On Fri, 11 Jul 2014 08:05:18 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 7/11/2014 7:55 AM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 7/11/14, 6:57 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 7/11/2014 2:11 AM, jps wrote:
On Fri, 11 Jul 2014 00:40:45 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 10 Jul 2014 20:02:33 -0700, jps wrote:


The vast majority are suicides, somewhere around 17 - 19,000 a year.

Murders are around 11,000 a year.


So you think if there were no guns, there would be no suicides?

Just look at Japan, one of your ideal countries. No guns and a much
higher suicide rate than the US.

The more you drill down on the numbers, the worse your case gets.

I have pointed out Australia many times. They got rid of most of their
guns and it had very little effect of on the slope of their murder
rate.

Well, we certainly did shift real quick there, eh? Went from 31,000
gun deaths a year coming out of my ass to, wouldn't it happen anyway?

And you're dead wrong about Australia, they've virtually eliminated
mass shootings from their society.

My point is, if guns make a country safer, we should be the safest
****ing country on the planet. They don't and we're not.



Greg said that getting rid of most of their guns has had little effect
on the slope of the murder rate in Australia.

Your rebuttal was that Australia has virtually eliminated mass shootings.

If both statements are true, the elimination of guns has had little
effect on Australia's murder rate. I think that was his point.

One thing that is totally ignored in this great gun debate is the
cultural and ethnic diversity of the United States compared to any other
country on the planet. It has both positive and negative ramifications
on our society. The "Great Melting Pot" isn't utopia.

Guns don't create racial intolerance, conflicts based on religious
beliefs, conflicts of cultural or ethnic traditions or the inner city
gang wars that Wayne accurately points out represents the vast majority
of gun related deaths. Personally I also think that the slow shredding
of unifying traditions that have been challenged by groups focused only
on their belief system serves to further polarize the country and puts
an emphasis on our cultural, religious and ethnic diversity as we slide
into a "progressive" liberal never-never land. We are slowly removing
the measuring sticks of our societal structure that includes the good
with the bad and replacing it with a free-for-all "anything goes"
mentality that is increasingly based on an entitlement philosophy.

So, going back to guns. They are not the *reason* for our problems.





My guess is that JPS believes guns do not make a country safer. I agree
with him.


As a 65 year old living in an increasingly drug infested society and a
growing expectation of "what's your's is mine" ... I feel somewhat
safer having a last resort means of self defense available. I never
felt that way when I was younger.

Not to make light of a serious issue but it's like having a fire
extinguisher. Hopefully and statistically you will never need it but
if you should, it could save lives and property.

A serious answer to a serious concern. I appreciate that.
Unfortunately, in the hands of someone less stable, that same weapon
is more likely to be used against themselves, a family member or
someone they know.

In terms of odds, homes with guns are something like 7 times more
likely to have a gun-related death or injury, either by accident or on
purpuse.

I do not believe this is the result of the environment immediately
outside the home, unless you reside in the worst parts of Chicago
where the danger outside may eclipse the danger a weapon poses inside
the home.

On 7/11/2014 6:17 PM, jps wrote:
On Fri, 11 Jul 2014 08:05:18 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 7/11/2014 7:55 AM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 7/11/14, 6:57 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 7/11/2014 2:11 AM, jps wrote:
On Fri, 11 Jul 2014 00:40:45 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 10 Jul 2014 20:02:33 -0700, jps wrote:


The vast majority are suicides, somewhere around 17 - 19,000 a year.

Murders are around 11,000 a year.


So you think if there were no guns, there would be no suicides?

Just look at Japan, one of your ideal countries. No guns and a much
higher suicide rate than the US.

The more you drill down on the numbers, the worse your case gets.

I have pointed out Australia many times. They got rid of most of their
guns and it had very little effect of on the slope of their murder
rate.

Well, we certainly did shift real quick there, eh? Went from 31,000
gun deaths a year coming out of my ass to, wouldn't it happen anyway?

And you're dead wrong about Australia, they've virtually eliminated
mass shootings from their society.

My point is, if guns make a country safer, we should be the safest
****ing country on the planet. They don't and we're not.



Greg said that getting rid of most of their guns has had little effect
on the slope of the murder rate in Australia.

Your rebuttal was that Australia has virtually eliminated mass shootings.

If both statements are true, the elimination of guns has had little
effect on Australia's murder rate. I think that was his point.

One thing that is totally ignored in this great gun debate is the
cultural and ethnic diversity of the United States compared to any other
country on the planet. It has both positive and negative ramifications
on our society. The "Great Melting Pot" isn't utopia.

Guns don't create racial intolerance, conflicts based on religious
beliefs, conflicts of cultural or ethnic traditions or the inner city
gang wars that Wayne accurately points out represents the vast majority
of gun related deaths. Personally I also think that the slow shredding
of unifying traditions that have been challenged by groups focused only
on their belief system serves to further polarize the country and puts
an emphasis on our cultural, religious and ethnic diversity as we slide
into a "progressive" liberal never-never land. We are slowly removing
the measuring sticks of our societal structure that includes the good
with the bad and replacing it with a free-for-all "anything goes"
mentality that is increasingly based on an entitlement philosophy.

So, going back to guns. They are not the *reason* for our problems.





My guess is that JPS believes guns do not make a country safer. I agree
with him.


As a 65 year old living in an increasingly drug infested society and a
growing expectation of "what's your's is mine" ... I feel somewhat
safer having a last resort means of self defense available. I never
felt that way when I was younger.

Not to make light of a serious issue but it's like having a fire
extinguisher. Hopefully and statistically you will never need it but
if you should, it could save lives and property.

A serious answer to a serious concern. I appreciate that.
Unfortunately, in the hands of someone less stable, that same weapon
is more likely to be used against themselves, a family member or
someone they know.

In terms of odds, homes with guns are something like 7 times more
likely to have a gun-related death or injury, either by accident or on
purpuse.

I do not believe this is the result of the environment immediately
outside the home, unless you reside in the worst parts of Chicago
where the danger outside may eclipse the danger a weapon poses inside
the home.


....and homes with stairs are more than 95% more likely to have someone
injured falling down stairs... Either way, your second arguement is bs
too, if I lived in Chicago, I would be much more likely to keep my gun
out and loaded than say, your imaginary gated community...

On Fri, 11 Jul 2014 19:46:00 -0400, wrote:

You can make a far worse case against swimming pools.

===

That's an interesting point. We must lose at least a dozen or more
kids to swimming pools every year just in Lee County alone. And what
about the motorcycle toll? That's probably more like two dozen a
year.

On Fri, 11 Jul 2014 21:13:10 -0400, Wayne.B wrote:

On Fri, 11 Jul 2014 19:46:00 -0400, wrote:

You can make a far worse case against swimming pools.

===

That's an interesting point. We must lose at least a dozen or more
kids to swimming pools every year just in Lee County alone. And what
about the motorcycle toll? That's probably more like two dozen a
year.

Yeah, but that's only true if folks ride their motorcycles. If you don't ride them, they're damn
safe!

But I'll bet that more than 90% of those injured on motorcycles were riding them when injured.

On Sat, 12 Jul 2014 09:50:40 -0400, Poquito Loco
wrote:

On Fri, 11 Jul 2014 21:13:10 -0400, Wayne.B wrote:

On Fri, 11 Jul 2014 19:46:00 -0400, wrote:

You can make a far worse case against swimming pools.

===

That's an interesting point. We must lose at least a dozen or more
kids to swimming pools every year just in Lee County alone. And what
about the motorcycle toll? That's probably more like two dozen a
year.

Yeah, but that's only true if folks ride their motorcycles. If you don't ride them, they're damn
safe!

But I'll bet that more than 90% of those injured on motorcycles were riding them when injured.

===

South Western Florida has a particularly deadly mix of older drivers,
both cars and motorcycles, combined with very little helmet usage. The
most common accident that I see is a car making a left turn in front
of a bike that they didn't see for one reason or another. We also
have a fair assortment of younger bikers who like to race their crotch
rockets at 150+ in the middle of the night.

On Sat, 12 Jul 2014 10:01:30 -0400, Wayne.B wrote:

On Sat, 12 Jul 2014 09:50:40 -0400, Poquito Loco
wrote:

On Fri, 11 Jul 2014 21:13:10 -0400, Wayne.B wrote:

On Fri, 11 Jul 2014 19:46:00 -0400, wrote:

You can make a far worse case against swimming pools.

===

That's an interesting point. We must lose at least a dozen or more
kids to swimming pools every year just in Lee County alone. And what
about the motorcycle toll? That's probably more like two dozen a
year.

Yeah, but that's only true if folks ride their motorcycles. If you don't ride them, they're damn
safe!

But I'll bet that more than 90% of those injured on motorcycles were riding them when injured.

===

South Western Florida has a particularly deadly mix of older drivers,
both cars and motorcycles, combined with very little helmet usage. The
most common accident that I see is a car making a left turn in front
of a bike that they didn't see for one reason or another. We also
have a fair assortment of younger bikers who like to race their crotch
rockets at 150+ in the middle of the night.

That crotch rocket racing is a topic in this month's AMotorcycleA magazine. Up here they've started
using the beltway, 52 miles long, as a race track. I've seen up to ten of them racing at a time.
They start at one exit and see who can get back the quickest. So far none have been killed, but it's
just a matter of time. They're giving bikers a hell of a bad name.

The left turn in front of the motorcycle is the most common of the car/motorcycle collisions. The
excuse is always, "I didn't see it coming." I can somewhat sympathize with the auto drivers. The
other day I almost did the same thing. The bike was black, the rider in black, and the background
was dark. Plus he was going very fast. It used to be that a headlight provided some warning, but
now almost every vehicle has headlights, so they're no help to motorcycles. Luckily I saw the guy
and hit my brakes at the last second. That incident kind of changed my attitude about the excuse
most used by auto drivers. I can understand it much better.

On Sat, 12 Jul 2014 11:58:38 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 12 Jul 2014 11:52:13 -0400, Poquito Loco
wrote:

On Sat, 12 Jul 2014 10:01:30 -0400, Wayne.B wrote:

On Sat, 12 Jul 2014 09:50:40 -0400, Poquito Loco
wrote:

On Fri, 11 Jul 2014 21:13:10 -0400, Wayne.B wrote:

On Fri, 11 Jul 2014 19:46:00 -0400, wrote:

You can make a far worse case against swimming pools.

===

That's an interesting point. We must lose at least a dozen or more
kids to swimming pools every year just in Lee County alone. And what
about the motorcycle toll? That's probably more like two dozen a
year.

Yeah, but that's only true if folks ride their motorcycles. If you don't ride them, they're damn
safe!

But I'll bet that more than 90% of those injured on motorcycles were riding them when injured.

===

South Western Florida has a particularly deadly mix of older drivers,
both cars and motorcycles, combined with very little helmet usage. The
most common accident that I see is a car making a left turn in front
of a bike that they didn't see for one reason or another. We also
have a fair assortment of younger bikers who like to race their crotch
rockets at 150+ in the middle of the night.

That crotch rocket racing is a topic in this month's AMotorcycleA magazine. Up here they've started
using the beltway, 52 miles long, as a race track. I've seen up to ten of them racing at a time.
They start at one exit and see who can get back the quickest. So far none have been killed, but it's
just a matter of time. They're giving bikers a hell of a bad name.

The left turn in front of the motorcycle is the most common of the car/motorcycle collisions. The
excuse is always, "I didn't see it coming." I can somewhat sympathize with the auto drivers. The
other day I almost did the same thing. The bike was black, the rider in black, and the background
was dark. Plus he was going very fast. It used to be that a headlight provided some warning, but
now almost every vehicle has headlights, so they're no help to motorcycles. Luckily I saw the guy
and hit my brakes at the last second. That incident kind of changed my attitude about the excuse
most used by auto drivers. I can understand it much better.

An old biker trick is to always watch the front wheels of any car you
are approaching. That will be the first indication of what they are
going to do. You will see the tire rolling before you see the car
move. If they are steering into a turn, they are thinking about going
and probably not looking at you.

That works very well for cars about to pull into your lane from the side. If a car is approaching
you, it's much harder to spot any tell-tale wheel movement. Best bet is to slow down and be ready to
stop.

....and get good at countersteering!

On 7/12/2014 11:05 AM, Poquito Loco wrote:
...and get good at countersteering!

Oh no! Here we go again.

--
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the
government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of
taking care of them".
Thomas Jefferson

On 7/12/2014 11:58 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jul 2014 11:52:13 -0400, Poquito Loco
wrote:

On Sat, 12 Jul 2014 10:01:30 -0400, Wayne.B wrote:

On Sat, 12 Jul 2014 09:50:40 -0400, Poquito Loco
wrote:

On Fri, 11 Jul 2014 21:13:10 -0400, Wayne.B wrote:

On Fri, 11 Jul 2014 19:46:00 -0400, wrote:

You can make a far worse case against swimming pools.

===

That's an interesting point. We must lose at least a dozen or more
kids to swimming pools every year just in Lee County alone. And what
about the motorcycle toll? That's probably more like two dozen a
year.

Yeah, but that's only true if folks ride their motorcycles. If you don't ride them, they're damn
safe!

But I'll bet that more than 90% of those injured on motorcycles were riding them when injured.

===

South Western Florida has a particularly deadly mix of older drivers,
both cars and motorcycles, combined with very little helmet usage. The
most common accident that I see is a car making a left turn in front
of a bike that they didn't see for one reason or another. We also
have a fair assortment of younger bikers who like to race their crotch
rockets at 150+ in the middle of the night.

That crotch rocket racing is a topic in this month's AMotorcycleA magazine. Up here they've started
using the beltway, 52 miles long, as a race track. I've seen up to ten of them racing at a time.
They start at one exit and see who can get back the quickest. So far none have been killed, but it's
just a matter of time. They're giving bikers a hell of a bad name.

The left turn in front of the motorcycle is the most common of the car/motorcycle collisions. The
excuse is always, "I didn't see it coming." I can somewhat sympathize with the auto drivers. The
other day I almost did the same thing. The bike was black, the rider in black, and the background
was dark. Plus he was going very fast. It used to be that a headlight provided some warning, but
now almost every vehicle has headlights, so they're no help to motorcycles. Luckily I saw the guy
and hit my brakes at the last second. That incident kind of changed my attitude about the excuse
most used by auto drivers. I can understand it much better.

An old biker trick is to always watch the front wheels of any car you
are approaching. That will be the first indication of what they are
going to do. You will see the tire rolling before you see the car
move. If they are steering into a turn, they are thinking about going
and probably not looking at you.


My dad taught me the same thing with cars... doesn't matter what you are
driving..

wrote:
On Fri, 11 Jul 2014 21:13:10 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Fri, 11 Jul 2014 19:46:00 -0400, wrote:

You can make a far worse case against swimming pools.

===

That's an interesting point. We must lose at least a dozen or more
kids to swimming pools every year just in Lee County alone.

Considering how many of those pools are simply a decoration (very
seldom ever used) it may be a very similar analogy.
A comment in a fiction novel I read. Very appropriate.

Just like despite hundreds of billions of dollars being spent, 'The War on
Drugs' has produced a net gain of zero. There are more drugs on the street
now than before and more people using them. All the police managed to do
with all their enforcement efforts is to drive the price of the product up
to the point where mothers are selling their kids to get high. Oh, yeah,
and a bunch of poor black kids are willing to kill a bunch of other poor
black kids for the money associated with selling the ****. But that's OK
because the cops really don't care about poor black kids anyway. So long as
they keep the rich white folks safe and sound, they're happy as hell."