I wouldn't get...
 

....into one again without a parachute and a few stiff drinks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAYrcu5_Pko#t=50

I wouldn't get...
 

Speaking about helicopters...I wonder if Capt Tom Frances ever got his license.
Not sure if he bought one of those little models with the tall rotor tower.

I wouldn't get...
 

On Fri, 24 Jan 2014 04:55:58 -0800 (PST), True North wrote:

Speaking about helicopters...I wonder if Capt Tom Frances ever got his license.
Not sure if he bought one of those little models with the tall rotor tower.

He should! This one's a blast. But, the dogs don't like it at all. If it ever warms up, I'll try it
outside. But, I've heard stories of the things being attacked by birds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXllux3iXgI

The guy in the video is a much better pilot than I am. I'd have crashed it three or four times in
that amount of time. I'm surprised mine hasn't broken yet.

I wouldn't get...
 

On Fri, 24 Jan 2014 06:40:32 -0500, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

...into one again without a parachute and a few stiff drinks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAYrcu5_Pko#t=50

Funny.

I wouldn't get...
 

On 1/24/2014 9:24 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jan 2014 04:55:58 -0800 (PST), True North wrote:

Speaking about helicopters...I wonder if Capt Tom Frances ever got his license.
Not sure if he bought one of those little models with the tall rotor tower.

He should! This one's a blast. But, the dogs don't like it at all. If it ever warms up, I'll try it
outside. But, I've heard stories of the things being attacked by birds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXllux3iXgI

The guy in the video is a much better pilot than I am. I'd have crashed it three or four times in
that amount of time. I'm surprised mine hasn't broken yet.


Same here. Mine is a Syma clone but it does have a built in hd camera
too. I have only been able to run it indoors, so far it's pretty tough...

I wouldn't get...
 

On 1/24/2014 7:55 AM, True North wrote:
Speaking about helicopters...I wonder if Capt Tom Frances ever got his license.
Not sure if he bought one of those little models with the tall rotor tower.

Captain Tom sold off his little things. You bought one of them, remember?

I wouldn't get...
 

On 1/24/2014 9:24 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jan 2014 04:55:58 -0800 (PST), True North wrote:

Speaking about helicopters...I wonder if Capt Tom Frances ever got his license.
Not sure if he bought one of those little models with the tall rotor tower.

He should! This one's a blast. But, the dogs don't like it at all. If it ever warms up, I'll try it
outside. But, I've heard stories of the things being attacked by birds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXllux3iXgI

The guy in the video is a much better pilot than I am. I'd have crashed it three or four times in
that amount of time. I'm surprised mine hasn't broken yet.

I have 2 v911 single rotor 4 channels, and a larger 3 channel 2 rotor
job. I can't fly any of them worth a damn. My UDI U818a should be here
any day now. That one should be easier to fly indoors and out.

I wouldn't get...
 

On 1/24/2014 9:29 AM, KC wrote:
On 1/24/2014 9:24 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jan 2014 04:55:58 -0800 (PST), True North
wrote:

Speaking about helicopters...I wonder if Capt Tom Frances ever got
his license.
Not sure if he bought one of those little models with the tall rotor
tower.

He should! This one's a blast. But, the dogs don't like it at all. If
it ever warms up, I'll try it
outside. But, I've heard stories of the things being attacked by birds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXllux3iXgI

The guy in the video is a much better pilot than I am. I'd have
crashed it three or four times in
that amount of time. I'm surprised mine hasn't broken yet.


Same here. Mine is a Syma clone but it does have a built in hd camera
too. I have only been able to run it indoors, so far it's pretty tough...

The quad I have on order has a camera in that 1992 era Apple AVI format.
I hope I can find a codac that can read that old format.

I wouldn't get...
 

On Fri, 24 Jan 2014 10:25:27 -0500, Hank wrote:

On 1/24/2014 9:24 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jan 2014 04:55:58 -0800 (PST), True North wrote:

Speaking about helicopters...I wonder if Capt Tom Frances ever got his license.
Not sure if he bought one of those little models with the tall rotor tower.

He should! This one's a blast. But, the dogs don't like it at all. If it ever warms up, I'll try it
outside. But, I've heard stories of the things being attacked by birds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXllux3iXgI

The guy in the video is a much better pilot than I am. I'd have crashed it three or four times in
that amount of time. I'm surprised mine hasn't broken yet.

I have 2 v911 single rotor 4 channels, and a larger 3 channel 2 rotor
job. I can't fly any of them worth a damn. My UDI U818a should be here
any day now. That one should be easier to fly indoors and out.

From where do you buy your models? Do you have a favorite hobby shop? That v011 is very similar to
the one I've got. I'm more into the idea of RC airplanes, which I've never flown, than helicopters.
But, if I had a nudist beach right next door, I might could go for the UDI U818a with the camera.

I haven't even reached the novice level with this electric RC stuff.

I wouldn't get...
 

On 1/24/2014 10:37 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jan 2014 10:25:27 -0500, Hank wrote:

On 1/24/2014 9:24 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jan 2014 04:55:58 -0800 (PST), True North wrote:

Speaking about helicopters...I wonder if Capt Tom Frances ever got his license.
Not sure if he bought one of those little models with the tall rotor tower.

He should! This one's a blast. But, the dogs don't like it at all. If it ever warms up, I'll try it
outside. But, I've heard stories of the things being attacked by birds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXllux3iXgI

The guy in the video is a much better pilot than I am. I'd have crashed it three or four times in
that amount of time. I'm surprised mine hasn't broken yet.

I have 2 v911 single rotor 4 channels, and a larger 3 channel 2 rotor
job. I can't fly any of them worth a damn. My UDI U818a should be here
any day now. That one should be easier to fly indoors and out.

From where do you buy your models? Do you have a favorite hobby shop? That v011 is very similar to
the one I've got. I'm more into the idea of RC airplanes, which I've never flown, than helicopters.
But, if I had a nudist beach right next door, I might could go for the UDI U818a with the camera.

I haven't even reached the novice level with this electric RC stuff.

Amazon usually has good prices. It pays to check around though.
You can use it to inspect your gutters too.

I wouldn't get...
 

On Friday, 24 January 2014 11:15:59 UTC-4, Hank wrote:
On 1/24/2014 7:55 AM, True North wrote:

Speaking about helicopters...I wonder if Capt Tom Frances ever got his license.

Not sure if he bought one of those little models with the tall rotor tower.



Captain Tom sold off his little things. You bought one of them, remember?

He was getting into helicopters long after he sold me the Princecraft Yukon.
Probably just before he left for the Carolinas.

I wouldn't get...
 

Hank wrote:
On 1/24/2014 9:24 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jan 2014 04:55:58 -0800 (PST), True North wrote:

Speaking about helicopters...I wonder if Capt Tom Frances ever got his license.
Not sure if he bought one of those little models with the tall rotor tower.

He should! This one's a blast. But, the dogs don't like it at all. If it
ever warms up, I'll try it
outside. But, I've heard stories of the things being attacked by birds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXllux3iXgI

The guy in the video is a much better pilot than I am. I'd have crashed
it three or four times in
that amount of time. I'm surprised mine hasn't broken yet.

I have 2 v911 single rotor 4 channels, and a larger 3 channel 2 rotor
job. I can't fly any of them worth a damn. My UDI U818a should be here
any day now. That one should be easier to fly indoors and out.

My new one is in shipment. Had to buy a new horn for the boat and
replacement trailer receptacle for the truck. For an extra less than $21
with an extra charger got a Syma S107 tossed in to the Amazon order.

I wouldn't get...
 

Poco Loco wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jan 2014 04:55:58 -0800 (PST), True North wrote:

Speaking about helicopters...I wonder if Capt Tom Frances ever got his license.
Not sure if he bought one of those little models with the tall rotor tower.

He should! This one's a blast. But, the dogs don't like it at all. If it
ever warms up, I'll try it
outside. But, I've heard stories of the things being attacked by birds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXllux3iXgI

The guy in the video is a much better pilot than I am. I'd have crashed
it three or four times in
that amount of time. I'm surprised mine hasn't broken yet.

Tom was looking at a Robinson R22 I think. Not an electric toy.

I wouldn't get...
 

On 1/24/2014 7:55 PM, Califbill wrote:
Poco Loco wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jan 2014 04:55:58 -0800 (PST), True North wrote:

Speaking about helicopters...I wonder if Capt Tom Frances ever got his license.
Not sure if he bought one of those little models with the tall rotor tower.

He should! This one's a blast. But, the dogs don't like it at all. If it
ever warms up, I'll try it
outside. But, I've heard stories of the things being attacked by birds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXllux3iXgI

The guy in the video is a much better pilot than I am. I'd have crashed
it three or four times in
that amount of time. I'm surprised mine hasn't broken yet.

Tom was looking at a Robinson R22 I think. Not an electric toy.


Yes, he isn't gonna' sit in no Syma 107:)

I wouldn't get...
 

On 1/24/2014 9:01 PM, KC wrote:
On 1/24/2014 7:55 PM, Califbill wrote:
Poco Loco wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jan 2014 04:55:58 -0800 (PST), True North
wrote:

Speaking about helicopters...I wonder if Capt Tom Frances ever got
his license.
Not sure if he bought one of those little models with the tall rotor
tower.

He should! This one's a blast. But, the dogs don't like it at all. If it
ever warms up, I'll try it
outside. But, I've heard stories of the things being attacked by birds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXllux3iXgI

The guy in the video is a much better pilot than I am. I'd have crashed
it three or four times in
that amount of time. I'm surprised mine hasn't broken yet.

Tom was looking at a Robinson R22 I think. Not an electric toy.


Yes, he isn't gonna' sit in no Syma 107:)


I flew a few times with a guy in Florida who had an R-22 until I found
out he was still a student pilot and had not received his full ticket
yet. Another guy in the community we lived in had the bigger, Robinson
R-44 (four seater). He was ex-military and one hell of a chopper pilot.
I took a couple of lessons with him but really didn't like helicopters.
At the time my fixed wing ticket was still valid and I much preferred
flying a Cessna 172.

I wouldn't get...
 

On Fri, 24 Jan 2014 21:12:40 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

I flew a few times with a guy in Florida who had an R-22 until I found
out he was still a student pilot and had not received his full ticket
yet. Another guy in the community we lived in had the bigger, Robinson
R-44 (four seater). He was ex-military and one hell of a chopper pilot.
I took a couple of lessons with him but really didn't like helicopters.
At the time my fixed wing ticket was still valid and I much preferred
flying a Cessna 172.

===

I'd be interested in knowing why you didn't like helicopters. Didn't
know about the R-22 until a few minutes ago and thought it looked
pretty cool. Would it be safe to fly one to the Bahamas?

I wouldn't get...
 

On 1/24/2014 10:52 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jan 2014 21:12:40 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

I flew a few times with a guy in Florida who had an R-22 until I found
out he was still a student pilot and had not received his full ticket
yet. Another guy in the community we lived in had the bigger, Robinson
R-44 (four seater). He was ex-military and one hell of a chopper pilot.
I took a couple of lessons with him but really didn't like helicopters.
At the time my fixed wing ticket was still valid and I much preferred
flying a Cessna 172.

===

I'd be interested in knowing why you didn't like helicopters. Didn't
know about the R-22 until a few minutes ago and thought it looked
pretty cool. Would it be safe to fly one to the Bahamas?


When I took some instruction in helicopters I was still a fairly new
fixed wing pilot, having received my ticket in 1998. I didn't have a
lot of hours in fixed wing (still don't) and the helicopters were
totally different animals to me. Furthermore, I don't think I was ever
a "natural" pilot if there is such a thing. My flight instructors
always commented that technical types (engineers) like me were often
difficult to teach because we tend to analyze everything too much,
flying "by the book". A helicopter is much more fussy about pilot
inputs and I think requires more of a "natural" feel for the aircraft,
IMO. Plus, I remember the R-22 had very touchy controls, even when
compared to the R-44 which I also flew a few times.

As far as flying to the Bahamas, I wouldn't try it in a R-22 although
maybe some people do. I don't know enough about it. Even in fixed wing
aircraft I rarely flew over water for long because I always wanted the
option of an emergency landing spot somewhere. I know the R-22 doesn't
carry a lot of fuel and I think it's range is about 220 miles or
something like that. It could probably "make it" in good weather but
without much fuel in reserve. Depends on the load it's carrying also.
When I was flying with the guy in Florida the two of us in the R-22 were
technically overloaded but it performed fine.

I think the key words in your question was "Would it be safe ....?"
I never really felt safe with my hands on the bar and feet on the pedals
in a helicopter. :-)

I also took a couple of flight lessons in a different type of helicopter
up here in MA to see if I got more comfortable with it. I didn't. It's
hard for some who learned to fly fixed wing to make the transition to
helicopters.

For me, learning to fly had been a lifelong dream and goal but once
accomplished I realized that I felt much more at home and safer on a boat.

I wouldn't get...
 

On 1/25/14, 4:47 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 1/24/2014 10:52 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jan 2014 21:12:40 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

I flew a few times with a guy in Florida who had an R-22 until I found
out he was still a student pilot and had not received his full ticket
yet. Another guy in the community we lived in had the bigger, Robinson
R-44 (four seater). He was ex-military and one hell of a chopper pilot.
I took a couple of lessons with him but really didn't like helicopters.
At the time my fixed wing ticket was still valid and I much preferred
flying a Cessna 172.

===

I'd be interested in knowing why you didn't like helicopters. Didn't
know about the R-22 until a few minutes ago and thought it looked
pretty cool. Would it be safe to fly one to the Bahamas?


When I took some instruction in helicopters I was still a fairly new
fixed wing pilot, having received my ticket in 1998. I didn't have a
lot of hours in fixed wing (still don't) and the helicopters were
totally different animals to me. Furthermore, I don't think I was ever
a "natural" pilot if there is such a thing. My flight instructors
always commented that technical types (engineers) like me were often
difficult to teach because we tend to analyze everything too much,
flying "by the book". A helicopter is much more fussy about pilot
inputs and I think requires more of a "natural" feel for the aircraft,
IMO. Plus, I remember the R-22 had very touchy controls, even when
compared to the R-44 which I also flew a few times.

As far as flying to the Bahamas, I wouldn't try it in a R-22 although
maybe some people do. I don't know enough about it. Even in fixed wing
aircraft I rarely flew over water for long because I always wanted the
option of an emergency landing spot somewhere. I know the R-22 doesn't
carry a lot of fuel and I think it's range is about 220 miles or
something like that. It could probably "make it" in good weather but
without much fuel in reserve. Depends on the load it's carrying also.
When I was flying with the guy in Florida the two of us in the R-22 were
technically overloaded but it performed fine.

I think the key words in your question was "Would it be safe ....?"
I never really felt safe with my hands on the bar and feet on the pedals
in a helicopter. :-)

I also took a couple of flight lessons in a different type of helicopter
up here in MA to see if I got more comfortable with it. I didn't. It's
hard for some who learned to fly fixed wing to make the transition to
helicopters.

For me, learning to fly had been a lifelong dream and goal but once
accomplished I realized that I felt much more at home and safer on a boat.


I was on a helicopter that "went down" hard in West Virginia. Some sort
of oil or hydraulic failure. No one was injured, and the copter was
hauled away on a flatbed. That was enough helicoptering for me.

I took a few flying lessons when I lived in Michigan. Then a friend and
political colleague who was an experienced pilot died when his plane
crashed. Then my political mentor and friend Walter Reuther died when
the Learjet he was in crashed. Then in DC, a printer who was a friend of
mine died when his plane crashed.

Oh, and when I worked for the NEA, I was on a commercial plane heading
for a landing near Harrisburg, PA. The weather was awful and suddenly
out the window we saw tall smokestacks at wing level right next to us.
The pilot took the plane as near vertical as he could and the flight
attendent, as she tumbled towards the back of the plane, muttered,
"we're going to die."

I dislike flying. :) I do it when I have to, but I am a lousy passenger.

I wouldn't get...
 

On 1/25/2014 7:22 AM, F.O.A.D. wrote:

On 1/25/14, 4:47 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 1/24/2014 10:52 PM, Wayne.B wrote:


I'd be interested in knowing why you didn't like helicopters. Didn't
know about the R-22 until a few minutes ago and thought it looked
pretty cool. Would it be safe to fly one to the Bahamas?




For me, learning to fly had been a lifelong dream and goal but once
accomplished I realized that I felt much more at home and safer on a
boat.


I was on a helicopter that "went down" hard in West Virginia. Some sort
of oil or hydraulic failure. No one was injured, and the copter was
hauled away on a flatbed. That was enough helicoptering for me.

I took a few flying lessons when I lived in Michigan. Then a friend and
political colleague who was an experienced pilot died when his plane
crashed. Then my political mentor and friend Walter Reuther died when
the Learjet he was in crashed. Then in DC, a printer who was a friend of
mine died when his plane crashed.

Oh, and when I worked for the NEA, I was on a commercial plane heading
for a landing near Harrisburg, PA. The weather was awful and suddenly
out the window we saw tall smokestacks at wing level right next to us.
The pilot took the plane as near vertical as he could and the flight
attendent, as she tumbled towards the back of the plane, muttered,
"we're going to die."

I dislike flying. :) I do it when I have to, but I am a lousy passenger.



I also dislike flying for many reasons. I did a lot during my working
career of course but as soon as it was no longer necessary, I stopped.
The last time I took a commercial flight was nearly 12 years ago.

Like many our age, I witnessed the glory days of aviation as a youngster
and thought being a pilot was about as cool of a job one could ever have.

I wonder how many people realize what the role of a modern commercial
pilot is. He or she is really a "cockpit manager" supervising a
prescribed list of operations that are mostly automatically controlled.
Those with the "seat of the pants" flying skills and experience like
"Sully" Sullenberger who landed on the Hudson River after a bird strike
are becoming the minority.

The main thing that turned me off to commercial flying was some
knowledge I gained of the industry while working. For example, the
engines in jets and prop driven aircraft are routinely rebuilt after so
many hours. It used to be that the engine manufacturer (GE, Pratt &
Whitney, etc.) did the rebuilding and testing. Not so much anymore.
Airlines farm out the rebuilding to third party companies who, although
governed by FAA and manufacturer's specs and requirements, get the
contracts by submitting the lowest bid.

That all said though, I acknowledge that for the number of daily
flights, miles flown and passengers carried, flying has an excellent
safety record. My problem is that I am listening to every sound, clunk
and hydraulic whir when strapped in the seat. :-)

I wouldn't get...
 

On Fri, 24 Jan 2014 18:55:43 -0600, Califbill wrote:

Hank wrote:
On 1/24/2014 9:24 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jan 2014 04:55:58 -0800 (PST), True North wrote:

Speaking about helicopters...I wonder if Capt Tom Frances ever got his license.
Not sure if he bought one of those little models with the tall rotor tower.

He should! This one's a blast. But, the dogs don't like it at all. If it
ever warms up, I'll try it
outside. But, I've heard stories of the things being attacked by birds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXllux3iXgI

The guy in the video is a much better pilot than I am. I'd have crashed
it three or four times in
that amount of time. I'm surprised mine hasn't broken yet.

I have 2 v911 single rotor 4 channels, and a larger 3 channel 2 rotor
job. I can't fly any of them worth a damn. My UDI U818a should be here
any day now. That one should be easier to fly indoors and out.

My new one is in shipment. Had to buy a new horn for the boat and
replacement trailer receptacle for the truck. For an extra less than $21
with an extra charger got a Syma S107 tossed in to the Amazon order.

Cool. The 'c' has a camera, I take it.

I wouldn't get...
 

On 1/25/14, 8:40 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 1/25/2014 7:22 AM, F.O.A.D. wrote:

On 1/25/14, 4:47 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 1/24/2014 10:52 PM, Wayne.B wrote:


I'd be interested in knowing why you didn't like helicopters. Didn't
know about the R-22 until a few minutes ago and thought it looked
pretty cool. Would it be safe to fly one to the Bahamas?




For me, learning to fly had been a lifelong dream and goal but once
accomplished I realized that I felt much more at home and safer on a
boat.


I was on a helicopter that "went down" hard in West Virginia. Some sort
of oil or hydraulic failure. No one was injured, and the copter was
hauled away on a flatbed. That was enough helicoptering for me.

I took a few flying lessons when I lived in Michigan. Then a friend and
political colleague who was an experienced pilot died when his plane
crashed. Then my political mentor and friend Walter Reuther died when
the Learjet he was in crashed. Then in DC, a printer who was a friend of
mine died when his plane crashed.

Oh, and when I worked for the NEA, I was on a commercial plane heading
for a landing near Harrisburg, PA. The weather was awful and suddenly
out the window we saw tall smokestacks at wing level right next to us.
The pilot took the plane as near vertical as he could and the flight
attendent, as she tumbled towards the back of the plane, muttered,
"we're going to die."

I dislike flying. :) I do it when I have to, but I am a lousy
passenger.



I also dislike flying for many reasons. I did a lot during my working
career of course but as soon as it was no longer necessary, I stopped.
The last time I took a commercial flight was nearly 12 years ago.

Like many our age, I witnessed the glory days of aviation as a youngster
and thought being a pilot was about as cool of a job one could ever have.

I wonder how many people realize what the role of a modern commercial
pilot is. He or she is really a "cockpit manager" supervising a
prescribed list of operations that are mostly automatically controlled.
Those with the "seat of the pants" flying skills and experience like
"Sully" Sullenberger who landed on the Hudson River after a bird strike
are becoming the minority.

The main thing that turned me off to commercial flying was some
knowledge I gained of the industry while working. For example, the
engines in jets and prop driven aircraft are routinely rebuilt after so
many hours. It used to be that the engine manufacturer (GE, Pratt &
Whitney, etc.) did the rebuilding and testing. Not so much anymore.
Airlines farm out the rebuilding to third party companies who, although
governed by FAA and manufacturer's specs and requirements, get the
contracts by submitting the lowest bid.

That all said though, I acknowledge that for the number of daily
flights, miles flown and passengers carried, flying has an excellent
safety record. My problem is that I am listening to every sound, clunk
and hydraulic whir when strapped in the seat. :-)





To third party companies in third world countries.

I wouldn't get...
 

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 04:47:27 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 1/24/2014 10:52 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jan 2014 21:12:40 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

I flew a few times with a guy in Florida who had an R-22 until I found
out he was still a student pilot and had not received his full ticket
yet. Another guy in the community we lived in had the bigger, Robinson
R-44 (four seater). He was ex-military and one hell of a chopper pilot.
I took a couple of lessons with him but really didn't like helicopters.
At the time my fixed wing ticket was still valid and I much preferred
flying a Cessna 172.

===

I'd be interested in knowing why you didn't like helicopters. Didn't
know about the R-22 until a few minutes ago and thought it looked
pretty cool. Would it be safe to fly one to the Bahamas?


When I took some instruction in helicopters I was still a fairly new
fixed wing pilot, having received my ticket in 1998. I didn't have a
lot of hours in fixed wing (still don't) and the helicopters were
totally different animals to me. Furthermore, I don't think I was ever
a "natural" pilot if there is such a thing. My flight instructors
always commented that technical types (engineers) like me were often
difficult to teach because we tend to analyze everything too much,
flying "by the book". A helicopter is much more fussy about pilot
inputs and I think requires more of a "natural" feel for the aircraft,
IMO. Plus, I remember the R-22 had very touchy controls, even when
compared to the R-44 which I also flew a few times.

As far as flying to the Bahamas, I wouldn't try it in a R-22 although
maybe some people do. I don't know enough about it. Even in fixed wing
aircraft I rarely flew over water for long because I always wanted the
option of an emergency landing spot somewhere. I know the R-22 doesn't
carry a lot of fuel and I think it's range is about 220 miles or
something like that. It could probably "make it" in good weather but
without much fuel in reserve. Depends on the load it's carrying also.
When I was flying with the guy in Florida the two of us in the R-22 were
technically overloaded but it performed fine.

I think the key words in your question was "Would it be safe ....?"
I never really felt safe with my hands on the bar and feet on the pedals
in a helicopter. :-)

I also took a couple of flight lessons in a different type of helicopter
up here in MA to see if I got more comfortable with it. I didn't. It's
hard for some who learned to fly fixed wing to make the transition to
helicopters.

For me, learning to fly had been a lifelong dream and goal but once
accomplished I realized that I felt much more at home and safer on a boat.

I'm glad I didn't read that before I went to Vietnam!

I wouldn't get...
 

On Saturday, January 25, 2014 8:40:31 AM UTC-5, Mr. Luddite wrote:


The main thing that turned me off to commercial flying was some
knowledge I gained of the industry while working. For example, the
engines in jets and prop driven aircraft are routinely rebuilt after so
many hours. It used to be that the engine manufacturer (GE, Pratt &
Whitney, etc.) did the rebuilding and testing. Not so much anymore.
Airlines farm out the rebuilding to third party companies who, although
governed by FAA and manufacturer's specs and requirements, get the
contracts by submitting the lowest bid.

I got to tour Delta's jet base at Atlanta's Hartsfield airport 20+ years ago. Amazing place. They rebuilt their own airplanes, including the engines.. They had two bunkers where they test ran them after rebuilding. Also had everything else required, even an upholstery shop. Went into a hangar on side of the building where they had seven (!) large jets in various stages of rebuilding in one large room. Oh, and a paint booth, too. Walked through an L-1011 that was stripped of its interior, the wiring and plumbing was amazing.

Don't know if they still do all that stuff themselves. Delta was a first class company back then. Not so sure they are the same now.

I wouldn't get...
 

On 1/25/2014 8:46 AM, Poco Loco wrote:

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 04:47:27 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 1/24/2014 10:52 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jan 2014 21:12:40 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

I flew a few times with a guy in Florida who had an R-22 until I found
out he was still a student pilot and had not received his full ticket
yet. Another guy in the community we lived in had the bigger, Robinson
R-44 (four seater). He was ex-military and one hell of a chopper pilot.
I took a couple of lessons with him but really didn't like helicopters.
At the time my fixed wing ticket was still valid and I much preferred
flying a Cessna 172.

===

I'd be interested in knowing why you didn't like helicopters. Didn't
know about the R-22 until a few minutes ago and thought it looked
pretty cool. Would it be safe to fly one to the Bahamas?


When I took some instruction in helicopters I was still a fairly new
fixed wing pilot, having received my ticket in 1998. I didn't have a
lot of hours in fixed wing (still don't) and the helicopters were
totally different animals to me. Furthermore, I don't think I was ever
a "natural" pilot if there is such a thing. My flight instructors
always commented that technical types (engineers) like me were often
difficult to teach because we tend to analyze everything too much,
flying "by the book". A helicopter is much more fussy about pilot
inputs and I think requires more of a "natural" feel for the aircraft,
IMO. Plus, I remember the R-22 had very touchy controls, even when
compared to the R-44 which I also flew a few times.

As far as flying to the Bahamas, I wouldn't try it in a R-22 although
maybe some people do. I don't know enough about it. Even in fixed wing
aircraft I rarely flew over water for long because I always wanted the
option of an emergency landing spot somewhere. I know the R-22 doesn't
carry a lot of fuel and I think it's range is about 220 miles or
something like that. It could probably "make it" in good weather but
without much fuel in reserve. Depends on the load it's carrying also.
When I was flying with the guy in Florida the two of us in the R-22 were
technically overloaded but it performed fine.

I think the key words in your question was "Would it be safe ....?"
I never really felt safe with my hands on the bar and feet on the pedals
in a helicopter. :-)

I also took a couple of flight lessons in a different type of helicopter
up here in MA to see if I got more comfortable with it. I didn't. It's
hard for some who learned to fly fixed wing to make the transition to
helicopters.

For me, learning to fly had been a lifelong dream and goal but once
accomplished I realized that I felt much more at home and safer on a boat.

I'm glad I didn't read that before I went to Vietnam!


In avionics, "attitude" is the aircraft's three dimensional position
relative to the earth or horizon.

Properly trimmed and setup an aircraft like a Cessna 172 is inherently
very safe and easy to fly. It naturally wants to assume a straight and
level flight attitude. It takes pilot influence to put it into an
unusual attitude. For example, by it's design it's difficult to put it
into a spin. To me that's the big difference I found in fixed wing
aircraft that I flew and helicopters. It took some pilot effort and
influence to induce an unusual attitude in a fixed wing Cessna. In a
helicopter it took constant pilot effort and attention just to
*maintain" normal attitude. At least it did for me.

I wouldn't get...
 

On 1/25/2014 7:22 AM, F.O.A.D. wrote:
Then my political mentor and friend Walter Reuther died when the Learjet
he was in crashed.

Tell us more about your fascinating career in politics.

I wouldn't get...
 

On 1/25/2014 8:40 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
That all said though, I acknowledge that for the number of daily
flights, miles flown and passengers carried, flying has an excellent
safety record. My problem is that I am listening to every sound, clunk
and hydraulic whir when strapped in the seat. :-)


Didn't hear any disconcerting sounds in Frank's bird. I was impressed.

I wouldn't get...
 

On 1/25/2014 9:43 AM, Hank wrote:
On 1/25/2014 8:40 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
That all said though, I acknowledge that for the number of daily
flights, miles flown and passengers carried, flying has an excellent
safety record. My problem is that I am listening to every sound, clunk
and hydraulic whir when strapped in the seat. :-)


Didn't hear any disconcerting sounds in Frank's bird. I was impressed.


That's right. I forgot you flew in it. Problem is, how could you tell?
It's so noisy to begin with and I wouldn't recognize a "disconcerting"
sound if I heard it.

The "other" guy (that I bought the house with the hanger from) had the
R-22. He's the one who took me up two or three times before I found out
he was still a student pilot. His helicopter ended up being grounded by
FAA directive. Some of the R-22s had problems with de-lamination of the
rotors and his was on the list that had not had them replaced. I think
he sold it rather than fix it.

I wouldn't get...
 

On 1/25/2014 8:40 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 1/25/2014 7:22 AM, F.O.A.D. wrote:

On 1/25/14, 4:47 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 1/24/2014 10:52 PM, Wayne.B wrote:


I'd be interested in knowing why you didn't like helicopters. Didn't
know about the R-22 until a few minutes ago and thought it looked
pretty cool. Would it be safe to fly one to the Bahamas?




For me, learning to fly had been a lifelong dream and goal but once
accomplished I realized that I felt much more at home and safer on a
boat.


I was on a helicopter that "went down" hard in West Virginia. Some sort
of oil or hydraulic failure. No one was injured, and the copter was
hauled away on a flatbed. That was enough helicoptering for me.

I took a few flying lessons when I lived in Michigan. Then a friend and
political colleague who was an experienced pilot died when his plane
crashed. Then my political mentor and friend Walter Reuther died when
the Learjet he was in crashed. Then in DC, a printer who was a friend of
mine died when his plane crashed.

Oh, and when I worked for the NEA, I was on a commercial plane heading
for a landing near Harrisburg, PA. The weather was awful and suddenly
out the window we saw tall smokestacks at wing level right next to us.
The pilot took the plane as near vertical as he could and the flight
attendent, as she tumbled towards the back of the plane, muttered,
"we're going to die."

I dislike flying. :) I do it when I have to, but I am a lousy
passenger.



I also dislike flying for many reasons. I did a lot during my working
career of course but as soon as it was no longer necessary, I stopped.
The last time I took a commercial flight was nearly 12 years ago.

Like many our age, I witnessed the glory days of aviation as a youngster
and thought being a pilot was about as cool of a job one could ever have.

I wonder how many people realize what the role of a modern commercial
pilot is. He or she is really a "cockpit manager" supervising a
prescribed list of operations that are mostly automatically controlled.
Those with the "seat of the pants" flying skills and experience like
"Sully" Sullenberger who landed on the Hudson River after a bird strike
are becoming the minority.

The main thing that turned me off to commercial flying was some
knowledge I gained of the industry while working. For example, the
engines in jets and prop driven aircraft are routinely rebuilt after so
many hours. It used to be that the engine manufacturer (GE, Pratt &
Whitney, etc.) did the rebuilding and testing. Not so much anymore.
Airlines farm out the rebuilding to third party companies who, although
governed by FAA and manufacturer's specs and requirements, get the
contracts by submitting the lowest bid.

That all said though, I acknowledge that for the number of daily
flights, miles flown and passengers carried, flying has an excellent
safety record. My problem is that I am listening to every sound, clunk
and hydraulic whir when strapped in the seat. :-)




Ever fly in a Twin Otter or the whirly bird between Newark and Wall
Street with intermediate assents and desents.

I wouldn't get...
 

On 1/25/2014 10:34 AM, Hank wrote:
On 1/25/2014 8:40 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 1/25/2014 7:22 AM, F.O.A.D. wrote:

On 1/25/14, 4:47 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 1/24/2014 10:52 PM, Wayne.B wrote:


I'd be interested in knowing why you didn't like helicopters. Didn't
know about the R-22 until a few minutes ago and thought it looked
pretty cool. Would it be safe to fly one to the Bahamas?




For me, learning to fly had been a lifelong dream and goal but once
accomplished I realized that I felt much more at home and safer on a
boat.


I was on a helicopter that "went down" hard in West Virginia. Some sort
of oil or hydraulic failure. No one was injured, and the copter was
hauled away on a flatbed. That was enough helicoptering for me.

I took a few flying lessons when I lived in Michigan. Then a friend and
political colleague who was an experienced pilot died when his plane
crashed. Then my political mentor and friend Walter Reuther died when
the Learjet he was in crashed. Then in DC, a printer who was a friend of
mine died when his plane crashed.

Oh, and when I worked for the NEA, I was on a commercial plane heading
for a landing near Harrisburg, PA. The weather was awful and suddenly
out the window we saw tall smokestacks at wing level right next to us.
The pilot took the plane as near vertical as he could and the flight
attendent, as she tumbled towards the back of the plane, muttered,
"we're going to die."

I dislike flying. :) I do it when I have to, but I am a lousy
passenger.



I also dislike flying for many reasons. I did a lot during my working
career of course but as soon as it was no longer necessary, I stopped.
The last time I took a commercial flight was nearly 12 years ago.

Like many our age, I witnessed the glory days of aviation as a youngster
and thought being a pilot was about as cool of a job one could ever have.

I wonder how many people realize what the role of a modern commercial
pilot is. He or she is really a "cockpit manager" supervising a
prescribed list of operations that are mostly automatically controlled.
Those with the "seat of the pants" flying skills and experience like
"Sully" Sullenberger who landed on the Hudson River after a bird strike
are becoming the minority.

The main thing that turned me off to commercial flying was some
knowledge I gained of the industry while working. For example, the
engines in jets and prop driven aircraft are routinely rebuilt after so
many hours. It used to be that the engine manufacturer (GE, Pratt &
Whitney, etc.) did the rebuilding and testing. Not so much anymore.
Airlines farm out the rebuilding to third party companies who, although
governed by FAA and manufacturer's specs and requirements, get the
contracts by submitting the lowest bid.

That all said though, I acknowledge that for the number of daily
flights, miles flown and passengers carried, flying has an excellent
safety record. My problem is that I am listening to every sound, clunk
and hydraulic whir when strapped in the seat. :-)




Ever fly in a Twin Otter or the whirly bird between Newark and Wall
Street with intermediate assents and desents.


Nope. And never will.

I wouldn't get...
 

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 09:23:27 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 1/25/2014 8:46 AM, Poco Loco wrote:

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 04:47:27 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 1/24/2014 10:52 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jan 2014 21:12:40 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

I flew a few times with a guy in Florida who had an R-22 until I found
out he was still a student pilot and had not received his full ticket
yet. Another guy in the community we lived in had the bigger, Robinson
R-44 (four seater). He was ex-military and one hell of a chopper pilot.
I took a couple of lessons with him but really didn't like helicopters.
At the time my fixed wing ticket was still valid and I much preferred
flying a Cessna 172.

===

I'd be interested in knowing why you didn't like helicopters. Didn't
know about the R-22 until a few minutes ago and thought it looked
pretty cool. Would it be safe to fly one to the Bahamas?


When I took some instruction in helicopters I was still a fairly new
fixed wing pilot, having received my ticket in 1998. I didn't have a
lot of hours in fixed wing (still don't) and the helicopters were
totally different animals to me. Furthermore, I don't think I was ever
a "natural" pilot if there is such a thing. My flight instructors
always commented that technical types (engineers) like me were often
difficult to teach because we tend to analyze everything too much,
flying "by the book". A helicopter is much more fussy about pilot
inputs and I think requires more of a "natural" feel for the aircraft,
IMO. Plus, I remember the R-22 had very touchy controls, even when
compared to the R-44 which I also flew a few times.

As far as flying to the Bahamas, I wouldn't try it in a R-22 although
maybe some people do. I don't know enough about it. Even in fixed wing
aircraft I rarely flew over water for long because I always wanted the
option of an emergency landing spot somewhere. I know the R-22 doesn't
carry a lot of fuel and I think it's range is about 220 miles or
something like that. It could probably "make it" in good weather but
without much fuel in reserve. Depends on the load it's carrying also.
When I was flying with the guy in Florida the two of us in the R-22 were
technically overloaded but it performed fine.

I think the key words in your question was "Would it be safe ....?"
I never really felt safe with my hands on the bar and feet on the pedals
in a helicopter. :-)

I also took a couple of flight lessons in a different type of helicopter
up here in MA to see if I got more comfortable with it. I didn't. It's
hard for some who learned to fly fixed wing to make the transition to
helicopters.

For me, learning to fly had been a lifelong dream and goal but once
accomplished I realized that I felt much more at home and safer on a boat.

I'm glad I didn't read that before I went to Vietnam!


In avionics, "attitude" is the aircraft's three dimensional position
relative to the earth or horizon.

Properly trimmed and setup an aircraft like a Cessna 172 is inherently
very safe and easy to fly. It naturally wants to assume a straight and
level flight attitude. It takes pilot influence to put it into an
unusual attitude. For example, by it's design it's difficult to put it
into a spin. To me that's the big difference I found in fixed wing
aircraft that I flew and helicopters. It took some pilot effort and
influence to induce an unusual attitude in a fixed wing Cessna. In a
helicopter it took constant pilot effort and attention just to
*maintain" normal attitude. At least it did for me.


Hell, there's a big difference in flying model helicopters and model fixed wings. I think the fixed
wings would be much easier. Luckily this little thing I've got seems fairly indestructible. It's
bounced off ceilings, light fixtures, walls, floors, chairs, etc, but still flies.

This is the model I'm considering. Looks quite like the Cessna 172. It also has the 'SAFE'
technology for an amateur like me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLXuKJesAHLN9sevzQ1naPPO4Ly9FdJj6w&v=tH _fds9EJqY&feature=player_detailpage

I wouldn't get...
 

On 1/25/2014 10:39 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 09:23:27 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 1/25/2014 8:46 AM, Poco Loco wrote:

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 04:47:27 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 1/24/2014 10:52 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jan 2014 21:12:40 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

I flew a few times with a guy in Florida who had an R-22 until I found
out he was still a student pilot and had not received his full ticket
yet. Another guy in the community we lived in had the bigger, Robinson
R-44 (four seater). He was ex-military and one hell of a chopper pilot.
I took a couple of lessons with him but really didn't like helicopters.
At the time my fixed wing ticket was still valid and I much preferred
flying a Cessna 172.

===

I'd be interested in knowing why you didn't like helicopters. Didn't
know about the R-22 until a few minutes ago and thought it looked
pretty cool. Would it be safe to fly one to the Bahamas?


When I took some instruction in helicopters I was still a fairly new
fixed wing pilot, having received my ticket in 1998. I didn't have a
lot of hours in fixed wing (still don't) and the helicopters were
totally different animals to me. Furthermore, I don't think I was ever
a "natural" pilot if there is such a thing. My flight instructors
always commented that technical types (engineers) like me were often
difficult to teach because we tend to analyze everything too much,
flying "by the book". A helicopter is much more fussy about pilot
inputs and I think requires more of a "natural" feel for the aircraft,
IMO. Plus, I remember the R-22 had very touchy controls, even when
compared to the R-44 which I also flew a few times.

As far as flying to the Bahamas, I wouldn't try it in a R-22 although
maybe some people do. I don't know enough about it. Even in fixed wing
aircraft I rarely flew over water for long because I always wanted the
option of an emergency landing spot somewhere. I know the R-22 doesn't
carry a lot of fuel and I think it's range is about 220 miles or
something like that. It could probably "make it" in good weather but
without much fuel in reserve. Depends on the load it's carrying also.
When I was flying with the guy in Florida the two of us in the R-22 were
technically overloaded but it performed fine.

I think the key words in your question was "Would it be safe ....?"
I never really felt safe with my hands on the bar and feet on the pedals
in a helicopter. :-)

I also took a couple of flight lessons in a different type of helicopter
up here in MA to see if I got more comfortable with it. I didn't. It's
hard for some who learned to fly fixed wing to make the transition to
helicopters.

For me, learning to fly had been a lifelong dream and goal but once
accomplished I realized that I felt much more at home and safer on a boat.

I'm glad I didn't read that before I went to Vietnam!


In avionics, "attitude" is the aircraft's three dimensional position
relative to the earth or horizon.

Properly trimmed and setup an aircraft like a Cessna 172 is inherently
very safe and easy to fly. It naturally wants to assume a straight and
level flight attitude. It takes pilot influence to put it into an
unusual attitude. For example, by it's design it's difficult to put it
into a spin. To me that's the big difference I found in fixed wing
aircraft that I flew and helicopters. It took some pilot effort and
influence to induce an unusual attitude in a fixed wing Cessna. In a
helicopter it took constant pilot effort and attention just to
*maintain" normal attitude. At least it did for me.


Hell, there's a big difference in flying model helicopters and model fixed wings. I think the fixed
wings would be much easier. Luckily this little thing I've got seems fairly indestructible. It's
bounced off ceilings, light fixtures, walls, floors, chairs, etc, but still flies.

This is the model I'm considering. Looks quite like the Cessna 172. It also has the 'SAFE'
technology for an amateur like me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLXuKJesAHLN9sevzQ1naPPO4Ly9FdJj6w&v=tH _fds9EJqY&feature=player_detailpage


My v911 fractured a blade and spit out a ball link last night after a
series of crashes. I'm grounded unless I can find that ball link.

I wouldn't get...
 

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 11:38:16 -0500, Hank wrote:

On 1/25/2014 10:39 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 09:23:27 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 1/25/2014 8:46 AM, Poco Loco wrote:

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 04:47:27 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 1/24/2014 10:52 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jan 2014 21:12:40 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

I flew a few times with a guy in Florida who had an R-22 until I found
out he was still a student pilot and had not received his full ticket
yet. Another guy in the community we lived in had the bigger, Robinson
R-44 (four seater). He was ex-military and one hell of a chopper pilot.
I took a couple of lessons with him but really didn't like helicopters.
At the time my fixed wing ticket was still valid and I much preferred
flying a Cessna 172.

===

I'd be interested in knowing why you didn't like helicopters. Didn't
know about the R-22 until a few minutes ago and thought it looked
pretty cool. Would it be safe to fly one to the Bahamas?


When I took some instruction in helicopters I was still a fairly new
fixed wing pilot, having received my ticket in 1998. I didn't have a
lot of hours in fixed wing (still don't) and the helicopters were
totally different animals to me. Furthermore, I don't think I was ever
a "natural" pilot if there is such a thing. My flight instructors
always commented that technical types (engineers) like me were often
difficult to teach because we tend to analyze everything too much,
flying "by the book". A helicopter is much more fussy about pilot
inputs and I think requires more of a "natural" feel for the aircraft,
IMO. Plus, I remember the R-22 had very touchy controls, even when
compared to the R-44 which I also flew a few times.

As far as flying to the Bahamas, I wouldn't try it in a R-22 although
maybe some people do. I don't know enough about it. Even in fixed wing
aircraft I rarely flew over water for long because I always wanted the
option of an emergency landing spot somewhere. I know the R-22 doesn't
carry a lot of fuel and I think it's range is about 220 miles or
something like that. It could probably "make it" in good weather but
without much fuel in reserve. Depends on the load it's carrying also.
When I was flying with the guy in Florida the two of us in the R-22 were
technically overloaded but it performed fine.

I think the key words in your question was "Would it be safe ....?"
I never really felt safe with my hands on the bar and feet on the pedals
in a helicopter. :-)

I also took a couple of flight lessons in a different type of helicopter
up here in MA to see if I got more comfortable with it. I didn't. It's
hard for some who learned to fly fixed wing to make the transition to
helicopters.

For me, learning to fly had been a lifelong dream and goal but once
accomplished I realized that I felt much more at home and safer on a boat.

I'm glad I didn't read that before I went to Vietnam!


In avionics, "attitude" is the aircraft's three dimensional position
relative to the earth or horizon.

Properly trimmed and setup an aircraft like a Cessna 172 is inherently
very safe and easy to fly. It naturally wants to assume a straight and
level flight attitude. It takes pilot influence to put it into an
unusual attitude. For example, by it's design it's difficult to put it
into a spin. To me that's the big difference I found in fixed wing
aircraft that I flew and helicopters. It took some pilot effort and
influence to induce an unusual attitude in a fixed wing Cessna. In a
helicopter it took constant pilot effort and attention just to
*maintain" normal attitude. At least it did for me.


Hell, there's a big difference in flying model helicopters and model fixed wings. I think the fixed
wings would be much easier. Luckily this little thing I've got seems fairly indestructible. It's
bounced off ceilings, light fixtures, walls, floors, chairs, etc, but still flies.

This is the model I'm considering. Looks quite like the Cessna 172. It also has the 'SAFE'
technology for an amateur like me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLXuKJesAHLN9sevzQ1naPPO4Ly9FdJj6w&v=tH _fds9EJqY&feature=player_detailpage


My v911 fractured a blade and spit out a ball link last night after a
series of crashes. I'm grounded unless I can find that ball link.

These? Lost inside or out? If I lose something small inside I'll grab a flashlight. Always helps.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/170900050532?lpid=82

Maybe you could get the guy to overnight it.

I wouldn't get...
 

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 04:47:27 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

For me, learning to fly had been a lifelong dream and goal but once
accomplished I realized that I felt much more at home and safer on a boat.

===

Roger that. At least boats don't fall from the sky. :-)

I wouldn't get...
 

F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 1/25/14, 4:47 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 1/24/2014 10:52 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jan 2014 21:12:40 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

I flew a few times with a guy in Florida who had an R-22 until I found
out he was still a student pilot and had not received his full ticket
yet. Another guy in the community we lived in had the bigger,
Robinson
R-44 (four seater). He was ex-military and one hell of a chopper
pilot.
I took a couple of lessons with him but really didn't like
helicopters.
At the time my fixed wing ticket was still valid and I much
preferred
flying a Cessna 172.

===

I'd be interested in knowing why you didn't like helicopters. Didn't
know about the R-22 until a few minutes ago and thought it looked
pretty cool. Would it be safe to fly one to the Bahamas?


When I took some instruction in helicopters I was still a fairly new
fixed wing pilot, having received my ticket in 1998. I didn't have a
lot of hours in fixed wing (still don't) and the helicopters were
totally different animals to me. Furthermore, I don't think I was ever
a "natural" pilot if there is such a thing. My flight instructors
always commented that technical types (engineers) like me were often
difficult to teach because we tend to analyze everything too much,
flying "by the book". A helicopter is much more fussy about pilot
inputs and I think requires more of a "natural" feel for the aircraft,
IMO. Plus, I remember the R-22 had very touchy controls, even when
compared to the R-44 which I also flew a few times.

As far as flying to the Bahamas, I wouldn't try it in a R-22 although
maybe some people do. I don't know enough about it. Even in fixed wing
aircraft I rarely flew over water for long because I always wanted the
option of an emergency landing spot somewhere. I know the R-22 doesn't
carry a lot of fuel and I think it's range is about 220 miles or
something like that. It could probably "make it" in good weather but
without much fuel in reserve. Depends on the load it's carrying also.
When I was flying with the guy in Florida the two of us in the R-22 were
technically overloaded but it performed fine.

I think the key words in your question was "Would it be safe ....?"
I never really felt safe with my hands on the bar and feet on the pedals
in a helicopter. :-)

I also took a couple of flight lessons in a different type of helicopter
up here in MA to see if I got more comfortable with it. I didn't. It's
hard for some who learned to fly fixed wing to make the transition to
helicopters.

For me, learning to fly had been a lifelong dream and goal but once
accomplished I realized that I felt much more at home and safer on a
boat.


I was on a helicopter that "went down" hard in West Virginia. Some
sort of oil or hydraulic failure. No one was injured, and the copter
was hauled away on a flatbed. That was enough helicoptering for me.

I took a few flying lessons when I lived in Michigan. Then a friend
and political colleague who was an experienced pilot died when his
plane crashed. Then my political mentor and friend Walter Reuther died
when the Learjet he was in crashed. Then in DC, a printer who was a
friend of mine died when his plane crashed.

Oh, and when I worked for the NEA, I was on a commercial plane heading
for a landing near Harrisburg, PA. The weather was awful and suddenly
out the window we saw tall smokestacks at wing level right next to us.
The pilot took the plane as near vertical as he could and the flight
attendent, as she tumbled towards the back of the plane, muttered,
"we're going to die."

I dislike flying. :) I do it when I have to, but I am a lousy
passenger.


Sure.

I wouldn't get...
 

On Saturday, January 25, 2014 6:22:46 AM UTC-6, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 1/25/14, 4:47 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:

On 1/24/2014 10:52 PM, Wayne.B wrote:

On Fri, 24 Jan 2014 21:12:40 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"

wrote:



I flew a few times with a guy in Florida who had an R-22 until I found

out he was still a student pilot and had not received his full ticket

yet. Another guy in the community we lived in had the bigger, Robinson

R-44 (four seater). He was ex-military and one hell of a chopper pilot.

I took a couple of lessons with him but really didn't like helicopters.

At the time my fixed wing ticket was still valid and I much preferred

flying a Cessna 172.



===



I'd be interested in knowing why you didn't like helicopters. Didn't

know about the R-22 until a few minutes ago and thought it looked

pretty cool. Would it be safe to fly one to the Bahamas?





When I took some instruction in helicopters I was still a fairly new

fixed wing pilot, having received my ticket in 1998. I didn't have a

lot of hours in fixed wing (still don't) and the helicopters were

totally different animals to me. Furthermore, I don't think I was ever

a "natural" pilot if there is such a thing. My flight instructors

always commented that technical types (engineers) like me were often

difficult to teach because we tend to analyze everything too much,

flying "by the book". A helicopter is much more fussy about pilot

inputs and I think requires more of a "natural" feel for the aircraft,

IMO. Plus, I remember the R-22 had very touchy controls, even when

compared to the R-44 which I also flew a few times.



As far as flying to the Bahamas, I wouldn't try it in a R-22 although

maybe some people do. I don't know enough about it. Even in fixed wing

aircraft I rarely flew over water for long because I always wanted the

option of an emergency landing spot somewhere. I know the R-22 doesn't

carry a lot of fuel and I think it's range is about 220 miles or

something like that. It could probably "make it" in good weather but

without much fuel in reserve. Depends on the load it's carrying also.

When I was flying with the guy in Florida the two of us in the R-22 were

technically overloaded but it performed fine.



I think the key words in your question was "Would it be safe ....?"

I never really felt safe with my hands on the bar and feet on the pedals

in a helicopter. :-)



I also took a couple of flight lessons in a different type of helicopter

up here in MA to see if I got more comfortable with it. I didn't. It's

hard for some who learned to fly fixed wing to make the transition to

helicopters.



For me, learning to fly had been a lifelong dream and goal but once

accomplished I realized that I felt much more at home and safer on a boat.





I was on a helicopter that "went down" hard in West Virginia. Some sort

of oil or hydraulic failure. No one was injured, and the copter was

hauled away on a flatbed. That was enough helicoptering for me.



I took a few flying lessons when I lived in Michigan. Then a friend and

political colleague who was an experienced pilot died when his plane

crashed. Then my political mentor and friend Walter Reuther died when

the Learjet he was in crashed. Then in DC, a printer who was a friend of

mine died when his plane crashed.



Oh, and when I worked for the NEA, I was on a commercial plane heading

for a landing near Harrisburg, PA. The weather was awful and suddenly

out the window we saw tall smokestacks at wing level right next to us.

The pilot took the plane as near vertical as he could and the flight

attendent, as she tumbled towards the back of the plane, muttered,

"we're going to die."



I dislike flying. :) I do it when I have to, but I am a lousy passenger.

Walter Reuther. Sure thing Krausebag. And you've known every president since Truman (or was it Wilson?). Didn't you win some sort of award for knowing the most important people? Very impressive. By the way, been back on the Yale campus recently?

I wouldn't get...
 

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 20:52:51 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Saturday, January 25, 2014 6:22:46 AM UTC-6, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 1/25/14, 4:47 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:

On 1/24/2014 10:52 PM, Wayne.B wrote:

On Fri, 24 Jan 2014 21:12:40 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"

wrote:



I flew a few times with a guy in Florida who had an R-22 until I found

out he was still a student pilot and had not received his full ticket

yet. Another guy in the community we lived in had the bigger, Robinson

R-44 (four seater). He was ex-military and one hell of a chopper pilot.

I took a couple of lessons with him but really didn't like helicopters.

At the time my fixed wing ticket was still valid and I much preferred

flying a Cessna 172.



===



I'd be interested in knowing why you didn't like helicopters. Didn't

know about the R-22 until a few minutes ago and thought it looked

pretty cool. Would it be safe to fly one to the Bahamas?





When I took some instruction in helicopters I was still a fairly new

fixed wing pilot, having received my ticket in 1998. I didn't have a

lot of hours in fixed wing (still don't) and the helicopters were

totally different animals to me. Furthermore, I don't think I was ever

a "natural" pilot if there is such a thing. My flight instructors

always commented that technical types (engineers) like me were often

difficult to teach because we tend to analyze everything too much,

flying "by the book". A helicopter is much more fussy about pilot

inputs and I think requires more of a "natural" feel for the aircraft,

IMO. Plus, I remember the R-22 had very touchy controls, even when

compared to the R-44 which I also flew a few times.



As far as flying to the Bahamas, I wouldn't try it in a R-22 although

maybe some people do. I don't know enough about it. Even in fixed wing

aircraft I rarely flew over water for long because I always wanted the

option of an emergency landing spot somewhere. I know the R-22 doesn't

carry a lot of fuel and I think it's range is about 220 miles or

something like that. It could probably "make it" in good weather but

without much fuel in reserve. Depends on the load it's carrying also.

When I was flying with the guy in Florida the two of us in the R-22 were

technically overloaded but it performed fine.



I think the key words in your question was "Would it be safe ....?"

I never really felt safe with my hands on the bar and feet on the pedals

in a helicopter. :-)



I also took a couple of flight lessons in a different type of helicopter

up here in MA to see if I got more comfortable with it. I didn't. It's

hard for some who learned to fly fixed wing to make the transition to

helicopters.



For me, learning to fly had been a lifelong dream and goal but once

accomplished I realized that I felt much more at home and safer on a boat.





I was on a helicopter that "went down" hard in West Virginia. Some sort

of oil or hydraulic failure. No one was injured, and the copter was

hauled away on a flatbed. That was enough helicoptering for me.



I took a few flying lessons when I lived in Michigan. Then a friend and

political colleague who was an experienced pilot died when his plane

crashed. Then my political mentor and friend Walter Reuther died when

the Learjet he was in crashed. Then in DC, a printer who was a friend of

mine died when his plane crashed.



Oh, and when I worked for the NEA, I was on a commercial plane heading

for a landing near Harrisburg, PA. The weather was awful and suddenly

out the window we saw tall smokestacks at wing level right next to us.

The pilot took the plane as near vertical as he could and the flight

attendent, as she tumbled towards the back of the plane, muttered,

"we're going to die."



I dislike flying. :) I do it when I have to, but I am a lousy passenger.

Walter Reuther. Sure thing Krausebag. And you've known every president since Truman (or was it Wilson?). Didn't you win some sort of award for knowing the most important people? Very impressive. By the way, been back on the Yale campus recently?

Think 'kinder' and 'gentler'.

I wouldn't get...
 

On 1/26/14, 11:50 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 20:52:51 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Saturday, January 25, 2014 6:22:46 AM UTC-6, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 1/25/14, 4:47 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:

On 1/24/2014 10:52 PM, Wayne.B wrote:

On Fri, 24 Jan 2014 21:12:40 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"

wrote:



I flew a few times with a guy in Florida who had an R-22 until I found

out he was still a student pilot and had not received his full ticket

yet. Another guy in the community we lived in had the bigger, Robinson

R-44 (four seater). He was ex-military and one hell of a chopper pilot.

I took a couple of lessons with him but really didn't like helicopters.

At the time my fixed wing ticket was still valid and I much preferred

flying a Cessna 172.



===



I'd be interested in knowing why you didn't like helicopters. Didn't

know about the R-22 until a few minutes ago and thought it looked

pretty cool. Would it be safe to fly one to the Bahamas?





When I took some instruction in helicopters I was still a fairly new

fixed wing pilot, having received my ticket in 1998. I didn't have a

lot of hours in fixed wing (still don't) and the helicopters were

totally different animals to me. Furthermore, I don't think I was ever

a "natural" pilot if there is such a thing. My flight instructors

always commented that technical types (engineers) like me were often

difficult to teach because we tend to analyze everything too much,

flying "by the book". A helicopter is much more fussy about pilot

inputs and I think requires more of a "natural" feel for the aircraft,

IMO. Plus, I remember the R-22 had very touchy controls, even when

compared to the R-44 which I also flew a few times.



As far as flying to the Bahamas, I wouldn't try it in a R-22 although

maybe some people do. I don't know enough about it. Even in fixed wing

aircraft I rarely flew over water for long because I always wanted the

option of an emergency landing spot somewhere. I know the R-22 doesn't

carry a lot of fuel and I think it's range is about 220 miles or

something like that. It could probably "make it" in good weather but

without much fuel in reserve. Depends on the load it's carrying also.

When I was flying with the guy in Florida the two of us in the R-22 were

technically overloaded but it performed fine.



I think the key words in your question was "Would it be safe ....?"

I never really felt safe with my hands on the bar and feet on the pedals

in a helicopter. :-)



I also took a couple of flight lessons in a different type of helicopter

up here in MA to see if I got more comfortable with it. I didn't. It's

hard for some who learned to fly fixed wing to make the transition to

helicopters.



For me, learning to fly had been a lifelong dream and goal but once

accomplished I realized that I felt much more at home and safer on a boat.





I was on a helicopter that "went down" hard in West Virginia. Some sort

of oil or hydraulic failure. No one was injured, and the copter was

hauled away on a flatbed. That was enough helicoptering for me.



I took a few flying lessons when I lived in Michigan. Then a friend and

political colleague who was an experienced pilot died when his plane

crashed. Then my political mentor and friend Walter Reuther died when

the Learjet he was in crashed. Then in DC, a printer who was a friend of

mine died when his plane crashed.



Oh, and when I worked for the NEA, I was on a commercial plane heading

for a landing near Harrisburg, PA. The weather was awful and suddenly

out the window we saw tall smokestacks at wing level right next to us.

The pilot took the plane as near vertical as he could and the flight

attendent, as she tumbled towards the back of the plane, muttered,

"we're going to die."



I dislike flying. :) I do it when I have to, but I am a lousy passenger.

Walter Reuther. Sure thing Krausebag. And you've known every president since Truman (or was it Wilson?). Didn't you win some sort of award for knowing the most important people? Very impressive. By the way, been back on the Yale campus recently?

Think 'kinder' and 'gentler'.



Wow. "Boater" still posts here. The selling of roadside food shacks must
have slowed down in Mississippi.

I wouldn't get...
 

On 1/26/2014 2:51 PM, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 1/26/14, 11:50 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 20:52:51 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Saturday, January 25, 2014 6:22:46 AM UTC-6, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 1/25/14, 4:47 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:

On 1/24/2014 10:52 PM, Wayne.B wrote:

On Fri, 24 Jan 2014 21:12:40 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"


wrote:



I flew a few times with a guy in Florida who had an R-22 until I
found

out he was still a student pilot and had not received his full
ticket

yet. Another guy in the community we lived in had the bigger,
Robinson

R-44 (four seater). He was ex-military and one hell of a chopper
pilot.

I took a couple of lessons with him but really didn't like
helicopters.

At the time my fixed wing ticket was still valid and I much
preferred

flying a Cessna 172.



===



I'd be interested in knowing why you didn't like helicopters.
Didn't

know about the R-22 until a few minutes ago and thought it looked

pretty cool. Would it be safe to fly one to the Bahamas?





When I took some instruction in helicopters I was still a fairly new

fixed wing pilot, having received my ticket in 1998. I didn't have a

lot of hours in fixed wing (still don't) and the helicopters were

totally different animals to me. Furthermore, I don't think I was
ever

a "natural" pilot if there is such a thing. My flight instructors

always commented that technical types (engineers) like me were often

difficult to teach because we tend to analyze everything too much,

flying "by the book". A helicopter is much more fussy about pilot

inputs and I think requires more of a "natural" feel for the aircraft,

IMO. Plus, I remember the R-22 had very touchy controls, even when

compared to the R-44 which I also flew a few times.



As far as flying to the Bahamas, I wouldn't try it in a R-22 although

maybe some people do. I don't know enough about it. Even in fixed wing

aircraft I rarely flew over water for long because I always wanted the

option of an emergency landing spot somewhere. I know the R-22
doesn't

carry a lot of fuel and I think it's range is about 220 miles or

something like that. It could probably "make it" in good weather but

without much fuel in reserve. Depends on the load it's carrying also.

When I was flying with the guy in Florida the two of us in the R-22
were

technically overloaded but it performed fine.



I think the key words in your question was "Would it be safe ....?"

I never really felt safe with my hands on the bar and feet on the
pedals

in a helicopter. :-)



I also took a couple of flight lessons in a different type of
helicopter

up here in MA to see if I got more comfortable with it. I didn't.
It's

hard for some who learned to fly fixed wing to make the transition to

helicopters.



For me, learning to fly had been a lifelong dream and goal but once

accomplished I realized that I felt much more at home and safer on
a boat.





I was on a helicopter that "went down" hard in West Virginia. Some sort

of oil or hydraulic failure. No one was injured, and the copter was

hauled away on a flatbed. That was enough helicoptering for me.



I took a few flying lessons when I lived in Michigan. Then a friend and

political colleague who was an experienced pilot died when his plane

crashed. Then my political mentor and friend Walter Reuther died when

the Learjet he was in crashed. Then in DC, a printer who was a
friend of

mine died when his plane crashed.



Oh, and when I worked for the NEA, I was on a commercial plane heading

for a landing near Harrisburg, PA. The weather was awful and suddenly

out the window we saw tall smokestacks at wing level right next to us.

The pilot took the plane as near vertical as he could and the flight

attendent, as she tumbled towards the back of the plane, muttered,

"we're going to die."



I dislike flying. :) I do it when I have to, but I am a lousy
passenger.

Walter Reuther. Sure thing Krausebag. And you've known every
president since Truman (or was it Wilson?). Didn't you win some sort
of award for knowing the most important people? Very impressive. By
the way, been back on the Yale campus recently?

Think 'kinder' and 'gentler'.



Wow. "Boater" still posts here. The selling of roadside food shacks must
have slowed down in Mississippi.

Do I need to remind you Mr. Foad, that you pride yourself on being less
snarky since the beginning of the year. Does this mean you are giving up
on that noble quest?

I wouldn't get...
 

On 1/26/14, 3:44 PM, Hank wrote:
On 1/26/2014 2:51 PM, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 1/26/14, 11:50 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 20:52:51 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Saturday, January 25, 2014 6:22:46 AM UTC-6, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 1/25/14, 4:47 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:

On 1/24/2014 10:52 PM, Wayne.B wrote:

On Fri, 24 Jan 2014 21:12:40 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"


wrote:



I flew a few times with a guy in Florida who had an R-22 until I
found

out he was still a student pilot and had not received his full
ticket

yet. Another guy in the community we lived in had the bigger,
Robinson

R-44 (four seater). He was ex-military and one hell of a chopper
pilot.

I took a couple of lessons with him but really didn't like
helicopters.

At the time my fixed wing ticket was still valid and I much
preferred

flying a Cessna 172.



===



I'd be interested in knowing why you didn't like helicopters.
Didn't

know about the R-22 until a few minutes ago and thought it looked

pretty cool. Would it be safe to fly one to the Bahamas?





When I took some instruction in helicopters I was still a fairly new

fixed wing pilot, having received my ticket in 1998. I didn't have a

lot of hours in fixed wing (still don't) and the helicopters were

totally different animals to me. Furthermore, I don't think I was
ever

a "natural" pilot if there is such a thing. My flight instructors

always commented that technical types (engineers) like me were often

difficult to teach because we tend to analyze everything too much,

flying "by the book". A helicopter is much more fussy about pilot

inputs and I think requires more of a "natural" feel for the
aircraft,

IMO. Plus, I remember the R-22 had very touchy controls, even when

compared to the R-44 which I also flew a few times.



As far as flying to the Bahamas, I wouldn't try it in a R-22 although

maybe some people do. I don't know enough about it. Even in fixed
wing

aircraft I rarely flew over water for long because I always wanted
the

option of an emergency landing spot somewhere. I know the R-22
doesn't

carry a lot of fuel and I think it's range is about 220 miles or

something like that. It could probably "make it" in good weather
but

without much fuel in reserve. Depends on the load it's carrying also.

When I was flying with the guy in Florida the two of us in the R-22
were

technically overloaded but it performed fine.



I think the key words in your question was "Would it be safe ....?"

I never really felt safe with my hands on the bar and feet on the
pedals

in a helicopter. :-)



I also took a couple of flight lessons in a different type of
helicopter

up here in MA to see if I got more comfortable with it. I didn't.
It's

hard for some who learned to fly fixed wing to make the transition to

helicopters.



For me, learning to fly had been a lifelong dream and goal but once

accomplished I realized that I felt much more at home and safer on
a boat.





I was on a helicopter that "went down" hard in West Virginia. Some
sort

of oil or hydraulic failure. No one was injured, and the copter was

hauled away on a flatbed. That was enough helicoptering for me.



I took a few flying lessons when I lived in Michigan. Then a friend
and

political colleague who was an experienced pilot died when his plane

crashed. Then my political mentor and friend Walter Reuther died when

the Learjet he was in crashed. Then in DC, a printer who was a
friend of

mine died when his plane crashed.



Oh, and when I worked for the NEA, I was on a commercial plane heading

for a landing near Harrisburg, PA. The weather was awful and suddenly

out the window we saw tall smokestacks at wing level right next to us.

The pilot took the plane as near vertical as he could and the flight

attendent, as she tumbled towards the back of the plane, muttered,

"we're going to die."



I dislike flying. :) I do it when I have to, but I am a lousy
passenger.

Walter Reuther. Sure thing Krausebag. And you've known every
president since Truman (or was it Wilson?). Didn't you win some sort
of award for knowing the most important people? Very impressive. By
the way, been back on the Yale campus recently?

Think 'kinder' and 'gentler'.



Wow. "Boater" still posts here. The selling of roadside food shacks must
have slowed down in Mississippi.

Do I need to remind you Mr. Foad, that you pride yourself on being less
snarky since the beginning of the year. Does this mean you are giving up
on that noble quest?


My behavior here so far this year is head and shoulders more "noble"
than yours and some of those who are your buds or who you encourage or
both.

Have nice day.

I wouldn't get...
 

On 1/26/2014 3:49 PM, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 1/26/14, 3:44 PM, Hank wrote:
On 1/26/2014 2:51 PM, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 1/26/14, 11:50 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 20:52:51 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Saturday, January 25, 2014 6:22:46 AM UTC-6, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 1/25/14, 4:47 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:

On 1/24/2014 10:52 PM, Wayne.B wrote:

On Fri, 24 Jan 2014 21:12:40 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"


wrote:



I flew a few times with a guy in Florida who had an R-22 until I
found

out he was still a student pilot and had not received his full
ticket

yet. Another guy in the community we lived in had the bigger,
Robinson

R-44 (four seater). He was ex-military and one hell of a chopper
pilot.

I took a couple of lessons with him but really didn't like
helicopters.

At the time my fixed wing ticket was still valid and I much
preferred

flying a Cessna 172.



===



I'd be interested in knowing why you didn't like helicopters.
Didn't

know about the R-22 until a few minutes ago and thought it looked

pretty cool. Would it be safe to fly one to the Bahamas?





When I took some instruction in helicopters I was still a fairly new

fixed wing pilot, having received my ticket in 1998. I didn't
have a

lot of hours in fixed wing (still don't) and the helicopters were

totally different animals to me. Furthermore, I don't think I was
ever

a "natural" pilot if there is such a thing. My flight instructors

always commented that technical types (engineers) like me were often

difficult to teach because we tend to analyze everything too much,

flying "by the book". A helicopter is much more fussy about pilot

inputs and I think requires more of a "natural" feel for the
aircraft,

IMO. Plus, I remember the R-22 had very touchy controls, even when

compared to the R-44 which I also flew a few times.



As far as flying to the Bahamas, I wouldn't try it in a R-22
although

maybe some people do. I don't know enough about it. Even in fixed
wing

aircraft I rarely flew over water for long because I always wanted
the

option of an emergency landing spot somewhere. I know the R-22
doesn't

carry a lot of fuel and I think it's range is about 220 miles or

something like that. It could probably "make it" in good weather
but

without much fuel in reserve. Depends on the load it's carrying
also.

When I was flying with the guy in Florida the two of us in the R-22
were

technically overloaded but it performed fine.



I think the key words in your question was "Would it be safe ....?"

I never really felt safe with my hands on the bar and feet on the
pedals

in a helicopter. :-)



I also took a couple of flight lessons in a different type of
helicopter

up here in MA to see if I got more comfortable with it. I didn't.
It's

hard for some who learned to fly fixed wing to make the
transition to

helicopters.



For me, learning to fly had been a lifelong dream and goal but once

accomplished I realized that I felt much more at home and safer on
a boat.





I was on a helicopter that "went down" hard in West Virginia. Some
sort

of oil or hydraulic failure. No one was injured, and the copter was

hauled away on a flatbed. That was enough helicoptering for me.



I took a few flying lessons when I lived in Michigan. Then a friend
and

political colleague who was an experienced pilot died when his plane

crashed. Then my political mentor and friend Walter Reuther died when

the Learjet he was in crashed. Then in DC, a printer who was a
friend of

mine died when his plane crashed.



Oh, and when I worked for the NEA, I was on a commercial plane
heading

for a landing near Harrisburg, PA. The weather was awful and suddenly

out the window we saw tall smokestacks at wing level right next to
us.

The pilot took the plane as near vertical as he could and the flight

attendent, as she tumbled towards the back of the plane, muttered,

"we're going to die."



I dislike flying. :) I do it when I have to, but I am a lousy
passenger.

Walter Reuther. Sure thing Krausebag. And you've known every
president since Truman (or was it Wilson?). Didn't you win some sort
of award for knowing the most important people? Very impressive. By
the way, been back on the Yale campus recently?

Think 'kinder' and 'gentler'.



Wow. "Boater" still posts here. The selling of roadside food shacks must
have slowed down in Mississippi.

Do I need to remind you Mr. Foad, that you pride yourself on being less
snarky since the beginning of the year. Does this mean you are giving up
on that noble quest?


My behavior here so far this year is head and shoulders more "noble"
than yours and some of those who are your buds or who you encourage or
both.

Have nice day.

Why do you measure your behavior relative to the behavior of others. I
hate to think we are, in a sense, controlling the way you behave. If
that's the case, shame on us.