On 2/13/2014 8:32 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 8:19 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/13/2014 8:06 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 7:50 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/13/2014 7:33 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 19:05:45 -0500, KC wrote:

On 2/13/2014 6:11 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/13/2014 5:07 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 5:02 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 16:37:10 -0500, KC
wrote:

On 2/13/2014 4:04 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:29:25 -0500, KC
wrote:

On 2/13/2014 12:16 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 10:20:32 -0500, KC
wrote:

On 2/13/2014 10:13 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/13/2014 8:17 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:39:23 -0500, KC

wrote:

On 2/12/2014 11:22 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 8:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:14:08 -0500, KC
wrote:




https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch









nd the rear tire is tracking inside
the track of the front tire..

There may be a couple exceptions such as corners that
are too
sharp for
normal tracking... Again, those tracks are made for
drifting/countersteering so they will be faster in that
mode..

All of 'em.



https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch








Please John, end the madness... Take a second and go to the
link
above
and post a quick link of the motorcycle you see in the first
say,
half
of the page where the front wheel is turned away from the
radius
and the
rear tire is tracking outside the front tire radius... or
what
you call
countersteering. You said all of 'em. Apparently you don't
know
what
countersteering really is....

I've already answered it. They got to where they are by
countersteering. They are staying in the
turn because they are pushing on the handlebar
corresponding to
the direction of the turn. Push
left, go left. Push right, go right.

Here, now you look at something.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivwZ_DEFHrc


No question there... I had that save my ass on my CB500 Twin
which
supposedly had a "Triumph" style front end. I hit a huge
chunk of
frozen
slush and it kicked my tire out so I got loose, and let the
thing
swing
back and fourth till it stood itself back up, I pulled over and
cleaned
my pants out... literally...

I understand the technique completely, no issue there I have a
high
level of what they call three dimensional comprehension... I
actually
see the forces of water and gyros, etc in my head when I
design, I
used
to see how water would work around boat hulls when I drew them
and
where
the drag would be etc... Put it in the computer and it was
right,
used
to talk about it a lot with my engineer bud in Gloucester...

Anyway, to countersteering (which I believe in

It's not a question of belief, It's what is.

My only point is I
"can" initiate a turn without countersteering by meerely
shifting my
weight before initiating the turn.

Very often it seems like a lean is initiating the turn, but in
reality it's the pressure you're
putting on the handlebar when you lean. For example, if I don't
exert any pressure on the handlebar,
I can lean over and pull my pants leg down without making a
turn.
Have you never done that? Oh, I
suppose you could lean enough to change lanes on the highway,
but
you'd not want to try taking any
sharp curves that way.

At the same time I also understand
that in the emergency situation when you don't have time to set
up,
the
countersteer is the only way to start the turn... You see, I
get
it, but
still like the guy in your vid said... "The countersteer
initiates
the
turn, but the gyro effect immediately corrects it"...

The gyro effect immediately brings the bike back up - if the
countersteering is stopped - i.e., no
more pressure on the handle bar. If the pushing on the bar is
continued, the bike will lean more and
turn more sharply.

or you would
really be on the pavement... If you are countersteering through
the
corner (over riding the natural "steering force" tendency to
"correct"),
you are sliding the back tire sideways and scrubbing off
speed....

Totally wrong. If your speed is too fast for the turn, *then*
you
may slide the rear tire. The force
on the handlebar (the countersteering force) is continued until
you
are ready to straigten up and
come out of the turn. Then the push is relaxed and the bike
corrects
itself - comes back to the
vertical.

Sliding at speed is *not* the way to turn corners.


I get it but how can you counter steer "through a corner"? None
of the
bikes in my link have the bars turned away from the radius... The
only
bikes I know that "counter steer" though a corner are these
types of
bikes that run on ice and dirt. If you skip to the 1:05 minute
mark and
watch this corner, you will see motorcycles counter steering
"through" a
corner. As we determined earlier. The front wheel is turned
"away" from
the radius of the turn, and the rear tire is sliding in a radius
outside
the radius of the front tire...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqUnhTpbtSM



... as opposed to these guys who are clearly *not* counter
steering
"through" a corner... as very clear if you skip to the 2 minute
mark
and
watch the yellow bike on the right of the frame... It's front
tire is
turned into the radius, and the rear tire is not sliding
sideways, but
tracking forward in the direction of the turn, ideally slightly
inside
the radius of the front tire... this bike is "steering" not
counter
steering... as in the video of the flat trackers above...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjSXehuADx4


Period...

You're right. I made all that **** up.


No John, you are just not letting your emotion and ego, look at the
pictures, and listen to the words. You said "through" the corner, I
showed you two distinct versions, one steering, one counter
steering
Take a breath and go look at 1:05 into the first vid, and 2:01 in
the
second.... Pause them and just frekin' look......


Friendly suggestion. You might want to hold off on your
condemnations
until you read and think about this a little more.



Dick, it's pretty simple. You were talking about starting a turn,
and we
miscommunicated but we are both on the same page there.... John said
something totally different, said they are countersteering "through"
that's THROUGH the corner, which is what I was saying was
incorrect....

Yup. Start and through. Once you let up, you straighten up.

Amen.



I think maybe I know why Scott thinks counter-steering is not required
*through* the turn. In his world of dirt bike racing they often
"slide" through a turn,


and there are times when we don't... Either way, you can both steer, and
counter steer with the back end sliding. The difference is when the rear
end moves to the outside of the center line of the front forks (front
tire).. I showed two examples earlier. One gp bike steering through a
corner, one an flat tracker, counter steering through...

I will ask you one question I asked John. Show me which of these bikes
is "counter-steering" and don't say all of them. Pick one, post the link
to the picture and explain how the specific bike in that picture is
counter-steering even though the front tire in all of those bikes are
turned *into* the radius in comparison to the centerline of the bike...

https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch




Cause I don't see any of the bikes above with the front tire turned away
from the radius...





I'll answer your question but this will be the last comment I have on
this thread.

It's not possible to detect the amount of counter-steering applied by
looking at a picture. It's only enough to keep the bike following the
curve (which isn't much). You're not going to see an exaggerated fork
or wheel turn.

When following a car, that is making a turn at relatively high speed ...
like following the curve of an entrance to a major divided highway...
have you ever noticed how *very* slightly the front wheels are turned to
stay on the curve? Now, this has nothing to do with counter-steering
on a bike but it illustrates how little a wheel/tire has to turn to make
a turn at speed.

The riders in your pics ... the ones who are taking a curve but are not
"sliding" (meaning the rear wheel is still in line with the front) are
*all* counter-steering to make that turn. You are looking for some
extreme representation of it that can be seen on the front wheel or
handlebars. It's not like that.




Then the whole day was wasted comparing apples to oranges.. John said it
was when the front tire was turned away from the radius....


It *is*. Very, very slightly and really not perceptible in a photo.