On 1/21/14, 5:53 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 1/20/2014 11:16 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 20 Jan 2014 19:03:48 -0500, "F.O.A.D." wrote:


Since we had our genny installed, we haven't had a power outage that
lasts more than a couple of minutes. We take credit for that!

Me too, since I bought a generator, I have not had anything worth
going out and flipping the transfer switch.
(not automatic)

I am glad I saved that $5000 ;-)



The only way I could justify a whole house generator is if there was a
permanent and direct fuel supply to it, like natural gas. Otherwise it
doesn't make sense to me.

A short term (meaning 1 or 2 day) loss of power is manageable using a
small generator like the little Honda.

The problem I'd have with a large, whole house generator is fuel. We
don't have natural gas coming up to the house so the generator would
have to be propane, gas or diesel. We have a 100 gal propane tank that
feeds a Hot Dawg garage heater but a whole house generator would drain a
full tank of propane in a couple of days. Since long term power outages
up here are due to winter snowstorms, it's unlikely we could get a
propane delivery every other day. Same with diesel.

I learned that lesson in Florida following Hurricane Wilma. I had just
purchased the little Honda and had also purchased a 12KW gasoline
powered generator and wired it into the main panel. It wouldn't power
everything, but I could selectively turn on what was needed (well pump,
water heater, certain room outlets, refrigerator, microwave, etc.)

I thought I was well prepared with about 6, five gallon gasoline
containers. Not so. That 12kw generator burned far more gas than I
expected and it was clear that my supply would only last two or three
days at best. So I used it sparingly and had the little Honda running
24/7 to power a refrigerator, couple of lights, the Direct TV box and a
TV. The Honda sips fuel, running almost 24 hours on two gallons or less.

We were powerless for just over a week following Wilma and gas, if you
could find a station with aux power, was scarce.

When we installed our pool eight years ago (up here in MA) the
electrical contractor tried to sell me a whole house generator, telling
me it could be fueled by the propane tank we use for the garage heater.
He specified a 20kw generator for our house. I doubt a full tank of
propane would last 2 days.

We ran underground conduit and wiring for one, but I held off on the
generator. In the eight years since, we've only experienced two longer
term power outages, both due to winter storms. Each lasted about 3 days
and the little Honda got us through them both.








We have a 500 gallon buried tank, so it gets filled to 400 gallons. I
think our genny burns about 1.75 gph at half load, so at any time during
the month between tank top-offs, we should have at least a week of run
time, probably more if it is winter, because the larger of our two heat
pumps primarily runs off propane anyway, so if the power goes out, the
only additional load for heat from the generator will be to run the
compressor and furnace fan. The smaller heat pump is not on generator
backup.

The longest power outage we have had here to date was five days. It was
hot outside and it was miserable.

On 1/21/14, 11:34 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 21 Jan 2014 06:43:56 -0500, "F.O.A.D." wrote:


We have a 500 gallon buried tank, so it gets filled to 400 gallons. I
think our genny burns about 1.75 gph at half load, so at any time during
the month between tank top-offs, we should have at least a week of run
time, probably more if it is winter, because the larger of our two heat
pumps primarily runs off propane anyway, so if the power goes out, the
only additional load for heat from the generator will be to run the
compressor and furnace fan. The smaller heat pump is not on generator
backup.

... but your gas assisted heat pump is sucking propane out of your
generator fuel tank.
I agree with Dick, "feeding the monster" can be an issue in a long
outage. That term came from our Punta Gorda friends who were living on
a generator for over a month after Charlie.

My wife was prairie building when she brought her community out of the
ground and they ran the construction trailer off of a 36KVA diesel
genset. They got fuel delivered a couple times a week.



The gas assisted heat pump, the water heater, the fireplace and the
stovetop were why we installed the propane tank. I'm not concerned about
running dry because the supplier is on top of things.

On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 11:44:03 AM UTC-5, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 1/21/14, 11:34 AM, wrote:

My wife was prairie building when she brought her community out of the
ground and they ran the construction trailer off of a 36KVA diesel
genset. They got fuel delivered a couple times a week.


The gas assisted heat pump, the water heater, the fireplace and the
stovetop were why we installed the propane tank. I'm not concerned about
running dry because the supplier is on top of things.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2014/01/20/22372040-propane-shortage-adds-to-winter-woes?lite

On 1/21/2014 11:34 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 21 Jan 2014 06:43:56 -0500, "F.O.A.D." wrote:


We have a 500 gallon buried tank, so it gets filled to 400 gallons. I
think our genny burns about 1.75 gph at half load, so at any time during
the month between tank top-offs, we should have at least a week of run
time, probably more if it is winter, because the larger of our two heat
pumps primarily runs off propane anyway, so if the power goes out, the
only additional load for heat from the generator will be to run the
compressor and furnace fan. The smaller heat pump is not on generator
backup.

... but your gas assisted heat pump is sucking propane out of your
generator fuel tank.
I agree with Dick, "feeding the monster" can be an issue in a long
outage. That term came from our Punta Gorda friends who were living on
a generator for over a month after Charlie.

My wife was prairie building when she brought her community out of the
ground and they ran the construction trailer off of a 36KVA diesel
genset. They got fuel delivered a couple times a week.



The problem up here in the Northeast would be when the last time your
tank was filled prior to a long term outage. When we get a major
snowstorm and lose power the propane delivery trucks are usually
grounded for a while as well until all the side roads are cleared. If
the power outage occurred when the tank was low, you're screwed.

If we had natural gas piped up from the street, it would be more
feasible. However, we've lived in this house for going on 14 years now
and the number of long term outages have been minimal. In fact, I can
really only recall not having power for more than a few hours as being
about 3 times in 14 years and they only lasted a day or two with the
worst being 3 days.

Now that I've said that ... we'll probably get creamed with the storm
tonight.

Hmmm... just had a thought. I wonder if they make a generator that
runs off of furnace fuel oil. Probably do. That would be more
practical as we have two 330 gal oil tanks and one 275 gal. We keep
them topped off.

On 1/21/14, 11:50 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 1/21/2014 11:34 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 21 Jan 2014 06:43:56 -0500, "F.O.A.D." wrote:


We have a 500 gallon buried tank, so it gets filled to 400 gallons. I
think our genny burns about 1.75 gph at half load, so at any time during
the month between tank top-offs, we should have at least a week of run
time, probably more if it is winter, because the larger of our two heat
pumps primarily runs off propane anyway, so if the power goes out, the
only additional load for heat from the generator will be to run the
compressor and furnace fan. The smaller heat pump is not on generator
backup.

... but your gas assisted heat pump is sucking propane out of your
generator fuel tank.
I agree with Dick, "feeding the monster" can be an issue in a long
outage. That term came from our Punta Gorda friends who were living on
a generator for over a month after Charlie.

My wife was prairie building when she brought her community out of the
ground and they ran the construction trailer off of a 36KVA diesel
genset. They got fuel delivered a couple times a week.



The problem up here in the Northeast would be when the last time your
tank was filled prior to a long term outage. When we get a major
snowstorm and lose power the propane delivery trucks are usually
grounded for a while as well until all the side roads are cleared. If
the power outage occurred when the tank was low, you're screwed.

If we had natural gas piped up from the street, it would be more
feasible. However, we've lived in this house for going on 14 years now
and the number of long term outages have been minimal. In fact, I can
really only recall not having power for more than a few hours as being
about 3 times in 14 years and they only lasted a day or two with the
worst being 3 days.

Now that I've said that ... we'll probably get creamed with the storm
tonight.

Hmmm... just had a thought. I wonder if they make a generator that
runs off of furnace fuel oil. Probably do. That would be more
practical as we have two 330 gal oil tanks and one 275 gal. We keep
them topped off.






Isn't furnace oil fuel a variation of diesel?

On 1/21/2014 11:58 AM, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 1/21/14, 11:50 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 1/21/2014 11:34 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 21 Jan 2014 06:43:56 -0500, "F.O.A.D." wrote:


We have a 500 gallon buried tank, so it gets filled to 400 gallons. I
think our genny burns about 1.75 gph at half load, so at any time
during
the month between tank top-offs, we should have at least a week of run
time, probably more if it is winter, because the larger of our two heat
pumps primarily runs off propane anyway, so if the power goes out, the
only additional load for heat from the generator will be to run the
compressor and furnace fan. The smaller heat pump is not on generator
backup.

... but your gas assisted heat pump is sucking propane out of your
generator fuel tank.
I agree with Dick, "feeding the monster" can be an issue in a long
outage. That term came from our Punta Gorda friends who were living on
a generator for over a month after Charlie.

My wife was prairie building when she brought her community out of the
ground and they ran the construction trailer off of a 36KVA diesel
genset. They got fuel delivered a couple times a week.



The problem up here in the Northeast would be when the last time your
tank was filled prior to a long term outage. When we get a major
snowstorm and lose power the propane delivery trucks are usually
grounded for a while as well until all the side roads are cleared. If
the power outage occurred when the tank was low, you're screwed.

If we had natural gas piped up from the street, it would be more
feasible. However, we've lived in this house for going on 14 years now
and the number of long term outages have been minimal. In fact, I can
really only recall not having power for more than a few hours as being
about 3 times in 14 years and they only lasted a day or two with the
worst being 3 days.

Now that I've said that ... we'll probably get creamed with the storm
tonight.

Hmmm... just had a thought. I wonder if they make a generator that
runs off of furnace fuel oil. Probably do. That would be more
practical as we have two 330 gal oil tanks and one 275 gal. We keep
them topped off.






Isn't furnace oil fuel a variation of diesel?

It's a variation but my understanding is that furnace oil does not
contain lubrication additives required for diesel engines. I don't
think I'd try it.

On 1/21/2014 1:00 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 21 Jan 2014 11:58:57 -0500, "F.O.A.D." wrote:


Isn't furnace oil fuel a variation of diesel?

Same stuff, without the taxes



Not so. Fundamentally they are the same but diesel fuel is refined to a
higher level, contains seasonal additives, is "cleaner" and has a much
higher cetane rating. Fuel oil for your furnace has a much lower
volatility rating and is not designed or blended for use in a diesel
engine. I am not saying it won't burn, but it's not doing the engine
any favors and won't produce much power assuming it runs.

Try burning it in a diesel engine in cold climates and your not going
anywhere.

On 1/21/2014 1:46 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 1/21/2014 1:00 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 21 Jan 2014 11:58:57 -0500, "F.O.A.D." wrote:


Isn't furnace oil fuel a variation of diesel?

Same stuff, without the taxes



Not so. Fundamentally they are the same but diesel fuel is refined to a
higher level, contains seasonal additives, is "cleaner" and has a much
higher cetane rating. Fuel oil for your furnace has a much lower
volatility rating and is not designed or blended for use in a diesel
engine. I am not saying it won't burn, but it's not doing the engine
any favors and won't produce much power assuming it runs.

Try burning it in a diesel engine in cold climates and your not going
anywhere.


Cetane boosters are readily available.

I heard they mixed a little gasoline into the diesel oil to create
"winter blend". Maybe it's just an old wives tale.

On 1/21/2014 11:50 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
Hmmm... just had a thought. I wonder if they make a generator that
runs off of furnace fuel oil. Probably do. That would be more
practical as we have two 330 gal oil tanks and one 275 gal. We keep
them topped off.


Why wouldn't a diesel genny work?

On Tue, 21 Jan 2014 11:50:50 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

Hmmm... just had a thought. I wonder if they make a generator that
runs off of furnace fuel oil. Probably do. That would be more
practical as we have two 330 gal oil tanks and one 275 gal. We keep
them topped off.

===

#2 furnace fuel is a very close relative of diesel, all it lacks is
the cetane booster. You can buy cetane booster and keep it around
for when it is needed. You should probably install some extra
filtration, like a Racor, in the line going to the generator.