On Wed, 21 May 2014 16:34:39 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 5/21/2014 3:24 PM, Poquito Loco wrote:
On Wed, 21 May 2014 15:09:31 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 21 May 2014 13:51:23 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

I like and liked pre-amplified bluegrass.

I am confused by "pre amplified bluegrass"
Do you mean hearing a group in a venue so small that they did not need
amps? I guess TV is out for you totally.
Everyone likes a small room performance. I even enjoyed Barry Manilow
at Shady Grove in Gathersburg (small dinner theater) and I hate the
dude. He did work pretty hard to put on a show. You have to when you
go from Mandy on the radio everywhere to dinner theater.

There is a lot of bluegrass played in a small venue. It's usually called 'jamming'. A bunch of
pickers get together and the only folks who can hear are sitting around right around the campsite.

It would be pretty hard for a thousand folks in lawn chairs to hear anything that wasn't amplified.



There's a big difference in what you consider "amplified".

Back in the late 1800's and up to about 1920 or so acoustic flat top
guitars were small in size. They were called "Parlor" guitars and had
strings made of animal intestines or "Gut Strings". It wasn't until
the 1920's that steel strings came into play. Steel stringed guitars
are louder but had to be built and braced differently to tolerate the
much higher string tension of steel strings. We seen more than one
rare, vintage guitar originally built for gut strings (you can use nylon
strings on them now) that were ruined because the owner tried putting
steel strings on them. Rips the bridge right off the guitar, often
taking part of the top with it. Tuned to pitch, steel strings generate
about 200lbs or more of tension that is trying to rip the bridge off the
guitar.

Anyway, when the Big Band era started in the 1920's and 1930's acoustic
guitars -- both flat tops and archtops simply weren't loud enough to be
heard along with the horns, reed instruments, drums etc. in the bands.
One of the first electrics was an acoustic archtop on which a pickup
taken from a lapsteel guitar was mounted. It became the famous "Charlie
Christian" pickup and guitar configuration. It's replacement was
another large, strange magnetic pickup that evolved into the popular P90
magnetic/electric pickups used today. We had two Gibson ES-150s at the
shop at one time ... one a Charlie Christian model and another had the
prototype P90 on it. Both were pre-WWII guitars. "ES" by the way
stands for "Electric Spanish" and Gibson first started using the "ES"
nomenclature on their guitars when the first electric acoustics were
introduced.

Meanwhile, traditional acoustic guitars (known as "flat tops") began to
grow in size in order to produce more sound. Eventually different types
of acoustic pickups were developed ... piezo transducers, under the
saddle sensors, body sensors and internal microphones. The output of
these pickups are fed into amplifiers or PA systems to increase sound
volume.

I don't particularly care for acoustic guitars with these types of
pickups in them because they alter the natural sound of the acoustic
guitar. The unique sound of a Martin or Guild becomes lost due to the
sound coloration of the pickup used. I think using a good quality
stage microphone properly placed in front of the guitar produces a much
better and authentic amplified sound of the guitar. It's also the way
they are recorded most of the time.

Solid body electric guitars are totally different. They are made to be
amplified. Oh ... and Tim's basses.

Then I don't know what Harry's talking about. If one looks at the pictures I posted, the instruments
are played with a microphone in front, in almost all cases. I didn't see any 'electric' guitars, or
guitars with wires running to amplifiers. When I say 'guitars', I mean all the stringed instruments.
I still don't understand Harry's comment about 'pre-amplified bluegrass'. The only amplification I
saw was through the PA system. I suppose this is what he doesn't like, which makes little sense.

Anyway, thank you for the history lesson, and I agree with your comment about a good quality
microphone placed properly in front of the instrument. Gettysburg uses the same sound guys year
after year, and they get rave reviews from all the performers.

On 5/21/14, 5:56 PM, Poquito Loco wrote:

Then I don't know what Harry's talking about. If one looks at the pictures I posted, the instruments
are played with a microphone in front, in almost all cases. I didn't see any 'electric' guitars, or
guitars with wires running to amplifiers.


D'oh. You don't see many long wires running from most of the guitars to
amps at a rock concert, either, if they are using wireless mikes on
their instruments.

On 5/22/14, 1:11 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 21 May 2014 18:07:11 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 5/21/14, 5:56 PM, Poquito Loco wrote:

Then I don't know what Harry's talking about. If one looks at the pictures I posted, the instruments
are played with a microphone in front, in almost all cases. I didn't see any 'electric' guitars, or
guitars with wires running to amplifiers.


D'oh. You don't see many long wires running from most of the guitars to
amps at a rock concert, either, if they are using wireless mikes on
their instruments.


If they didn't have amplifiers, only the first couple rows would hear
it at all.
I liked Richard's explanation better.


D'oh. The point: that herring didn't see any wires coming from the
on-stage instruments going to amps doesn't mean much in terms of
defining whether they are "electric" or not, because, for example, a
guitar can be electric and hooked up to an amp wirelessly. A
floor-standing microphone doesn't change whether a guitar is "electric"
or strictly non-electic acoustic.

On 5/22/14, 11:04 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2014 06:20:24 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 5/22/14, 1:11 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 21 May 2014 18:07:11 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 5/21/14, 5:56 PM, Poquito Loco wrote:

Then I don't know what Harry's talking about. If one looks at the pictures I posted, the instruments
are played with a microphone in front, in almost all cases. I didn't see any 'electric' guitars, or
guitars with wires running to amplifiers.


D'oh. You don't see many long wires running from most of the guitars to
amps at a rock concert, either, if they are using wireless mikes on
their instruments.


If they didn't have amplifiers, only the first couple rows would hear
it at all.
I liked Richard's explanation better.


D'oh. The point: that herring didn't see any wires coming from the
on-stage instruments going to amps doesn't mean much in terms of
defining whether they are "electric" or not, because, for example, a
guitar can be electric and hooked up to an amp wirelessly. A
floor-standing microphone doesn't change whether a guitar is "electric"
or strictly non-electic acoustic.

A wireless mike does not stop a banjo from being acoustic,.I have
never seen a stratocaster at a bluegrass concert, at least not as a
bluegrass act.
They may bring a rock guy along on the tour in some northern venues
but just to broaden the appeal and sell more tickets. It is like the
rap guys getting into country music.



I'm afraid you either just don't get it or you are just trying to be
argumentative.

Next...

--
If right-wing assholes could fly,
rec.boats would be an airport!

On 5/22/14, 11:24 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2014 11:05:41 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 5/22/14, 11:04 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2014 06:20:24 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 5/22/14, 1:11 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 21 May 2014 18:07:11 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 5/21/14, 5:56 PM, Poquito Loco wrote:

Then I don't know what Harry's talking about. If one looks at the pictures I posted, the instruments
are played with a microphone in front, in almost all cases. I didn't see any 'electric' guitars, or
guitars with wires running to amplifiers.


D'oh. You don't see many long wires running from most of the guitars to
amps at a rock concert, either, if they are using wireless mikes on
their instruments.


If they didn't have amplifiers, only the first couple rows would hear
it at all.
I liked Richard's explanation better.


D'oh. The point: that herring didn't see any wires coming from the
on-stage instruments going to amps doesn't mean much in terms of
defining whether they are "electric" or not, because, for example, a
guitar can be electric and hooked up to an amp wirelessly. A
floor-standing microphone doesn't change whether a guitar is "electric"
or strictly non-electic acoustic.

A wireless mike does not stop a banjo from being acoustic,.I have
never seen a stratocaster at a bluegrass concert, at least not as a
bluegrass act.
They may bring a rock guy along on the tour in some northern venues
but just to broaden the appeal and sell more tickets. It is like the
rap guys getting into country music.



I'm afraid you either just don't get it or you are just trying to be
argumentative.

Next...

You are right, I don't get it. I have never seen a bluegrass act with
an electric guitar,



Oh, I have. But I'm not referring to electric guitars, as in
Stratocasters and such. I am referring to acoustic Guild, Martin, Yamaha
guitars and banjos, violins, et cetera, with electronic pickups, devices
that change the sound characteristics of what they are into devices that
sound like something else.

--
If right-wing assholes could fly,
rec.boats would be an airport!

On 5/22/2014 11:49 AM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 5/22/14, 11:24 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2014 11:05:41 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 5/22/14, 11:04 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2014 06:20:24 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 5/22/14, 1:11 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 21 May 2014 18:07:11 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 5/21/14, 5:56 PM, Poquito Loco wrote:

Then I don't know what Harry's talking about. If one looks at
the pictures I posted, the instruments
are played with a microphone in front, in almost all cases. I
didn't see any 'electric' guitars, or
guitars with wires running to amplifiers.


D'oh. You don't see many long wires running from most of the
guitars to
amps at a rock concert, either, if they are using wireless mikes on
their instruments.


If they didn't have amplifiers, only the first couple rows would hear
it at all.
I liked Richard's explanation better.


D'oh. The point: that herring didn't see any wires coming from the
on-stage instruments going to amps doesn't mean much in terms of
defining whether they are "electric" or not, because, for example, a
guitar can be electric and hooked up to an amp wirelessly. A
floor-standing microphone doesn't change whether a guitar is
"electric"
or strictly non-electic acoustic.

A wireless mike does not stop a banjo from being acoustic,.I have
never seen a stratocaster at a bluegrass concert, at least not as a
bluegrass act.
They may bring a rock guy along on the tour in some northern venues
but just to broaden the appeal and sell more tickets. It is like the
rap guys getting into country music.



I'm afraid you either just don't get it or you are just trying to be
argumentative.

Next...

You are right, I don't get it. I have never seen a bluegrass act with
an electric guitar,



Oh, I have. But I'm not referring to electric guitars, as in
Stratocasters and such. I am referring to acoustic Guild, Martin, Yamaha
guitars and banjos, violins, et cetera, with electronic pickups, devices
that change the sound characteristics of what they are into devices that
sound like something else.



My luthier friend who has been building acoustic guitars for 38 years
now cringes whenever someone wants a pickup installed in one of his
guitars. In fact, he refuses.

The sound of an acoustic is a function of the strings imparting their
vibrations to the top wood of the guitar via the saddle, bridge and
backing plate within the guitar. The top wood's response is a function
of it's unique grain structure which is why three different guitars, all
the exact same model and built on the same day will all sound different.

It's also why cheaper laminate guitars are more uniform sounding guitar
to guitar to guitar. The laminate construction takes away the unique
grain structure of the top wood, so they all sound the same.... crappy.

The body of the guitar is basically a speaker enclosure with the sound
hole being a "tuned" port. The type of wood used for the body can
brighten or darken the overall sound but it's really the top doing all
the work.

That's why the pickup systems can't capture the true sound of the
guitar. They are only sampling a small section of the vibrating top.

Knowledgeable buyers at the guitar shop will often ask Rick or myself
(if I am there) to play some chords on a guitar they are interested in
while they sit several feet in front of us in order to hear what it
really sounds like. You can't really tell when playing it because your
ears are positioned above and behind the sound hole.

But people still want pickups in acoustics so they can be heard. The
most natural sounding pickup system for an acoustic IMO is a passive (no
batteries or pre-amp) system called a K&K Pure. It consists of three
transducers precisely installed on the bridge backing plate within the
guitar.

The worst pickup system (IMO) is the Taylor ES system. Tinny, horrible
sound and all Taylors sound the same plugged in.

On 5/22/2014 3:08 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 5/22/2014 11:49 AM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 5/22/14, 11:24 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2014 11:05:41 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 5/22/14, 11:04 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2014 06:20:24 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 5/22/14, 1:11 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 21 May 2014 18:07:11 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 5/21/14, 5:56 PM, Poquito Loco wrote:

Then I don't know what Harry's talking about. If one looks at
the pictures I posted, the instruments
are played with a microphone in front, in almost all cases. I
didn't see any 'electric' guitars, or
guitars with wires running to amplifiers.


D'oh. You don't see many long wires running from most of the
guitars to
amps at a rock concert, either, if they are using wireless mikes on
their instruments.


If they didn't have amplifiers, only the first couple rows would
hear
it at all.
I liked Richard's explanation better.


D'oh. The point: that herring didn't see any wires coming from the
on-stage instruments going to amps doesn't mean much in terms of
defining whether they are "electric" or not, because, for example, a
guitar can be electric and hooked up to an amp wirelessly. A
floor-standing microphone doesn't change whether a guitar is
"electric"
or strictly non-electic acoustic.

A wireless mike does not stop a banjo from being acoustic,.I have
never seen a stratocaster at a bluegrass concert, at least not as a
bluegrass act.
They may bring a rock guy along on the tour in some northern venues
but just to broaden the appeal and sell more tickets. It is like the
rap guys getting into country music.



I'm afraid you either just don't get it or you are just trying to be
argumentative.

Next...

You are right, I don't get it. I have never seen a bluegrass act with
an electric guitar,



Oh, I have. But I'm not referring to electric guitars, as in
Stratocasters and such. I am referring to acoustic Guild, Martin, Yamaha
guitars and banjos, violins, et cetera, with electronic pickups, devices
that change the sound characteristics of what they are into devices that
sound like something else.



My luthier friend who has been building acoustic guitars for 38 years
now cringes whenever someone wants a pickup installed in one of his
guitars. In fact, he refuses.

The sound of an acoustic is a function of the strings imparting their
vibrations to the top wood of the guitar via the saddle, bridge and
backing plate within the guitar. The top wood's response is a function
of it's unique grain structure which is why three different guitars, all
the exact same model and built on the same day will all sound different.


I have a Takamine 12 string that is like that... Cheap 300 dollar entry
model, everone who plays it says it sounds like one of their top models.

It's also why cheaper laminate guitars are more uniform sounding guitar
to guitar to guitar. The laminate construction takes away the unique
grain structure of the top wood, so they all sound the same.... crappy.

The body of the guitar is basically a speaker enclosure with the sound
hole being a "tuned" port. The type of wood used for the body can
brighten or darken the overall sound but it's really the top doing all
the work.

That's why the pickup systems can't capture the true sound of the
guitar. They are only sampling a small section of the vibrating top.

Knowledgeable buyers at the guitar shop will often ask Rick or myself
(if I am there) to play some chords on a guitar they are interested in
while they sit several feet in front of us in order to hear what it
really sounds like. You can't really tell when playing it because your
ears are positioned above and behind the sound hole.

But people still want pickups in acoustics so they can be heard. The
most natural sounding pickup system for an acoustic IMO is a passive (no
batteries or pre-amp) system called a K&K Pure. It consists of three
transducers precisely installed on the bridge backing plate within the
guitar.

The worst pickup system (IMO) is the Taylor ES system. Tinny, horrible
sound and all Taylors sound the same plugged in.

On 5/22/2014 11:04 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2014 06:20:24 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 5/22/14, 1:11 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 21 May 2014 18:07:11 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 5/21/14, 5:56 PM, Poquito Loco wrote:

Then I don't know what Harry's talking about. If one looks at the pictures I posted, the instruments
are played with a microphone in front, in almost all cases. I didn't see any 'electric' guitars, or
guitars with wires running to amplifiers.


D'oh. You don't see many long wires running from most of the guitars to
amps at a rock concert, either, if they are using wireless mikes on
their instruments.


If they didn't have amplifiers, only the first couple rows would hear
it at all.
I liked Richard's explanation better.


D'oh. The point: that herring didn't see any wires coming from the
on-stage instruments going to amps doesn't mean much in terms of
defining whether they are "electric" or not, because, for example, a
guitar can be electric and hooked up to an amp wirelessly. A
floor-standing microphone doesn't change whether a guitar is "electric"
or strictly non-electic acoustic.

A wireless mike does not stop a banjo from being acoustic,.I have
never seen a stratocaster at a bluegrass concert, at least not as a
bluegrass act.
They may bring a rock guy along on the tour in some northern venues
but just to broaden the appeal and sell more tickets. It is like the
rap guys getting into country music.


I have a Dean Markley Piezo (spelling all the way around?) type pickup I
stick to the front of my Martin, I don't think that makes me
"electric"...

wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2014 06:20:24 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 5/22/14, 1:11 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 21 May 2014 18:07:11 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 5/21/14, 5:56 PM, Poquito Loco wrote:

Then I don't know what Harry's talking about. If one looks at the
pictures I posted, the instruments
are played with a microphone in front, in almost all cases. I didn't
see any 'electric' guitars, or
guitars with wires running to amplifiers.


D'oh. You don't see many long wires running from most of the guitars to
amps at a rock concert, either, if they are using wireless mikes on
their instruments.


If they didn't have amplifiers, only the first couple rows would hear
it at all.
I liked Richard's explanation better.


D'oh. The point: that herring didn't see any wires coming from the
on-stage instruments going to amps doesn't mean much in terms of
defining whether they are "electric" or not, because, for example, a
guitar can be electric and hooked up to an amp wirelessly. A
floor-standing microphone doesn't change whether a guitar is "electric"
or strictly non-electic acoustic.

A wireless mike does not stop a banjo from being acoustic,.I have
never seen a stratocaster at a bluegrass concert, at least not as a
bluegrass act.
They may bring a rock guy along on the tour in some northern venues
but just to broaden the appeal and sell more tickets. It is like the
rap guys getting into country music.

You gotta do what you must. Like the Blues Brothers and Rawhide.

On 5/21/2014 5:56 PM, Poquito Loco wrote:
On Wed, 21 May 2014 16:34:39 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 5/21/2014 3:24 PM, Poquito Loco wrote:
On Wed, 21 May 2014 15:09:31 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 21 May 2014 13:51:23 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

I like and liked pre-amplified bluegrass.

I am confused by "pre amplified bluegrass"
Do you mean hearing a group in a venue so small that they did not need
amps? I guess TV is out for you totally.
Everyone likes a small room performance. I even enjoyed Barry Manilow
at Shady Grove in Gathersburg (small dinner theater) and I hate the
dude. He did work pretty hard to put on a show. You have to when you
go from Mandy on the radio everywhere to dinner theater.

There is a lot of bluegrass played in a small venue. It's usually called 'jamming'. A bunch of
pickers get together and the only folks who can hear are sitting around right around the campsite.

It would be pretty hard for a thousand folks in lawn chairs to hear anything that wasn't amplified.



There's a big difference in what you consider "amplified".

Back in the late 1800's and up to about 1920 or so acoustic flat top
guitars were small in size. They were called "Parlor" guitars and had
strings made of animal intestines or "Gut Strings". It wasn't until
the 1920's that steel strings came into play. Steel stringed guitars
are louder but had to be built and braced differently to tolerate the
much higher string tension of steel strings. We seen more than one
rare, vintage guitar originally built for gut strings (you can use nylon
strings on them now) that were ruined because the owner tried putting
steel strings on them. Rips the bridge right off the guitar, often
taking part of the top with it. Tuned to pitch, steel strings generate
about 200lbs or more of tension that is trying to rip the bridge off the
guitar.

Anyway, when the Big Band era started in the 1920's and 1930's acoustic
guitars -- both flat tops and archtops simply weren't loud enough to be
heard along with the horns, reed instruments, drums etc. in the bands.
One of the first electrics was an acoustic archtop on which a pickup
taken from a lapsteel guitar was mounted. It became the famous "Charlie
Christian" pickup and guitar configuration. It's replacement was
another large, strange magnetic pickup that evolved into the popular P90
magnetic/electric pickups used today. We had two Gibson ES-150s at the
shop at one time ... one a Charlie Christian model and another had the
prototype P90 on it. Both were pre-WWII guitars. "ES" by the way
stands for "Electric Spanish" and Gibson first started using the "ES"
nomenclature on their guitars when the first electric acoustics were
introduced.

Meanwhile, traditional acoustic guitars (known as "flat tops") began to
grow in size in order to produce more sound. Eventually different types
of acoustic pickups were developed ... piezo transducers, under the
saddle sensors, body sensors and internal microphones. The output of
these pickups are fed into amplifiers or PA systems to increase sound
volume.

I don't particularly care for acoustic guitars with these types of
pickups in them because they alter the natural sound of the acoustic
guitar. The unique sound of a Martin or Guild becomes lost due to the
sound coloration of the pickup used. I think using a good quality
stage microphone properly placed in front of the guitar produces a much
better and authentic amplified sound of the guitar. It's also the way
they are recorded most of the time.

Solid body electric guitars are totally different. They are made to be
amplified. Oh ... and Tim's basses.

Then I don't know what Harry's talking about. If one looks at the pictures I posted, the instruments
are played with a microphone in front, in almost all cases. I didn't see any 'electric' guitars, or
guitars with wires running to amplifiers. When I say 'guitars', I mean all the stringed instruments.
I still don't understand Harry's comment about 'pre-amplified bluegrass'. The only amplification I
saw was through the PA system. I suppose this is what he doesn't like, which makes little sense.

Anyway, thank you for the history lesson, and I agree with your comment about a good quality
microphone placed properly in front of the instrument. Gettysburg uses the same sound guys year
after year, and they get rave reviews from all the performers.


I think he was talking about electric guitars, guessing that you are
gonna' see on in a modern bluegrass fest... Google fails the great
krause again...