailor-marine-airman who
never saw a firefight only to play a big, brave UseNet Warrior here. Even
our resident John Bircher, Bertie Robbins, who talks about being a
Marine, never saw overseas duty and was exposed to the dangers of...paper cuts.

Big whoop.

We all got trained for that firefight! Well maybe not Al Gore.

If you are looking for a terrific...
 

F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/31/14 3:28 AM, Califbill wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 13:46:34 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 8/30/14 1:14 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 12:00:44 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

Another of our weird regs concerns AR-15s. If you buy one fully
assembled, it has to be one of only a couple of HBAR models. You can,
however, buy a fully assembled lower.

I guess I just never had the "black gun" thing.
I like wood and full power 30 cal if I am buying a center fire rifle.
I understand the attraction for the military but I am not packing 600
rounds into a fire fight, nor is my intent to inflict grievous wounds


Right, because everyone knows a 30-30 or .308 won't inflict grievous
wounds. I like the AR platform because the rifles are easy to customize
and maintain, and, for me, at least, they are accurate enough and, of
course, I only inflict "grievous wounds" on plastic and aluminum bottles
and cans and paper target. Besides, .308 ammo, American-made in brass
casings, is twice as expensive or more than brass-cased U.S.-made .223
REM ammo, and 30-30 Win is even more expensive.

You brought up 30-30 but 308/30-06 is the round of choice for snipers
who want one shot one kill. The 5.56 is designed to take the guy out
of the fight but make him a casualty who needs 2 guys to care for him.
(western European thinking)
That worked until we started fighting people who didn't give a ****
about a wounded soldier.

Price? I can get 7,.65-51 for about the same price as 5,56

The m16 was for close in work, lighter to carry, and did not climb in auto
fire. Not worth **** in open area battles. Need that 308/30.06 range and
power there.



You base this on what, your extensive experience as a Usenet Commando,
like the other mustered out soldiers here?

You never even served, and you have knowledge?

If you are looking for a terrific...
 

F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/31/14 3:28 AM, Califbill wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 13:16:49 -0500, Harrold wrote:

On 8/30/2014 12:14 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 12:00:44 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

Another of our weird regs concerns AR-15s. If you buy one fully
assembled, it has to be one of only a couple of HBAR models. You can,
however, buy a fully assembled lower.

I guess I just never had the "black gun" thing.
I like wood and full power 30 cal if I am buying a center fire rifle.
I understand the attraction for the military but I am not packing 600
rounds into a fire fight, nor is my intent to inflict grievous wounds

I wonder what Harry's need for or attraction to military weaponry is?
Back in the sixties when Uncle Sam would have appreciated him picking up
a gun and serving his country, Harry preferred to seek a scholars
deferment to attend a third rate school for girls in, of all places, Kansas.

My point exactly. He could have stepped up and they would have given
him a M16-A1 and let him shoot gooks with it. Now he lives that life
vicariously shooting Evian bottles.

He would have been one of two things in the service. Clerk, or paper
pusher or cannon fodder. That liberal arts degree would not get a skilled
position. Why I got to fix radar on airplanes instead of jungle fighting.
Had skills that counted.



D'oh. I felt no desire to "serve" the brutal right-wing dictatorship in
Vietnam, or the equally corrupt pols who followed in its footsteps.

I think it is nice that you and Fretwell managed to avoid the shooting
war by hiding out fixing radar and cruising on coast guard ships. FlaJim,
of course, also avoided the shooting war. Brave boys, all of your,

You, being a Democrat flunky, should have stepped up and supported your
party. LBJ wanted you,

If you are looking for a terrific...
 

On 8/31/14 12:26 PM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/31/14 3:28 AM, Califbill wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 13:46:34 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 8/30/14 1:14 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 12:00:44 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

Another of our weird regs concerns AR-15s. If you buy one fully
assembled, it has to be one of only a couple of HBAR models. You can,
however, buy a fully assembled lower.

I guess I just never had the "black gun" thing.
I like wood and full power 30 cal if I am buying a center fire rifle.
I understand the attraction for the military but I am not packing 600
rounds into a fire fight, nor is my intent to inflict grievous wounds


Right, because everyone knows a 30-30 or .308 won't inflict grievous
wounds. I like the AR platform because the rifles are easy to customize
and maintain, and, for me, at least, they are accurate enough and, of
course, I only inflict "grievous wounds" on plastic and aluminum bottles
and cans and paper target. Besides, .308 ammo, American-made in brass
casings, is twice as expensive or more than brass-cased U.S.-made .223
REM ammo, and 30-30 Win is even more expensive.

You brought up 30-30 but 308/30-06 is the round of choice for snipers
who want one shot one kill. The 5.56 is designed to take the guy out
of the fight but make him a casualty who needs 2 guys to care for him.
(western European thinking)
That worked until we started fighting people who didn't give a ****
about a wounded soldier.

Price? I can get 7,.65-51 for about the same price as 5,56

The m16 was for close in work, lighter to carry, and did not climb in auto
fire. Not worth **** in open area battles. Need that 308/30.06 range and
power there.



You base this on what, your extensive experience as a Usenet Commando,
like the other mustered out soldiers here?

You never even served, and you have knowledge?



If you believe that the M16 was "not worth ****" in open area battles,
then you either read that, saw a movie about it, or were told that. Your
opinion isn't based upon experience.

If you are looking for a terrific...
 

On 8/31/14 12:26 PM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/31/14 3:28 AM, Califbill wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 13:16:49 -0500, Harrold wrote:

On 8/30/2014 12:14 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 12:00:44 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

Another of our weird regs concerns AR-15s. If you buy one fully
assembled, it has to be one of only a couple of HBAR models. You can,
however, buy a fully assembled lower.

I guess I just never had the "black gun" thing.
I like wood and full power 30 cal if I am buying a center fire rifle.
I understand the attraction for the military but I am not packing 600
rounds into a fire fight, nor is my intent to inflict grievous wounds

I wonder what Harry's need for or attraction to military weaponry is?
Back in the sixties when Uncle Sam would have appreciated him picking up
a gun and serving his country, Harry preferred to seek a scholars
deferment to attend a third rate school for girls in, of all places, Kansas.

My point exactly. He could have stepped up and they would have given
him a M16-A1 and let him shoot gooks with it. Now he lives that life
vicariously shooting Evian bottles.

He would have been one of two things in the service. Clerk, or paper
pusher or cannon fodder. That liberal arts degree would not get a skilled
position. Why I got to fix radar on airplanes instead of jungle fighting.
Had skills that counted.



D'oh. I felt no desire to "serve" the brutal right-wing dictatorship in
Vietnam, or the equally corrupt pols who followed in its footsteps.

I think it is nice that you and Fretwell managed to avoid the shooting
war by hiding out fixing radar and cruising on coast guard ships. FlaJim,
of course, also avoided the shooting war. Brave boys, all of your,

You, being a Democrat flunky, should have stepped up and supported your
party. LBJ wanted you,


That's just another in your never-ending series of really stupid remarks.

If you are looking for a terrific...
 

On 8/31/14 12:26 PM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/31/14 11:17 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 31 Aug 2014 08:15:09 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 8/31/14 3:28 AM, Califbill wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 13:16:49 -0500, Harrold wrote:

On 8/30/2014 12:14 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 12:00:44 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

Another of our weird regs concerns AR-15s. If you buy one fully
assembled, it has to be one of only a couple of HBAR models. You can,
however, buy a fully assembled lower.

I guess I just never had the "black gun" thing.
I like wood and full power 30 cal if I am buying a center fire rifle.
I understand the attraction for the military but I am not packing 600
rounds into a fire fight, nor is my intent to inflict grievous wounds

I wonder what Harry's need for or attraction to military weaponry is?
Back in the sixties when Uncle Sam would have appreciated him picking up
a gun and serving his country, Harry preferred to seek a scholars
deferment to attend a third rate school for girls in, of all places, Kansas.

My point exactly. He could have stepped up and they would have given
him a M16-A1 and let him shoot gooks with it. Now he lives that life
vicariously shooting Evian bottles.

He would have been one of two things in the service. Clerk, or paper
pusher or cannon fodder. That liberal arts degree would not get a skilled
position. Why I got to fix radar on airplanes instead of jungle fighting.
Had skills that counted.



D'oh. I felt no desire to "serve" the brutal right-wing dictatorship in
Vietnam, or the equally corrupt pols who followed in its footsteps.

I think it is nice that you and Fretwell managed to avoid the shooting
war by hiding out fixing radar and cruising on coast guard ships.
FlaJim, of course, also avoided the shooting war. Brave boys, all of your,

It wasn't because I didn't try. I volunteered twice for the river
boats, once in the navy and once in the CG. My requests were denied.



It doesn't really matter, does it? I mean, I tried to get a job as a bra
fitter at Victoria's Secret, but my requests were denied.

It's pretty easy being a mustered out soldier-sailor-marine-airman who
never saw a firefight only to play a big, brave UseNet Warrior here. Even
our resident John Bircher, Bertie Robbins, who talks about being a
Marine, never saw overseas duty and was exposed to the dangers of...paper cuts.

Big whoop.

We all got trained for that firefight! Well maybe not Al Gore.


Yeah, so big deal. I had a lot of training as a bra remover. Doesn't
mean Vicky's Secret will hire me, eh?

If you are looking for a terrific...
 

On 8/31/14 1:05 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 31 Aug 2014 12:39:38 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:


Yeah, so big deal. I had a lot of training as a bra remover. Doesn't
mean Vicky's Secret will hire me, eh?

How long have you been wearing a bra? Matching panties too?



Whoosh.

If you are looking for a terrific...
 

On 8/31/2014 11:39 AM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/31/14 12:26 PM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/31/14 11:17 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 31 Aug 2014 08:15:09 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 8/31/14 3:28 AM, Califbill wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 13:16:49 -0500, Harrold
wrote:

On 8/30/2014 12:14 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 12:00:44 -0400, F*O*A*D
wrote:

Another of our weird regs concerns AR-15s. If you buy one fully
assembled, it has to be one of only a couple of HBAR models.
You can,
however, buy a fully assembled lower.

I guess I just never had the "black gun" thing.
I like wood and full power 30 cal if I am buying a center fire
rifle.
I understand the attraction for the military but I am not
packing 600
rounds into a fire fight, nor is my intent to inflict grievous
wounds

I wonder what Harry's need for or attraction to military
weaponry is?
Back in the sixties when Uncle Sam would have appreciated him
picking up
a gun and serving his country, Harry preferred to seek a scholars
deferment to attend a third rate school for girls in, of all
places, Kansas.

My point exactly. He could have stepped up and they would have given
him a M16-A1 and let him shoot gooks with it. Now he lives that life
vicariously shooting Evian bottles.

He would have been one of two things in the service. Clerk, or paper
pusher or cannon fodder. That liberal arts degree would not get a
skilled
position. Why I got to fix radar on airplanes instead of jungle
fighting.
Had skills that counted.



D'oh. I felt no desire to "serve" the brutal right-wing
dictatorship in
Vietnam, or the equally corrupt pols who followed in its footsteps.

I think it is nice that you and Fretwell managed to avoid the shooting
war by hiding out fixing radar and cruising on coast guard ships.
FlaJim, of course, also avoided the shooting war. Brave boys, all
of your,

It wasn't because I didn't try. I volunteered twice for the river
boats, once in the navy and once in the CG. My requests were denied.



It doesn't really matter, does it? I mean, I tried to get a job as a bra
fitter at Victoria's Secret, but my requests were denied.

It's pretty easy being a mustered out soldier-sailor-marine-airman who
never saw a firefight only to play a big, brave UseNet Warrior here.
Even
our resident John Bircher, Bertie Robbins, who talks about being a
Marine, never saw overseas duty and was exposed to the dangers
of...paper cuts.

Big whoop.

We all got trained for that firefight! Well maybe not Al Gore.


Yeah, so big deal. I had a lot of training as a bra remover. Doesn't
mean Vicky's Secret will hire me, eh?
Your Mama taught you?

If you are looking for a terrific...
 

On 8/31/14 1:53 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 31 Aug 2014 13:11:44 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

Yeah, so big deal. I had a lot of training as a bra remover. Doesn't
mean Vicky's Secret will hire me, eh?

How long have you been wearing a bra? Matching panties too?



Whoosh.

You are the one who steered an assault rifle thread to a lingerie
conversation. I was just trying to understand your fascination.



As a heterosexual male with liberal arts degrees, I appreciate
good-looking women in lingerie.

If you are looking for a terrific...
 

On 8/31/2014 2:18 PM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/31/14 1:53 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 31 Aug 2014 13:11:44 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

Yeah, so big deal. I had a lot of training as a bra remover. Doesn't
mean Vicky's Secret will hire me, eh?

How long have you been wearing a bra? Matching panties too?



Whoosh.

You are the one who steered an assault rifle thread to a lingerie
conversation. I was just trying to understand your fascination.



As a heterosexual male with liberal arts degrees, I appreciate
good-looking women in lingerie.

Thanks for clearing that up. We had our doubts. ;-)

If you are looking for a terrific...
 

F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/30/14 11:25 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 23:07:21 -0400, Roger wrote:

The arrows are for your non-shooting friends? Do you lend out your
firearms? Why do you want a suppressor for a .22LR?

I suppose it is to shoot critters that are eating his wife's
ornimentals without disturbing the neighbors.


Right, because I haven't posted here more than 1,000 times that I
don't shoot critters.

And who is Roger? Yet another right-wing asshole with a handle change?
Looks like a contender for my bozo bin.

What kind of question is that? I've lurked here and there but as a
fellow gun and boat owner I jumped in with some valid questions. You
don't have to answer them but you also don't have to label me.

If you are looking for a terrific...
 

On Sun, 31 Aug 2014 22:00:50 -0400, Roger wrote:

F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/30/14 11:25 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 23:07:21 -0400, Roger wrote:

The arrows are for your non-shooting friends? Do you lend out your
firearms? Why do you want a suppressor for a .22LR?

I suppose it is to shoot critters that are eating his wife's
ornimentals without disturbing the neighbors.


Right, because I haven't posted here more than 1,000 times that I
don't shoot critters.

And who is Roger? Yet another right-wing asshole with a handle change?
Looks like a contender for my bozo bin.

What kind of question is that? I've lurked here and there but as a
fellow gun and boat owner I jumped in with some valid questions. You
don't have to answer them but you also don't have to label me.

===

Harry, aka FOAD, may be a gun owner but his boat ownership is
extremely dubious.

If you are looking for a terrific...
 

Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 31 Aug 2014 22:00:50 -0400, Roger wrote:

F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/30/14 11:25 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 23:07:21 -0400, Roger wrote:

The arrows are for your non-shooting friends? Do you lend out your
firearms? Why do you want a suppressor for a .22LR?
I suppose it is to shoot critters that are eating his wife's
ornimentals without disturbing the neighbors.

Right, because I haven't posted here more than 1,000 times that I
don't shoot critters.

And who is Roger? Yet another right-wing asshole with a handle change?
Looks like a contender for my bozo bin.

What kind of question is that? I've lurked here and there but as a
fellow gun and boat owner I jumped in with some valid questions. You
don't have to answer them but you also don't have to label me.
===

Harry, aka FOAD, may be a gun owner but his boat ownership is
extremely dubious.

I've read that but I gave him the benefit of the doubt.

If you are looking for a terrific...
 

F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/31/14 1:05 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 31 Aug 2014 12:39:38 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:


Yeah, so big deal. I had a lot of training as a bra remover. Doesn't
mean Vicky's Secret will hire me, eh?

How long have you been wearing a bra? Matching panties too?



Whoosh.

Whoosh!

If you are looking for a terrific...
 

F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/31/14 1:53 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 31 Aug 2014 13:11:44 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

Yeah, so big deal. I had a lot of training as a bra remover. Doesn't
mean Vicky's Secret will hire me, eh?

How long have you been wearing a bra? Matching panties too?



Whoosh.

You are the one who steered an assault rifle thread to a lingerie
conversation. I was just trying to understand your fascination.



As a heterosexual male with liberal arts degrees, I appreciate
good-looking women in lingerie.

Sounds more like a jealous homosexual.

If you are looking for a terrific...
 

F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/31/14 12:26 PM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/31/14 11:17 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 31 Aug 2014 08:15:09 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 8/31/14 3:28 AM, Califbill wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 13:16:49 -0500, Harrold wrote:

On 8/30/2014 12:14 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 12:00:44 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

Another of our weird regs concerns AR-15s. If you buy one fully
assembled, it has to be one of only a couple of HBAR models. You can,
however, buy a fully assembled lower.

I guess I just never had the "black gun" thing.
I like wood and full power 30 cal if I am buying a center fire rifle.
I understand the attraction for the military but I am not packing 600
rounds into a fire fight, nor is my intent to inflict grievous wounds

I wonder what Harry's need for or attraction to military weaponry is?
Back in the sixties when Uncle Sam would have appreciated him picking up
a gun and serving his country, Harry preferred to seek a scholars
deferment to attend a third rate school for girls in, of all places, Kansas.

My point exactly. He could have stepped up and they would have given
him a M16-A1 and let him shoot gooks with it. Now he lives that life
vicariously shooting Evian bottles.

He would have been one of two things in the service. Clerk, or paper
pusher or cannon fodder. That liberal arts degree would not get a skilled
position. Why I got to fix radar on airplanes instead of jungle fighting.
Had skills that counted.



D'oh. I felt no desire to "serve" the brutal right-wing dictatorship in
Vietnam, or the equally corrupt pols who followed in its footsteps.

I think it is nice that you and Fretwell managed to avoid the shooting
war by hiding out fixing radar and cruising on coast guard ships.
FlaJim, of course, also avoided the shooting war. Brave boys, all of your,

It wasn't because I didn't try. I volunteered twice for the river
boats, once in the navy and once in the CG. My requests were denied.



It doesn't really matter, does it? I mean, I tried to get a job as a bra
fitter at Victoria's Secret, but my requests were denied.

It's pretty easy being a mustered out soldier-sailor-marine-airman who
never saw a firefight only to play a big, brave UseNet Warrior here. Even
our resident John Bircher, Bertie Robbins, who talks about being a
Marine, never saw overseas duty and was exposed to the dangers of...paper cuts.

Big whoop.

We all got trained for that firefight! Well maybe not Al Gore.


Yeah, so big deal. I had a lot of training as a bra remover. Doesn't mean
Vicky's Secret will hire me, eh?

So you wear a bra. A fat old fart, is not the image VS wants to project.

If you are looking for a terrific...
 

F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/31/14 12:26 PM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/31/14 3:28 AM, Califbill wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 13:16:49 -0500, Harrold wrote:

On 8/30/2014 12:14 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 12:00:44 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

Another of our weird regs concerns AR-15s. If you buy one fully
assembled, it has to be one of only a couple of HBAR models. You can,
however, buy a fully assembled lower.

I guess I just never had the "black gun" thing.
I like wood and full power 30 cal if I am buying a center fire rifle.
I understand the attraction for the military but I am not packing 600
rounds into a fire fight, nor is my intent to inflict grievous wounds

I wonder what Harry's need for or attraction to military weaponry is?
Back in the sixties when Uncle Sam would have appreciated him picking up
a gun and serving his country, Harry preferred to seek a scholars
deferment to attend a third rate school for girls in, of all places, Kansas.

My point exactly. He could have stepped up and they would have given
him a M16-A1 and let him shoot gooks with it. Now he lives that life
vicariously shooting Evian bottles.

He would have been one of two things in the service. Clerk, or paper
pusher or cannon fodder. That liberal arts degree would not get a skilled
position. Why I got to fix radar on airplanes instead of jungle fighting.
Had skills that counted.



D'oh. I felt no desire to "serve" the brutal right-wing dictatorship in
Vietnam, or the equally corrupt pols who followed in its footsteps.

I think it is nice that you and Fretwell managed to avoid the shooting
war by hiding out fixing radar and cruising on coast guard ships. FlaJim,
of course, also avoided the shooting war. Brave boys, all of your,

You, being a Democrat flunky, should have stepped up and supported your
party. LBJ wanted you,


That's just another in your never-ending series of really stupid remarks.

You seem to think all those Dem POTUS were great.

If you are looking for a terrific...
 

F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/31/14 12:26 PM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/31/14 3:28 AM, Califbill wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 13:46:34 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 8/30/14 1:14 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 12:00:44 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

Another of our weird regs concerns AR-15s. If you buy one fully
assembled, it has to be one of only a couple of HBAR models. You can,
however, buy a fully assembled lower.

I guess I just never had the "black gun" thing.
I like wood and full power 30 cal if I am buying a center fire rifle.
I understand the attraction for the military but I am not packing 600
rounds into a fire fight, nor is my intent to inflict grievous wounds


Right, because everyone knows a 30-30 or .308 won't inflict grievous
wounds. I like the AR platform because the rifles are easy to customize
and maintain, and, for me, at least, they are accurate enough and, of
course, I only inflict "grievous wounds" on plastic and aluminum bottles
and cans and paper target. Besides, .308 ammo, American-made in brass
casings, is twice as expensive or more than brass-cased U.S.-made .223
REM ammo, and 30-30 Win is even more expensive.

You brought up 30-30 but 308/30-06 is the round of choice for snipers
who want one shot one kill. The 5.56 is designed to take the guy out
of the fight but make him a casualty who needs 2 guys to care for him.
(western European thinking)
That worked until we started fighting people who didn't give a ****
about a wounded soldier.

Price? I can get 7,.65-51 for about the same price as 5,56

The m16 was for close in work, lighter to carry, and did not climb in auto
fire. Not worth **** in open area battles. Need that 308/30.06 range and
power there.



You base this on what, your extensive experience as a Usenet Commando,
like the other mustered out soldiers here?

You never even served, and you have knowledge?



If you believe that the M16 was "not worth ****" in open area battles,
then you either read that, saw a movie about it, or were told that. Your
opinion isn't based upon experience.

Bull****. The bullet is small and lightweight. Afghanistan is long range
shooting. Is why the military is breaking out the 'm14's. Open areas not
being an opening in the wild jungle or the urban jungle. The fact the
Taliban shooter is shooting an older 30 caliber, 180 grain round at 2800
fps muzzle velocity vs. a 56 grain bullet at 3200 FPS. The Taliban shooter
is out ranging the US shooter. Shooting at 500 meters plus. An M4
carbine, just does not cut long range shooting.

If you are looking for a terrific...
 

On 9/1/14 1:20 AM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/31/14 12:26 PM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/31/14 3:28 AM, Califbill wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 13:46:34 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 8/30/14 1:14 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 12:00:44 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

Another of our weird regs concerns AR-15s. If you buy one fully
assembled, it has to be one of only a couple of HBAR models. You can,
however, buy a fully assembled lower.

I guess I just never had the "black gun" thing.
I like wood and full power 30 cal if I am buying a center fire rifle.
I understand the attraction for the military but I am not packing 600
rounds into a fire fight, nor is my intent to inflict grievous wounds


Right, because everyone knows a 30-30 or .308 won't inflict grievous
wounds. I like the AR platform because the rifles are easy to customize
and maintain, and, for me, at least, they are accurate enough and, of
course, I only inflict "grievous wounds" on plastic and aluminum bottles
and cans and paper target. Besides, .308 ammo, American-made in brass
casings, is twice as expensive or more than brass-cased U.S.-made .223
REM ammo, and 30-30 Win is even more expensive.

You brought up 30-30 but 308/30-06 is the round of choice for snipers
who want one shot one kill. The 5.56 is designed to take the guy out
of the fight but make him a casualty who needs 2 guys to care for him.
(western European thinking)
That worked until we started fighting people who didn't give a ****
about a wounded soldier.

Price? I can get 7,.65-51 for about the same price as 5,56

The m16 was for close in work, lighter to carry, and did not climb in auto
fire. Not worth **** in open area battles. Need that 308/30.06 range and
power there.



You base this on what, your extensive experience as a Usenet Commando,
like the other mustered out soldiers here?

You never even served, and you have knowledge?



If you believe that the M16 was "not worth ****" in open area battles,
then you either read that, saw a movie about it, or were told that. Your
opinion isn't based upon experience.

Bull****. The bullet is small and lightweight. Afghanistan is long range
shooting. Is why the military is breaking out the 'm14's. Open areas not
being an opening in the wild jungle or the urban jungle. The fact the
Taliban shooter is shooting an older 30 caliber, 180 grain round at 2800
fps muzzle velocity vs. a 56 grain bullet at 3200 FPS. The Taliban shooter
is out ranging the US shooter. Shooting at 500 meters plus. An M4
carbine, just does not cut long range shooting.



Bull****? I wrote that you have no experience in open battle areas, and
that your opinion was based upon what you read, or saw a movie aboutl or
were told. Once again, Bilious, you demonstrate your inability to read
for content.

If you are looking for a terrific...
 

F*O*A*D wrote:
On 9/1/14 1:20 AM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/31/14 12:26 PM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/31/14 3:28 AM, Califbill wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 13:46:34 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 8/30/14 1:14 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 12:00:44 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

Another of our weird regs concerns AR-15s. If you buy one fully
assembled, it has to be one of only a couple of HBAR models. You can,
however, buy a fully assembled lower.

I guess I just never had the "black gun" thing.
I like wood and full power 30 cal if I am buying a center fire rifle.
I understand the attraction for the military but I am not packing 600
rounds into a fire fight, nor is my intent to inflict grievous wounds


Right, because everyone knows a 30-30 or .308 won't inflict grievous
wounds. I like the AR platform because the rifles are easy to customize
and maintain, and, for me, at least, they are accurate enough and, of
course, I only inflict "grievous wounds" on plastic and aluminum bottles
and cans and paper target. Besides, .308 ammo, American-made in brass
casings, is twice as expensive or more than brass-cased U.S.-made .223
REM ammo, and 30-30 Win is even more expensive.

You brought up 30-30 but 308/30-06 is the round of choice for snipers
who want one shot one kill. The 5.56 is designed to take the guy out
of the fight but make him a casualty who needs 2 guys to care for him.
(western European thinking)
That worked until we started fighting people who didn't give a ****
about a wounded soldier.

Price? I can get 7,.65-51 for about the same price as 5,56

The m16 was for close in work, lighter to carry, and did not climb in auto
fire. Not worth **** in open area battles. Need that 308/30.06 range and
power there.



You base this on what, your extensive experience as a Usenet Commando,
like the other mustered out soldiers here?

You never even served, and you have knowledge?



If you believe that the M16 was "not worth ****" in open area battles,
then you either read that, saw a movie about it, or were told that. Your
opinion isn't based upon experience.

Bull****. The bullet is small and lightweight. Afghanistan is long range
shooting. Is why the military is breaking out the 'm14's. Open areas not
being an opening in the wild jungle or the urban jungle. The fact the
Taliban shooter is shooting an older 30 caliber, 180 grain round at 2800
fps muzzle velocity vs. a 56 grain bullet at 3200 FPS. The Taliban shooter
is out ranging the US shooter. Shooting at 500 meters plus. An M4
carbine, just does not cut long range shooting.



Bull****? I wrote that you have no experience in open battle areas, and
that your opinion was based upon what you read, or saw a movie aboutl or
were told. Once again, Bilious, you demonstrate your inability to read for content.

You seem to think going to school for a Liberal Arts degree, let's you know
all. You have no experience in most of life, except screwing creditors,
etc. I can see he problems with a light weight round in long distance
battles. I have shot the M16 via the military. You?

If you are looking for a terrific...
 

On 9/1/2014 12:25 PM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 9/1/14 1:20 AM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/31/14 12:26 PM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/31/14 3:28 AM, Califbill wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 13:46:34 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 8/30/14 1:14 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 12:00:44 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

Another of our weird regs concerns AR-15s. If you buy one fully
assembled, it has to be one of only a couple of HBAR models. You can,
however, buy a fully assembled lower.

I guess I just never had the "black gun" thing.
I like wood and full power 30 cal if I am buying a center fire rifle.
I understand the attraction for the military but I am not packing 600
rounds into a fire fight, nor is my intent to inflict grievous wounds


Right, because everyone knows a 30-30 or .308 won't inflict grievous
wounds. I like the AR platform because the rifles are easy to customize
and maintain, and, for me, at least, they are accurate enough and, of
course, I only inflict "grievous wounds" on plastic and aluminum bottles
and cans and paper target. Besides, .308 ammo, American-made in brass
casings, is twice as expensive or more than brass-cased U.S.-made .223
REM ammo, and 30-30 Win is even more expensive.

You brought up 30-30 but 308/30-06 is the round of choice for snipers
who want one shot one kill. The 5.56 is designed to take the guy out
of the fight but make him a casualty who needs 2 guys to care for him.
(western European thinking)
That worked until we started fighting people who didn't give a ****
about a wounded soldier.

Price? I can get 7,.65-51 for about the same price as 5,56

The m16 was for close in work, lighter to carry, and did not climb in auto
fire. Not worth **** in open area battles. Need that 308/30.06 range and
power there.



You base this on what, your extensive experience as a Usenet Commando,
like the other mustered out soldiers here?

You never even served, and you have knowledge?



If you believe that the M16 was "not worth ****" in open area battles,
then you either read that, saw a movie about it, or were told that. Your
opinion isn't based upon experience.

Bull****. The bullet is small and lightweight. Afghanistan is long range
shooting. Is why the military is breaking out the 'm14's. Open areas not
being an opening in the wild jungle or the urban jungle. The fact the
Taliban shooter is shooting an older 30 caliber, 180 grain round at 2800
fps muzzle velocity vs. a 56 grain bullet at 3200 FPS. The Taliban shooter
is out ranging the US shooter. Shooting at 500 meters plus. An M4
carbine, just does not cut long range shooting.



Bull****? I wrote that you have no experience in open battle areas, and
that your opinion was based upon what you read, or saw a movie aboutl or
were told. Once again, Bilious, you demonstrate your inability to read for content.

You seem to think going to school for a Liberal Arts degree, let's you know
all. You have no experience in most of life, except screwing creditors,
etc. I can see he problems with a light weight round in long distance
battles. I have shot the M16 via the military. You?


99% of Harry's life experience comes from turning the pages in books.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but he passes his reading off as his
reality.

If you are looking for a terrific...
 

On 9/1/14 1:25 PM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 9/1/14 1:20 AM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/31/14 12:26 PM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/31/14 3:28 AM, Califbill wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 13:46:34 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 8/30/14 1:14 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 12:00:44 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

Another of our weird regs concerns AR-15s. If you buy one fully
assembled, it has to be one of only a couple of HBAR models. You can,
however, buy a fully assembled lower.

I guess I just never had the "black gun" thing.
I like wood and full power 30 cal if I am buying a center fire rifle.
I understand the attraction for the military but I am not packing 600
rounds into a fire fight, nor is my intent to inflict grievous wounds


Right, because everyone knows a 30-30 or .308 won't inflict grievous
wounds. I like the AR platform because the rifles are easy to customize
and maintain, and, for me, at least, they are accurate enough and, of
course, I only inflict "grievous wounds" on plastic and aluminum bottles
and cans and paper target. Besides, .308 ammo, American-made in brass
casings, is twice as expensive or more than brass-cased U.S.-made .223
REM ammo, and 30-30 Win is even more expensive.

You brought up 30-30 but 308/30-06 is the round of choice for snipers
who want one shot one kill. The 5.56 is designed to take the guy out
of the fight but make him a casualty who needs 2 guys to care for him.
(western European thinking)
That worked until we started fighting people who didn't give a ****
about a wounded soldier.

Price? I can get 7,.65-51 for about the same price as 5,56

The m16 was for close in work, lighter to carry, and did not climb in auto
fire. Not worth **** in open area battles. Need that 308/30.06 range and
power there.



You base this on what, your extensive experience as a Usenet Commando,
like the other mustered out soldiers here?

You never even served, and you have knowledge?



If you believe that the M16 was "not worth ****" in open area battles,
then you either read that, saw a movie about it, or were told that. Your
opinion isn't based upon experience.

Bull****. The bullet is small and lightweight. Afghanistan is long range
shooting. Is why the military is breaking out the 'm14's. Open areas not
being an opening in the wild jungle or the urban jungle. The fact the
Taliban shooter is shooting an older 30 caliber, 180 grain round at 2800
fps muzzle velocity vs. a 56 grain bullet at 3200 FPS. The Taliban shooter
is out ranging the US shooter. Shooting at 500 meters plus. An M4
carbine, just does not cut long range shooting.



Bull****? I wrote that you have no experience in open battle areas, and
that your opinion was based upon what you read, or saw a movie aboutl or
were told. Once again, Bilious, you demonstrate your inability to read for content.

You seem to think going to school for a Liberal Arts degree, let's you know
all. You have no experience in most of life, except screwing creditors,
etc. I can see he problems with a light weight round in long distance
battles. I have shot the M16 via the military. You?


No, Bilious, I did not say that having liberal arts degrees "let's you
know all (sic)." What I said was that you have problems reading for
content, as evidenced by the example you provided and upon which I
commented.

Your firing an M16 "via the military" doesn't tell you anything about
having to use a light assault rifle in an "open battle area." I have a
heavy barrel Colt AR-15, and other than not having an "auto fire
capability," it is pretty much the same as the M16. Further, most of the
"enemies" our soldiers might meet on the battlefield these days are
armed with rifles we left behind *or* with variants of the AKs. Indeed,
those rifles fire a heavier round but they are less accurate over long
distances than the M16.

If you are looking for a terrific...
 

On 9/1/2014 12:47 PM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 9/1/14 1:25 PM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 9/1/14 1:20 AM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/31/14 12:26 PM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/31/14 3:28 AM, Califbill wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 13:46:34 -0400, F*O*A*D
wrote:

On 8/30/14 1:14 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 12:00:44 -0400, F*O*A*D
wrote:

Another of our weird regs concerns AR-15s. If you buy one fully
assembled, it has to be one of only a couple of HBAR models.
You can,
however, buy a fully assembled lower.

I guess I just never had the "black gun" thing.
I like wood and full power 30 cal if I am buying a center
fire rifle.
I understand the attraction for the military but I am not
packing 600
rounds into a fire fight, nor is my intent to inflict
grievous wounds


Right, because everyone knows a 30-30 or .308 won't inflict
grievous
wounds. I like the AR platform because the rifles are easy to
customize
and maintain, and, for me, at least, they are accurate enough
and, of
course, I only inflict "grievous wounds" on plastic and
aluminum bottles
and cans and paper target. Besides, .308 ammo, American-made
in brass
casings, is twice as expensive or more than brass-cased
U.S.-made .223
REM ammo, and 30-30 Win is even more expensive.

You brought up 30-30 but 308/30-06 is the round of choice for
snipers
who want one shot one kill. The 5.56 is designed to take the
guy out
of the fight but make him a casualty who needs 2 guys to care
for him.
(western European thinking)
That worked until we started fighting people who didn't give a
****
about a wounded soldier.

Price? I can get 7,.65-51 for about the same price as 5,56

The m16 was for close in work, lighter to carry, and did not
climb in auto
fire. Not worth **** in open area battles. Need that 308/30.06
range and
power there.



You base this on what, your extensive experience as a Usenet
Commando,
like the other mustered out soldiers here?

You never even served, and you have knowledge?



If you believe that the M16 was "not worth ****" in open area battles,
then you either read that, saw a movie about it, or were told that.
Your
opinion isn't based upon experience.

Bull****. The bullet is small and lightweight. Afghanistan is long
range
shooting. Is why the military is breaking out the 'm14's. Open
areas not
being an opening in the wild jungle or the urban jungle. The fact the
Taliban shooter is shooting an older 30 caliber, 180 grain round at
2800
fps muzzle velocity vs. a 56 grain bullet at 3200 FPS. The Taliban
shooter
is out ranging the US shooter. Shooting at 500 meters plus. An M4
carbine, just does not cut long range shooting.



Bull****? I wrote that you have no experience in open battle areas, and
that your opinion was based upon what you read, or saw a movie aboutl or
were told. Once again, Bilious, you demonstrate your inability to
read for content.

You seem to think going to school for a Liberal Arts degree, let's you
know
all. You have no experience in most of life, except screwing creditors,
etc. I can see he problems with a light weight round in long distance
battles. I have shot the M16 via the military. You?


No, Bilious, I did not say that having liberal arts degrees "let's you
know all (sic)." What I said was that you have problems reading for
content, as evidenced by the example you provided and upon which I
commented.

Your firing an M16 "via the military" doesn't tell you anything about
having to use a light assault rifle in an "open battle area." I have a
heavy barrel Colt AR-15, and other than not having an "auto fire
capability," it is pretty much the same as the M16. Further, most of the
"enemies" our soldiers might meet on the battlefield these days are
armed with rifles we left behind *or* with variants of the AKs. Indeed,
those rifles fire a heavier round but they are less accurate over long
distances than the M16.

Cite your source, please. You have no personal experience in the matters
of which you speak..............As usual.

If you are looking for a terrific...
 

On 9/1/14 6:00 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 01 Sep 2014 13:47:55 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

variants of the AKs. Indeed,
those rifles fire a heavier round but they are less accurate over long
distances than the M16.

That really depends a lot on which variant of the AK you are talking
about but I agree the 7.62x39 is inferior to the 7.62x51 500 yards
down range.
The russian round is closer to a 30-30 and the NATO round is more like
a 30-06


What percentage of fire fights in Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria do you
think takes place at anywhere near 500 yards?

Here's a graphic comparing the AR and the AK...you might find it
interesting:

http://tacticalgear.com/ak-47-vs-ar-15

If you are looking for a terrific...
 

F*O*A*D wrote:
On 9/1/14 1:25 PM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 9/1/14 1:20 AM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/31/14 12:26 PM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/31/14 3:28 AM, Califbill wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 13:46:34 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 8/30/14 1:14 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 12:00:44 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

Another of our weird regs concerns AR-15s. If you buy one fully
assembled, it has to be one of only a couple of HBAR models. You can,
however, buy a fully assembled lower.

I guess I just never had the "black gun" thing.
I like wood and full power 30 cal if I am buying a center fire rifle.
I understand the attraction for the military but I am not packing 600
rounds into a fire fight, nor is my intent to inflict grievous wounds


Right, because everyone knows a 30-30 or .308 won't inflict grievous
wounds. I like the AR platform because the rifles are easy to customize
and maintain, and, for me, at least, they are accurate enough and, of
course, I only inflict "grievous wounds" on plastic and aluminum bottles
and cans and paper target. Besides, .308 ammo, American-made in brass
casings, is twice as expensive or more than brass-cased U.S.-made .223
REM ammo, and 30-30 Win is even more expensive.

You brought up 30-30 but 308/30-06 is the round of choice for snipers
who want one shot one kill. The 5.56 is designed to take the guy out
of the fight but make him a casualty who needs 2 guys to care for him.
(western European thinking)
That worked until we started fighting people who didn't give a ****
about a wounded soldier.

Price? I can get 7,.65-51 for about the same price as 5,56

The m16 was for close in work, lighter to carry, and did not climb in auto
fire. Not worth **** in open area battles. Need that 308/30.06 range and
power there.



You base this on what, your extensive experience as a Usenet Commando,
like the other mustered out soldiers here?

You never even served, and you have knowledge?



If you believe that the M16 was "not worth ****" in open area battles,
then you either read that, saw a movie about it, or were told that. Your
opinion isn't based upon experience.

Bull****. The bullet is small and lightweight. Afghanistan is long range
shooting. Is why the military is breaking out the 'm14's. Open areas not
being an opening in the wild jungle or the urban jungle. The fact the
Taliban shooter is shooting an older 30 caliber, 180 grain round at 2800
fps muzzle velocity vs. a 56 grain bullet at 3200 FPS. The Taliban shooter
is out ranging the US shooter. Shooting at 500 meters plus. An M4
carbine, just does not cut long range shooting.



Bull****? I wrote that you have no experience in open battle areas, and
that your opinion was based upon what you read, or saw a movie aboutl or
were told. Once again, Bilious, you demonstrate your inability to read for content.

You seem to think going to school for a Liberal Arts degree, let's you know
all. You have no experience in most of life, except screwing creditors,
etc. I can see he problems with a light weight round in long distance
battles. I have shot the M16 via the military. You?


No, Bilious, I did not say that having liberal arts degrees "let's you
know all (sic)." What I said was that you have problems reading for
content, as evidenced by the example you provided and upon which I commented.

Your firing an M16 "via the military" doesn't tell you anything about
having to use a light assault rifle in an "open battle area." I have a
heavy barrel Colt AR-15, and other than not having an "auto fire
capability," it is pretty much the same as the M16. Further, most of the
"enemies" our soldiers might meet on the battlefield these days are armed
with rifles we left behind *or* with variants of the AKs. Indeed, those
rifles fire a heavier round but they are less accurate over long distances than the M16.

Source? I am not referring to an AK. I am referring to those in
Afghanistan that are shooting older Mauser's, old M1 and the heavier 30
caliber rounds. And those military of ours are not shooting heavy barrel
AR's. They are shooting M4 carbines. Short barrel, light weight. Those
fighters have been fighting us, Russians, and themselves for as long as
anyone can remember. Get ambushed by some dudes at 600 yards, and which
round works better? Those Rag Heads do know war.

If you are looking for a terrific...
 

On 9/1/14 6:26 PM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 9/1/14 1:25 PM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 9/1/14 1:20 AM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/31/14 12:26 PM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/31/14 3:28 AM, Califbill wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 13:46:34 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 8/30/14 1:14 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 12:00:44 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

Another of our weird regs concerns AR-15s. If you buy one fully
assembled, it has to be one of only a couple of HBAR models. You can,
however, buy a fully assembled lower.

I guess I just never had the "black gun" thing.
I like wood and full power 30 cal if I am buying a center fire rifle.
I understand the attraction for the military but I am not packing 600
rounds into a fire fight, nor is my intent to inflict grievous wounds


Right, because everyone knows a 30-30 or .308 won't inflict grievous
wounds. I like the AR platform because the rifles are easy to customize
and maintain, and, for me, at least, they are accurate enough and, of
course, I only inflict "grievous wounds" on plastic and aluminum bottles
and cans and paper target. Besides, .308 ammo, American-made in brass
casings, is twice as expensive or more than brass-cased U.S.-made .223
REM ammo, and 30-30 Win is even more expensive.

You brought up 30-30 but 308/30-06 is the round of choice for snipers
who want one shot one kill. The 5.56 is designed to take the guy out
of the fight but make him a casualty who needs 2 guys to care for him.
(western European thinking)
That worked until we started fighting people who didn't give a ****
about a wounded soldier.

Price? I can get 7,.65-51 for about the same price as 5,56

The m16 was for close in work, lighter to carry, and did not climb in auto
fire. Not worth **** in open area battles. Need that 308/30.06 range and
power there.



You base this on what, your extensive experience as a Usenet Commando,
like the other mustered out soldiers here?

You never even served, and you have knowledge?



If you believe that the M16 was "not worth ****" in open area battles,
then you either read that, saw a movie about it, or were told that. Your
opinion isn't based upon experience.

Bull****. The bullet is small and lightweight. Afghanistan is long range
shooting. Is why the military is breaking out the 'm14's. Open areas not
being an opening in the wild jungle or the urban jungle. The fact the
Taliban shooter is shooting an older 30 caliber, 180 grain round at 2800
fps muzzle velocity vs. a 56 grain bullet at 3200 FPS. The Taliban shooter
is out ranging the US shooter. Shooting at 500 meters plus. An M4
carbine, just does not cut long range shooting.



Bull****? I wrote that you have no experience in open battle areas, and
that your opinion was based upon what you read, or saw a movie aboutl or
were told. Once again, Bilious, you demonstrate your inability to read for content.

You seem to think going to school for a Liberal Arts degree, let's you know
all. You have no experience in most of life, except screwing creditors,
etc. I can see he problems with a light weight round in long distance
battles. I have shot the M16 via the military. You?


No, Bilious, I did not say that having liberal arts degrees "let's you
know all (sic)." What I said was that you have problems reading for
content, as evidenced by the example you provided and upon which I commented.

Your firing an M16 "via the military" doesn't tell you anything about
having to use a light assault rifle in an "open battle area." I have a
heavy barrel Colt AR-15, and other than not having an "auto fire
capability," it is pretty much the same as the M16. Further, most of the
"enemies" our soldiers might meet on the battlefield these days are armed
with rifles we left behind *or* with variants of the AKs. Indeed, those
rifles fire a heavier round but they are less accurate over long distances than the M16.

Source? I am not referring to an AK. I am referring to those in
Afghanistan that are shooting older Mauser's, old M1 and the heavier 30
caliber rounds. And those military of ours are not shooting heavy barrel
AR's. They are shooting M4 carbines. Short barrel, light weight. Those
fighters have been fighting us, Russians, and themselves for as long as
anyone can remember. Get ambushed by some dudes at 600 yards, and which
round works better? Those Rag Heads do know war.


Uh-huh. 1800 foot shooters...the enemy ranks are full of them.

If you are looking for a terrific...
 

F*O*A*D wrote:
On 9/1/14 6:00 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 01 Sep 2014 13:47:55 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

variants of the AKs. Indeed,
those rifles fire a heavier round but they are less accurate over long
distances than the M16.

That really depends a lot on which variant of the AK you are talking
about but I agree the 7.62x39 is inferior to the 7.62x51 500 yards
down range.
The russian round is closer to a 30-30 and the NATO round is more like
a 30-06


What percentage of fire fights in Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria do you
think takes place at anywhere near 500 yards?

Here's a graphic comparing the AR and the AK...you might find it interesting:

http://tacticalgear.com/ak-47-vs-ar-15

Lots of the shooting is at those distances. The Afghans know their
limitations, and the effective range of the M4.
http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2010/05/...d-afghanistan/
Sounds like a cover your ass piece.

If you are looking for a terrific...
 

F*O*A*D wrote:
On 9/1/14 6:26 PM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 9/1/14 1:25 PM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 9/1/14 1:20 AM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/31/14 12:26 PM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/31/14 3:28 AM, Califbill wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 13:46:34 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 8/30/14 1:14 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 12:00:44 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

Another of our weird regs concerns AR-15s. If you buy one fully
assembled, it has to be one of only a couple of HBAR models. You can,
however, buy a fully assembled lower.

I guess I just never had the "black gun" thing.
I like wood and full power 30 cal if I am buying a center fire rifle.
I understand the attraction for the military but I am not packing 600
rounds into a fire fight, nor is my intent to inflict grievous wounds


Right, because everyone knows a 30-30 or .308 won't inflict grievous
wounds. I like the AR platform because the rifles are easy to customize
and maintain, and, for me, at least, they are accurate enough and, of
course, I only inflict "grievous wounds" on plastic and aluminum bottles
and cans and paper target. Besides, .308 ammo, American-made in brass
casings, is twice as expensive or more than brass-cased U.S.-made .223
REM ammo, and 30-30 Win is even more expensive.

You brought up 30-30 but 308/30-06 is the round of choice for snipers
who want one shot one kill. The 5.56 is designed to take the guy out
of the fight but make him a casualty who needs 2 guys to care for him.
(western European thinking)
That worked until we started fighting people who didn't give a ****
about a wounded soldier.

Price? I can get 7,.65-51 for about the same price as 5,56

The m16 was for close in work, lighter to carry, and did not climb in auto
fire. Not worth **** in open area battles. Need that 308/30.06 range and
power there.



You base this on what, your extensive experience as a Usenet Commando,
like the other mustered out soldiers here?

You never even served, and you have knowledge?



If you believe that the M16 was "not worth ****" in open area battles,
then you either read that, saw a movie about it, or were told that. Your
opinion isn't based upon experience.

Bull****. The bullet is small and lightweight. Afghanistan is long range
shooting. Is why the military is breaking out the 'm14's. Open areas not
being an opening in the wild jungle or the urban jungle. The fact the
Taliban shooter is shooting an older 30 caliber, 180 grain round at 2800
fps muzzle velocity vs. a 56 grain bullet at 3200 FPS. The Taliban shooter
is out ranging the US shooter. Shooting at 500 meters plus. An M4
carbine, just does not cut long range shooting.



Bull****? I wrote that you have no experience in open battle areas, and
that your opinion was based upon what you read, or saw a movie aboutl or
were told. Once again, Bilious, you demonstrate your inability to read for content.

You seem to think going to school for a Liberal Arts degree, let's you know
all. You have no experience in most of life, except screwing creditors,
etc. I can see he problems with a light weight round in long distance
battles. I have shot the M16 via the military. You?


No, Bilious, I did not say that having liberal arts degrees "let's you
know all (sic)." What I said was that you have problems reading for
content, as evidenced by the example you provided and upon which I commented.

Your firing an M16 "via the military" doesn't tell you anything about
having to use a light assault rifle in an "open battle area." I have a
heavy barrel Colt AR-15, and other than not having an "auto fire
capability," it is pretty much the same as the M16. Further, most of the
"enemies" our soldiers might meet on the battlefield these days are armed
with rifles we left behind *or* with variants of the AKs. Indeed, those
rifles fire a heavier round but they are less accurate over long distances than the M16.

Source? I am not referring to an AK. I am referring to those in
Afghanistan that are shooting older Mauser's, old M1 and the heavier 30
caliber rounds. And those military of ours are not shooting heavy barrel
AR's. They are shooting M4 carbines. Short barrel, light weight. Those
fighters have been fighting us, Russians, and themselves for as long as
anyone can remember. Get ambushed by some dudes at 600 yards, and which
round works better? Those Rag Heads do know war.


Uh-huh. 1800 foot shooters...the enemy ranks are full of them.

But with a light weight bullet. Wind affected, and when it gets 600 yards,
has lost a huge amount of energy.
http://www.snipercentral.com/223.htm. Look at the energy at 600 yards.
Look at the bullet drift in a 10 mph wind at 600 yards.

If you are looking for a terrific...
 

On 9/1/14 6:39 PM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 9/1/14 6:00 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 01 Sep 2014 13:47:55 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

variants of the AKs. Indeed,
those rifles fire a heavier round but they are less accurate over long
distances than the M16.

That really depends a lot on which variant of the AK you are talking
about but I agree the 7.62x39 is inferior to the 7.62x51 500 yards
down range.
The russian round is closer to a 30-30 and the NATO round is more like
a 30-06


What percentage of fire fights in Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria do you
think takes place at anywhere near 500 yards?

Here's a graphic comparing the AR and the AK...you might find it interesting:

http://tacticalgear.com/ak-47-vs-ar-15

Lots of the shooting is at those distances. The Afghans know their
limitations, and the effective range of the M4.
http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2010/05/...d-afghanistan/
Sounds like a cover your ass piece.



That's a great answer, Bilious "Lots." Got data?

If you are looking for a terrific...
 

F*O*A*D wrote:
On 9/1/14 6:39 PM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 9/1/14 6:00 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 01 Sep 2014 13:47:55 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

variants of the AKs. Indeed,
those rifles fire a heavier round but they are less accurate over long
distances than the M16.

That really depends a lot on which variant of the AK you are talking
about but I agree the 7.62x39 is inferior to the 7.62x51 500 yards
down range.
The russian round is closer to a 30-30 and the NATO round is more like
a 30-06


What percentage of fire fights in Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria do you
think takes place at anywhere near 500 yards?

Here's a graphic comparing the AR and the AK...you might find it interesting:

http://tacticalgear.com/ak-47-vs-ar-15

Lots of the shooting is at those distances. The Afghans know their
limitations, and the effective range of the M4.
http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2010/05/...d-afghanistan/
Sounds like a cover your ass piece.



That's a great answer, Bilious "Lots." Got data?

And your chart shows popularity. Nothing about ballistics. Got data?

If you are looking for a terrific...
 

On 9/1/14 6:49 PM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 9/1/14 6:26 PM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 9/1/14 1:25 PM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 9/1/14 1:20 AM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/31/14 12:26 PM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 8/31/14 3:28 AM, Califbill wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 13:46:34 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 8/30/14 1:14 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 12:00:44 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

Another of our weird regs concerns AR-15s. If you buy one fully
assembled, it has to be one of only a couple of HBAR models. You can,
however, buy a fully assembled lower.

I guess I just never had the "black gun" thing.
I like wood and full power 30 cal if I am buying a center fire rifle.
I understand the attraction for the military but I am not packing 600
rounds into a fire fight, nor is my intent to inflict grievous wounds


Right, because everyone knows a 30-30 or .308 won't inflict grievous
wounds. I like the AR platform because the rifles are easy to customize
and maintain, and, for me, at least, they are accurate enough and, of
course, I only inflict "grievous wounds" on plastic and aluminum bottles
and cans and paper target. Besides, .308 ammo, American-made in brass
casings, is twice as expensive or more than brass-cased U.S.-made .223
REM ammo, and 30-30 Win is even more expensive.

You brought up 30-30 but 308/30-06 is the round of choice for snipers
who want one shot one kill. The 5.56 is designed to take the guy out
of the fight but make him a casualty who needs 2 guys to care for him.
(western European thinking)
That worked until we started fighting people who didn't give a ****
about a wounded soldier.

Price? I can get 7,.65-51 for about the same price as 5,56

The m16 was for close in work, lighter to carry, and did not climb in auto
fire. Not worth **** in open area battles. Need that 308/30.06 range and
power there.



You base this on what, your extensive experience as a Usenet Commando,
like the other mustered out soldiers here?

You never even served, and you have knowledge?



If you believe that the M16 was "not worth ****" in open area battles,
then you either read that, saw a movie about it, or were told that. Your
opinion isn't based upon experience.

Bull****. The bullet is small and lightweight. Afghanistan is long range
shooting. Is why the military is breaking out the 'm14's. Open areas not
being an opening in the wild jungle or the urban jungle. The fact the
Taliban shooter is shooting an older 30 caliber, 180 grain round at 2800
fps muzzle velocity vs. a 56 grain bullet at 3200 FPS. The Taliban shooter
is out ranging the US shooter. Shooting at 500 meters plus. An M4
carbine, just does not cut long range shooting.



Bull****? I wrote that you have no experience in open battle areas, and
that your opinion was based upon what you read, or saw a movie aboutl or
were told. Once again, Bilious, you demonstrate your inability to read for content.

You seem to think going to school for a Liberal Arts degree, let's you know
all. You have no experience in most of life, except screwing creditors,
etc. I can see he problems with a light weight round in long distance
battles. I have shot the M16 via the military. You?


No, Bilious, I did not say that having liberal arts degrees "let's you
know all (sic)." What I said was that you have problems reading for
content, as evidenced by the example you provided and upon which I commented.

Your firing an M16 "via the military" doesn't tell you anything about
having to use a light assault rifle in an "open battle area." I have a
heavy barrel Colt AR-15, and other than not having an "auto fire
capability," it is pretty much the same as the M16. Further, most of the
"enemies" our soldiers might meet on the battlefield these days are armed
with rifles we left behind *or* with variants of the AKs. Indeed, those
rifles fire a heavier round but they are less accurate over long distances than the M16.

Source? I am not referring to an AK. I am referring to those in
Afghanistan that are shooting older Mauser's, old M1 and the heavier 30
caliber rounds. And those military of ours are not shooting heavy barrel
AR's. They are shooting M4 carbines. Short barrel, light weight. Those
fighters have been fighting us, Russians, and themselves for as long as
anyone can remember. Get ambushed by some dudes at 600 yards, and which
round works better? Those Rag Heads do know war.


Uh-huh. 1800 foot shooters...the enemy ranks are full of them.

But with a light weight bullet. Wind affected, and when it gets 600 yards,
has lost a huge amount of energy.
http://www.snipercentral.com/223.htm. Look at the energy at 600 yards.
Look at the bullet drift in a 10 mph wind at 600 yards.



You seem to think an awful lot of shooting takes place at 600 yard
distances. On what are you basing that assumption?

If you are looking for a terrific...
 

On 9/1/14 6:53 PM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 9/1/14 6:39 PM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 9/1/14 6:00 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 01 Sep 2014 13:47:55 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

variants of the AKs. Indeed,
those rifles fire a heavier round but they are less accurate over long
distances than the M16.

That really depends a lot on which variant of the AK you are talking
about but I agree the 7.62x39 is inferior to the 7.62x51 500 yards
down range.
The russian round is closer to a 30-30 and the NATO round is more like
a 30-06


What percentage of fire fights in Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria do you
think takes place at anywhere near 500 yards?

Here's a graphic comparing the AR and the AK...you might find it interesting:

http://tacticalgear.com/ak-47-vs-ar-15

Lots of the shooting is at those distances. The Afghans know their
limitations, and the effective range of the M4.
http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2010/05/...d-afghanistan/
Sounds like a cover your ass piece.



That's a great answer, Bilious "Lots." Got data?

And your chart shows popularity. Nothing about ballistics. Got data?


I'm not trying to make a point about ballistics. I'm saying you have no
data indicating what percentage of the warfare in which we are engaged
in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria is being conducted by troops equipped
with small arms shooting at each other at 500-600 yards.

Try sticking to the subject, eh, and keep your ADD from kicking in.

If you are looking for a terrific...
 

On 9/1/14 8:24 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 01 Sep 2014 18:17:27 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

What percentage of fire fights in Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria do you
think takes place at anywhere near 500 yards?

A lot of the shots in Afghanistan were taken at 500 yards or even
farther, usually with an M40 or a Barrett .50 cal.



What percentage of fire fights in those three countries took place at
anywhere near 500 yards?

If you are looking for a terrific...
 

On 9/1/14 8:26 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 01 Sep 2014 18:36:38 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

Uh-huh. 1800 foot shooters...the enemy ranks are full of them.

I think that is the point. We want to shoot them while we are still
out of range of their muddy AK


Uh-huh. And our side is just packed with guys who can kill an enemy
soldier at 600 yards.

If you are looking for a terrific...
 

F*O*A*D wrote:
On 9/1/14 8:26 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 01 Sep 2014 18:36:38 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

Uh-huh. 1800 foot shooters...the enemy ranks are full of them.

I think that is the point. We want to shoot them while we are still
out of range of their muddy AK


Uh-huh. And our side is just packed with guys who can kill an enemy soldier at 600 yards.

Not with an M4, are they going to kill the enemy soldier at 600 yards
consistently. The opposition knows to shoot from a mountain redoubt these
days. Most of the battles are not in an urban setting!