On 2/7/2014 10:48 PM, Califbill wrote:
KC wrote:
On 2/7/2014 2:49 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/7/2014 12:39 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Fri, 07 Feb 2014 11:19:50 -0600, Califbill
wrote:

Poco Loco wrote:
On Fri, 07 Feb 2014 10:59:47 -0500, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 2/7/14, 10:50 AM, Tim wrote:
On Friday, February 7, 2014 9:46:00 AM UTC-6, F.O.A.D. wrote:

Yeah, what we have created in this country is a growth industry
for the

privatization of penal institutions. The corporations pressure the

legislators to pass more laws and stiffer sentences so more
people can

be imprisoned for longer periods of time and so the private slams
will

be guaranteed more income. It's a wonderful system and requires a
lot

less brainpower than something that might actually work.



What would you do to handle the drug problem?



I don't claim to have *the* solution, but I do know that creating a
growth industry in prisons for the private sector ain't it. I think
decriminalizing simple possession for personal use would be a good
starting point, though.

I suppose that's for all the drugs up through heroin? I suppose you
disagree with the idea of
marijuana being a stepping stone to the 'better' stuff. So where
would you draw the line?

Heroin is actually not a really bad 'hard' drug. Lots of heroin addicts
were functioning members of society. Lots turned to crime because of
the
costs to procure, but heroin may kill you in the end because of
paranoia.
Ray Charles was a heroin addict for years. Lots of other examples.
There
are drugs too nasty to legalize, but the country will not come to an end
with most drugs available. Alcohol probably causes more deaths than
hard
drugs. Including the drug wars for sales territory. You have a
friend, I
think it was you, who is hooked on OxyContin. Is he still a functioning
member of society? What the hell is accomplished by sending someone to
prison for use? Puts their family in the welfare system, costs to
incarcerate, and ruins any prospect for a decent job later. If they
commit
a crime to pay for the drugs, then jail them. But if costs are low
enough,
they will work and pay for the drug, just like alcohol. This was
supposed
to be a free country. We are being controlled more, and observed
more than
a lot of western countries these days. And it is both major parties
responsible, not just one side or the other.

I'm no expert on drugs, and don't have an oxycontin hooked friend,
that I know of. I suppose the
cost of incarceration are more than the costs for emergency OD care,
so stopping the incarceration
may be a good idea. It's obviously not much of a deterrent.


I have a good friend who's daughter got hooked on oxycontin and then
went to heroin because it's cheaper. I have a niece who has followed
the same path. Both started as teenagers in high school. Both have
been through rehab, one twice, the other three times. Both have stolen
money, jewelry and other items from their parents, grandparents, other
relatives and former friends to fund their addictions. Failed
marriages, abortions, and heartbreak for the parents. My 61 year old
sister-in-law (mother of the niece) is now in therapy and is taking
anti-anxiety pills because she's coming apart emotionally due to her
daughter's lifestyle.

Anyone who tells me heroin is "not a really bad hard drug" has a lot of
convincing to do to me.



We are on the same page with that....

It is a bad drug, but an addict can still function. You already admit they
can not kick the habit, so let them get a drug that will let them function,
until they die. Sounds cruel, but why is it the rest of society's job to
take care of them? We have spent trillions on the war on drugs. We lost
the war. Let the wounded die.


I'll go suggest that to my sister-in-law. I am sure it will bring her
some solace and peace of mind.

Do you have any kids?

"Mr. Luddite" wrote:
On 2/7/2014 10:48 PM, Califbill wrote:
KC wrote:
On 2/7/2014 2:49 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/7/2014 12:39 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Fri, 07 Feb 2014 11:19:50 -0600, Califbill
wrote:

Poco Loco wrote:
On Fri, 07 Feb 2014 10:59:47 -0500, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 2/7/14, 10:50 AM, Tim wrote:
On Friday, February 7, 2014 9:46:00 AM UTC-6, F.O.A.D. wrote:

Yeah, what we have created in this country is a growth industry
for the

privatization of penal institutions. The corporations pressure the

legislators to pass more laws and stiffer sentences so more
people can

be imprisoned for longer periods of time and so the private slams
will

be guaranteed more income. It's a wonderful system and requires a
lot

less brainpower than something that might actually work.



What would you do to handle the drug problem?



I don't claim to have *the* solution, but I do know that creating a
growth industry in prisons for the private sector ain't it. I think
decriminalizing simple possession for personal use would be a good
starting point, though.

I suppose that's for all the drugs up through heroin? I suppose you
disagree with the idea of
marijuana being a stepping stone to the 'better' stuff. So where
would you draw the line?

Heroin is actually not a really bad 'hard' drug. Lots of heroin addicts
were functioning members of society. Lots turned to crime because of
the
costs to procure, but heroin may kill you in the end because of
paranoia.
Ray Charles was a heroin addict for years. Lots of other examples.
There
are drugs too nasty to legalize, but the country will not come to an end
with most drugs available. Alcohol probably causes more deaths than
hard
drugs. Including the drug wars for sales territory. You have a
friend, I
think it was you, who is hooked on OxyContin. Is he still a functioning
member of society? What the hell is accomplished by sending someone to
prison for use? Puts their family in the welfare system, costs to
incarcerate, and ruins any prospect for a decent job later. If they
commit
a crime to pay for the drugs, then jail them. But if costs are low
enough,
they will work and pay for the drug, just like alcohol. This was
supposed
to be a free country. We are being controlled more, and observed
more than
a lot of western countries these days. And it is both major parties
responsible, not just one side or the other.

I'm no expert on drugs, and don't have an oxycontin hooked friend,
that I know of. I suppose the
cost of incarceration are more than the costs for emergency OD care,
so stopping the incarceration
may be a good idea. It's obviously not much of a deterrent.


I have a good friend who's daughter got hooked on oxycontin and then
went to heroin because it's cheaper. I have a niece who has followed
the same path. Both started as teenagers in high school. Both have
been through rehab, one twice, the other three times. Both have stolen
money, jewelry and other items from their parents, grandparents, other
relatives and former friends to fund their addictions. Failed
marriages, abortions, and heartbreak for the parents. My 61 year old
sister-in-law (mother of the niece) is now in therapy and is taking
anti-anxiety pills because she's coming apart emotionally due to her
daughter's lifestyle.

Anyone who tells me heroin is "not a really bad hard drug" has a lot of
convincing to do to me.



We are on the same page with that....

It is a bad drug, but an addict can still function. You already admit they
can not kick the habit, so let them get a drug that will let them function,
until they die. Sounds cruel, but why is it the rest of society's job to
take care of them? We have spent trillions on the war on drugs. We lost
the war. Let the wounded die.


I'll go suggest that to my sister-in-law. I am sure it will bring her
some solace and peace of mind.

Do you have any kids?

I have 2 daughters and 3 grandaughters. I would help them try to overcome
addiction. Just as you would your kids. But is it society's place to
rescue someone from bad lifestyle choice?

On 2/8/2014 2:48 PM, Califbill wrote:

"Mr. Luddite" wrote:


Do you have any kids?

I have 2 daughters and 3 grandaughters. I would help them try to overcome
addiction. Just as you would your kids. But is it society's place to
rescue someone from bad lifestyle choice?

Here's the problem with heroin:

The success rate of detox and rehabilitation programs for heroin addicts
is very low. Only about 15 percent stay clean long term. You would
likely bankrupt yourself trying to get one of your daughters or
grandaughters off it (hypothetical of course) and still not succeed.
Would you be willing to just accept one (or more) of them dying while
living in a cardboard box somewhere because of their chosen "lifestyle"?

I doubt it. But your chances of success are still very low.

Another problem is once addicted, a user who is able to stay off it for
a while and then has a relapse can die from the next "fix". It's a
hideous drug form and is highly addictive. One in four people who try
it once will become permanently addicted *for life* (however long that
is).

The need for the drug causes bankruptcy and homelessness in many cases.
Your comment that heroin addicts can lead a relatively normal and
productive life is simply not true. It's a downward spiral, often
taking many others along for the ride and costing society huge $$.

No, legalizing it isn't the answer.

"Mr. Luddite" wrote:
On 2/8/2014 2:48 PM, Califbill wrote:

"Mr. Luddite" wrote:


Do you have any kids?

I have 2 daughters and 3 grandaughters. I would help them try to overcome
addiction. Just as you would your kids. But is it society's place to
rescue someone from bad lifestyle choice?

Here's the problem with heroin:

The success rate of detox and rehabilitation programs for heroin addicts
is very low. Only about 15 percent stay clean long term. You would
likely bankrupt yourself trying to get one of your daughters or
grandaughters off it (hypothetical of course) and still not succeed.
Would you be willing to just accept one (or more) of them dying while
living in a cardboard box somewhere because of their chosen "lifestyle"?

I doubt it. But your chances of success are still very low.

Another problem is once addicted, a user who is able to stay off it for a
while and then has a relapse can die from the next "fix". It's a hideous
drug form and is highly addictive. One in four people who try it once
will become permanently addicted *for life* (however long that is).

The need for the drug causes bankruptcy and homelessness in many cases.
Your comment that heroin addicts can lead a relatively normal and
productive life is simply not true. It's a downward spiral, often taking
many others along for the ride and costing society huge $$.

No, legalizing it isn't the answer.

How much better off is my child with all of society paying the tab? Will
she recover? Odds better? If we take most of the profit motive out of
heroin and other drugs, how likely will we have a greater addiction rate
without pushers?

On 2/8/2014 7:57 PM, Califbill wrote:
"Mr. Luddite" wrote:
On 2/8/2014 2:48 PM, Califbill wrote:

"Mr. Luddite" wrote:


Do you have any kids?

I have 2 daughters and 3 grandaughters. I would help them try to overcome
addiction. Just as you would your kids. But is it society's place to
rescue someone from bad lifestyle choice?

Here's the problem with heroin:

The success rate of detox and rehabilitation programs for heroin addicts
is very low. Only about 15 percent stay clean long term. You would
likely bankrupt yourself trying to get one of your daughters or
grandaughters off it (hypothetical of course) and still not succeed.
Would you be willing to just accept one (or more) of them dying while
living in a cardboard box somewhere because of their chosen "lifestyle"?

I doubt it. But your chances of success are still very low.

Another problem is once addicted, a user who is able to stay off it for a
while and then has a relapse can die from the next "fix". It's a hideous
drug form and is highly addictive. One in four people who try it once
will become permanently addicted *for life* (however long that is).

The need for the drug causes bankruptcy and homelessness in many cases.
Your comment that heroin addicts can lead a relatively normal and
productive life is simply not true. It's a downward spiral, often taking
many others along for the ride and costing society huge $$.

No, legalizing it isn't the answer.

How much better off is my child with all of society paying the tab? Will
she recover? Odds better? If we take most of the profit motive out of
heroin and other drugs, how likely will we have a greater addiction rate
without pushers?



Again, legalize it and one in four people who try it once
will become permanently addicted *for life*. Is that smart?