??? upgrading shore power to 50A 220V
 

On 3/19/2014 10:41 PM, H*a*r*r*o*l*d wrote:
On 3/19/2014 8:41 PM, KC wrote:
And when I need a hole dug, I hire a pro with bigger tools:) other than
that, I get by.

Don't feel bad. Harry had to hire an expert to skillfully dig his post
holes.

I had to replace the pipe from my house to the well at 5 feet deep
across a driveway.. I don't cut driveways:) They came in and dug the
hole and for an extra pizza at lunch drilled a new hole in the side of
the well so I could string a bigger PVC pipe from the well to the house
and then slide the new pipe through it... If I ever have a problem I can
slide the old pipe out and just replace it. Also made it easier to work
on the well foot by pulling the pipe up to the hole from inside the
basement..

??? upgrading shore power to 50A 220V
 

KC wrote:
On 3/19/2014 7:54 PM, Earl wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 3/18/14, 7:05 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 3/18/2014 6:26 AM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 3/17/14, 6:19 PM, KC wrote:
On 3/17/2014 6:01 PM, david@righthere... wrote:
I've been on 30A 120V power at the dock for years and would now
like
to upgrade
to 50A 220V, or what they refer to as 50A 250V at the marina
office. I
haven't
put a meter on it yet but so far suspect it's closer to 220 than
250.
The socket
on the pedestal is like the one pictured he

http://www.catagle.com/68-153/CWD_Ar...uyersGuide.htm

They say it's 3-pole 4-wire. I'm guessing X and Y are the two hot
legs
and W is
the neutral. Between X or Y and W would be 120V+/- and between X
and Y
is the
220/250V. Right? How does the ground tie into it though? With
only 3
poles do we
run a separate wire from the boat to the pedestal, and if so how
do we
tie in?

Also can anyone suggest the cheapest place to get a plug like
that? So
far the
best price I've found is $68.18 he

http://www.ktool.net/servlet/the-581...-63CR65/Detail






Thank you for any help!
David


The plug is 10-20 bucks at home depot or lowes, Scottys whatever you
have. It's a dryer plug basically... As to the wiring, I forget
but I
have a book I always use when I do the wiring.. It was about 20
bucks at
home depot, I have had it for as long as I have owned a house...


Yikes! It's NOT a dryer plug, basically or otherwise.

:)

Not to knock Scotty but I got a big kick out of his statement, "As to
the wiring, I forget but I have a book I always use when I do the
wiring".

I think Scott should limit his wiring to 12 volt devices. Whoops. I
take that back. My oldest grandson recently got his first car and
(like all teenagers) was installing a sound system that included a
massive bass speaker cabinet and a dedicated, 1200 watt amplifier to
drive it. He was wiring the power to the amp with some small gauge
"hook up" wire that he bought. I explained to him that he only
had 12
volts +/- available and if the amp was capable of 1200 watts, he
could
be drawing close to 100 peak amps at times and his little hookup wire
was going to act like a fuse. Got him some appropriately sized wire.



I'm not a fan of taking unnecessary physical, fire or explosion risks,
so I don't do wiring any more difficult than replacing a switch or a
light fixture. We haven't really had any serious electrical issues
here. The wiring for our generator was handled by the contractor's
licensed electricians.
Thank you for your invaluable input.

I think the whole idea was to "knock" me.. it's always good though
cause I just shut off rec.boats for a day and it goes away:) Of course
another lib gets to "bully" another opinion off the table, but so be
it.. Anyway, my point was "I use a book whenever I do this stuff" even
the stuff I know well like plumbing, etc.

Anyway, I went and looked at my book and realized that the hookup the
guy was asking about was above my pay grade so of course I wouldn't
have taken it on, even with my book...

Hey, I know I'm no expert but I do maintain a 100 year old house and
from water delivery, septic, plumbing, heat, electrical, paint,
structure... I do manage to get it all done, by myself, me and my
stupid books.. And when I need a hole dug, I hire a pro with bigger
tools:) other than that, I get by.
My comment was sarcastic.

??? upgrading shore power to 50A 220V
 

On Tue, 18 Mar 2014 08:01:29 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 3/18/2014 7:42 AM, KC wrote:
On 3/18/2014 3:34 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 3/18/2014 12:22 AM, KC wrote:
On 3/17/2014 7:57 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 3/17/2014 7:14 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 18:19:42 -0400, KC wrote:

On 3/17/2014 6:01 PM, david@righthere... wrote:
I've been on 30A 120V power at the dock for years and would now like
to upgrade
to 50A 220V, or what they refer to as 50A 250V at the marina office.
I haven't
put a meter on it yet but so far suspect it's closer to 220 than
250. The socket
on the pedestal is like the one pictured he

http://www.catagle.com/68-153/CWD_Ar...uyersGuide.htm

They say it's 3-pole 4-wire. I'm guessing X and Y are the two hot
legs and W is
the neutral. Between X or Y and W would be 120V+/- and between X and
Y is the
220/250V. Right? How does the ground tie into it though? With only 3
poles do we
run a separate wire from the boat to the pedestal, and if so how do
we tie in?

Also can anyone suggest the cheapest place to get a plug like that?
So far the
best price I've found is $68.18 he

http://www.ktool.net/servlet/the-581...-63CR65/Detail





Thank you for any help!
David


The plug is 10-20 bucks at home depot or lowes, Scottys whatever you
have. It's a dryer plug basically... As to the wiring, I forget but I
have a book I always use when I do the wiring.. It was about 20
bucks at
home depot, I have had it for as long as I have owned a house...

Not true at all, sorry.

This is a non-NEMA twist lock 50a plug, that is corrosion resistant.

A dryer plug is a NEMA 14-30 straight blade that would go south pretty
quickly on a pier.



Yup. I think Scotty should stick to building websites and not wiring
boats.



Why, cause I took a quick look and made a mistake? I have done a lot of
wiring in my time including my whole house to code in Essex from moving
in with full Knob and Tube... I have done barns, and wells. When you
have a 100 year old house you tend to pick up stuff. You should see me
sweat a pipe.... even if I don't know all the right terminology. Either
way, that's why I always keep my electrical book with me to check my own
work as I go....


Scott, the OP didn't say if he was re-wiring his *boat* for a 50 amp,
240v marine split service. He might be just trying to use one leg of it
to supply 50 amps to his existing 30 amp, 120v boat panel. If so, he's
taking a big risk because it's not just the plug in question. The
primary feed wires in the boat that run from the power inlet to the
power panel needs to be changed at a minimum. Plus, if the existing
power panel has a 30 amp main, supplying it with 50 amps isn't going to
do him any good. If he changes that to a 50 amp breaker without doing
any changes to the wiring, he could overheat the primary feed wiring in
the boat, causing a fire.

My comment was more than pointing out that a split, 50 amp marine
service plug is not a dryer plug.

I did what I think he is trying to accomplish on the Grand Banks we had.
It had a standard, 30 amp, 120v service. I wanted to add two
air-conditioning units to the boat. Rather than change everything over
to a 50 amp, 240v split service I simply added another 30 amp, 120v
marine inlet connector, wiring (marine type) and a small, dedicated
breaker box with two 15 amp breakers in it, one for each of the AC units.

After talking to a guy at West Marine that's the type of thing I'll do too if I
follow through with it. I might add a couple of extra outlets too, in case I
want to run an extra heater in the winter without tripping the main as I do from
time to time.

I will want to have 240V available though. I did stage lighting for years and
have been given some old moving lights that need repair and the place I work
doesn't want to put the money into them. They are old Martin Mac 500s and 600s
and they only work on 240V (+/-) power. So what I mainly want the 240 for is so
I can work on them and try to get some of them going again. My question is: If
the marina hooks up another 30 amp sevice, will it be out of phase with the
original one or could it be in phase? It wouldn't do me any good if it's in
phase, so would I need to specify or would it be out of phase and I don't need
to bother them about that detail, do you know?

I don't know a lot about many things and nothing about some things
however electrical power distribution and wiring happens to be one thing
I *do* know something about. I'd hate to see someone hurt or killed
because they received bad input.

Now, I have a question for you. Let's say your house has a 200 amp
service. Your main breaker is a double pole, 200 amp per pole breaker.
There's 240vac between the two "hot" legs and 120vac between either of
them and neutral. Each hot leg from the utility pole is sized for 200
amps for each side of the service, yet the neutral is also only sized
for 200 amps. Why isn't it sized for 400 amps, the sum of both sides of
the total service?

See if the answer is in your "electrical" book.

Is this a job you are gonna' do yourself? snerk


No, it's not a job. It's a question. Can you answer it with all your
experience wiring homes, barns and whatever?

Look, any handyman can do basic wiring in their house. It's not rocket
science. But knowing something about current capacities, codes and
particularly how the power in a house, commercial building or a *boat*
is distributed requires more than a handy dandy DIY book from the Home
Depot.

I am not an electrician. I am an electrical engineer. If I wanted a
new power service installed in my house or was doing a major upgrade to
the existing service, I'd hire a licensed, master electrician to do the
job.

BTW, the answer to the question I asked is because the two "hot" legs
are 180 degrees out of phase relative to each other, so the net current
flowing through the neutral leg adds algebraically. The current through
the neutral leg can never exceed 200 amperes.

Thanks for sharing that. I still have the question of whether the the two 30 amp
120s would necessarily be out of phase though, even though what you wrote leads
me to believe they probably would be.

??? upgrading shore power to 50A 220V
 

On 3/22/2014 1:33 PM, david@righthere... wrote:

On Tue, 18 Mar 2014 08:01:29 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 3/18/2014 7:42 AM, KC wrote:
On 3/18/2014 3:34 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 3/18/2014 12:22 AM, KC wrote:
On 3/17/2014 7:57 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 3/17/2014 7:14 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 18:19:42 -0400, KC wrote:

On 3/17/2014 6:01 PM, david@righthere... wrote:
I've been on 30A 120V power at the dock for years and would now like
to upgrade
to 50A 220V, or what they refer to as 50A 250V at the marina office.
I haven't
put a meter on it yet but so far suspect it's closer to 220 than
250. The socket
on the pedestal is like the one pictured he

http://www.catagle.com/68-153/CWD_Ar...uyersGuide.htm

They say it's 3-pole 4-wire. I'm guessing X and Y are the two hot
legs and W is
the neutral. Between X or Y and W would be 120V+/- and between X and
Y is the
220/250V. Right? How does the ground tie into it though? With only 3
poles do we
run a separate wire from the boat to the pedestal, and if so how do
we tie in?

Also can anyone suggest the cheapest place to get a plug like that?
So far the
best price I've found is $68.18 he

http://www.ktool.net/servlet/the-581...-63CR65/Detail





Thank you for any help!
David


The plug is 10-20 bucks at home depot or lowes, Scottys whatever you
have. It's a dryer plug basically... As to the wiring, I forget but I
have a book I always use when I do the wiring.. It was about 20
bucks at
home depot, I have had it for as long as I have owned a house...

Not true at all, sorry.

This is a non-NEMA twist lock 50a plug, that is corrosion resistant.

A dryer plug is a NEMA 14-30 straight blade that would go south pretty
quickly on a pier.



Yup. I think Scotty should stick to building websites and not wiring
boats.



Why, cause I took a quick look and made a mistake? I have done a lot of
wiring in my time including my whole house to code in Essex from moving
in with full Knob and Tube... I have done barns, and wells. When you
have a 100 year old house you tend to pick up stuff. You should see me
sweat a pipe.... even if I don't know all the right terminology. Either
way, that's why I always keep my electrical book with me to check my own
work as I go....


Scott, the OP didn't say if he was re-wiring his *boat* for a 50 amp,
240v marine split service. He might be just trying to use one leg of it
to supply 50 amps to his existing 30 amp, 120v boat panel. If so, he's
taking a big risk because it's not just the plug in question. The
primary feed wires in the boat that run from the power inlet to the
power panel needs to be changed at a minimum. Plus, if the existing
power panel has a 30 amp main, supplying it with 50 amps isn't going to
do him any good. If he changes that to a 50 amp breaker without doing
any changes to the wiring, he could overheat the primary feed wiring in
the boat, causing a fire.

My comment was more than pointing out that a split, 50 amp marine
service plug is not a dryer plug.

I did what I think he is trying to accomplish on the Grand Banks we had.
It had a standard, 30 amp, 120v service. I wanted to add two
air-conditioning units to the boat. Rather than change everything over
to a 50 amp, 240v split service I simply added another 30 amp, 120v
marine inlet connector, wiring (marine type) and a small, dedicated
breaker box with two 15 amp breakers in it, one for each of the AC units.

After talking to a guy at West Marine that's the type of thing I'll do too if I
follow through with it. I might add a couple of extra outlets too, in case I
want to run an extra heater in the winter without tripping the main as I do from
time to time.

I will want to have 240V available though. I did stage lighting for years and
have been given some old moving lights that need repair and the place I work
doesn't want to put the money into them. They are old Martin Mac 500s and 600s
and they only work on 240V (+/-) power. So what I mainly want the 240 for is so
I can work on them and try to get some of them going again. My question is: If
the marina hooks up another 30 amp sevice, will it be out of phase with the
original one or could it be in phase? It wouldn't do me any good if it's in
phase, so would I need to specify or would it be out of phase and I don't need
to bother them about that detail, do you know?


It really depends on how your marina's service is set up. Most that I
am familiar with are a distributed 208 vac Wye, 3 phase service. They
usually try to balance the service loads at each power pedestal, so it
is likely that at least two 120 vac, 30 amp outlets are on different
legs of the 3 phase service at each pedestal. If so, you will have
either 208 volts between them and 120 vac between any leg and neutral.
However, there is also a 3 phase distributed service called "240 vac
Delta" and a variation of it called "High Leg" 240 vac Delta.
High leg can produce 120 vac, 240 vac and 208 vac.

If you are not familiar with these 3 phase services and don't know what
your marina has, I highly recommend having a licensed electrician
familiar with marine service wiring help you.

??? upgrading shore power to 50A 220V
 

On Sat, 22 Mar 2014 14:22:04 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

If you are not familiar with these 3 phase services and don't know what
your marina has, I highly recommend having a licensed electrician
familiar with marine service wiring help you.

===

That's excellent advice in my opinion. If you have an expert
electrician involved there's a good chance that they can work with the
marina to get the service you need.

If your only need for 240 volts is to test stage lighting there may be
some other alternatives worth considering. One possible option is a
transformer to step up 120 to 240 volts. You can buy used
transformers on EBAY for reasonable prices. Another possibility if
you only need the 240 volts in short intervals is to get an inverter
that converts 12 volts DC to 240 volts AC. Since lighting is very
non-critical with regard to waveform, you do not need a sine wave
inverter.

??? upgrading shore power to 50A 220V
 

On Saturday, March 22, 2014 1:33:11 PM UTC-4, da...@righthere... wrote:
On Tue, 18 Mar 2014 08:01:29 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:



On 3/18/2014 7:42 AM, KC wrote:

On 3/18/2014 3:34 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:

On 3/18/2014 12:22 AM, KC wrote:

On 3/17/2014 7:57 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:

On 3/17/2014 7:14 PM, wrote:

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 18:19:42 -0400, KC wrote:



On 3/17/2014 6:01 PM, david@righthere... wrote:

I've been on 30A 120V power at the dock for years and would now like

to upgrade

to 50A 220V, or what they refer to as 50A 250V at the marina office.

I haven't

put a meter on it yet but so far suspect it's closer to 220 than

250. The socket

on the pedestal is like the one pictured he



http://www.catagle.com/68-153/CWD_Ar...uyersGuide.htm



They say it's 3-pole 4-wire. I'm guessing X and Y are the two hot

legs and W is

the neutral. Between X or Y and W would be 120V+/- and between X and

Y is the

220/250V. Right? How does the ground tie into it though? With only 3

poles do we

run a separate wire from the boat to the pedestal, and if so how do

we tie in?



Also can anyone suggest the cheapest place to get a plug like that?

So far the

best price I've found is $68.18 he



http://www.ktool.net/servlet/the-581...-63CR65/Detail











Thank you for any help!

David





The plug is 10-20 bucks at home depot or lowes, Scottys whatever you

have. It's a dryer plug basically... As to the wiring, I forget but I

have a book I always use when I do the wiring.. It was about 20

bucks at

home depot, I have had it for as long as I have owned a house...



Not true at all, sorry.



This is a non-NEMA twist lock 50a plug, that is corrosion resistant.

??? upgrading shore power to 50A 220V
 

On 3/24/2014 3:26 PM, wrote:
On Saturday, March 22, 2014 1:33:11 PM UTC-4, da...@righthere... wrote:
On Tue, 18 Mar 2014 08:01:29 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:



On 3/18/2014 7:42 AM, KC wrote:

On 3/18/2014 3:34 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:

On 3/18/2014 12:22 AM, KC wrote:

On 3/17/2014 7:57 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:

On 3/17/2014 7:14 PM, wrote:

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 18:19:42 -0400, KC wrote:



On 3/17/2014 6:01 PM, david@righthere... wrote:

I've been on 30A 120V power at the dock for years and would now like

to upgrade

to 50A 220V, or what they refer to as 50A 250V at the marina office.

I haven't

put a meter on it yet but so far suspect it's closer to 220 than

250. The socket

on the pedestal is like the one pictured he



http://www.catagle.com/68-153/CWD_Ar...uyersGuide.htm



They say it's 3-pole 4-wire. I'm guessing X and Y are the two hot

legs and W is

the neutral. Between X or Y and W would be 120V+/- and between X and

Y is the

220/250V. Right? How does the ground tie into it though? With only 3

poles do we

run a separate wire from the boat to the pedestal, and if so how do

we tie in?



Also can anyone suggest the cheapest place to get a plug like that?

So far the

best price I've found is $68.18 he



http://www.ktool.net/servlet/the-581...-63CR65/Detail











Thank you for any help!

David





The plug is 10-20 bucks at home depot or lowes, Scottys whatever you

have. It's a dryer plug basically... As to the wiring, I forget but I

have a book I always use when I do the wiring.. It was about 20

bucks at

home depot, I have had it for as long as I have owned a house...



Not true at all, sorry.



This is a non-NEMA twist lock 50a plug, that is corrosion resistant.



A dryer plug is a NEMA 14-30 straight blade that would go south pretty

quickly on a pier.







Yup. I think Scotty should stick to building websites and not wiring

boats.







Why, cause I took a quick look and made a mistake? I have done a lot of

wiring in my time including my whole house to code in Essex from moving

in with full Knob and Tube... I have done barns, and wells. When you

have a 100 year old house you tend to pick up stuff. You should see me

sweat a pipe.... even if I don't know all the right terminology. Either

way, that's why I always keep my electrical book with me to check my own

work as I go....





Scott, the OP didn't say if he was re-wiring his *boat* for a 50 amp,

240v marine split service. He might be just trying to use one leg of it

to supply 50 amps to his existing 30 amp, 120v boat panel. If so, he's

taking a big risk because it's not just the plug in question. The

primary feed wires in the boat that run from the power inlet to the

power panel needs to be changed at a minimum. Plus, if the existing

power panel has a 30 amp main, supplying it with 50 amps isn't going to

do him any good. If he changes that to a 50 amp breaker without doing

any changes to the wiring, he could overheat the primary feed wiring in

the boat, causing a fire.



My comment was more than pointing out that a split, 50 amp marine

service plug is not a dryer plug.



I did what I think he is trying to accomplish on the Grand Banks we had.

It had a standard, 30 amp, 120v service. I wanted to add two

air-conditioning units to the boat. Rather than change everything over

to a 50 amp, 240v split service I simply added another 30 amp, 120v

marine inlet connector, wiring (marine type) and a small, dedicated

breaker box with two 15 amp breakers in it, one for each of the AC units.



After talking to a guy at West Marine that's the type of thing I'll do too if I

follow through with it. I might add a couple of extra outlets too, in case I

want to run an extra heater in the winter without tripping the main as I do from

time to time.



I will want to have 240V available though. I did stage lighting for years and

have been given some old moving lights that need repair and the place I work

doesn't want to put the money into them. They are old Martin Mac 500s and 600s

and they only work on 240V (+/-) power. So what I mainly want the 240 for is so

I can work on them and try to get some of them going again. My question is: If

the marina hooks up another 30 amp sevice, will it be out of phase with the

original one or could it be in phase? It wouldn't do me any good if it's in

phase, so would I need to specify or would it be out of phase and I don't need

to bother them about that detail, do you know?



I don't know a lot about many things and nothing about some things

however electrical power distribution and wiring happens to be one thing

I *do* know something about. I'd hate to see someone hurt or killed

because they received bad input.



Now, I have a question for you. Let's say your house has a 200 amp

service. Your main breaker is a double pole, 200 amp per pole breaker.

There's 240vac between the two "hot" legs and 120vac between either of

them and neutral. Each hot leg from the utility pole is sized for 200

amps for each side of the service, yet the neutral is also only sized

for 200 amps. Why isn't it sized for 400 amps, the sum of both sides of

the total service?



See if the answer is in your "electrical" book.



Is this a job you are gonna' do yourself? snerk





No, it's not a job. It's a question. Can you answer it with all your

experience wiring homes, barns and whatever?



Look, any handyman can do basic wiring in their house. It's not rocket

science. But knowing something about current capacities, codes and

particularly how the power in a house, commercial building or a *boat*

is distributed requires more than a handy dandy DIY book from the Home

Depot.



I am not an electrician. I am an electrical engineer. If I wanted a

new power service installed in my house or was doing a major upgrade to

the existing service, I'd hire a licensed, master electrician to do the

job.



BTW, the answer to the question I asked is because the two "hot" legs

are 180 degrees out of phase relative to each other, so the net current

flowing through the neutral leg adds algebraically. The current through

the neutral leg can never exceed 200 amperes.



Thanks for sharing that. I still have the question of whether the the two 30 amp

120s would necessarily be out of phase though, even though what you wrote leads

me to believe they probably would be.

The "phase" of conventional residential is debated a bit as some don't think it is two phase and some do.

The important thing for you is that 240v service will have 2 hots, 1 neutral, and 1 ground. Between either of the hots and the neutral you will see 120vac. The same 120vac you are using now. Between the two hots you will see 240vac.

Your biggest problem is that your current panel inside the boat most likely only accomodates 1 hot, 1 neutral, and 1 ground. If that is true you really need a new panel to safely use the 240vac 50amp service. The regular service breakers you have for outlets and lights are typically distributed evenly between the two hots. Any 240vac connections like heat will use a ganged breaker connecting to both hots.

Now you likely do not have to take advantage of the new power at the dock if you don't want to. Simply ignore one of the two new hots. Connect one hot, one neutral, and one ground to your existing setup. Presuming you have a 30amp main for the one hot. Or you make sure everything between the panel and the shore can handle 50 amps.

Do you have a "main" breaker inside that turns off everything? If so, how many amps is it?

It is very unlikely that you have 3-phase service btw. That's commercial.



I've heard electricians refer to a residential service to your home as a
"split phase" service. I agree there is some confusion as to calling it
"two phase" however, as you correctly state, it does have two hot legs
that are 180 degrees out of phase with each other. In my mind that
means there are two, out of phase hot legs. A 3 phase commercial
service would have three hot legs that are 120 degrees out of phase with
each other.

I agree that the OP's actual service to his boat at the pedistal is not
3 phase however the distributed service to the marina could very
likely be a commercial, 3 phase service. It could also be a split phase
like a residential service however depending on the marina size.
Regardless, if the OP wants to get something close to 220vac for testing
his stage lights, he's going to need two hot legs.

??? upgrading shore power to 50A 220V
 

On Monday, March 24, 2014 3:41:13 PM UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 3/24/2014 3:26 PM, wrote:

On Saturday, March 22, 2014 1:33:11 PM UTC-4, da...@righthere... wrote:

On Tue, 18 Mar 2014 08:01:29 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:







On 3/18/2014 7:42 AM, KC wrote:



On 3/18/2014 3:34 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:



On 3/18/2014 12:22 AM, KC wrote:



On 3/17/2014 7:57 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:



On 3/17/2014 7:14 PM, wrote:



On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 18:19:42 -0400, KC wrote:







On 3/17/2014 6:01 PM, david@righthere... wrote:



I've been on 30A 120V power at the dock for years and would now like



to upgrade



to 50A 220V, or what they refer to as 50A 250V at the marina office.



I haven't



put a meter on it yet but so far suspect it's closer to 220 than



250. The socket



on the pedestal is like the one pictured he







http://www.catagle.com/68-153/CWD_Ar...uyersGuide.htm







They say it's 3-pole 4-wire. I'm guessing X and Y are the two hot



legs and W is



the neutral. Between X or Y and W would be 120V+/- and between X and



Y is the



220/250V. Right? How does the ground tie into it though? With only 3



poles do we



run a separate wire from the boat to the pedestal, and if so how do



we tie in?







Also can anyone suggest the cheapest place to get a plug like that?



So far the



best price I've found is $68.18 he







http://www.ktool.net/servlet/the-581...-63CR65/Detail























Thank you for any help!



David











The plug is 10-20 bucks at home depot or lowes, Scottys whatever you



have. It's a dryer plug basically... As to the wiring, I forget but I



have a book I always use when I do the wiring.. It was about 20



bucks at



home depot, I have had it for as long as I have owned a house....







Not true at all, sorry.







This is a non-NEMA twist lock 50a plug, that is corrosion resistant.







A dryer plug is a NEMA 14-30 straight blade that would go south pretty



quickly on a pier.















Yup. I think Scotty should stick to building websites and not wiring



boats.















Why, cause I took a quick look and made a mistake? I have done a lot of



wiring in my time including my whole house to code in Essex from moving



in with full Knob and Tube... I have done barns, and wells. When you



have a 100 year old house you tend to pick up stuff. You should see me



sweat a pipe.... even if I don't know all the right terminology. Either



way, that's why I always keep my electrical book with me to check my own



work as I go....











Scott, the OP didn't say if he was re-wiring his *boat* for a 50 amp,



240v marine split service. He might be just trying to use one leg of it



to supply 50 amps to his existing 30 amp, 120v boat panel. If so, he's



taking a big risk because it's not just the plug in question. The



primary feed wires in the boat that run from the power inlet to the



power panel needs to be changed at a minimum. Plus, if the existing



power panel has a 30 amp main, supplying it with 50 amps isn't going to



do him any good. If he changes that to a 50 amp breaker without doing



any changes to the wiring, he could overheat the primary feed wiring in



the boat, causing a fire.







My comment was more than pointing out that a split, 50 amp marine



service plug is not a dryer plug.







I did what I think he is trying to accomplish on the Grand Banks we had.



It had a standard, 30 amp, 120v service. I wanted to add two



air-conditioning units to the boat. Rather than change everything over



to a 50 amp, 240v split service I simply added another 30 amp, 120v



marine inlet connector, wiring (marine type) and a small, dedicated



breaker box with two 15 amp breakers in it, one for each of the AC units.







After talking to a guy at West Marine that's the type of thing I'll do too if I



follow through with it. I might add a couple of extra outlets too, in case I



want to run an extra heater in the winter without tripping the main as I do from



time to time.







I will want to have 240V available though. I did stage lighting for years and



have been given some old moving lights that need repair and the place I work



doesn't want to put the money into them. They are old Martin Mac 500s and 600s



and they only work on 240V (+/-) power. So what I mainly want the 240 for is so



I can work on them and try to get some of them going again. My question is: If



the marina hooks up another 30 amp sevice, will it be out of phase with the



original one or could it be in phase? It wouldn't do me any good if it's in



phase, so would I need to specify or would it be out of phase and I don't need



to bother them about that detail, do you know?







I don't know a lot about many things and nothing about some things



however electrical power distribution and wiring happens to be one thing



I *do* know something about. I'd hate to see someone hurt or killed



because they received bad input.







Now, I have a question for you. Let's say your house has a 200 amp



service. Your main breaker is a double pole, 200 amp per pole breaker.



There's 240vac between the two "hot" legs and 120vac between either of



them and neutral. Each hot leg from the utility pole is sized for 200



amps for each side of the service, yet the neutral is also only sized



for 200 amps. Why isn't it sized for 400 amps, the sum of both sides of



the total service?







See if the answer is in your "electrical" book.







Is this a job you are gonna' do yourself? snerk











No, it's not a job. It's a question. Can you answer it with all your



experience wiring homes, barns and whatever?







Look, any handyman can do basic wiring in their house. It's not rocket



science. But knowing something about current capacities, codes and



particularly how the power in a house, commercial building or a *boat*



is distributed requires more than a handy dandy DIY book from the Home



Depot.







I am not an electrician. I am an electrical engineer. If I wanted a



new power service installed in my house or was doing a major upgrade to



the existing service, I'd hire a licensed, master electrician to do the



job.







BTW, the answer to the question I asked is because the two "hot" legs



are 180 degrees out of phase relative to each other, so the net current



flowing through the neutral leg adds algebraically. The current through



the neutral leg can never exceed 200 amperes.







Thanks for sharing that. I still have the question of whether the the two 30 amp



120s would necessarily be out of phase though, even though what you wrote leads



me to believe they probably would be.



The "phase" of conventional residential is debated a bit as some don't think it is two phase and some do.



The important thing for you is that 240v service will have 2 hots, 1 neutral, and 1 ground. Between either of the hots and the neutral you will see 120vac. The same 120vac you are using now. Between the two hots you will see 240vac.



Your biggest problem is that your current panel inside the boat most likely only accomodates 1 hot, 1 neutral, and 1 ground. If that is true you really need a new panel to safely use the 240vac 50amp service. The regular service breakers you have for outlets and lights are typically distributed evenly between the two hots. Any 240vac connections like heat will use a ganged breaker connecting to both hots.



Now you likely do not have to take advantage of the new power at the dock if you don't want to. Simply ignore one of the two new hots. Connect one hot, one neutral, and one ground to your existing setup. Presuming you have a 30amp main for the one hot. Or you make sure everything between the panel and the shore can handle 50 amps.



Do you have a "main" breaker inside that turns off everything? If so, how many amps is it?



It is very unlikely that you have 3-phase service btw. That's commercial.







I've heard electricians refer to a residential service to your home as a

"split phase" service. I agree there is some confusion as to calling it

"two phase" however, as you correctly state, it does have two hot legs

that are 180 degrees out of phase with each other. In my mind that

means there are two, out of phase hot legs. A 3 phase commercial

service would have three hot legs that are 120 degrees out of phase with

each other.



I agree that the OP's actual service to his boat at the pedistal is not

3 phase however the distributed service to the marina could very

likely be a commercial, 3 phase service. It could also be a split phase

like a residential service however depending on the marina size.

Regardless, if the OP wants to get something close to 220vac for testing

his stage lights, he's going to need two hot legs.

The possibility of 3 phase commercial service somewhere in the marina is immaterial. In this case bringing it up only creates the possibility of confusing the op. His 240v 50amp service at the dock will be the same as is found in US residential homes.

??? upgrading shore power to 50A 220V
 

On 3/24/2014 4:15 PM, wrote:
On Monday, March 24, 2014 3:41:13 PM UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 3/24/2014 3:26 PM, wrote:

On Saturday, March 22, 2014 1:33:11 PM UTC-4, da...@righthere... wrote:

On Tue, 18 Mar 2014 08:01:29 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:







On 3/18/2014 7:42 AM, KC wrote:



On 3/18/2014 3:34 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:



On 3/18/2014 12:22 AM, KC wrote:



On 3/17/2014 7:57 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:



On 3/17/2014 7:14 PM, wrote:



On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 18:19:42 -0400, KC wrote:







On 3/17/2014 6:01 PM, david@righthere... wrote:



I've been on 30A 120V power at the dock for years and would now like



to upgrade



to 50A 220V, or what they refer to as 50A 250V at the marina office.



I haven't



put a meter on it yet but so far suspect it's closer to 220 than



250. The socket



on the pedestal is like the one pictured he







http://www.catagle.com/68-153/CWD_Ar...uyersGuide.htm







They say it's 3-pole 4-wire. I'm guessing X and Y are the two hot



legs and W is



the neutral. Between X or Y and W would be 120V+/- and between X and



Y is the



220/250V. Right? How does the ground tie into it though? With only 3



poles do we



run a separate wire from the boat to the pedestal, and if so how do



we tie in?







Also can anyone suggest the cheapest place to get a plug like that?



So far the



best price I've found is $68.18 he







http://www.ktool.net/servlet/the-581...-63CR65/Detail























Thank you for any help!



David











The plug is 10-20 bucks at home depot or lowes, Scottys whatever you



have. It's a dryer plug basically... As to the wiring, I forget but I



have a book I always use when I do the wiring.. It was about 20



bucks at



home depot, I have had it for as long as I have owned a house...







Not true at all, sorry.







This is a non-NEMA twist lock 50a plug, that is corrosion resistant.







A dryer plug is a NEMA 14-30 straight blade that would go south pretty



quickly on a pier.















Yup. I think Scotty should stick to building websites and not wiring



boats.















Why, cause I took a quick look and made a mistake? I have done a lot of



wiring in my time including my whole house to code in Essex from moving



in with full Knob and Tube... I have done barns, and wells. When you



have a 100 year old house you tend to pick up stuff. You should see me



sweat a pipe.... even if I don't know all the right terminology. Either



way, that's why I always keep my electrical book with me to check my own



work as I go....











Scott, the OP didn't say if he was re-wiring his *boat* for a 50 amp,



240v marine split service. He might be just trying to use one leg of it



to supply 50 amps to his existing 30 amp, 120v boat panel. If so, he's



taking a big risk because it's not just the plug in question. The



primary feed wires in the boat that run from the power inlet to the



power panel needs to be changed at a minimum. Plus, if the existing



power panel has a 30 amp main, supplying it with 50 amps isn't going to



do him any good. If he changes that to a 50 amp breaker without doing



any changes to the wiring, he could overheat the primary feed wiring in



the boat, causing a fire.







My comment was more than pointing out that a split, 50 amp marine



service plug is not a dryer plug.







I did what I think he is trying to accomplish on the Grand Banks we had.



It had a standard, 30 amp, 120v service. I wanted to add two



air-conditioning units to the boat. Rather than change everything over



to a 50 amp, 240v split service I simply added another 30 amp, 120v



marine inlet connector, wiring (marine type) and a small, dedicated



breaker box with two 15 amp breakers in it, one for each of the AC units.







After talking to a guy at West Marine that's the type of thing I'll do too if I



follow through with it. I might add a couple of extra outlets too, in case I



want to run an extra heater in the winter without tripping the main as I do from



time to time.







I will want to have 240V available though. I did stage lighting for years and



have been given some old moving lights that need repair and the place I work



doesn't want to put the money into them. They are old Martin Mac 500s and 600s



and they only work on 240V (+/-) power. So what I mainly want the 240 for is so



I can work on them and try to get some of them going again. My question is: If



the marina hooks up another 30 amp sevice, will it be out of phase with the



original one or could it be in phase? It wouldn't do me any good if it's in



phase, so would I need to specify or would it be out of phase and I don't need



to bother them about that detail, do you know?







I don't know a lot about many things and nothing about some things



however electrical power distribution and wiring happens to be one thing



I *do* know something about. I'd hate to see someone hurt or killed



because they received bad input.







Now, I have a question for you. Let's say your house has a 200 amp



service. Your main breaker is a double pole, 200 amp per pole breaker.



There's 240vac between the two "hot" legs and 120vac between either of



them and neutral. Each hot leg from the utility pole is sized for 200



amps for each side of the service, yet the neutral is also only sized



for 200 amps. Why isn't it sized for 400 amps, the sum of both sides of



the total service?







See if the answer is in your "electrical" book.







Is this a job you are gonna' do yourself? snerk











No, it's not a job. It's a question. Can you answer it with all your



experience wiring homes, barns and whatever?







Look, any handyman can do basic wiring in their house. It's not rocket



science. But knowing something about current capacities, codes and



particularly how the power in a house, commercial building or a *boat*



is distributed requires more than a handy dandy DIY book from the Home



Depot.







I am not an electrician. I am an electrical engineer. If I wanted a



new power service installed in my house or was doing a major upgrade to



the existing service, I'd hire a licensed, master electrician to do the



job.







BTW, the answer to the question I asked is because the two "hot" legs



are 180 degrees out of phase relative to each other, so the net current



flowing through the neutral leg adds algebraically. The current through



the neutral leg can never exceed 200 amperes.







Thanks for sharing that. I still have the question of whether the the two 30 amp



120s would necessarily be out of phase though, even though what you wrote leads



me to believe they probably would be.



The "phase" of conventional residential is debated a bit as some don't think it is two phase and some do.



The important thing for you is that 240v service will have 2 hots, 1 neutral, and 1 ground. Between either of the hots and the neutral you will see 120vac. The same 120vac you are using now. Between the two hots you will see 240vac.



Your biggest problem is that your current panel inside the boat most likely only accomodates 1 hot, 1 neutral, and 1 ground. If that is true you really need a new panel to safely use the 240vac 50amp service. The regular service breakers you have for outlets and lights are typically distributed evenly between the two hots. Any 240vac connections like heat will use a ganged breaker connecting to both hots.



Now you likely do not have to take advantage of the new power at the dock if you don't want to. Simply ignore one of the two new hots. Connect one hot, one neutral, and one ground to your existing setup. Presuming you have a 30amp main for the one hot. Or you make sure everything between the panel and the shore can handle 50 amps.



Do you have a "main" breaker inside that turns off everything? If so, how many amps is it?



It is very unlikely that you have 3-phase service btw. That's commercial.







I've heard electricians refer to a residential service to your home as a

"split phase" service. I agree there is some confusion as to calling it

"two phase" however, as you correctly state, it does have two hot legs

that are 180 degrees out of phase with each other. In my mind that

means there are two, out of phase hot legs. A 3 phase commercial

service would have three hot legs that are 120 degrees out of phase with

each other.



I agree that the OP's actual service to his boat at the pedistal is not

3 phase however the distributed service to the marina could very

likely be a commercial, 3 phase service. It could also be a split phase

like a residential service however depending on the marina size.

Regardless, if the OP wants to get something close to 220vac for testing

his stage lights, he's going to need two hot legs.

The possibility of 3 phase commercial service somewhere in the marina is immaterial.
In this case bringing it up only creates the possibility of confusing
the op.
His 240v 50amp service at the dock will be the same as is found in US
residential homes.

So? I don't understand how that changes anything. He still needs a
second hot leg, either from a distributed 3 phase system or a split
phase system. He acknowledged that he's not trying to change the
service in his boat from a 120vac, 30 amp service to a 250vac, 50 amp
service. He just wants 208vac, 220vac or 240vac to test some stage
lighting. Understanding how that service is delivered is important to
his intended purpose, don't you think, especially if he is not an
electrician as I suspect?

I stand by my previous comments, including my suggestion to employ the
help of a licensed electrician if he is not familiar or sure how it is done.

??? upgrading shore power to 50A 220V
 

On 3/24/2014 4:34 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 24 Mar 2014 15:41:13 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

I've heard electricians refer to a residential service to your home as a
"split phase" service. I agree there is some confusion as to calling it
"two phase"

They must not have been real electricians.
The typical home service is single phase, center tapped.
Split phase is a type of motor winding and two phase is a whole
different animal altogether (5 wire with two pairs of ungrounded
conductors, 90 degrees out of phase)
The topology of two phase is like a +.



I understand and I didn't say it was accurate. However, as the other
poster pointed out there is sometimes some confusion as to what a home
service is called since you *do* have two hot legs 180 degrees out of
phase. The "split phase" isn't a reference to how a motor is wound in
this case. It's a reference to the center tapped, 240v service
producing two hot legs 180 degrees out of phase referenced to neutral.

The terminology used to describe it has been a subject of debate for years.

??? upgrading shore power to 50A 220V
 

On Monday, March 24, 2014 4:41:27 PM UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 3/24/2014 4:15 PM, wrote:

On Monday, March 24, 2014 3:41:13 PM UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote:

On 3/24/2014 3:26 PM, wrote:



On Saturday, March 22, 2014 1:33:11 PM UTC-4, da...@righthere... wrote:



On Tue, 18 Mar 2014 08:01:29 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:















On 3/18/2014 7:42 AM, KC wrote:







On 3/18/2014 3:34 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:







On 3/18/2014 12:22 AM, KC wrote:







On 3/17/2014 7:57 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:







On 3/17/2014 7:14 PM, wrote:







On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 18:19:42 -0400, KC wrote:















On 3/17/2014 6:01 PM, david@righthere... wrote:







I've been on 30A 120V power at the dock for years and would now like







to upgrade







to 50A 220V, or what they refer to as 50A 250V at the marina office.







I haven't







put a meter on it yet but so far suspect it's closer to 220 than







250. The socket







on the pedestal is like the one pictured he















http://www.catagle.com/68-153/CWD_Ar...uyersGuide.htm















They say it's 3-pole 4-wire. I'm guessing X and Y are the two hot







legs and W is







the neutral. Between X or Y and W would be 120V+/- and between X and







Y is the







220/250V. Right? How does the ground tie into it though? With only 3







poles do we







run a separate wire from the boat to the pedestal, and if so how do







we tie in?















Also can anyone suggest the cheapest place to get a plug like that?







So far the







best price I've found is $68.18 he















http://www.ktool.net/servlet/the-581...-63CR65/Detail















































Thank you for any help!







David























The plug is 10-20 bucks at home depot or lowes, Scottys whatever you







have. It's a dryer plug basically... As to the wiring, I forget but I







have a book I always use when I do the wiring.. It was about 20







bucks at







home depot, I have had it for as long as I have owned a house....















Not true at all, sorry.















This is a non-NEMA twist lock 50a plug, that is corrosion resistant.















A dryer plug is a NEMA 14-30 straight blade that would go south pretty







quickly on a pier.































Yup. I think Scotty should stick to building websites and not wiring







boats.































Why, cause I took a quick look and made a mistake? I have done a lot of







wiring in my time including my whole house to code in Essex from moving







in with full Knob and Tube... I have done barns, and wells. When you







have a 100 year old house you tend to pick up stuff. You should see me







sweat a pipe.... even if I don't know all the right terminology. Either







way, that's why I always keep my electrical book with me to check my own







work as I go....























Scott, the OP didn't say if he was re-wiring his *boat* for a 50 amp,







240v marine split service. He might be just trying to use one leg of it







to supply 50 amps to his existing 30 amp, 120v boat panel. If so, he's







taking a big risk because it's not just the plug in question. The







primary feed wires in the boat that run from the power inlet to the







power panel needs to be changed at a minimum. Plus, if the existing







power panel has a 30 amp main, supplying it with 50 amps isn't going to







do him any good. If he changes that to a 50 amp breaker without doing







any changes to the wiring, he could overheat the primary feed wiring in







the boat, causing a fire.















My comment was more than pointing out that a split, 50 amp marine







service plug is not a dryer plug.















I did what I think he is trying to accomplish on the Grand Banks we had.







It had a standard, 30 amp, 120v service. I wanted to add two







air-conditioning units to the boat. Rather than change everything over







to a 50 amp, 240v split service I simply added another 30 amp, 120v







marine inlet connector, wiring (marine type) and a small, dedicated







breaker box with two 15 amp breakers in it, one for each of the AC units.















After talking to a guy at West Marine that's the type of thing I'll do too if I







follow through with it. I might add a couple of extra outlets too, in case I







want to run an extra heater in the winter without tripping the main as I do from







time to time.















I will want to have 240V available though. I did stage lighting for years and







have been given some old moving lights that need repair and the place I work







doesn't want to put the money into them. They are old Martin Mac 500s and 600s







and they only work on 240V (+/-) power. So what I mainly want the 240 for is so







I can work on them and try to get some of them going again. My question is: If







the marina hooks up another 30 amp sevice, will it be out of phase with the







original one or could it be in phase? It wouldn't do me any good if it's in







phase, so would I need to specify or would it be out of phase and I don't need







to bother them about that detail, do you know?















I don't know a lot about many things and nothing about some things







however electrical power distribution and wiring happens to be one thing







I *do* know something about. I'd hate to see someone hurt or killed







because they received bad input.















Now, I have a question for you. Let's say your house has a 200 amp







service. Your main breaker is a double pole, 200 amp per pole breaker.







There's 240vac between the two "hot" legs and 120vac between either of







them and neutral. Each hot leg from the utility pole is sized for 200







amps for each side of the service, yet the neutral is also only sized







for 200 amps. Why isn't it sized for 400 amps, the sum of both sides of







the total service?















See if the answer is in your "electrical" book.















Is this a job you are gonna' do yourself? snerk























No, it's not a job. It's a question. Can you answer it with all your







experience wiring homes, barns and whatever?















Look, any handyman can do basic wiring in their house. It's not rocket







science. But knowing something about current capacities, codes and







particularly how the power in a house, commercial building or a *boat*







is distributed requires more than a handy dandy DIY book from the Home







Depot.















I am not an electrician. I am an electrical engineer. If I wanted a







new power service installed in my house or was doing a major upgrade to







the existing service, I'd hire a licensed, master electrician to do the







job.















BTW, the answer to the question I asked is because the two "hot" legs







are 180 degrees out of phase relative to each other, so the net current







flowing through the neutral leg adds algebraically. The current through







the neutral leg can never exceed 200 amperes.















Thanks for sharing that. I still have the question of whether the the two 30 amp







120s would necessarily be out of phase though, even though what you wrote leads







me to believe they probably would be.







The "phase" of conventional residential is debated a bit as some don't think it is two phase and some do.







The important thing for you is that 240v service will have 2 hots, 1 neutral, and 1 ground. Between either of the hots and the neutral you will see 120vac. The same 120vac you are using now. Between the two hots you will see 240vac.







Your biggest problem is that your current panel inside the boat most likely only accomodates 1 hot, 1 neutral, and 1 ground. If that is true you really need a new panel to safely use the 240vac 50amp service. The regular service breakers you have for outlets and lights are typically distributed evenly between the two hots. Any 240vac connections like heat will use a ganged breaker connecting to both hots.







Now you likely do not have to take advantage of the new power at the dock if you don't want to. Simply ignore one of the two new hots. Connect one hot, one neutral, and one ground to your existing setup. Presuming you have a 30amp main for the one hot. Or you make sure everything between the panel and the shore can handle 50 amps.







Do you have a "main" breaker inside that turns off everything? If so, how many amps is it?







It is very unlikely that you have 3-phase service btw. That's commercial.















I've heard electricians refer to a residential service to your home as a



"split phase" service. I agree there is some confusion as to calling it



"two phase" however, as you correctly state, it does have two hot legs



that are 180 degrees out of phase with each other. In my mind that



means there are two, out of phase hot legs. A 3 phase commercial



service would have three hot legs that are 120 degrees out of phase with



each other.







I agree that the OP's actual service to his boat at the pedistal is not



3 phase however the distributed service to the marina could very



likely be a commercial, 3 phase service. It could also be a split phase



like a residential service however depending on the marina size.



Regardless, if the OP wants to get something close to 220vac for testing



his stage lights, he's going to need two hot legs.



The possibility of 3 phase commercial service somewhere in the marina is immaterial.

In this case bringing it up only creates the possibility of confusing

the op.

His 240v 50amp service at the dock will be the same as is found in US

residential homes.



So? I don't understand how that changes anything. He still needs a

second hot leg, either from a distributed 3 phase system or a split

phase system. He acknowledged that he's not trying to change the

service in his boat from a 120vac, 30 amp service to a 250vac, 50 amp

service. He just wants 208vac, 220vac or 240vac to test some stage

lighting. Understanding how that service is delivered is important to

his intended purpose, don't you think, especially if he is not an

electrician as I suspect?



I stand by my previous comments, including my suggestion to employ the

help of a licensed electrician if he is not familiar or sure how it is done.

No, he doesn't need to understand anything about how his service is delivered! He just needs to understand that he has 2 hots and 1 neutral. If he wants 120 he uses one hot and the neutral. If he wants 240 he uses the 2 hots. He should always use the ground as ground if what ever he is connecting has a ground lead. That's it, end of story. He does not need to know any more than that.