Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 18:15:33 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

I wonder if Wayne thinks that if government spending for sick people was
cut back, there would be more money to waste on his former bankster
employer when it finds itself on the ropes again.

===

Without the global IT infrastructure that our large banks provide,
electronic payment systems like credit cards, ATMs, funds transfer,
check clearing and international letters of credit would cease
operation within seconds. That would make the great recession into a
global depression in no time at all, not to mention chaos, misery and
social unrest on a massive scale. You should really learn to like the
banks. Someday they might even learn to like you again but that's a
bit of a stretch.

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

On 8/29/2013 5:09 PM, BAR wrote:
In article , says...

On 8/29/13 3:55 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 15:16:40 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 8/29/13 3:11 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 13:23:31 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 8/29/13 1:12 PM, wrote:

I believe that is because of the support component that Harry
dismisses in such a cavalier way.

I don't dismiss support programs for substance abusers. Once again,
apparently, you cannot comprehend what you read. What I did say is that
the religious-osity, as it were, of 12-step programs, is offputting to a
substantial percentage of substance abusers. There is significant
published criticism for various reasons of 12-step programs.


The hard choices an addict needs to make is the main thing that puts
them off. They just use "religious-osity" as one more excuse.


Gee, I'm glad you have so much experience dealing with the huge variety
of substance abusers and therefore feel qualified to state that those
who disdain the 12 steps approach because of religious reasons do so as
an excuse. Obviously, whatever your profession was, you chose
poorly...since you could have been a first-rate therapist.


What is your experience?


I'm married to a first-rate psychotherapist who has seen and
successfully treated a great number of substance abusers in several
settings over her two decades as a licensed practitioner. She sometimes
talks about what works and what doesn't for various folks who remain
anonymous. Her doctoral dissertation was on a significant aspect of
substance abuse, and she has written other papers that also have been
published. She consults with NiMH professionals on substance abuse topics.

Additionally, I've read "the lit" that comes to the house (professional
papers and journals) and I know thought my union work a lot of
construction workers in many trades who at some point in their careers
suffered severe injuries, were prescribed heavy duty meds, got hooked,
and then got clean and stayed clean.

As a result, I wouldn't make the sweeping statements you make about
substance abusers, or that, as you implied, a large number of those who
disdain the 12 step programs because of their religious-osity just do so
so they can remain outside of a therapeutic or support service.

Meaning you have no first hand experience.

My wife is a battery expert, she can build them, analyze them and tell you why they are not
performing well. I am just a battery user.


And then you have to ask yourself if you believe any of what harry
says... Nobody here does, well nobody who thinks for themselves.

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

On 8/29/13 8:08 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 18:15:33 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

I wonder if Wayne thinks that if government spending for sick people was
cut back, there would be more money to waste on his former bankster
employer when it finds itself on the ropes again.

===

Without the global IT infrastructure that our large banks provide,
electronic payment systems like credit cards, ATMs, funds transfer,
check clearing and international letters of credit would cease
operation within seconds. That would make the great recession into a
global depression in no time at all, not to mention chaos, misery and
social unrest on a massive scale. You should really learn to like the
banks. Someday they might even learn to like you again but that's a
bit of a stretch.



Ahhh. Bankster PR bull****.

I have good relationships with a couple of banks and a credit union, to
the point that when I occasionally walk into the lobby of one them, the
branch manager tries to sell me on more services, so she obviously likes
me. I turn her down cordially, because she's eliminated fees for me a
few times on outgoing wire transfers. I've never been in the lobby of
the other bank.

I do like the ability to deposit checks from my home office with my iPhone.

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

On 8/29/13 8:15 PM, JustWaitAFrekinMinute wrote:
On 8/29/2013 5:09 PM, BAR wrote:
In article ,
says...

On 8/29/13 3:55 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 15:16:40 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 8/29/13 3:11 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 13:23:31 -0400, "F.O.A.D."
wrote:

On 8/29/13 1:12 PM, wrote:

I believe that is because of the support component that Harry
dismisses in such a cavalier way.

I don't dismiss support programs for substance abusers. Once again,
apparently, you cannot comprehend what you read. What I did say
is that
the religious-osity, as it were, of 12-step programs, is
offputting to a
substantial percentage of substance abusers. There is significant
published criticism for various reasons of 12-step programs.


The hard choices an addict needs to make is the main thing that puts
them off. They just use "religious-osity" as one more excuse.


Gee, I'm glad you have so much experience dealing with the huge
variety
of substance abusers and therefore feel qualified to state that those
who disdain the 12 steps approach because of religious reasons do
so as
an excuse. Obviously, whatever your profession was, you chose
poorly...since you could have been a first-rate therapist.


What is your experience?


I'm married to a first-rate psychotherapist who has seen and
successfully treated a great number of substance abusers in several
settings over her two decades as a licensed practitioner. She sometimes
talks about what works and what doesn't for various folks who remain
anonymous. Her doctoral dissertation was on a significant aspect of
substance abuse, and she has written other papers that also have been
published. She consults with NiMH professionals on substance abuse
topics.

Additionally, I've read "the lit" that comes to the house (professional
papers and journals) and I know thought my union work a lot of
construction workers in many trades who at some point in their careers
suffered severe injuries, were prescribed heavy duty meds, got hooked,
and then got clean and stayed clean.

As a result, I wouldn't make the sweeping statements you make about
substance abusers, or that, as you implied, a large number of those who
disdain the 12 step programs because of their religious-osity just do so
so they can remain outside of a therapeutic or support service.

Meaning you have no first hand experience.

My wife is a battery expert, she can build them, analyze them and tell
you why they are not
performing well. I am just a battery user.


And then you have to ask yourself if you believe any of what harry
says... Nobody here does, well nobody who thinks for themselves.


Ahh, the crazy man re-emerges. How's your blood med level? Lunacy under
control for the moment?

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

In article , says...

On 8/29/13 7:23 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 16:17:49 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

What is your experience?


I'm married to a first-rate psychotherapist who has seen and
successfully treated a great number of substance abusers in several
settings over her two decades as a licensed practitioner. She sometimes
talks about what works and what doesn't for various folks who remain
anonymous. Her doctoral dissertation was on a significant aspect of
substance abuse, and she has written other papers that also have been
published. She consults with NiMH professionals on substance abuse topics.

NIMH and NIH seem to have a paucity of data online about their success
rates. Are you just going to counter my anecdotes with your wife's
anecdotes?


Additionally, I've read "the lit" that comes to the house (professional
papers and journals) and I know thought my union work a lot of
construction workers in many trades who at some point in their careers
suffered severe injuries, were prescribed heavy duty meds, got hooked,
and then got clean and stayed clean.

There is a difference between a person who took a course of pain
killer drugs adjunct to an injury or an operation who was clinically
addicted and someone who simply chose to use drugs and is chronically
addicted.

In spite of that I still refuse pain pills.

As a result, I wouldn't make the sweeping statements you make about
substance abusers, or that, as you implied, a large number of those who
disdain the 12 step programs because of their religious-osity just do so
so they can remain outside of a therapeutic or support service.


They do so because it is largely a volunteer effort without all of the
credentials a medical program requires, yet they still seem to have
similar long term outcomes.

Again, if you can find data, we can read it together.
I looked on the various NIH/CHC and government drug abuse sites for
several hours and "outcome" studies are very rare.


You might have more success with a university search system, a paid or
the LC search system. My wife used all three to gather the papers needed
for her disseration.

My wife has sent people to 12-step programs *after* they have been
through professional detox and therapy programs, and she has talked
about better outcomes for some patients on buprenorphine instead of
methadone, but such is way over my pay grade of understanding.

Yet your wife can prescribe anything.

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 20:17:37 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

I do like the ability to deposit checks from my home office with my iPhone.

===

That transaction is almost certainly being processed in some way
through one of the big NYC banks. They invented the infrastructure
and continue to maintain it.

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 21:23:17 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 20:17:37 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

Without the global IT infrastructure that our large banks provide,
electronic payment systems like credit cards, ATMs, funds transfer,
check clearing and international letters of credit would cease
operation within seconds. That would make the great recession into a
global depression in no time at all, not to mention chaos, misery and
social unrest on a massive scale. You should really learn to like the
banks. Someday they might even learn to like you again but that's a
bit of a stretch.



Ahhh. Bankster PR bull****.

Which part is wrong?

===

Heh, even Harry is smart enough to know that it's all true if he were
to be honest about it.

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

On Thursday, August 29, 2013 7:05:36 AM UTC-4, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 8/28/13 11:57 PM, wrote:

On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 17:40:56 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:



On 8/28/13 5:35 PM, wrote:



OK your turn. Show me some peer reviewed studies about the 10 year

success of "rehab".





I'm sure you can do your own lit search. Have at it.



I have not found any reliable study that says any significant number

of substance abusers come out of rehab, therapy or any or any other

program with a 10 year success rate. There are a few people selling

rehab who say they have amazing success rates but they are selling

something, not doing research.



It was your contention I was wrong. Prove it.



I would accept 25% as a win for you if it was a real study that

actually tracked patients for any significant amount of time.

(not just people who stopped coming back)



I only have to look at the half million or more addicted homeless to

see all is not going well in paradise. That does not include those dis

functionals who are living with friends or family.



Then you have the addicts who are working at some level of

functionality and the high functioning addicts.









Once again, you are exhibiting an inability to think abstractly. Drug

addiction is not an illness like, oh, the usual childhood diseases that

can be prevented by an inoculation or that caught once, tend not to

haunt you again. Drug addiction treatment, once administered, does not

mean the individual who receives it has lifetime or even 10-year

protection from a relapse.



Drug addiction is a chronic disease, and it can be managed properly and

successfully. But relapses are more than possible, as they are with

other chronic medical illnesses, such as asthma or hypertension. And

because there are strong possibilities of relapses with drug addiction

doesn't mean treatment is a failure. As with other chronic illnesses,

treatment for drug addiction necessitates lifetime evaluation and

perhaps modifications when necessary. If you suffer from diabetes,

proper treatment can help you get it under control and most of the

symptoms will disappear, and the treatment is successful.



What happens if you discontinue treatment for your chronic disease? It

probably returns and you have a relapse. When a drug addict relapses, it

doesn't necessarily mean the treatment he is receiving (or ignoring) has

failed. It may just mean the treatment needs to be re-started or changed.



Many people with certain mental/emotional illnesses get relief with a

combination of medications and therapy that help them feel better and

regain control of their lives. Some of those illnesses will require

patients to take medications for the rest of their lives. After a while

on meds, though, some patients talk themselves into believing they are

"cured," so they stop the medications. So, what happens? In many cases

the symptoms of the mental/emotional illness returns.



Oh, and once again, 12-step programs are not treatment…they provide support.

You are an english major, and as such, are not qualifified to make any statements concerning this subject.

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

In article , says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 19:18:57 -0400, John H
wrote:


At some point in the pain pill taking process, the taker knows he's taking the pills for something
other than pain relief. At that point the taker makes a decision to cut down or continue. Yeah, it
can be hard.

John (Gun Nut) H.

Pain management for a one shot procedure should be like a prednisone
pack.
A tapered dose that runs out in a few days.

They both end up making you fatter.

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

On Thursday, August 29, 2013 8:40:13 AM UTC-4, iBoaterer wrote:


And I may add, the assholes that said Oh, if so and so wanted to quit

(insert what drug here) they could! That of course is horse****, I've

watched it with my own eyes.

Obviously when looking in a mirror.

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

On Thursday, August 29, 2013 8:55:14 AM UTC-4, F.O.A.D. wrote:

I don't believe calling someone who is having success at controlling a

substance abuse problem a "junkie" adds anything to the discussion.

Why are you here then, greasy???

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 14:38:46 -0400, iBoaterer
wrote:

In article ,

http://tinyurl.com/6ddknwj

Not a 'Dip**** Test' either.

John (Gun Nut) H.

Wow, I looked the whole thing over and didn't see any mention of a
"God". Could you point that out, please?

The Higgs Boson was not there ;-)

snerk

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 14:42:15 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 09:44:00 -0400, iBoaterer
wrote:

In article ,
says...

The interesting thing is that the 12 step programs have a higher "success" rate than the
institutional or non 12 step programs. I know several people who have been in 12 step
programs and they have been sober for 15 and 20 years. They were never institutionalized,
they never received "professional" help with their addiction. People have to want to change
and forceing them to change or trying to modify their behavior isn't going to succeed.

Cite?

It is going to be hard. I looked at this for about 4 hours last night.
I can find hundreds of articles saying THEIR program works "X"% of the
time (with questionable stats) but it is very hard to find any actual
studies that track the people in a verifiable case study.
Places like CDC and NIH where you would expect this to happen don't
seem to be doing it. The studies where they are actually looking at
particular therapies seen to show pretty dismal results and the
longest term study I saw was that methadone deal. They tried to polish
that turd but the numbers expose the truth. Over half the patients
were using illegal drugs 18 months in, while still in therapy.

12 step, particularly AA, does seem to work as long as the person
stays in the program but a lot of people simply walk away and they
still may fall off the wagon occasionally. The question is whether
they try to get back on.

I have been to a few meetings as a visitor and it is an interesting
process. There is a certain religious component but it is far from the
main driver of the program. They are really trying to say this is YOUR
problem and YOU have to fix it. Then they give you some tools.
They don't seem to care which god you want to use if that is the tool
you decide on.
I think the sponsor relationship might be the best tool.



Some of the biggest AA meetings, believe it or not, happen in prison.
People there are remorseful, and also they get coffee and cigarettes!
So, they go, until they get out, then it's same old same old.

Cite? Or personal experience?

John (Gun Nut) H.

http://tinyurl.com/pxgo9s2
http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-26_AAinCF.pdf
http://tinyurl.com/oqxat2d
http://silkworth.net/bobp/chapter14.html

And yes, personal experience. I relative that I've dealt with on their
attempts at recovery did prison time. Do you have a problem with that,
asshole?

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 14:43:09 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 8/29/13 2:35 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 21:31:08 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:



"Tim" wrote in message
...

On Wednesday, August 28, 2013 11:12:24 AM UTC-5, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 8/28/13 11:22 AM, wrote:

The religious underpinnings and overlay of 12-step programs are
off-putting for many addicts. A lot of people simply don't want
religion
shoved down their throats.


There's a lot of substance/alcohol abusers who while in the `12-step'
programs , follow the religious overtones closely.

---------------------

Last year when I was involved with a family member's rehab and first
steps with recovery I got a copy of the "Big Book" to read what the
12 step thing was all about. I had never heard of the "Big Book" and
had only heard about the "12 step program" in the form of jokes. I
had no clue what they actually were. Pretty naïve I guess for a guy
my age.

I confess that I didn't read the Big Book cover to cover, but I read
enough to get the history, ideas and concepts. I didn't think it
overly pushes religion at all, and certainly doesn't push any
particular theology. I got the it really doesn't care what you
believe in as long as you acknowledge that there are bigger things in
the universe than yourselves.

I was also fortunate to have several people who I had met (mostly
through the guitar shop) who confided their status as recovering
addicts to me. Prior to that I had no idea. They helped me and my
wife deal with my family member's addiction and explained their
respective adaptations of and implementation of the 12 step program as
it applied to them . Some took it more literally than others, but
it seemed to benefit them all.

I certainly don't think it "shoves" religion down anyone's throats.


AA pushes the concept of a 'higher power', which may be different for different folks. The higher
power may be God, for those who believe, or it may be peer pressure from the group, or maybe just a
'big brother'.

One thing is for sure, the success of AA groups does not put a lot of money into the pockets of
psychologists. However, many hospitals for those needing psychological treatment also have an AA
group on the premises. (That is also true for many military hospitals.)

John (Gun Nut) H.

Okay, Bill W.


I wonder if Herring still attends AA meetings.

Whether I did, do, or will - what business is it of yours?

John (Gun Nut) H.

This from the asshole who, when I stated that AA was big in prison
wanted to know if it was "personal experience".....

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

In article ,
says...

On 8/29/13 3:55 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 15:16:40 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 8/29/13 3:11 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 13:23:31 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 8/29/13 1:12 PM, wrote:

I believe that is because of the support component that Harry
dismisses in such a cavalier way.

I don't dismiss support programs for substance abusers. Once again,
apparently, you cannot comprehend what you read. What I did say is that
the religious-osity, as it were, of 12-step programs, is offputting to a
substantial percentage of substance abusers. There is significant
published criticism for various reasons of 12-step programs.


The hard choices an addict needs to make is the main thing that puts
them off. They just use "religious-osity" as one more excuse.


Gee, I'm glad you have so much experience dealing with the huge variety
of substance abusers and therefore feel qualified to state that those
who disdain the 12 steps approach because of religious reasons do so as
an excuse. Obviously, whatever your profession was, you chose
poorly...since you could have been a first-rate therapist.


What is your experience?


I'm married to a first-rate psychotherapist who has seen and
successfully treated a great number of substance abusers in several
settings over her two decades as a licensed practitioner. She sometimes
talks about what works and what doesn't for various folks who remain
anonymous. Her doctoral dissertation was on a significant aspect of
substance abuse, and she has written other papers that also have been
published. She consults with NiMH professionals on substance abuse topics.

Additionally, I've read "the lit" that comes to the house (professional
papers and journals) and I know thought my union work a lot of
construction workers in many trades who at some point in their careers
suffered severe injuries, were prescribed heavy duty meds, got hooked,
and then got clean and stayed clean.

As a result, I wouldn't make the sweeping statements you make about
substance abusers, or that, as you implied, a large number of those who
disdain the 12 step programs because of their religious-osity just do so
so they can remain outside of a therapeutic or support service.

Do you mean the bricklayer's union rep?

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

In article ,
says...

On 8/29/13 8:15 PM, JustWaitAFrekinMinute wrote:
On 8/29/2013 5:09 PM, BAR wrote:
In article ,
says...

On 8/29/13 3:55 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 15:16:40 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 8/29/13 3:11 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 13:23:31 -0400, "F.O.A.D."
wrote:

On 8/29/13 1:12 PM, wrote:

I believe that is because of the support component that Harry
dismisses in such a cavalier way.

I don't dismiss support programs for substance abusers. Once again,
apparently, you cannot comprehend what you read. What I did say
is that
the religious-osity, as it were, of 12-step programs, is
offputting to a
substantial percentage of substance abusers. There is significant
published criticism for various reasons of 12-step programs.


The hard choices an addict needs to make is the main thing that puts
them off. They just use "religious-osity" as one more excuse.


Gee, I'm glad you have so much experience dealing with the huge
variety
of substance abusers and therefore feel qualified to state that those
who disdain the 12 steps approach because of religious reasons do
so as
an excuse. Obviously, whatever your profession was, you chose
poorly...since you could have been a first-rate therapist.


What is your experience?


I'm married to a first-rate psychotherapist who has seen and
successfully treated a great number of substance abusers in several
settings over her two decades as a licensed practitioner. She sometimes
talks about what works and what doesn't for various folks who remain
anonymous. Her doctoral dissertation was on a significant aspect of
substance abuse, and she has written other papers that also have been
published. She consults with NiMH professionals on substance abuse
topics.

Additionally, I've read "the lit" that comes to the house (professional
papers and journals) and I know thought my union work a lot of
construction workers in many trades who at some point in their careers
suffered severe injuries, were prescribed heavy duty meds, got hooked,
and then got clean and stayed clean.

As a result, I wouldn't make the sweeping statements you make about
substance abusers, or that, as you implied, a large number of those who
disdain the 12 step programs because of their religious-osity just do so
so they can remain outside of a therapeutic or support service.

Meaning you have no first hand experience.

My wife is a battery expert, she can build them, analyze them and tell
you why they are not
performing well. I am just a battery user.


And then you have to ask yourself if you believe any of what harry
says... Nobody here does, well nobody who thinks for themselves.


Ahh, the crazy man re-emerges. How's your blood med level? Lunacy under
control for the moment?

Until his jawbone gets out of whack!

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

On 8/30/13 9:09 AM, iBoaterer wrote:
In article ,
says...

On 8/29/13 3:55 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 15:16:40 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 8/29/13 3:11 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 13:23:31 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 8/29/13 1:12 PM, wrote:

I believe that is because of the support component that Harry
dismisses in such a cavalier way.

I don't dismiss support programs for substance abusers. Once again,
apparently, you cannot comprehend what you read. What I did say is that
the religious-osity, as it were, of 12-step programs, is offputting to a
substantial percentage of substance abusers. There is significant
published criticism for various reasons of 12-step programs.


The hard choices an addict needs to make is the main thing that puts
them off. They just use "religious-osity" as one more excuse.


Gee, I'm glad you have so much experience dealing with the huge variety
of substance abusers and therefore feel qualified to state that those
who disdain the 12 steps approach because of religious reasons do so as
an excuse. Obviously, whatever your profession was, you chose
poorly...since you could have been a first-rate therapist.


What is your experience?


I'm married to a first-rate psychotherapist who has seen and
successfully treated a great number of substance abusers in several
settings over her two decades as a licensed practitioner. She sometimes
talks about what works and what doesn't for various folks who remain
anonymous. Her doctoral dissertation was on a significant aspect of
substance abuse, and she has written other papers that also have been
published. She consults with NiMH professionals on substance abuse topics.

Additionally, I've read "the lit" that comes to the house (professional
papers and journals) and I know thought my union work a lot of
construction workers in many trades who at some point in their careers
suffered severe injuries, were prescribed heavy duty meds, got hooked,
and then got clean and stayed clean.

As a result, I wouldn't make the sweeping statements you make about
substance abusers, or that, as you implied, a large number of those who
disdain the 12 step programs because of their religious-osity just do so
so they can remain outside of a therapeutic or support service.

Do you mean the bricklayer's union rep?

You just can't help yourself, eh?

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

In article ,
says...

On 8/30/13 9:09 AM, iBoaterer wrote:
In article ,
says...

On 8/29/13 3:55 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 15:16:40 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 8/29/13 3:11 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 13:23:31 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 8/29/13 1:12 PM, wrote:

I believe that is because of the support component that Harry
dismisses in such a cavalier way.

I don't dismiss support programs for substance abusers. Once again,
apparently, you cannot comprehend what you read. What I did say is that
the religious-osity, as it were, of 12-step programs, is offputting to a
substantial percentage of substance abusers. There is significant
published criticism for various reasons of 12-step programs.


The hard choices an addict needs to make is the main thing that puts
them off. They just use "religious-osity" as one more excuse.


Gee, I'm glad you have so much experience dealing with the huge variety
of substance abusers and therefore feel qualified to state that those
who disdain the 12 steps approach because of religious reasons do so as
an excuse. Obviously, whatever your profession was, you chose
poorly...since you could have been a first-rate therapist.


What is your experience?


I'm married to a first-rate psychotherapist who has seen and
successfully treated a great number of substance abusers in several
settings over her two decades as a licensed practitioner. She sometimes
talks about what works and what doesn't for various folks who remain
anonymous. Her doctoral dissertation was on a significant aspect of
substance abuse, and she has written other papers that also have been
published. She consults with NiMH professionals on substance abuse topics.

Additionally, I've read "the lit" that comes to the house (professional
papers and journals) and I know thought my union work a lot of
construction workers in many trades who at some point in their careers
suffered severe injuries, were prescribed heavy duty meds, got hooked,
and then got clean and stayed clean.

As a result, I wouldn't make the sweeping statements you make about
substance abusers, or that, as you implied, a large number of those who
disdain the 12 step programs because of their religious-osity just do so
so they can remain outside of a therapeutic or support service.

Do you mean the bricklayer's union rep?

You just can't help yourself, eh?

No, I really can't help but think about the truth.

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 09:07:16 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 14:42:15 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 09:44:00 -0400, iBoaterer
wrote:

In article ,
says...

The interesting thing is that the 12 step programs have a higher "success" rate than the
institutional or non 12 step programs. I know several people who have been in 12 step
programs and they have been sober for 15 and 20 years. They were never institutionalized,
they never received "professional" help with their addiction. People have to want to change
and forceing them to change or trying to modify their behavior isn't going to succeed.

Cite?

It is going to be hard. I looked at this for about 4 hours last night.
I can find hundreds of articles saying THEIR program works "X"% of the
time (with questionable stats) but it is very hard to find any actual
studies that track the people in a verifiable case study.
Places like CDC and NIH where you would expect this to happen don't
seem to be doing it. The studies where they are actually looking at
particular therapies seen to show pretty dismal results and the
longest term study I saw was that methadone deal. They tried to polish
that turd but the numbers expose the truth. Over half the patients
were using illegal drugs 18 months in, while still in therapy.

12 step, particularly AA, does seem to work as long as the person
stays in the program but a lot of people simply walk away and they
still may fall off the wagon occasionally. The question is whether
they try to get back on.

I have been to a few meetings as a visitor and it is an interesting
process. There is a certain religious component but it is far from the
main driver of the program. They are really trying to say this is YOUR
problem and YOU have to fix it. Then they give you some tools.
They don't seem to care which god you want to use if that is the tool
you decide on.
I think the sponsor relationship might be the best tool.



Some of the biggest AA meetings, believe it or not, happen in prison.
People there are remorseful, and also they get coffee and cigarettes!
So, they go, until they get out, then it's same old same old.

Cite? Or personal experience?

John (Gun Nut) H.

http://tinyurl.com/pxgo9s2
http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-26_AAinCF.pdf
http://tinyurl.com/oqxat2d
http://silkworth.net/bobp/chapter14.html

And yes, personal experience. I relative that I've dealt with on their
attempts at recovery did prison time. Do you have a problem with that,
asshole?

Your cites say nothing of 'same old same old' when they get out.

Did you bother to read them?

Does the name-calling boost your ego?

John (Gun Nut) H.
--

Hope you're having a great day!

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 22:08:57 -0400, BAR wrote:

In article , says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 19:18:57 -0400, John H
wrote:


At some point in the pain pill taking process, the taker knows he's taking the pills for something
other than pain relief. At that point the taker makes a decision to cut down or continue. Yeah, it
can be hard.

John (Gun Nut) H.

Pain management for a one shot procedure should be like a prednisone
pack.
A tapered dose that runs out in a few days.

They both end up making you fatter.

That's why God invented golf. Or was it just Scots he invented. I don't know. I do know if I hadn't
shot an 8 on number 18 at Forest Greens today I'd have been in the 80's, which would have pleased me
bunches!

John (Gun Nut) H.
--

Hope you're having a great day!

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 09:08:23 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 14:43:09 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 8/29/13 2:35 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 21:31:08 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:



"Tim" wrote in message
...

On Wednesday, August 28, 2013 11:12:24 AM UTC-5, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 8/28/13 11:22 AM, wrote:

The religious underpinnings and overlay of 12-step programs are
off-putting for many addicts. A lot of people simply don't want
religion
shoved down their throats.


There's a lot of substance/alcohol abusers who while in the `12-step'
programs , follow the religious overtones closely.

---------------------

Last year when I was involved with a family member's rehab and first
steps with recovery I got a copy of the "Big Book" to read what the
12 step thing was all about. I had never heard of the "Big Book" and
had only heard about the "12 step program" in the form of jokes. I
had no clue what they actually were. Pretty naïve I guess for a guy
my age.

I confess that I didn't read the Big Book cover to cover, but I read
enough to get the history, ideas and concepts. I didn't think it
overly pushes religion at all, and certainly doesn't push any
particular theology. I got the it really doesn't care what you
believe in as long as you acknowledge that there are bigger things in
the universe than yourselves.

I was also fortunate to have several people who I had met (mostly
through the guitar shop) who confided their status as recovering
addicts to me. Prior to that I had no idea. They helped me and my
wife deal with my family member's addiction and explained their
respective adaptations of and implementation of the 12 step program as
it applied to them . Some took it more literally than others, but
it seemed to benefit them all.

I certainly don't think it "shoves" religion down anyone's throats.


AA pushes the concept of a 'higher power', which may be different for different folks. The higher
power may be God, for those who believe, or it may be peer pressure from the group, or maybe just a
'big brother'.

One thing is for sure, the success of AA groups does not put a lot of money into the pockets of
psychologists. However, many hospitals for those needing psychological treatment also have an AA
group on the premises. (That is also true for many military hospitals.)

John (Gun Nut) H.

Okay, Bill W.


I wonder if Herring still attends AA meetings.

Whether I did, do, or will - what business is it of yours?

John (Gun Nut) H.

This from the asshole who, when I stated that AA was big in prison
wanted to know if it was "personal experience".....

No. I wanted to know if the 'same old, same old' comment was from personal experience.

But, you may say what you wish.

Does the name-calling help your ego?

John (Gun Nut) H.
--

Hope you're having a great day!

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

In article ,
says...

On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 09:07:16 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 14:42:15 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 09:44:00 -0400, iBoaterer
wrote:

In article ,
says...

The interesting thing is that the 12 step programs have a higher "success" rate than the
institutional or non 12 step programs. I know several people who have been in 12 step
programs and they have been sober for 15 and 20 years. They were never institutionalized,
they never received "professional" help with their addiction. People have to want to change
and forceing them to change or trying to modify their behavior isn't going to succeed.

Cite?

It is going to be hard. I looked at this for about 4 hours last night.
I can find hundreds of articles saying THEIR program works "X"% of the
time (with questionable stats) but it is very hard to find any actual
studies that track the people in a verifiable case study.
Places like CDC and NIH where you would expect this to happen don't
seem to be doing it. The studies where they are actually looking at
particular therapies seen to show pretty dismal results and the
longest term study I saw was that methadone deal. They tried to polish
that turd but the numbers expose the truth. Over half the patients
were using illegal drugs 18 months in, while still in therapy.

12 step, particularly AA, does seem to work as long as the person
stays in the program but a lot of people simply walk away and they
still may fall off the wagon occasionally. The question is whether
they try to get back on.

I have been to a few meetings as a visitor and it is an interesting
process. There is a certain religious component but it is far from the
main driver of the program. They are really trying to say this is YOUR
problem and YOU have to fix it. Then they give you some tools.
They don't seem to care which god you want to use if that is the tool
you decide on.
I think the sponsor relationship might be the best tool.



Some of the biggest AA meetings, believe it or not, happen in prison.
People there are remorseful, and also they get coffee and cigarettes!
So, they go, until they get out, then it's same old same old.

Cite? Or personal experience?

John (Gun Nut) H.

http://tinyurl.com/pxgo9s2
http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-26_AAinCF.pdf
http://tinyurl.com/oqxat2d
http://silkworth.net/bobp/chapter14.html

And yes, personal experience. I relative that I've dealt with on their
attempts at recovery did prison time. Do you have a problem with that,
asshole?

Your cites say nothing of 'same old same old' when they get out.

Did you bother to read them?

Does the name-calling boost your ego?

John (Gun Nut) H.

No, name calling doesn't "boost my ego", it states just exactly what you
are. You know damned good at well that your ****ty question about
"personal experience" was a jab, and the truth is, yes, I have personal
experience, and it wasn't pleasant.

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 22:08:57 -0400, BAR wrote:

In article , says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 19:18:57 -0400, John H
wrote:


At some point in the pain pill taking process, the taker knows he's taking the pills for something
other than pain relief. At that point the taker makes a decision to cut down or continue. Yeah, it
can be hard.

John (Gun Nut) H.

Pain management for a one shot procedure should be like a prednisone
pack.
A tapered dose that runs out in a few days.

They both end up making you fatter.

That's why God invented golf.

Cite?

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

In article ,
says...

On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 09:08:23 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 14:43:09 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 8/29/13 2:35 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 21:31:08 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:



"Tim" wrote in message
...

On Wednesday, August 28, 2013 11:12:24 AM UTC-5, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 8/28/13 11:22 AM, wrote:

The religious underpinnings and overlay of 12-step programs are
off-putting for many addicts. A lot of people simply don't want
religion
shoved down their throats.


There's a lot of substance/alcohol abusers who while in the `12-step'
programs , follow the religious overtones closely.

---------------------

Last year when I was involved with a family member's rehab and first
steps with recovery I got a copy of the "Big Book" to read what the
12 step thing was all about. I had never heard of the "Big Book" and
had only heard about the "12 step program" in the form of jokes. I
had no clue what they actually were. Pretty naïve I guess for a guy
my age.

I confess that I didn't read the Big Book cover to cover, but I read
enough to get the history, ideas and concepts. I didn't think it
overly pushes religion at all, and certainly doesn't push any
particular theology. I got the it really doesn't care what you
believe in as long as you acknowledge that there are bigger things in
the universe than yourselves.

I was also fortunate to have several people who I had met (mostly
through the guitar shop) who confided their status as recovering
addicts to me. Prior to that I had no idea. They helped me and my
wife deal with my family member's addiction and explained their
respective adaptations of and implementation of the 12 step program as
it applied to them . Some took it more literally than others, but
it seemed to benefit them all.

I certainly don't think it "shoves" religion down anyone's throats.


AA pushes the concept of a 'higher power', which may be different for different folks. The higher
power may be God, for those who believe, or it may be peer pressure from the group, or maybe just a
'big brother'.

One thing is for sure, the success of AA groups does not put a lot of money into the pockets of
psychologists. However, many hospitals for those needing psychological treatment also have an AA
group on the premises. (That is also true for many military hospitals.)

John (Gun Nut) H.

Okay, Bill W.


I wonder if Herring still attends AA meetings.

Whether I did, do, or will - what business is it of yours?

John (Gun Nut) H.

This from the asshole who, when I stated that AA was big in prison
wanted to know if it was "personal experience".....

No. I wanted to know if the 'same old, same old' comment was from personal experience.

But, you may say what you wish.

Does the name-calling help your ego?

John (Gun Nut) H.

Again, name calling does nothing for my ego, although knowing that you
are an asshole helps me steer clear of one more asshole.

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 15:17:02 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 09:07:16 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 14:42:15 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 09:44:00 -0400, iBoaterer
wrote:

In article ,
says...

The interesting thing is that the 12 step programs have a higher "success" rate than the
institutional or non 12 step programs. I know several people who have been in 12 step
programs and they have been sober for 15 and 20 years. They were never institutionalized,
they never received "professional" help with their addiction. People have to want to change
and forceing them to change or trying to modify their behavior isn't going to succeed.

Cite?

It is going to be hard. I looked at this for about 4 hours last night.
I can find hundreds of articles saying THEIR program works "X"% of the
time (with questionable stats) but it is very hard to find any actual
studies that track the people in a verifiable case study.
Places like CDC and NIH where you would expect this to happen don't
seem to be doing it. The studies where they are actually looking at
particular therapies seen to show pretty dismal results and the
longest term study I saw was that methadone deal. They tried to polish
that turd but the numbers expose the truth. Over half the patients
were using illegal drugs 18 months in, while still in therapy.

12 step, particularly AA, does seem to work as long as the person
stays in the program but a lot of people simply walk away and they
still may fall off the wagon occasionally. The question is whether
they try to get back on.

I have been to a few meetings as a visitor and it is an interesting
process. There is a certain religious component but it is far from the
main driver of the program. They are really trying to say this is YOUR
problem and YOU have to fix it. Then they give you some tools.
They don't seem to care which god you want to use if that is the tool
you decide on.
I think the sponsor relationship might be the best tool.



Some of the biggest AA meetings, believe it or not, happen in prison.
People there are remorseful, and also they get coffee and cigarettes!
So, they go, until they get out, then it's same old same old.

Cite? Or personal experience?

John (Gun Nut) H.

http://tinyurl.com/pxgo9s2
http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-26_AAinCF.pdf
http://tinyurl.com/oqxat2d
http://silkworth.net/bobp/chapter14.html

And yes, personal experience. I relative that I've dealt with on their
attempts at recovery did prison time. Do you have a problem with that,
asshole?

Your cites say nothing of 'same old same old' when they get out.

Did you bother to read them?

Does the name-calling boost your ego?

John (Gun Nut) H.

No, name calling doesn't "boost my ego", it states just exactly what you
are. You know damned good at well that your ****ty question about
"personal experience" was a jab, and the truth is, yes, I have personal
experience, and it wasn't pleasant.

Your cites say nothing of 'same old same old' when they get out.

Did you bother to read them?


John (Gun Nut) H.
--

Hope you're having a great day!

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 15:17:45 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 22:08:57 -0400, BAR wrote:

In article , says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 19:18:57 -0400, John H
wrote:


At some point in the pain pill taking process, the taker knows he's taking the pills for something
other than pain relief. At that point the taker makes a decision to cut down or continue. Yeah, it
can be hard.

John (Gun Nut) H.

Pain management for a one shot procedure should be like a prednisone
pack.
A tapered dose that runs out in a few days.

They both end up making you fatter.

That's why God invented golf.

Cite?

http://rlv.zcache.com/god_created_golf_post_cards-r1bb1de24843a4377ae211a3afa0dd046_vgbaq_8byvr_512. jpg

John (Gun Nut) H.
--

Hope you're having a great day!

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

On 8/30/2013 2:58 PM, John H wrote:
On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 09:07:16 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 14:42:15 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 09:44:00 -0400, iBoaterer
wrote:

In article ,
says...

The interesting thing is that the 12 step programs have a higher "success" rate than the
institutional or non 12 step programs. I know several people who have been in 12 step
programs and they have been sober for 15 and 20 years. They were never institutionalized,
they never received "professional" help with their addiction. People have to want to change
and forceing them to change or trying to modify their behavior isn't going to succeed.

Cite?

It is going to be hard. I looked at this for about 4 hours last night.
I can find hundreds of articles saying THEIR program works "X"% of the
time (with questionable stats) but it is very hard to find any actual
studies that track the people in a verifiable case study.
Places like CDC and NIH where you would expect this to happen don't
seem to be doing it. The studies where they are actually looking at
particular therapies seen to show pretty dismal results and the
longest term study I saw was that methadone deal. They tried to polish
that turd but the numbers expose the truth. Over half the patients
were using illegal drugs 18 months in, while still in therapy.

12 step, particularly AA, does seem to work as long as the person
stays in the program but a lot of people simply walk away and they
still may fall off the wagon occasionally. The question is whether
they try to get back on.

I have been to a few meetings as a visitor and it is an interesting
process. There is a certain religious component but it is far from the
main driver of the program. They are really trying to say this is YOUR
problem and YOU have to fix it. Then they give you some tools.
They don't seem to care which god you want to use if that is the tool
you decide on.
I think the sponsor relationship might be the best tool.



Some of the biggest AA meetings, believe it or not, happen in prison.
People there are remorseful, and also they get coffee and cigarettes!
So, they go, until they get out, then it's same old same old.

Cite? Or personal experience?

John (Gun Nut) H.

http://tinyurl.com/pxgo9s2
http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-26_AAinCF.pdf
http://tinyurl.com/oqxat2d
http://silkworth.net/bobp/chapter14.html

And yes, personal experience. I relative that I've dealt with on their
attempts at recovery did prison time. Do you have a problem with that,
asshole?

Your cites say nothing of 'same old same old' when they get out.

Did you bother to read them?

Does the name-calling boost your ego?

John (Gun Nut) H.


Hummmm.. I wonder if his "relative" was in prison at the same time kevin
dissappeared for what, 18 mos here with a mystery disease? ...

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

In article ,
says...

On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 15:17:45 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 22:08:57 -0400, BAR wrote:

In article , says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 19:18:57 -0400, John H
wrote:


At some point in the pain pill taking process, the taker knows he's taking the pills for something
other than pain relief. At that point the taker makes a decision to cut down or continue. Yeah, it
can be hard.

John (Gun Nut) H.

Pain management for a one shot procedure should be like a prednisone
pack.
A tapered dose that runs out in a few days.

They both end up making you fatter.

That's why God invented golf.

Cite?

http://rlv.zcache.com/god_created_golf_post_cards-r1bb1de24843a4377ae211a3afa0dd046_vgbaq_8byvr_512. jpg

John (Gun Nut) H.

Oh, you believe cartoons, huh? That explains a lot.....

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

In article ,
says...

On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 15:17:02 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 09:07:16 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 14:42:15 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 09:44:00 -0400, iBoaterer
wrote:

In article ,
says...

The interesting thing is that the 12 step programs have a higher "success" rate than the
institutional or non 12 step programs. I know several people who have been in 12 step
programs and they have been sober for 15 and 20 years. They were never institutionalized,
they never received "professional" help with their addiction. People have to want to change
and forceing them to change or trying to modify their behavior isn't going to succeed.

Cite?

It is going to be hard. I looked at this for about 4 hours last night.
I can find hundreds of articles saying THEIR program works "X"% of the
time (with questionable stats) but it is very hard to find any actual
studies that track the people in a verifiable case study.
Places like CDC and NIH where you would expect this to happen don't
seem to be doing it. The studies where they are actually looking at
particular therapies seen to show pretty dismal results and the
longest term study I saw was that methadone deal. They tried to polish
that turd but the numbers expose the truth. Over half the patients
were using illegal drugs 18 months in, while still in therapy.

12 step, particularly AA, does seem to work as long as the person
stays in the program but a lot of people simply walk away and they
still may fall off the wagon occasionally. The question is whether
they try to get back on.

I have been to a few meetings as a visitor and it is an interesting
process. There is a certain religious component but it is far from the
main driver of the program. They are really trying to say this is YOUR
problem and YOU have to fix it. Then they give you some tools.
They don't seem to care which god you want to use if that is the tool
you decide on.
I think the sponsor relationship might be the best tool.



Some of the biggest AA meetings, believe it or not, happen in prison.
People there are remorseful, and also they get coffee and cigarettes!
So, they go, until they get out, then it's same old same old.

Cite? Or personal experience?

John (Gun Nut) H.

http://tinyurl.com/pxgo9s2
http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-26_AAinCF.pdf
http://tinyurl.com/oqxat2d
http://silkworth.net/bobp/chapter14.html

And yes, personal experience. I relative that I've dealt with on their
attempts at recovery did prison time. Do you have a problem with that,
asshole?

Your cites say nothing of 'same old same old' when they get out.

Did you bother to read them?

Does the name-calling boost your ego?

John (Gun Nut) H.

No, name calling doesn't "boost my ego", it states just exactly what you
are. You know damned good at well that your ****ty question about
"personal experience" was a jab, and the truth is, yes, I have personal
experience, and it wasn't pleasant.

Your cites say nothing of 'same old same old' when they get out.

Did you bother to read them?


John (Gun Nut) H.

Oh, man, you have to be the most dense person here! Jawbone Scotty, as
insane as he is, can at least sometimes think.

http://tinyurl.com/l7d6fnj
http://www.thirteen.org/closetohome/...l/relapse.html
http://tinyurl.com/lv3fshl

Get it now? Somehow, I doubt it.

Religious Craziness Sends Man Back to Jail
 

In article ,
says...

On 8/30/2013 2:58 PM, John H wrote:
On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 09:07:16 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 14:42:15 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 09:44:00 -0400, iBoaterer
wrote:

In article ,
says...

The interesting thing is that the 12 step programs have a higher "success" rate than the
institutional or non 12 step programs. I know several people who have been in 12 step
programs and they have been sober for 15 and 20 years. They were never institutionalized,
they never received "professional" help with their addiction. People have to want to change
and forceing them to change or trying to modify their behavior isn't going to succeed.

Cite?

It is going to be hard. I looked at this for about 4 hours last night.
I can find hundreds of articles saying THEIR program works "X"% of the
time (with questionable stats) but it is very hard to find any actual
studies that track the people in a verifiable case study.
Places like CDC and NIH where you would expect this to happen don't
seem to be doing it. The studies where they are actually looking at
particular therapies seen to show pretty dismal results and the
longest term study I saw was that methadone deal. They tried to polish
that turd but the numbers expose the truth. Over half the patients
were using illegal drugs 18 months in, while still in therapy.

12 step, particularly AA, does seem to work as long as the person
stays in the program but a lot of people simply walk away and they
still may fall off the wagon occasionally. The question is whether
they try to get back on.

I have been to a few meetings as a visitor and it is an interesting
process. There is a certain religious component but it is far from the
main driver of the program. They are really trying to say this is YOUR
problem and YOU have to fix it. Then they give you some tools.
They don't seem to care which god you want to use if that is the tool
you decide on.
I think the sponsor relationship might be the best tool.



Some of the biggest AA meetings, believe it or not, happen in prison.
People there are remorseful, and also they get coffee and cigarettes!
So, they go, until they get out, then it's same old same old.

Cite? Or personal experience?

John (Gun Nut) H.

http://tinyurl.com/pxgo9s2
http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-26_AAinCF.pdf
http://tinyurl.com/oqxat2d
http://silkworth.net/bobp/chapter14.html

And yes, personal experience. I relative that I've dealt with on their
attempts at recovery did prison time. Do you have a problem with that,
asshole?

Your cites say nothing of 'same old same old' when they get out.

Did you bother to read them?

Does the name-calling boost your ego?

John (Gun Nut) H.


Hummmm.. I wonder if his "relative" was in prison at the same time kevin
dissappeared for what, 18 mos here with a mystery disease? ...

I'm sorry, are you trying to say something? All I read is insane babble
from your jawbone.