Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

(CN) - An avowed atheist who was jailed for refusing to participate in
a 12-step treatment program deserves a new trial of his civil rights
claims, the 9th Circuit ruled.
Barry Hazle sued his parole officer, several California
corrections officials and Westcare Corp. after they revoked his
probation for a drug conviction because of his "congenial" refusal to
recognize a higher power, as the 12-step recovery method requires.
Hazle said he told officials several times about his atheism and
reluctance to participate in religious treatment programs after pleading
no-contest in 2006 to possession of methamphetamine. Nonetheless, in
2007 he was paroled to a 90-day residential program that offered only
the 12 Steps, many of which call for explicit acceptance of God.
When he refused to participate, staff reported Hazle to his parole
officer, saying that he was being "disruptive, though in a congenial
way, to the staff as well as other students," according to the ruling.
Hazle then found himself back in prison for another 100 days.
His federal civil rights action sought damages for false
imprisonment, among other things. U.S. District Judge Garland Burrell in
San Francisco found the defendants were indeed liable for depriving
Hazle of his First Amendment rights and turned the issue over to a jury
to determine the amount of damages.
The jury awarded zero damages.
Hazle shot back with a motion for a new trial, but was denied. A
three-judge panel of the 9th Circuit reversed Friday, finding that Hazle
was entitled to something.
"The district judge's finding of liability establishes that Hazle
suffered actual injury when he was unconstitutionally incarcerated,"
Judge Stephen Reinhardt wrote for the court. "Given this undisputed
finding that Hazle's constitutional rights were violated, and applying
the rule that the award of compensatory damages is mandatory when the
existence of actual injury is beyond dispute, we hold that the district
judge erred in refusing to hold that Hazle was, as a matter of law,
entitled to compensatory damages. We therefore reverse the district
judge's denial of Hazle's motion for a new trial."

http://tinyurl.com/p4pmh65

- - -

Ahh, the religious.

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

On Tuesday, August 27, 2013 9:33:33 PM UTC-4, F.O.A.D. wrote:


FOAD = Earl....I get it now.

GO **** YOURSELF.

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

In article ,
says...

On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 21:33:33 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

(CN) - An avowed atheist who was jailed for refusing to participate in
a 12-step treatment program deserves a new trial of his civil rights
claims, the 9th Circuit ruled.
Barry Hazle sued his parole officer, several California
corrections officials and Westcare Corp. after they revoked his
probation for a drug conviction because of his "congenial" refusal to
recognize a higher power, as the 12-step recovery method requires.
Hazle said he told officials several times about his atheism and
reluctance to participate in religious treatment programs after pleading
no-contest in 2006 to possession of methamphetamine. Nonetheless, in
2007 he was paroled to a 90-day residential program that offered only
the 12 Steps, many of which call for explicit acceptance of God.
When he refused to participate, staff reported Hazle to his parole
officer, saying that he was being "disruptive, though in a congenial
way, to the staff as well as other students," according to the ruling.
Hazle then found himself back in prison for another 100 days.
His federal civil rights action sought damages for false
imprisonment, among other things. U.S. District Judge Garland Burrell in
San Francisco found the defendants were indeed liable for depriving
Hazle of his First Amendment rights and turned the issue over to a jury
to determine the amount of damages.
The jury awarded zero damages.
Hazle shot back with a motion for a new trial, but was denied. A
three-judge panel of the 9th Circuit reversed Friday, finding that Hazle
was entitled to something.
"The district judge's finding of liability establishes that Hazle
suffered actual injury when he was unconstitutionally incarcerated,"
Judge Stephen Reinhardt wrote for the court. "Given this undisputed
finding that Hazle's constitutional rights were violated, and applying
the rule that the award of compensatory damages is mandatory when the
existence of actual injury is beyond dispute, we hold that the district
judge erred in refusing to hold that Hazle was, as a matter of law,
entitled to compensatory damages. We therefore reverse the district
judge's denial of Hazle's motion for a new trial."

http://tinyurl.com/p4pmh65

- - -

Ahh, the religious.

Has anyone had any better success with drug addiction?

Drug addicts are pretty successful at drug addiction....

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

On 8/28/13 11:22 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 21:33:33 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

(CN) - An avowed atheist who was jailed for refusing to participate in
a 12-step treatment program deserves a new trial of his civil rights
claims, the 9th Circuit ruled.
Barry Hazle sued his parole officer, several California
corrections officials and Westcare Corp. after they revoked his
probation for a drug conviction because of his "congenial" refusal to
recognize a higher power, as the 12-step recovery method requires.
Hazle said he told officials several times about his atheism and
reluctance to participate in religious treatment programs after pleading
no-contest in 2006 to possession of methamphetamine. Nonetheless, in
2007 he was paroled to a 90-day residential program that offered only
the 12 Steps, many of which call for explicit acceptance of God.
When he refused to participate, staff reported Hazle to his parole
officer, saying that he was being "disruptive, though in a congenial
way, to the staff as well as other students," according to the ruling.
Hazle then found himself back in prison for another 100 days.
His federal civil rights action sought damages for false
imprisonment, among other things. U.S. District Judge Garland Burrell in
San Francisco found the defendants were indeed liable for depriving
Hazle of his First Amendment rights and turned the issue over to a jury
to determine the amount of damages.
The jury awarded zero damages.
Hazle shot back with a motion for a new trial, but was denied. A
three-judge panel of the 9th Circuit reversed Friday, finding that Hazle
was entitled to something.
"The district judge's finding of liability establishes that Hazle
suffered actual injury when he was unconstitutionally incarcerated,"
Judge Stephen Reinhardt wrote for the court. "Given this undisputed
finding that Hazle's constitutional rights were violated, and applying
the rule that the award of compensatory damages is mandatory when the
existence of actual injury is beyond dispute, we hold that the district
judge erred in refusing to hold that Hazle was, as a matter of law,
entitled to compensatory damages. We therefore reverse the district
judge's denial of Hazle's motion for a new trial."

http://tinyurl.com/p4pmh65

- - -

Ahh, the religious.

Has anyone had any better success with drug addiction?


The 12-Step programs are self-help and reassurance programs, they are
not the sort of "therapy" many addicts need. That therapy incorporates
traditional therapy, whether individual or group, and in many cases,
prescription therapy. If a drug addict goes cold turkey by
himself/herself and right into some 12-step program, the addict has a
good chance of falling over and dying.

The religious underpinnings and overlay of 12-step programs are
off-putting for many addicts. A lot of people simply don't want religion
shoved down their throats.

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

On 8/28/13 1:08 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 12:12:24 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:


Has anyone had any better success with drug addiction?


The 12-Step programs are self-help and reassurance programs, they are
not the sort of "therapy" many addicts need. That therapy incorporates
traditional therapy, whether individual or group, and in many cases,
prescription therapy. If a drug addict goes cold turkey by
himself/herself and right into some 12-step program, the addict has a
good chance of falling over and dying.

The religious underpinnings and overlay of 12-step programs are
off-putting for many addicts. A lot of people simply don't want religion
shoved down their throats.


Conventional therapy is substituting one drug for another.
Is Methadone really that much better than Heroin?
I understand drug companies make the money not drug smugglers but the
drug is about the same.

Religion based programs do have the advantage that they are
substituting a belief for a drug but I guess you think that is as bad.

I do agree it is not the kind of thing that will be successful if it
is just a sentence from a court. They have to believe it will work or
it won't work. The reality is these things don't really work anyway
until the addict decides they don't want to be addicted anymore.
For some, there is no "bottom" that is low enough to do that.

Maybe we should just have drug zones and let them kill themselves.
Free drugs, all you want anytime you want them and come in every
morning with a Bobcat to pick up the bodies.


There are many types of what you call "conventional" therapy. The
12-step programs are not really therapy; they are support mechanisms.

And, once again, if you are an addict on serious **** like heroin, and
you stop cold turkey without using a prescribed substitute under careful
watch, you might die while trying to get clean.

And, no, I don't believe "faith healing" is the antidote for physical or
mental/emotional illnesses. God didn't make you sick and god isn't going
to cure you.

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

In article ,
says...

On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 11:34:38 -0400, iBoaterer
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 21:33:33 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

(CN) - An avowed atheist who was jailed for refusing to participate in

- - -

Ahh, the religious.

Has anyone had any better success with drug addiction?

Drug addicts are pretty successful at drug addiction....

You can say what you want to about religion but substituting faith for
drugs seems to be more effective than any other treatment.
It is still a very low number tho.
Most addicts die addicts. The only question is whether you can get any
productivity out of them at all.

Once and addict, always an addict. A recovering addict never uses the
past tense.

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

In article ,
says...

On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 12:12:24 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:


Has anyone had any better success with drug addiction?


The 12-Step programs are self-help and reassurance programs, they are
not the sort of "therapy" many addicts need. That therapy incorporates
traditional therapy, whether individual or group, and in many cases,
prescription therapy. If a drug addict goes cold turkey by
himself/herself and right into some 12-step program, the addict has a
good chance of falling over and dying.

The religious underpinnings and overlay of 12-step programs are
off-putting for many addicts. A lot of people simply don't want religion
shoved down their throats.


Conventional therapy is substituting one drug for another.

That's only one form.

Is Methadone really that much better than Heroin?
I understand drug companies make the money not drug smugglers but the
drug is about the same.

Tax revenue!

Religion based programs do have the advantage that they are
substituting a belief for a drug but I guess you think that is as bad.

I do agree it is not the kind of thing that will be successful if it
is just a sentence from a court. They have to believe it will work or
it won't work. The reality is these things don't really work anyway
until the addict decides they don't want to be addicted anymore.
For some, there is no "bottom" that is low enough to do that.

Maybe we should just have drug zones and let them kill themselves.
Free drugs, all you want anytime you want them and come in every
morning with a Bobcat to pick up the bodies.

Bobcats don't eat that much.... (Humor, come on!!!)

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

On 8/28/13 3:50 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 13:17:52 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 8/28/13 1:08 PM, wrote:


Conventional therapy is substituting one drug for another.
Is Methadone really that much better than Heroin?
I understand drug companies make the money not drug smugglers but the
drug is about the same.

Religion based programs do have the advantage that they are
substituting a belief for a drug but I guess you think that is as bad.

I do agree it is not the kind of thing that will be successful if it
is just a sentence from a court. They have to believe it will work or
it won't work. The reality is these things don't really work anyway
until the addict decides they don't want to be addicted anymore.
For some, there is no "bottom" that is low enough to do that.

Maybe we should just have drug zones and let them kill themselves.
Free drugs, all you want anytime you want them and come in every
morning with a Bobcat to pick up the bodies.


There are many types of what you call "conventional" therapy. The
12-step programs are not really therapy; they are support mechanisms.

And, once again, if you are an addict on serious **** like heroin, and
you stop cold turkey without using a prescribed substitute under careful
watch, you might die while trying to get clean.

Most of these people continue to use when they are in the 12 step
program

Really? What stat base are you using for that claim?


And, no, I don't believe "faith healing" is the antidote for physical or
mental/emotional illnesses. God didn't make you sick and god isn't going
to cure you.


This isn't "healing" it is simply substituting faith for drugs.
It works for some people and I would not deny them the opportunity.
I agree with you, this should not be court ordered, per se but it
should be an option in court ordered rehab.

Rehab, any kind, is generally ineffective over the long haul.
People either decide to stop or they don't but you can't make them if
they don't want to.


Right, so let's not even try, right?

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

In article ,
says...

On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 13:24:37 -0400, iBoaterer
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 12:12:24 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:


Has anyone had any better success with drug addiction?


The 12-Step programs are self-help and reassurance programs, they are
not the sort of "therapy" many addicts need. That therapy incorporates
traditional therapy, whether individual or group, and in many cases,
prescription therapy. If a drug addict goes cold turkey by
himself/herself and right into some 12-step program, the addict has a
good chance of falling over and dying.

The religious underpinnings and overlay of 12-step programs are
off-putting for many addicts. A lot of people simply don't want religion
shoved down their throats.


Conventional therapy is substituting one drug for another.

That's only one form.

Is Methadone really that much better than Heroin?
I understand drug companies make the money not drug smugglers but the
drug is about the same.

Tax revenue!

Religion based programs do have the advantage that they are
substituting a belief for a drug but I guess you think that is as bad.

I do agree it is not the kind of thing that will be successful if it
is just a sentence from a court. They have to believe it will work or
it won't work. The reality is these things don't really work anyway
until the addict decides they don't want to be addicted anymore.
For some, there is no "bottom" that is low enough to do that.

Maybe we should just have drug zones and let them kill themselves.
Free drugs, all you want anytime you want them and come in every
morning with a Bobcat to pick up the bodies.

Bobcats don't eat that much.... (Humor, come on!!!)


We may not have much to argue about here.

I am guessing you have had some addicts in your close circle and you
have hit the wall more times than you want to admit, trying to help
them.

Me too.

Yes, I have.

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

On 8/28/13 4:16 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 15:58:34 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:



Rehab, any kind, is generally ineffective over the long haul.
People either decide to stop or they don't but you can't make them if
they don't want to.


Right, so let's not even try, right?



The question is "how many times"?

The guy next door to me has been to rehab about 10 times, at tax payer
expense and it has not made a lick of difference. He calls it "going
to the spa"
This is the same guy who has been "Baker acted" about a dozen times
(involuntary assessment for "up to 72 hours")
He has that down to about 4 hours because he knows what to say.

They tried jail the last time and he was supposed to be locked up for
a while but I still see him walking around. (if you can call that
shuffling stumble "walking")

I tried to help for years but I gave up on him 3 arrests ago.
This guy can really tell a story and make you believe he wants to get
better but once a junkie, always a junkie.



Well, we all know that your years of experience with the addict next
door plus, of course, your years of experience treating addicts of all
varieties plus your educational background plus your years of
supervision give you the wherewithal to make black or white
pronouncements about the efficacy of all manner of treatment for all
manner of addicts.

There's no question that successfully treating substance abuse is not an
easy task, and that a high percentage of addicts fall back into their
bad habits. But that doesn't mean we should give up on addicts and
addiction treatment.

Oh, and "once a junkie, always a junkie" is hyperbolic bull****.

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

On 8/28/13 5:11 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 16:58:47 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 8/28/13 4:16 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 15:58:34 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:



Rehab, any kind, is generally ineffective over the long haul.
People either decide to stop or they don't but you can't make them if
they don't want to.


Right, so let's not even try, right?



The question is "how many times"?

The guy next door to me has been to rehab about 10 times, at tax payer
expense and it has not made a lick of difference. He calls it "going
to the spa"
This is the same guy who has been "Baker acted" about a dozen times
(involuntary assessment for "up to 72 hours")
He has that down to about 4 hours because he knows what to say.

They tried jail the last time and he was supposed to be locked up for
a while but I still see him walking around. (if you can call that
shuffling stumble "walking")

I tried to help for years but I gave up on him 3 arrests ago.
This guy can really tell a story and make you believe he wants to get
better but once a junkie, always a junkie.



Well, we all know that your years of experience with the addict next
door plus, of course, your years of experience treating addicts of all
varieties plus your educational background plus your years of
supervision give you the wherewithal to make black or white
pronouncements about the efficacy of all manner of treatment for all
manner of addicts.

There's no question that successfully treating substance abuse is not an
easy task, and that a high percentage of addicts fall back into their
bad habits. But that doesn't mean we should give up on addicts and
addiction treatment.

Oh, and "once a junkie, always a junkie" is hyperbolic bull****.

How many do you know?
How many were cured?

The guy next door is just a good example of lots of experience I have
with a number of these people.
Maybe it is just because I don't live in that rarified air of academia
you live in.
Addicts there are more deeply closeted and hidden from view by
families rich enough to keep them under wraps.


You may have "experienced" relationships of some sort with a limited
number of addicts, but you have no professional education, experience,
or credentials in addiction or its treatment, nor are you considered any
sort of expert in the field. You have a few anecdotes.

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

On 8/28/2013 5:11 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 16:58:47 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 8/28/13 4:16 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 15:58:34 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:



Rehab, any kind, is generally ineffective over the long haul.
People either decide to stop or they don't but you can't make them if
they don't want to.


Right, so let's not even try, right?



The question is "how many times"?

The guy next door to me has been to rehab about 10 times, at tax payer
expense and it has not made a lick of difference. He calls it "going
to the spa"
This is the same guy who has been "Baker acted" about a dozen times
(involuntary assessment for "up to 72 hours")
He has that down to about 4 hours because he knows what to say.

They tried jail the last time and he was supposed to be locked up for
a while but I still see him walking around. (if you can call that
shuffling stumble "walking")

I tried to help for years but I gave up on him 3 arrests ago.
This guy can really tell a story and make you believe he wants to get
better but once a junkie, always a junkie.



Well, we all know that your years of experience with the addict next
door plus, of course, your years of experience treating addicts of all
varieties plus your educational background plus your years of
supervision give you the wherewithal to make black or white
pronouncements about the efficacy of all manner of treatment for all
manner of addicts.

There's no question that successfully treating substance abuse is not an
easy task, and that a high percentage of addicts fall back into their
bad habits. But that doesn't mean we should give up on addicts and
addiction treatment.

Oh, and "once a junkie, always a junkie" is hyperbolic bull****.

How many do you know?
How many were cured?

The guy next door is just a good example of lots of experience I have
with a number of these people.
Maybe it is just because I don't live in that rarified air of academia
you live in.
Addicts there are more deeply closeted and hidden from view by
families rich enough to keep them under wraps.


I have known lots of junkies, ran into a bunch over the last twenty
years in Essex area... I really can't think of one who has successfully
kicked yet. In fact, I can't think of one that isn't on a downward
spiral with maybe some slow decent periods, but still all in all, on the
way down...

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

On 8/28/13 5:24 PM, JustWaitAFrekinMinute wrote:
On 8/28/2013 5:11 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 16:58:47 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 8/28/13 4:16 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 15:58:34 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:



Rehab, any kind, is generally ineffective over the long haul.
People either decide to stop or they don't but you can't make them if
they don't want to.


Right, so let's not even try, right?



The question is "how many times"?

The guy next door to me has been to rehab about 10 times, at tax payer
expense and it has not made a lick of difference. He calls it "going
to the spa"
This is the same guy who has been "Baker acted" about a dozen times
(involuntary assessment for "up to 72 hours")
He has that down to about 4 hours because he knows what to say.

They tried jail the last time and he was supposed to be locked up for
a while but I still see him walking around. (if you can call that
shuffling stumble "walking")

I tried to help for years but I gave up on him 3 arrests ago.
This guy can really tell a story and make you believe he wants to get
better but once a junkie, always a junkie.



Well, we all know that your years of experience with the addict next
door plus, of course, your years of experience treating addicts of all
varieties plus your educational background plus your years of
supervision give you the wherewithal to make black or white
pronouncements about the efficacy of all manner of treatment for all
manner of addicts.

There's no question that successfully treating substance abuse is not an
easy task, and that a high percentage of addicts fall back into their
bad habits. But that doesn't mean we should give up on addicts and
addiction treatment.

Oh, and "once a junkie, always a junkie" is hyperbolic bull****.

How many do you know?
How many were cured?

The guy next door is just a good example of lots of experience I have
with a number of these people.
Maybe it is just because I don't live in that rarified air of academia
you live in.
Addicts there are more deeply closeted and hidden from view by
families rich enough to keep them under wraps.


I have known lots of junkies, ran into a bunch over the last twenty
years in Essex area... I really can't think of one who has successfully
kicked yet. In fact, I can't think of one that isn't on a downward
spiral with maybe some slow decent periods, but still all in all, on the
way down...


Indeed, I am sure you and your gang of fellow junkies are on the way down.

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

wrote in message ...

On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 15:58:34 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:



Rehab, any kind, is generally ineffective over the long haul.
People either decide to stop or they don't but you can't make them
if
they don't want to.


Right, so let's not even try, right?



The question is "how many times"?

The guy next door to me has been to rehab about 10 times, at tax payer
expense and it has not made a lick of difference. He calls it "going
to the spa"
This is the same guy who has been "Baker acted" about a dozen times
(involuntary assessment for "up to 72 hours")
He has that down to about 4 hours because he knows what to say.

They tried jail the last time and he was supposed to be locked up for
a while but I still see him walking around. (if you can call that
shuffling stumble "walking")

I tried to help for years but I gave up on him 3 arrests ago.
This guy can really tell a story and make you believe he wants to get
better but once a junkie, always a junkie.

----------------------------------

Yesterday I ran into a guy I know but had not seen in about a year.
He's an alcoholic and drug abuser. It culminated in a boating
accident where he was found partially responsible in another person's
death due to operating a boat while intoxicated. He didn't serve any
jail time but entered rehab. I've seen him off an on since and he
had remained totally sober. Until 3 months ago. After seven years
of not drinking, he was at a party and someone started making Mimosas.
All it took was one and he's back to drinking again. Sad.

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

On 8/28/13 5:35 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 17:23:40 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 8/28/13 5:11 PM, wrote:

How many do you know?
How many were cured?

The guy next door is just a good example of lots of experience I have
with a number of these people.
Maybe it is just because I don't live in that rarified air of academia
you live in.
Addicts there are more deeply closeted and hidden from view by
families rich enough to keep them under wraps.


You may have "experienced" relationships of some sort with a limited
number of addicts, but you have no professional education, experience,
or credentials in addiction or its treatment, nor are you considered any
sort of expert in the field. You have a few anecdotes.



OK your turn. Show me some peer reviewed studies about the 10 year
success of "rehab".


I'm sure you can do your own lit search. Have at it.

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 21:33:33 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

(CN) - An avowed atheist who was jailed for refusing to participate in
a 12-step treatment program deserves a new trial of his civil rights
claims, the 9th Circuit ruled.

Herr Krause should be outraged by this but, I doubt he will be.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion..._sip_of_water_
7zwT2vBrUGqhDzasfQxkKK

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

On Wednesday, August 28, 2013 5:46:52 PM UTC-4, BAR wrote:


Herr Krause should be outraged by this but, I doubt he will be.



http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion..._sip_of_water_

7zwT2vBrUGqhDzasfQxkKK

Herr Krause hasn't come "out " yet......

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

On Wednesday, August 28, 2013 11:12:24 AM UTC-5, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 8/28/13 11:22 AM, wrote:

On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 21:33:33 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:



(CN) - An avowed atheist who was jailed for refusing to participate in

a 12-step treatment program deserves a new trial of his civil rights

claims, the 9th Circuit ruled.

Barry Hazle sued his parole officer, several California

corrections officials and Westcare Corp. after they revoked his

probation for a drug conviction because of his "congenial" refusal to

recognize a higher power, as the 12-step recovery method requires.

Hazle said he told officials several times about his atheism and

reluctance to participate in religious treatment programs after pleading

no-contest in 2006 to possession of methamphetamine. Nonetheless, in

2007 he was paroled to a 90-day residential program that offered only

the 12 Steps, many of which call for explicit acceptance of God.

When he refused to participate, staff reported Hazle to his parole

officer, saying that he was being "disruptive, though in a congenial

way, to the staff as well as other students," according to the ruling.

Hazle then found himself back in prison for another 100 days.

His federal civil rights action sought damages for false

imprisonment, among other things. U.S. District Judge Garland Burrell in

San Francisco found the defendants were indeed liable for depriving

Hazle of his First Amendment rights and turned the issue over to a jury

to determine the amount of damages.

The jury awarded zero damages.

Hazle shot back with a motion for a new trial, but was denied. A

three-judge panel of the 9th Circuit reversed Friday, finding that Hazle

was entitled to something.

"The district judge's finding of liability establishes that Hazle

suffered actual injury when he was unconstitutionally incarcerated,"

Judge Stephen Reinhardt wrote for the court. "Given this undisputed

finding that Hazle's constitutional rights were violated, and applying

the rule that the award of compensatory damages is mandatory when the

existence of actual injury is beyond dispute, we hold that the district

judge erred in refusing to hold that Hazle was, as a matter of law,

entitled to compensatory damages. We therefore reverse the district

judge's denial of Hazle's motion for a new trial."



http://tinyurl.com/p4pmh65



- - -



Ahh, the religious.



Has anyone had any better success with drug addiction?





The 12-Step programs are self-help and reassurance programs, they are

not the sort of "therapy" many addicts need. That therapy incorporates

traditional therapy, whether individual or group, and in many cases,

prescription therapy. If a drug addict goes cold turkey by

himself/herself and right into some 12-step program, the addict has a

good chance of falling over and dying.



The religious underpinnings and overlay of 12-step programs are

off-putting for many addicts. A lot of people simply don't want religion

shoved down their throats.

"
The religious underpinnings and overlay of 12-step programs are
off-putting for many addicts. "

There's a lot of substance/alcohol abusers who while in the `12-step' programs , follow the religious overtones closely.

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

"Tim" wrote in message
...

On Wednesday, August 28, 2013 11:12:24 AM UTC-5, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 8/28/13 11:22 AM, wrote:

The religious underpinnings and overlay of 12-step programs are
off-putting for many addicts. A lot of people simply don't want
religion
shoved down their throats.


There's a lot of substance/alcohol abusers who while in the `12-step'
programs , follow the religious overtones closely.

---------------------

Last year when I was involved with a family member's rehab and first
steps with recovery I got a copy of the "Big Book" to read what the
12 step thing was all about. I had never heard of the "Big Book" and
had only heard about the "12 step program" in the form of jokes. I
had no clue what they actually were. Pretty naïve I guess for a guy
my age.

I confess that I didn't read the Big Book cover to cover, but I read
enough to get the history, ideas and concepts. I didn't think it
overly pushes religion at all, and certainly doesn't push any
particular theology. I got the it really doesn't care what you
believe in as long as you acknowledge that there are bigger things in
the universe than yourselves.

I was also fortunate to have several people who I had met (mostly
through the guitar shop) who confided their status as recovering
addicts to me. Prior to that I had no idea. They helped me and my
wife deal with my family member's addiction and explained their
respective adaptations of and implementation of the 12 step program as
it applied to them . Some took it more literally than others, but
it seemed to benefit them all.

I certainly don't think it "shoves" religion down anyone's throats.

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

On 8/28/2013 9:31 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:


"Tim" wrote in message
...

On Wednesday, August 28, 2013 11:12:24 AM UTC-5, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 8/28/13 11:22 AM, wrote:

The religious underpinnings and overlay of 12-step programs are
off-putting for many addicts. A lot of people simply don't want religion
shoved down their throats.


There's a lot of substance/alcohol abusers who while in the `12-step'
programs , follow the religious overtones closely.

---------------------

Last year when I was involved with a family member's rehab and first
steps with recovery I got a copy of the "Big Book" to read what the 12
step thing was all about. I had never heard of the "Big Book" and had
only heard about the "12 step program" in the form of jokes. I had no
clue what they actually were. Pretty naïve I guess for a guy my age.

I confess that I didn't read the Big Book cover to cover, but I read
enough to get the history, ideas and concepts. I didn't think it
overly pushes religion at all, and certainly doesn't push any particular
theology. I got the it really doesn't care what you believe in as long
as you acknowledge that there are bigger things in the universe than
yourselves.

I was also fortunate to have several people who I had met (mostly
through the guitar shop) who confided their status as recovering addicts
to me. Prior to that I had no idea. They helped me and my wife deal
with my family member's addiction and explained their respective
adaptations of and implementation of the 12 step program as it applied
to them . Some took it more literally than others, but it seemed to
benefit them all.

I certainly don't think it "shoves" religion down anyone's throats.




It certainly trumps any treatment Harry has offered up.
?
?
What's the weather forecast for your 20 early Thursday PM?

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

"Hank©" wrote in message
eb.com...


What's the weather forecast for your 20 early Thursday PM?

---------------------------------------

Tomorrow - Cloudy skies early, followed by partial clearing. High 72F
.. Winds NNE at 10 to 15 mph .

Alerts for heavy fog in most areas from early am through mid day, but
then clearing up.

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

On 8/28/2013 10:01 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:


"Hank©" wrote in message
eb.com...


What's the weather forecast for your 20 early Thursday PM?

---------------------------------------

Tomorrow - Cloudy skies early, followed by partial clearing. High 72F .
Winds NNE at 10 to 15 mph .

Alerts for heavy fog in most areas from early am through mid day, but
then clearing up.

Cool

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

On 8/28/2013 9:31 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:


"Tim" wrote in message
...

On Wednesday, August 28, 2013 11:12:24 AM UTC-5, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 8/28/13 11:22 AM, wrote:

The religious underpinnings and overlay of 12-step programs are
off-putting for many addicts. A lot of people simply don't want religion
shoved down their throats.


There's a lot of substance/alcohol abusers who while in the `12-step'
programs , follow the religious overtones closely.

---------------------

Last year when I was involved with a family member's rehab and first
steps with recovery I got a copy of the "Big Book" to read what the 12
step thing was all about. I had never heard of the "Big Book" and had
only heard about the "12 step program" in the form of jokes. I had no
clue what they actually were. Pretty naïve I guess for a guy my age.

I confess that I didn't read the Big Book cover to cover, but I read
enough to get the history, ideas and concepts. I didn't think it
overly pushes religion at all, and certainly doesn't push any particular
theology. I got the it really doesn't care what you believe in as long
as you acknowledge that there are bigger things in the universe than
yourselves.

I was also fortunate to have several people who I had met (mostly
through the guitar shop) who confided their status as recovering addicts
to me. Prior to that I had no idea. They helped me and my wife deal
with my family member's addiction and explained their respective
adaptations of and implementation of the 12 step program as it applied
to them . Some took it more literally than others, but it seemed to
benefit them all.

I certainly don't think it "shoves" religion down anyone's throats.





A close friend is in Recovery for about ten years now... Cleaned up just
about the time his parents sold their farm and gave all of the kids a
million each. He has spent it running a recovery home and program for
addicts now for almost ten years... Heroin and the Oxy drugs are the
worst... they just never, ever let go. Met a couple guys a week or so
back, my age, work with riders. Pin holes for pupils, I hate it...

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

On Wednesday, August 28, 2013 8:31:08 PM UTC-5, Mr. Luddite wrote:

I didn't think it

overly pushes religion at all, and certainly doesn't push any

particular theology. I got the it really doesn't care what you

believe in as long as you acknowledge that there are bigger things in

the universe than yourselves.


Exactly right, Rich. But it seems that to Harry that *IS* religion"



I certainly don't think it "shoves" religion down anyone's throats.

It doesn't of course- that is, unless you believe it does...

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

On Wednesday, August 28, 2013 9:03:29 PM UTC-5, Hank© wrote:
On 8/28/2013 10:01 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:





"Hank©" wrote in message

eb.com...





What's the weather forecast for your 20 early Thursday PM?



---------------------------------------



Tomorrow - Cloudy skies early, followed by partial clearing. High 72F ..

Winds NNE at 10 to 15 mph .



Alerts for heavy fog in most areas from early am through mid day, but

then clearing up.



Cool

Cool? I wish it was here in the Midwest again. Tommorow another high 90's day. It's presently 82f. outside at 9:50 pm CST.

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 21:31:08 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

I got the it really doesn't care what you
believe in as long as you acknowledge that there are bigger things in
the universe than yourselves.

===

That's an important first step. Literally, the more we learn about
the universe, the stranger it becomes. It is doubtful to me that we
will ever understand the whole enchilada since new layers of the onion
always seem to appear as the old ones are peeled away. Some choose to
explain it with science, others with religion. In the end it may not
make any difference but I lean towards science.

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

On 8/28/2013 11:28 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 21:31:08 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

I got the it really doesn't care what you
believe in as long as you acknowledge that there are bigger things in
the universe than yourselves.

===

That's an important first step. Literally, the more we learn about
the universe, the stranger it becomes. It is doubtful to me that we
will ever understand the whole enchilada since new layers of the onion
always seem to appear as the old ones are peeled away. Some choose to
explain it with science, others with religion. In the end it may not
make any difference but I lean towards science.


Ha, I believe God *is* a Scientist... of sorts.... chew on that:)

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

On 8/28/13 5:35 PM, wrote:


I have not found any reliable study that says any significant number
of substance abusers come out of rehab, therapy or any or any other
program with a 10 year success rate. There are a few people selling
rehab who say they have amazing success rates but they are selling
something, not doing research.


-------------------------------

Unfortunately I think you are correct. I did a lot of research on
this subject a year ago when we were funding the cost of private rehab
for someone.
As he neared the end of the actual rehab program the facility started
really pushing the sober house phase which they also happened to
offer.
By that time I was armed to the teeth with current statistical data on
long term success rates of the overall programs and got into a fairly
heated debate with one of the facility administrators. I realized
she was just doing her job but I felt she was over emphasizing their
claims of success rates.
I've forgotten the exact numbers but the long term success rate is
dismally low.

We ended up doing something else to help get him through the next 6
months of supervised "existence" while he pulled his life back
together.
So far, so good, but I am not fooling myself into thinking he is
"cured". Might be, but statistically the chances are low. One thing
that definitely helps (I think) is his continued participation in
meetings and willingness to openly discuss his addiction/recovery.

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

On 8/28/13 11:57 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 17:40:56 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 8/28/13 5:35 PM, wrote:

OK your turn. Show me some peer reviewed studies about the 10 year
success of "rehab".


I'm sure you can do your own lit search. Have at it.

I have not found any reliable study that says any significant number
of substance abusers come out of rehab, therapy or any or any other
program with a 10 year success rate. There are a few people selling
rehab who say they have amazing success rates but they are selling
something, not doing research.

It was your contention I was wrong. Prove it.

I would accept 25% as a win for you if it was a real study that
actually tracked patients for any significant amount of time.
(not just people who stopped coming back)

I only have to look at the half million or more addicted homeless to
see all is not going well in paradise. That does not include those dis
functionals who are living with friends or family.

Then you have the addicts who are working at some level of
functionality and the high functioning addicts.




Once again, you are exhibiting an inability to think abstractly. Drug
addiction is not an illness like, oh, the usual childhood diseases that
can be prevented by an inoculation or that caught once, tend not to
haunt you again. Drug addiction treatment, once administered, does not
mean the individual who receives it has lifetime or even 10-year
protection from a relapse.

Drug addiction is a chronic disease, and it can be managed properly and
successfully. But relapses are more than possible, as they are with
other chronic medical illnesses, such as asthma or hypertension. And
because there are strong possibilities of relapses with drug addiction
doesn't mean treatment is a failure. As with other chronic illnesses,
treatment for drug addiction necessitates lifetime evaluation and
perhaps modifications when necessary. If you suffer from diabetes,
proper treatment can help you get it under control and most of the
symptoms will disappear, and the treatment is successful.

What happens if you discontinue treatment for your chronic disease? It
probably returns and you have a relapse. When a drug addict relapses, it
doesn't necessarily mean the treatment he is receiving (or ignoring) has
failed. It may just mean the treatment needs to be re-started or changed.

Many people with certain mental/emotional illnesses get relief with a
combination of medications and therapy that help them feel better and
regain control of their lives. Some of those illnesses will require
patients to take medications for the rest of their lives. After a while
on meds, though, some patients talk themselves into believing they are
"cured," so they stop the medications. So, what happens? In many cases
the symptoms of the mental/emotional illness returns.

Oh, and once again, 12-step programs are not treatment…they provide support.

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

In article ,
says...

On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 13:24:37 -0400, iBoaterer
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 12:12:24 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:


Has anyone had any better success with drug addiction?


The 12-Step programs are self-help and reassurance programs, they are
not the sort of "therapy" many addicts need. That therapy incorporates
traditional therapy, whether individual or group, and in many cases,
prescription therapy. If a drug addict goes cold turkey by
himself/herself and right into some 12-step program, the addict has a
good chance of falling over and dying.

The religious underpinnings and overlay of 12-step programs are
off-putting for many addicts. A lot of people simply don't want religion
shoved down their throats.


Conventional therapy is substituting one drug for another.

That's only one form.

Is Methadone really that much better than Heroin?
I understand drug companies make the money not drug smugglers but the
drug is about the same.

Tax revenue!

Religion based programs do have the advantage that they are
substituting a belief for a drug but I guess you think that is as bad.

I do agree it is not the kind of thing that will be successful if it
is just a sentence from a court. They have to believe it will work or
it won't work. The reality is these things don't really work anyway
until the addict decides they don't want to be addicted anymore.
For some, there is no "bottom" that is low enough to do that.

Maybe we should just have drug zones and let them kill themselves.
Free drugs, all you want anytime you want them and come in every
morning with a Bobcat to pick up the bodies.

Bobcats don't eat that much.... (Humor, come on!!!)


We may not have much to argue about here.

I am guessing you have had some addicts in your close circle and you
have hit the wall more times than you want to admit, trying to help
them.

Me too.

And I may add, the assholes that said Oh, if so and so wanted to quit
(insert what drug here) they could! That of course is horse****, I've
watched it with my own eyes.

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

In article ,
says...

On 8/28/13 4:16 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 15:58:34 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:



Rehab, any kind, is generally ineffective over the long haul.
People either decide to stop or they don't but you can't make them if
they don't want to.


Right, so let's not even try, right?



The question is "how many times"?

The guy next door to me has been to rehab about 10 times, at tax payer
expense and it has not made a lick of difference. He calls it "going
to the spa"
This is the same guy who has been "Baker acted" about a dozen times
(involuntary assessment for "up to 72 hours")
He has that down to about 4 hours because he knows what to say.

They tried jail the last time and he was supposed to be locked up for
a while but I still see him walking around. (if you can call that
shuffling stumble "walking")

I tried to help for years but I gave up on him 3 arrests ago.
This guy can really tell a story and make you believe he wants to get
better but once a junkie, always a junkie.



Well, we all know that your years of experience with the addict next
door plus, of course, your years of experience treating addicts of all
varieties plus your educational background plus your years of
supervision give you the wherewithal to make black or white
pronouncements about the efficacy of all manner of treatment for all
manner of addicts.

There's no question that successfully treating substance abuse is not an
easy task, and that a high percentage of addicts fall back into their
bad habits. But that doesn't mean we should give up on addicts and
addiction treatment.

Oh, and "once a junkie, always a junkie" is hyperbolic bull****.

No, it's not.

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

In article ,
says...

On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 16:58:47 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 8/28/13 4:16 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 15:58:34 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:



Rehab, any kind, is generally ineffective over the long haul.
People either decide to stop or they don't but you can't make them if
they don't want to.


Right, so let's not even try, right?



The question is "how many times"?

The guy next door to me has been to rehab about 10 times, at tax payer
expense and it has not made a lick of difference. He calls it "going
to the spa"
This is the same guy who has been "Baker acted" about a dozen times
(involuntary assessment for "up to 72 hours")
He has that down to about 4 hours because he knows what to say.

They tried jail the last time and he was supposed to be locked up for
a while but I still see him walking around. (if you can call that
shuffling stumble "walking")

I tried to help for years but I gave up on him 3 arrests ago.
This guy can really tell a story and make you believe he wants to get
better but once a junkie, always a junkie.



Well, we all know that your years of experience with the addict next
door plus, of course, your years of experience treating addicts of all
varieties plus your educational background plus your years of
supervision give you the wherewithal to make black or white
pronouncements about the efficacy of all manner of treatment for all
manner of addicts.

There's no question that successfully treating substance abuse is not an
easy task, and that a high percentage of addicts fall back into their
bad habits. But that doesn't mean we should give up on addicts and
addiction treatment.

Oh, and "once a junkie, always a junkie" is hyperbolic bull****.

How many do you know?
How many were cured?

The guy next door is just a good example of lots of experience I have
with a number of these people.
Maybe it is just because I don't live in that rarified air of academia
you live in.
Addicts there are more deeply closeted and hidden from view by
families rich enough to keep them under wraps.

One of the TWO persons I intimately dealt with for substance abuse damn
near died, I didn't even know that person was as bad as he was. When I
talked to a REAL psychiatrist, he said you know, addicts are the
sneakiest people there are. It amazes me how much they really know about
the art of hiding their problem. That's true!!

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

In article , says...

On 8/28/13 5:11 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 16:58:47 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 8/28/13 4:16 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 15:58:34 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:



Rehab, any kind, is generally ineffective over the long haul.
People either decide to stop or they don't but you can't make them if
they don't want to.


Right, so let's not even try, right?



The question is "how many times"?

The guy next door to me has been to rehab about 10 times, at tax payer
expense and it has not made a lick of difference. He calls it "going
to the spa"
This is the same guy who has been "Baker acted" about a dozen times
(involuntary assessment for "up to 72 hours")
He has that down to about 4 hours because he knows what to say.

They tried jail the last time and he was supposed to be locked up for
a while but I still see him walking around. (if you can call that
shuffling stumble "walking")

I tried to help for years but I gave up on him 3 arrests ago.
This guy can really tell a story and make you believe he wants to get
better but once a junkie, always a junkie.



Well, we all know that your years of experience with the addict next
door plus, of course, your years of experience treating addicts of all
varieties plus your educational background plus your years of
supervision give you the wherewithal to make black or white
pronouncements about the efficacy of all manner of treatment for all
manner of addicts.

There's no question that successfully treating substance abuse is not an
easy task, and that a high percentage of addicts fall back into their
bad habits. But that doesn't mean we should give up on addicts and
addiction treatment.

Oh, and "once a junkie, always a junkie" is hyperbolic bull****.

How many do you know?
How many were cured?

The guy next door is just a good example of lots of experience I have
with a number of these people.
Maybe it is just because I don't live in that rarified air of academia
you live in.
Addicts there are more deeply closeted and hidden from view by
families rich enough to keep them under wraps.


You may have "experienced" relationships of some sort with a limited
number of addicts, but you have no professional education, experience,
or credentials in addiction or its treatment, nor are you considered any
sort of expert in the field. You have a few anecdotes.

And you DO???

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

In article ,
says...

On 8/28/13 5:35 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 17:23:40 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 8/28/13 5:11 PM, wrote:

How many do you know?
How many were cured?

The guy next door is just a good example of lots of experience I have
with a number of these people.
Maybe it is just because I don't live in that rarified air of academia
you live in.
Addicts there are more deeply closeted and hidden from view by
families rich enough to keep them under wraps.


You may have "experienced" relationships of some sort with a limited
number of addicts, but you have no professional education, experience,
or credentials in addiction or its treatment, nor are you considered any
sort of expert in the field. You have a few anecdotes.



OK your turn. Show me some peer reviewed studies about the 10 year
success of "rehab".


I'm sure you can do your own lit search. Have at it.

snerk

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

In article ,
says...

On 8/28/13 11:57 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 17:40:56 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 8/28/13 5:35 PM, wrote:

OK your turn. Show me some peer reviewed studies about the 10 year
success of "rehab".


I'm sure you can do your own lit search. Have at it.

I have not found any reliable study that says any significant number
of substance abusers come out of rehab, therapy or any or any other
program with a 10 year success rate. There are a few people selling
rehab who say they have amazing success rates but they are selling
something, not doing research.

It was your contention I was wrong. Prove it.

I would accept 25% as a win for you if it was a real study that
actually tracked patients for any significant amount of time.
(not just people who stopped coming back)

I only have to look at the half million or more addicted homeless to
see all is not going well in paradise. That does not include those dis
functionals who are living with friends or family.

Then you have the addicts who are working at some level of
functionality and the high functioning addicts.




Once again, you are exhibiting an inability to think abstractly. Drug
addiction is not an illness like, oh, the usual childhood diseases that
can be prevented by an inoculation or that caught once, tend not to
haunt you again. Drug addiction treatment, once administered, does not
mean the individual who receives it has lifetime or even 10-year
protection from a relapse.

Drug addiction is a chronic disease, and it can be managed properly and
successfully. But relapses are more than possible, as they are with
other chronic medical illnesses, such as asthma or hypertension. And
because there are strong possibilities of relapses with drug addiction
doesn't mean treatment is a failure. As with other chronic illnesses,
treatment for drug addiction necessitates lifetime evaluation and
perhaps modifications when necessary. If you suffer from diabetes,
proper treatment can help you get it under control and most of the
symptoms will disappear, and the treatment is successful.

What happens if you discontinue treatment for your chronic disease? It
probably returns and you have a relapse. When a drug addict relapses, it
doesn't necessarily mean the treatment he is receiving (or ignoring) has
failed. It may just mean the treatment needs to be re-started or changed.

Many people with certain mental/emotional illnesses get relief with a
combination of medications and therapy that help them feel better and
regain control of their lives. Some of those illnesses will require
patients to take medications for the rest of their lives. After a while
on meds, though, some patients talk themselves into believing they are
"cured," so they stop the medications. So, what happens? In many cases
the symptoms of the mental/emotional illness returns.

Oh, and once again, 12-step programs are not treatment?they provide support.

Wait!!!! YOU said that once an addict always an addict was hyperbole.
Now you are saying it's a "chronic disease that can be managed..." Which
is it?

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

In article ,
says...

wrote in message ...

On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 15:58:34 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:



Rehab, any kind, is generally ineffective over the long haul.
People either decide to stop or they don't but you can't make them
if
they don't want to.


Right, so let's not even try, right?



The question is "how many times"?

The guy next door to me has been to rehab about 10 times, at tax payer
expense and it has not made a lick of difference. He calls it "going
to the spa"
This is the same guy who has been "Baker acted" about a dozen times
(involuntary assessment for "up to 72 hours")
He has that down to about 4 hours because he knows what to say.

They tried jail the last time and he was supposed to be locked up for
a while but I still see him walking around. (if you can call that
shuffling stumble "walking")

I tried to help for years but I gave up on him 3 arrests ago.
This guy can really tell a story and make you believe he wants to get
better but once a junkie, always a junkie.

----------------------------------

Yesterday I ran into a guy I know but had not seen in about a year.
He's an alcoholic and drug abuser. It culminated in a boating
accident where he was found partially responsible in another person's
death due to operating a boat while intoxicated. He didn't serve any
jail time but entered rehab. I've seen him off an on since and he
had remained totally sober. Until 3 months ago. After seven years
of not drinking, he was at a party and someone started making Mimosas.
All it took was one and he's back to drinking again. Sad.

And cigarettes are just as bad. Recently I ran into a friend of mine and
he was smoking, he hadn't smoked in at least 10 years. Asked him what
happened, he had a lot of stressful things going on in his life, and
"reached for an old, calming friend".

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

In article ,
says...

On 8/28/2013 11:28 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 21:31:08 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

I got the it really doesn't care what you
believe in as long as you acknowledge that there are bigger things in
the universe than yourselves.

===

That's an important first step. Literally, the more we learn about
the universe, the stranger it becomes. It is doubtful to me that we
will ever understand the whole enchilada since new layers of the onion
always seem to appear as the old ones are peeled away. Some choose to
explain it with science, others with religion. In the end it may not
make any difference but I lean towards science.


Ha, I believe God *is* a Scientist... of sorts.... chew on that:)

What are some of God's scientific breakthroughs?

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

On 8/29/13 8:48 AM, iBoaterer wrote:
In article ,
says...

On 8/28/13 11:57 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 17:40:56 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 8/28/13 5:35 PM, wrote:

OK your turn. Show me some peer reviewed studies about the 10 year
success of "rehab".


I'm sure you can do your own lit search. Have at it.

I have not found any reliable study that says any significant number
of substance abusers come out of rehab, therapy or any or any other
program with a 10 year success rate. There are a few people selling
rehab who say they have amazing success rates but they are selling
something, not doing research.

It was your contention I was wrong. Prove it.

I would accept 25% as a win for you if it was a real study that
actually tracked patients for any significant amount of time.
(not just people who stopped coming back)

I only have to look at the half million or more addicted homeless to
see all is not going well in paradise. That does not include those dis
functionals who are living with friends or family.

Then you have the addicts who are working at some level of
functionality and the high functioning addicts.




Once again, you are exhibiting an inability to think abstractly. Drug
addiction is not an illness like, oh, the usual childhood diseases that
can be prevented by an inoculation or that caught once, tend not to
haunt you again. Drug addiction treatment, once administered, does not
mean the individual who receives it has lifetime or even 10-year
protection from a relapse.

Drug addiction is a chronic disease, and it can be managed properly and
successfully. But relapses are more than possible, as they are with
other chronic medical illnesses, such as asthma or hypertension. And
because there are strong possibilities of relapses with drug addiction
doesn't mean treatment is a failure. As with other chronic illnesses,
treatment for drug addiction necessitates lifetime evaluation and
perhaps modifications when necessary. If you suffer from diabetes,
proper treatment can help you get it under control and most of the
symptoms will disappear, and the treatment is successful.

What happens if you discontinue treatment for your chronic disease? It
probably returns and you have a relapse. When a drug addict relapses, it
doesn't necessarily mean the treatment he is receiving (or ignoring) has
failed. It may just mean the treatment needs to be re-started or changed.

Many people with certain mental/emotional illnesses get relief with a
combination of medications and therapy that help them feel better and
regain control of their lives. Some of those illnesses will require
patients to take medications for the rest of their lives. After a while
on meds, though, some patients talk themselves into believing they are
"cured," so they stop the medications. So, what happens? In many cases
the symptoms of the mental/emotional illness returns.

Oh, and once again, 12-step programs are not treatment?they provide support.

Wait!!!! YOU said that once an addict always an addict was hyperbole.
Now you are saying it's a "chronic disease that can be managed..." Which
is it?



I don't believe calling someone who is having success at controlling a
substance abuse problem a "junkie" adds anything to the discussion.

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 08:52:17 -0400, iBoaterer
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On 8/28/2013 11:28 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 21:31:08 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

I got the it really doesn't care what you
believe in as long as you acknowledge that there are bigger things in
the universe than yourselves.

===

That's an important first step. Literally, the more we learn about
the universe, the stranger it becomes. It is doubtful to me that we
will ever understand the whole enchilada since new layers of the onion
always seem to appear as the old ones are peeled away. Some choose to
explain it with science, others with religion. In the end it may not
make any difference but I lean towards science.


Ha, I believe God *is* a Scientist... of sorts.... chew on that:)

What are some of God's scientific breakthroughs?

===

There are so few people that truly understand the mathematics and
physics of modern cosmology that they really constitute a priesthood
of sorts.

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

In article , says...

On 8/28/13 11:57 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 17:40:56 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 8/28/13 5:35 PM, wrote:

OK your turn. Show me some peer reviewed studies about the 10 year
success of "rehab".


I'm sure you can do your own lit search. Have at it.

I have not found any reliable study that says any significant number
of substance abusers come out of rehab, therapy or any or any other
program with a 10 year success rate. There are a few people selling
rehab who say they have amazing success rates but they are selling
something, not doing research.

It was your contention I was wrong. Prove it.

I would accept 25% as a win for you if it was a real study that
actually tracked patients for any significant amount of time.
(not just people who stopped coming back)

I only have to look at the half million or more addicted homeless to
see all is not going well in paradise. That does not include those dis
functionals who are living with friends or family.

Then you have the addicts who are working at some level of
functionality and the high functioning addicts.




Once again, you are exhibiting an inability to think abstractly. Drug
addiction is not an illness like, oh, the usual childhood diseases that
can be prevented by an inoculation or that caught once, tend not to
haunt you again. Drug addiction treatment, once administered, does not
mean the individual who receives it has lifetime or even 10-year
protection from a relapse.

Drug addiction is a chronic disease, and it can be managed properly and
successfully. But relapses are more than possible, as they are with
other chronic medical illnesses, such as asthma or hypertension. And
because there are strong possibilities of relapses with drug addiction
doesn't mean treatment is a failure. As with other chronic illnesses,
treatment for drug addiction necessitates lifetime evaluation and
perhaps modifications when necessary. If you suffer from diabetes,
proper treatment can help you get it under control and most of the
symptoms will disappear, and the treatment is successful.

What happens if you discontinue treatment for your chronic disease? It
probably returns and you have a relapse. When a drug addict relapses, it
doesn't necessarily mean the treatment he is receiving (or ignoring) has
failed. It may just mean the treatment needs to be re-started or changed.

Many people with certain mental/emotional illnesses get relief with a
combination of medications and therapy that help them feel better and
regain control of their lives. Some of those illnesses will require
patients to take medications for the rest of their lives. After a while
on meds, though, some patients talk themselves into believing they are
"cured," so they stop the medications. So, what happens? In many cases
the symptoms of the mental/emotional illness returns.

Oh, and once again, 12-step programs are not treatment?they provide support.

The interesting thing is that the 12 step programs have a higher "success" rate than the
institutional or non 12 step programs. I know several people who have been in 12 step
programs and they have been sober for 15 and 20 years. They were never institutionalized,
they never received "professional" help with their addiction. People have to want to change
and forceing them to change or trying to modify their behavior isn't going to succeed.