That's only if you can find a surveyor who knows his ass from a hole
in the ground - both in general and in particular about these crappy
boats - and then pay $600 to find out it's an over-priced piece of
**** that needs $55K worth of attention. What a deal.

Look somewhere else 1st and steer clear of the teaky-turds.

PS - by standing rigging I mean turnbuckles - stupid cheap buyers of
these bad boads never replace the original bad turnbuckles - and
chainplates fail when they fail - this is a waste of keystrokes -
you're obviously not a real cruiser. Read you own statements and see
if you want to buy all these potential or real problems.



On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:38:25 -0500, "Karin Conover-Lewis"
wrote:

As a former owner of a CT-41, I can only say that this is the most
ridiculous statement I've read here, not directly attributable to JAX. Yes,
some CT/Formosas were finished poorly. At worst, this means judging each and
every boat individually. Dryrot problems in the deckhouse and other plywood
structures (including the deck) are not at all uncommon, but a good many of
them have been properly repaired (or even entirely rebuilt) over the years,
and can be in very good condition indeed. The standing rigging on virtually
all of them would have been replaced over the years (replacement of running
rigging is a given) , and chainplates that were going to fail would have
demonstrated this problem long ago and been replaced. Even assuming the
chainplates need complete replacement, it is not a particularly costly or
difficult task. As for electrical and plumbing systems, *any* boat which is
30-40 years old is a good candidate for improvements and upgrades to those
systems if it hasn't already been done. Those boats should also be priced
accordingly. But this has no bearing whatsoever on the overall seaworthiness
or seakindliness of the CT/Formosa class of boats. The hulls are
excellent -- *particularly* for blue-water cruising. I will grant that the
tanks may well need replacement -- MAY. I would not state off-hand that such
a statement can be applied to ALL of these boats.

In short, any of the Taiwan boats MAY be perfectly serviceable -- a thorough
and proper marine survey should weed-out those which require more work than
the buyer is willing to take on.

JAX Wannabe

Yeah, you're absolutely right -- "standing rigging" consists solely of
turnbuckles, which are never replaced with the rest of the standing rigging,
and every CT-41 ever built sank the day it was launched. The only vessel
worthy of ocean voyaging is a Macgregor 26, like the one you "cruise" in.

--
Karin Conover-Lewis
Fair and Balanced since 1959
klc dot lewis at centurytel dot net


"Ace-high" wrote in message
...
That's only if you can find a surveyor who knows his ass from a hole
in the ground - both in general and in particular about these crappy
boats - and then pay $600 to find out it's an over-priced piece of
**** that needs $55K worth of attention. What a deal.

Look somewhere else 1st and steer clear of the teaky-turds.

PS - by standing rigging I mean turnbuckles - stupid cheap buyers of
these bad boads never replace the original bad turnbuckles - and
chainplates fail when they fail - this is a waste of keystrokes -
you're obviously not a real cruiser. Read you own statements and see
if you want to buy all these potential or real problems.

Ace-High:

Your language is atrocious.
You advice is impolite, inaccurate and unwarranted.
Your attitude is unforgivable in a news group.
Please rethink your next response before addressing posters.

Bob

"Ace-high" wrote in message
...
That's only if you can find a surveyor who knows his ass from a hole
in the ground - both in general and in particular about these crappy
boats - and then pay $600 to find out it's an over-priced piece of
**** that needs $55K worth of attention. What a deal.

Look somewhere else 1st and steer clear of the teaky-turds.

PS - by standing rigging I mean turnbuckles - stupid cheap buyers of
these bad boads never replace the original bad turnbuckles - and
chainplates fail when they fail - this is a waste of keystrokes -
you're obviously not a real cruiser. Read you own statements and see
if you want to buy all these potential or real problems.



On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:38:25 -0500, "Karin Conover-Lewis"
wrote:

As a former owner of a CT-41, I can only say that this is the most
ridiculous statement I've read here, not directly attributable to JAX.
Yes,
some CT/Formosas were finished poorly. At worst, this means judging each
and
every boat individually. Dryrot problems in the deckhouse and other
plywood
structures (including the deck) are not at all uncommon, but a good many
of
them have been properly repaired (or even entirely rebuilt) over the
years,
and can be in very good condition indeed. The standing rigging on
virtually
all of them would have been replaced over the years (replacement of
running
rigging is a given) , and chainplates that were going to fail would have
demonstrated this problem long ago and been replaced. Even assuming the
chainplates need complete replacement, it is not a particularly costly or
difficult task. As for electrical and plumbing systems, *any* boat which
is
30-40 years old is a good candidate for improvements and upgrades to
those
systems if it hasn't already been done. Those boats should also be priced
accordingly. But this has no bearing whatsoever on the overall
seaworthiness
or seakindliness of the CT/Formosa class of boats. The hulls are
excellent -- *particularly* for blue-water cruising. I will grant that
the
tanks may well need replacement -- MAY. I would not state off-hand that
such
a statement can be applied to ALL of these boats.

In short, any of the Taiwan boats MAY be perfectly serviceable -- a
thorough
and proper marine survey should weed-out those which require more work
than
the buyer is willing to take on.

Dear Bob,

Thanks for your uncalled for remarks.

My language is nornal - I didn't say **** at all - real cruisers say
that ocasionally. And they drink rum and eat fish
..
My advice is accurate and concise - you might not like it but most/all
of these boats are crappy - and generally a waste of cruisers money.

My attitude - well I've been there and done that - and I don't have to
call myself Salty as a front.

My next response will be more of the cruising truth.

PS - Don't buy a crappy boat and spend years and wasted dollars making
int into an expensive crappy boat. DO - buy a reasonable boat and go
cruising now - before you die choking on all this NG BS from wannabe
know-it-all but never-been cruisers.



On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 10:59:45 -0700, "Salty Bob"
wrote:

Ace-High:

Your language is atrocious.
You advice is impolite, inaccurate and unwarranted.
Your attitude is unforgivable in a news group.
Please rethink your next response before addressing posters.

Bob

"Ace-high" wrote in message
.. .
That's only if you can find a surveyor who knows his ass from a hole
in the ground - both in general and in particular about these crappy
boats - and then pay $600 to find out it's an over-priced piece of
**** that needs $55K worth of attention. What a deal.

Look somewhere else 1st and steer clear of the teaky-turds.

PS - by standing rigging I mean turnbuckles - stupid cheap buyers of
these bad boads never replace the original bad turnbuckles - and
chainplates fail when they fail - this is a waste of keystrokes -
you're obviously not a real cruiser. Read you own statements and see
if you want to buy all these potential or real problems.



On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:38:25 -0500, "Karin Conover-Lewis"
wrote:

As a former owner of a CT-41, I can only say that this is the most
ridiculous statement I've read here, not directly attributable to JAX.
Yes,
some CT/Formosas were finished poorly. At worst, this means judging each
and
every boat individually. Dryrot problems in the deckhouse and other
plywood
structures (including the deck) are not at all uncommon, but a good many
of
them have been properly repaired (or even entirely rebuilt) over the
years,
and can be in very good condition indeed. The standing rigging on
virtually
all of them would have been replaced over the years (replacement of
running
rigging is a given) , and chainplates that were going to fail would have
demonstrated this problem long ago and been replaced. Even assuming the
chainplates need complete replacement, it is not a particularly costly or
difficult task. As for electrical and plumbing systems, *any* boat which
is
30-40 years old is a good candidate for improvements and upgrades to
those
systems if it hasn't already been done. Those boats should also be priced
accordingly. But this has no bearing whatsoever on the overall
seaworthiness
or seakindliness of the CT/Formosa class of boats. The hulls are
excellent -- *particularly* for blue-water cruising. I will grant that
the
tanks may well need replacement -- MAY. I would not state off-hand that
such
a statement can be applied to ALL of these boats.

In short, any of the Taiwan boats MAY be perfectly serviceable -- a
thorough
and proper marine survey should weed-out those which require more work
than
the buyer is willing to take on.

Yawn...

Bob

"Ace-high" wrote in message
...
Dear Bob,

Thanks for your uncalled for remarks.

My language is nornal - I didn't say **** at all - real cruisers say
that ocasionally. And they drink rum and eat fish
.
My advice is accurate and concise - you might not like it but most/all
of these boats are crappy - and generally a waste of cruisers money.

My attitude - well I've been there and done that - and I don't have to
call myself Salty as a front.

My next response will be more of the cruising truth.

PS - Don't buy a crappy boat and spend years and wasted dollars making
int into an expensive crappy boat. DO - buy a reasonable boat and go
cruising now - before you die choking on all this NG BS from wannabe
know-it-all but never-been cruisers.



On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 10:59:45 -0700, "Salty Bob"
wrote:

Ace-High:

Your language is atrocious.
You advice is impolite, inaccurate and unwarranted.
Your attitude is unforgivable in a news group.
Please rethink your next response before addressing posters.

Bob

"Ace-high" wrote in message
.. .
That's only if you can find a surveyor who knows his ass from a hole
in the ground - both in general and in particular about these crappy
boats - and then pay $600 to find out it's an over-priced piece of
**** that needs $55K worth of attention. What a deal.

Look somewhere else 1st and steer clear of the teaky-turds.

PS - by standing rigging I mean turnbuckles - stupid cheap buyers of
these bad boads never replace the original bad turnbuckles - and
chainplates fail when they fail - this is a waste of keystrokes -
you're obviously not a real cruiser. Read you own statements and see
if you want to buy all these potential or real problems.



On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:38:25 -0500, "Karin Conover-Lewis"
wrote:

As a former owner of a CT-41, I can only say that this is the most
ridiculous statement I've read here, not directly attributable to JAX.
Yes,
some CT/Formosas were finished poorly. At worst, this means judging
each
and
every boat individually. Dryrot problems in the deckhouse and other
plywood
structures (including the deck) are not at all uncommon, but a good
many
of
them have been properly repaired (or even entirely rebuilt) over the
years,
and can be in very good condition indeed. The standing rigging on
virtually
all of them would have been replaced over the years (replacement of
running
rigging is a given) , and chainplates that were going to fail would
have
demonstrated this problem long ago and been replaced. Even assuming
the
chainplates need complete replacement, it is not a particularly costly
or
difficult task. As for electrical and plumbing systems, *any* boat
which
is
30-40 years old is a good candidate for improvements and upgrades to
those
systems if it hasn't already been done. Those boats should also be
priced
accordingly. But this has no bearing whatsoever on the overall
seaworthiness
or seakindliness of the CT/Formosa class of boats. The hulls are
excellent -- *particularly* for blue-water cruising. I will grant that
the
tanks may well need replacement -- MAY. I would not state off-hand
that
such
a statement can be applied to ALL of these boats.

In short, any of the Taiwan boats MAY be perfectly serviceable -- a
thorough
and proper marine survey should weed-out those which require more work
than
the buyer is willing to take on.

I think Bob's point is that you probably know little about the subject,
and use sweeping terms that really have no meaning.

Ace-high wrote:

Dear Bob,

Thanks for your uncalled for remarks.

My language is nornal - I didn't say **** at all - real cruisers say
that ocasionally. And they drink rum and eat fish
.
My advice is accurate and concise - you might not like it but most/all
of these boats are crappy - and generally a waste of cruisers money.

My attitude - well I've been there and done that - and I don't have to
call myself Salty as a front.

My next response will be more of the cruising truth.

PS - Don't buy a crappy boat and spend years and wasted dollars making
int into an expensive crappy boat. DO - buy a reasonable boat and go
cruising now - before you die choking on all this NG BS from wannabe
know-it-all but never-been cruisers.



On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 10:59:45 -0700, "Salty Bob"
wrote:


Ace-High:

Your language is atrocious.
You advice is impolite, inaccurate and unwarranted.
Your attitude is unforgivable in a news group.
Please rethink your next response before addressing posters.

Bob

"Ace-high" wrote in message
. ..

That's only if you can find a surveyor who knows his ass from a hole
in the ground - both in general and in particular about these crappy
boats - and then pay $600 to find out it's an over-priced piece of
**** that needs $55K worth of attention. What a deal.

Look somewhere else 1st and steer clear of the teaky-turds.

PS - by standing rigging I mean turnbuckles - stupid cheap buyers of
these bad boads never replace the original bad turnbuckles - and
chainplates fail when they fail - this is a waste of keystrokes -
you're obviously not a real cruiser. Read you own statements and see
if you want to buy all these potential or real problems.



On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:38:25 -0500, "Karin Conover-Lewis"
wrote:


As a former owner of a CT-41, I can only say that this is the most
ridiculous statement I've read here, not directly attributable to JAX.

Yes,

some CT/Formosas were finished poorly. At worst, this means judging each

and

every boat individually. Dryrot problems in the deckhouse and other

plywood

structures (including the deck) are not at all uncommon, but a good many

of

them have been properly repaired (or even entirely rebuilt) over the

years,

and can be in very good condition indeed. The standing rigging on

virtually

all of them would have been replaced over the years (replacement of

running

rigging is a given) , and chainplates that were going to fail would have
demonstrated this problem long ago and been replaced. Even assuming the
chainplates need complete replacement, it is not a particularly costly or
difficult task. As for electrical and plumbing systems, *any* boat which

is

30-40 years old is a good candidate for improvements and upgrades to

those

systems if it hasn't already been done. Those boats should also be priced
accordingly. But this has no bearing whatsoever on the overall

seaworthiness

or seakindliness of the CT/Formosa class of boats. The hulls are
excellent -- *particularly* for blue-water cruising. I will grant that

the

tanks may well need replacement -- MAY. I would not state off-hand that

such

a statement can be applied to ALL of these boats.

In short, any of the Taiwan boats MAY be perfectly serviceable -- a

thorough

and proper marine survey should weed-out those which require more work

than

the buyer is willing to take on.

Dear Jim -

It doesn't matter to me - buy that piece of **** - or better yet -
have your Mother buy you one -

If you guys can't tell **** from shinola - anything I say ain't gonna
help you learn.

Repeat - PS - Don't buy a crappy boat and spend years and wasted
dollars making into an expensive crappy boat. DO - buy a reasonable
boat and go cruising now - before you die choking on all this NG BS
from wannabe know-it-all but never-been cruisers.



On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 02:09:00 GMT, Jim wrote:

I think Bob's point is that you probably know little about the subject,
and use sweeping terms that really have no meaning.

Ace-high wrote:

Dear Bob,

Thanks for your uncalled for remarks.

My language is nornal - I didn't say **** at all - real cruisers say
that ocasionally. And they drink rum and eat fish
.
My advice is accurate and concise - you might not like it but most/all
of these boats are crappy - and generally a waste of cruisers money.

My attitude - well I've been there and done that - and I don't have to
call myself Salty as a front.

My next response will be more of the cruising truth.

PS - Don't buy a crappy boat and spend years and wasted dollars making
int into an expensive crappy boat. DO - buy a reasonable boat and go
cruising now - before you die choking on all this NG BS from wannabe
know-it-all but never-been cruisers.



On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 10:59:45 -0700, "Salty Bob"
wrote:


Ace-High:

Your language is atrocious.
You advice is impolite, inaccurate and unwarranted.
Your attitude is unforgivable in a news group.
Please rethink your next response before addressing posters.

Bob

"Ace-high" wrote in message
...

That's only if you can find a surveyor who knows his ass from a hole
in the ground - both in general and in particular about these crappy
boats - and then pay $600 to find out it's an over-priced piece of
**** that needs $55K worth of attention. What a deal.

Look somewhere else 1st and steer clear of the teaky-turds.

PS - by standing rigging I mean turnbuckles - stupid cheap buyers of
these bad boads never replace the original bad turnbuckles - and
chainplates fail when they fail - this is a waste of keystrokes -
you're obviously not a real cruiser. Read you own statements and see
if you want to buy all these potential or real problems.



On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:38:25 -0500, "Karin Conover-Lewis"
wrote:


As a former owner of a CT-41, I can only say that this is the most
ridiculous statement I've read here, not directly attributable to JAX.

Yes,

some CT/Formosas were finished poorly. At worst, this means judging each

and

every boat individually. Dryrot problems in the deckhouse and other

plywood

structures (including the deck) are not at all uncommon, but a good many

of

them have been properly repaired (or even entirely rebuilt) over the

years,

and can be in very good condition indeed. The standing rigging on

virtually

all of them would have been replaced over the years (replacement of

running

rigging is a given) , and chainplates that were going to fail would have
demonstrated this problem long ago and been replaced. Even assuming the
chainplates need complete replacement, it is not a particularly costly or
difficult task. As for electrical and plumbing systems, *any* boat which

is

30-40 years old is a good candidate for improvements and upgrades to

those

systems if it hasn't already been done. Those boats should also be priced
accordingly. But this has no bearing whatsoever on the overall

seaworthiness

or seakindliness of the CT/Formosa class of boats. The hulls are
excellent -- *particularly* for blue-water cruising. I will grant that

the

tanks may well need replacement -- MAY. I would not state off-hand that

such

a statement can be applied to ALL of these boats.

In short, any of the Taiwan boats MAY be perfectly serviceable -- a

thorough

and proper marine survey should weed-out those which require more work

than

the buyer is willing to take on.

You can't polish a turd, but if you drink enough olive-oil it will
probably come out shiny.
A lot of people have limited resources, but can buy olive oil.

-keith

Dear Jim -

It doesn't matter to me - buy that piece of **** - or better yet -
have your Mother buy you one -

If you guys can't tell **** from shinola - anything I say ain't gonna
help you learn.

Repeat - PS - Don't buy a crappy boat and spend years and wasted
dollars making into an expensive crappy boat. DO - buy a reasonable
boat and go cruising now - before you die choking on all this NG BS
from wannabe know-it-all but never-been cruisers.

I actually own and sail a Vagabond 47 and have had none of the problems
identified by Mr. Ace-High. I have owned the boat one year and sailed it
about 2000 miles. I have found the boat very seaworthy, no deck leaks.
It is a 1983 and has had the rigging replaced when they replaced the
wooden masts with aluminum. Being ketch rigged it is easily handled by
two people. We are living on it and find it compfortable and roomy. It
sails well on a beam reach or down wind. As you would expect, it doesn't
point well. It is not fast. You can sail reasonably in 10 knot wind, but
does best in 20. 15-20 makes for a pleasant sail. I have had it out in
30 knot winds and stayed dry and felt safe. I averaged 5-6 knots bringing
the boat up the East Coast. It has a full keel with all the associated
pluses and minuses . This particular boat has been sailed from Taiwan to
California, then through the Panama Canal and up the East Coast. I would
make the same decision to buy her again. My wife would leave me if I sold
her. As with any older boat and particularly with a teak deck, you have
to be careful and know what you're getting. I have a good friend who has
captained everything from a square rigger to oil tankers and he has
nothing but praise for the Vagabond. Good luck. Hope this was helpful.