On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 09:08:23 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 14:43:09 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 8/29/13 2:35 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 21:31:08 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:



"Tim" wrote in message
...

On Wednesday, August 28, 2013 11:12:24 AM UTC-5, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 8/28/13 11:22 AM, wrote:

The religious underpinnings and overlay of 12-step programs are
off-putting for many addicts. A lot of people simply don't want
religion
shoved down their throats.


There's a lot of substance/alcohol abusers who while in the `12-step'
programs , follow the religious overtones closely.

---------------------

Last year when I was involved with a family member's rehab and first
steps with recovery I got a copy of the "Big Book" to read what the
12 step thing was all about. I had never heard of the "Big Book" and
had only heard about the "12 step program" in the form of jokes. I
had no clue what they actually were. Pretty naïve I guess for a guy
my age.

I confess that I didn't read the Big Book cover to cover, but I read
enough to get the history, ideas and concepts. I didn't think it
overly pushes religion at all, and certainly doesn't push any
particular theology. I got the it really doesn't care what you
believe in as long as you acknowledge that there are bigger things in
the universe than yourselves.

I was also fortunate to have several people who I had met (mostly
through the guitar shop) who confided their status as recovering
addicts to me. Prior to that I had no idea. They helped me and my
wife deal with my family member's addiction and explained their
respective adaptations of and implementation of the 12 step program as
it applied to them . Some took it more literally than others, but
it seemed to benefit them all.

I certainly don't think it "shoves" religion down anyone's throats.


AA pushes the concept of a 'higher power', which may be different for different folks. The higher
power may be God, for those who believe, or it may be peer pressure from the group, or maybe just a
'big brother'.

One thing is for sure, the success of AA groups does not put a lot of money into the pockets of
psychologists. However, many hospitals for those needing psychological treatment also have an AA
group on the premises. (That is also true for many military hospitals.)

John (Gun Nut) H.

Okay, Bill W.


I wonder if Herring still attends AA meetings.

Whether I did, do, or will - what business is it of yours?

John (Gun Nut) H.

This from the asshole who, when I stated that AA was big in prison
wanted to know if it was "personal experience".....

No. I wanted to know if the 'same old, same old' comment was from personal experience.

But, you may say what you wish.

Does the name-calling help your ego?

John (Gun Nut) H.
--

Hope you're having a great day!

In article ,
says...

On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 09:07:16 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 14:42:15 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 09:44:00 -0400, iBoaterer
wrote:

In article ,
says...

The interesting thing is that the 12 step programs have a higher "success" rate than the
institutional or non 12 step programs. I know several people who have been in 12 step
programs and they have been sober for 15 and 20 years. They were never institutionalized,
they never received "professional" help with their addiction. People have to want to change
and forceing them to change or trying to modify their behavior isn't going to succeed.

Cite?

It is going to be hard. I looked at this for about 4 hours last night.
I can find hundreds of articles saying THEIR program works "X"% of the
time (with questionable stats) but it is very hard to find any actual
studies that track the people in a verifiable case study.
Places like CDC and NIH where you would expect this to happen don't
seem to be doing it. The studies where they are actually looking at
particular therapies seen to show pretty dismal results and the
longest term study I saw was that methadone deal. They tried to polish
that turd but the numbers expose the truth. Over half the patients
were using illegal drugs 18 months in, while still in therapy.

12 step, particularly AA, does seem to work as long as the person
stays in the program but a lot of people simply walk away and they
still may fall off the wagon occasionally. The question is whether
they try to get back on.

I have been to a few meetings as a visitor and it is an interesting
process. There is a certain religious component but it is far from the
main driver of the program. They are really trying to say this is YOUR
problem and YOU have to fix it. Then they give you some tools.
They don't seem to care which god you want to use if that is the tool
you decide on.
I think the sponsor relationship might be the best tool.



Some of the biggest AA meetings, believe it or not, happen in prison.
People there are remorseful, and also they get coffee and cigarettes!
So, they go, until they get out, then it's same old same old.

Cite? Or personal experience?

John (Gun Nut) H.

http://tinyurl.com/pxgo9s2
http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-26_AAinCF.pdf
http://tinyurl.com/oqxat2d
http://silkworth.net/bobp/chapter14.html

And yes, personal experience. I relative that I've dealt with on their
attempts at recovery did prison time. Do you have a problem with that,
asshole?

Your cites say nothing of 'same old same old' when they get out.

Did you bother to read them?

Does the name-calling boost your ego?

John (Gun Nut) H.

No, name calling doesn't "boost my ego", it states just exactly what you
are. You know damned good at well that your ****ty question about
"personal experience" was a jab, and the truth is, yes, I have personal
experience, and it wasn't pleasant.

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 22:08:57 -0400, BAR wrote:

In article , says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 19:18:57 -0400, John H
wrote:


At some point in the pain pill taking process, the taker knows he's taking the pills for something
other than pain relief. At that point the taker makes a decision to cut down or continue. Yeah, it
can be hard.

John (Gun Nut) H.

Pain management for a one shot procedure should be like a prednisone
pack.
A tapered dose that runs out in a few days.

They both end up making you fatter.

That's why God invented golf.

Cite?

In article ,
says...

On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 09:08:23 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 14:43:09 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 8/29/13 2:35 PM, iBoaterer wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 21:31:08 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:



"Tim" wrote in message
...

On Wednesday, August 28, 2013 11:12:24 AM UTC-5, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 8/28/13 11:22 AM, wrote:

The religious underpinnings and overlay of 12-step programs are
off-putting for many addicts. A lot of people simply don't want
religion
shoved down their throats.


There's a lot of substance/alcohol abusers who while in the `12-step'
programs , follow the religious overtones closely.

---------------------

Last year when I was involved with a family member's rehab and first
steps with recovery I got a copy of the "Big Book" to read what the
12 step thing was all about. I had never heard of the "Big Book" and
had only heard about the "12 step program" in the form of jokes. I
had no clue what they actually were. Pretty naïve I guess for a guy
my age.

I confess that I didn't read the Big Book cover to cover, but I read
enough to get the history, ideas and concepts. I didn't think it
overly pushes religion at all, and certainly doesn't push any
particular theology. I got the it really doesn't care what you
believe in as long as you acknowledge that there are bigger things in
the universe than yourselves.

I was also fortunate to have several people who I had met (mostly
through the guitar shop) who confided their status as recovering
addicts to me. Prior to that I had no idea. They helped me and my
wife deal with my family member's addiction and explained their
respective adaptations of and implementation of the 12 step program as
it applied to them . Some took it more literally than others, but
it seemed to benefit them all.

I certainly don't think it "shoves" religion down anyone's throats.


AA pushes the concept of a 'higher power', which may be different for different folks. The higher
power may be God, for those who believe, or it may be peer pressure from the group, or maybe just a
'big brother'.

One thing is for sure, the success of AA groups does not put a lot of money into the pockets of
psychologists. However, many hospitals for those needing psychological treatment also have an AA
group on the premises. (That is also true for many military hospitals.)

John (Gun Nut) H.

Okay, Bill W.


I wonder if Herring still attends AA meetings.

Whether I did, do, or will - what business is it of yours?

John (Gun Nut) H.

This from the asshole who, when I stated that AA was big in prison
wanted to know if it was "personal experience".....

No. I wanted to know if the 'same old, same old' comment was from personal experience.

But, you may say what you wish.

Does the name-calling help your ego?

John (Gun Nut) H.

Again, name calling does nothing for my ego, although knowing that you
are an asshole helps me steer clear of one more asshole.

On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 15:17:02 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 09:07:16 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 14:42:15 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 09:44:00 -0400, iBoaterer
wrote:

In article ,
says...

The interesting thing is that the 12 step programs have a higher "success" rate than the
institutional or non 12 step programs. I know several people who have been in 12 step
programs and they have been sober for 15 and 20 years. They were never institutionalized,
they never received "professional" help with their addiction. People have to want to change
and forceing them to change or trying to modify their behavior isn't going to succeed.

Cite?

It is going to be hard. I looked at this for about 4 hours last night.
I can find hundreds of articles saying THEIR program works "X"% of the
time (with questionable stats) but it is very hard to find any actual
studies that track the people in a verifiable case study.
Places like CDC and NIH where you would expect this to happen don't
seem to be doing it. The studies where they are actually looking at
particular therapies seen to show pretty dismal results and the
longest term study I saw was that methadone deal. They tried to polish
that turd but the numbers expose the truth. Over half the patients
were using illegal drugs 18 months in, while still in therapy.

12 step, particularly AA, does seem to work as long as the person
stays in the program but a lot of people simply walk away and they
still may fall off the wagon occasionally. The question is whether
they try to get back on.

I have been to a few meetings as a visitor and it is an interesting
process. There is a certain religious component but it is far from the
main driver of the program. They are really trying to say this is YOUR
problem and YOU have to fix it. Then they give you some tools.
They don't seem to care which god you want to use if that is the tool
you decide on.
I think the sponsor relationship might be the best tool.



Some of the biggest AA meetings, believe it or not, happen in prison.
People there are remorseful, and also they get coffee and cigarettes!
So, they go, until they get out, then it's same old same old.

Cite? Or personal experience?

John (Gun Nut) H.

http://tinyurl.com/pxgo9s2
http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-26_AAinCF.pdf
http://tinyurl.com/oqxat2d
http://silkworth.net/bobp/chapter14.html

And yes, personal experience. I relative that I've dealt with on their
attempts at recovery did prison time. Do you have a problem with that,
asshole?

Your cites say nothing of 'same old same old' when they get out.

Did you bother to read them?

Does the name-calling boost your ego?

John (Gun Nut) H.

No, name calling doesn't "boost my ego", it states just exactly what you
are. You know damned good at well that your ****ty question about
"personal experience" was a jab, and the truth is, yes, I have personal
experience, and it wasn't pleasant.

Your cites say nothing of 'same old same old' when they get out.

Did you bother to read them?


John (Gun Nut) H.
--

Hope you're having a great day!

On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 15:17:45 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 22:08:57 -0400, BAR wrote:

In article , says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 19:18:57 -0400, John H
wrote:


At some point in the pain pill taking process, the taker knows he's taking the pills for something
other than pain relief. At that point the taker makes a decision to cut down or continue. Yeah, it
can be hard.

John (Gun Nut) H.

Pain management for a one shot procedure should be like a prednisone
pack.
A tapered dose that runs out in a few days.

They both end up making you fatter.

That's why God invented golf.

Cite?

http://rlv.zcache.com/god_created_golf_post_cards-r1bb1de24843a4377ae211a3afa0dd046_vgbaq_8byvr_512. jpg

John (Gun Nut) H.
--

Hope you're having a great day!

On 8/30/2013 2:58 PM, John H wrote:
On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 09:07:16 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 14:42:15 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 09:44:00 -0400, iBoaterer
wrote:

In article ,
says...

The interesting thing is that the 12 step programs have a higher "success" rate than the
institutional or non 12 step programs. I know several people who have been in 12 step
programs and they have been sober for 15 and 20 years. They were never institutionalized,
they never received "professional" help with their addiction. People have to want to change
and forceing them to change or trying to modify their behavior isn't going to succeed.

Cite?

It is going to be hard. I looked at this for about 4 hours last night.
I can find hundreds of articles saying THEIR program works "X"% of the
time (with questionable stats) but it is very hard to find any actual
studies that track the people in a verifiable case study.
Places like CDC and NIH where you would expect this to happen don't
seem to be doing it. The studies where they are actually looking at
particular therapies seen to show pretty dismal results and the
longest term study I saw was that methadone deal. They tried to polish
that turd but the numbers expose the truth. Over half the patients
were using illegal drugs 18 months in, while still in therapy.

12 step, particularly AA, does seem to work as long as the person
stays in the program but a lot of people simply walk away and they
still may fall off the wagon occasionally. The question is whether
they try to get back on.

I have been to a few meetings as a visitor and it is an interesting
process. There is a certain religious component but it is far from the
main driver of the program. They are really trying to say this is YOUR
problem and YOU have to fix it. Then they give you some tools.
They don't seem to care which god you want to use if that is the tool
you decide on.
I think the sponsor relationship might be the best tool.



Some of the biggest AA meetings, believe it or not, happen in prison.
People there are remorseful, and also they get coffee and cigarettes!
So, they go, until they get out, then it's same old same old.

Cite? Or personal experience?

John (Gun Nut) H.

http://tinyurl.com/pxgo9s2
http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-26_AAinCF.pdf
http://tinyurl.com/oqxat2d
http://silkworth.net/bobp/chapter14.html

And yes, personal experience. I relative that I've dealt with on their
attempts at recovery did prison time. Do you have a problem with that,
asshole?

Your cites say nothing of 'same old same old' when they get out.

Did you bother to read them?

Does the name-calling boost your ego?

John (Gun Nut) H.


Hummmm.. I wonder if his "relative" was in prison at the same time kevin
dissappeared for what, 18 mos here with a mystery disease? ...

In article ,
says...

On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 15:17:45 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 22:08:57 -0400, BAR wrote:

In article , says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 19:18:57 -0400, John H
wrote:


At some point in the pain pill taking process, the taker knows he's taking the pills for something
other than pain relief. At that point the taker makes a decision to cut down or continue. Yeah, it
can be hard.

John (Gun Nut) H.

Pain management for a one shot procedure should be like a prednisone
pack.
A tapered dose that runs out in a few days.

They both end up making you fatter.

That's why God invented golf.

Cite?

http://rlv.zcache.com/god_created_golf_post_cards-r1bb1de24843a4377ae211a3afa0dd046_vgbaq_8byvr_512. jpg

John (Gun Nut) H.

Oh, you believe cartoons, huh? That explains a lot.....

In article ,
says...

On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 15:17:02 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 09:07:16 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 14:42:15 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 09:44:00 -0400, iBoaterer
wrote:

In article ,
says...

The interesting thing is that the 12 step programs have a higher "success" rate than the
institutional or non 12 step programs. I know several people who have been in 12 step
programs and they have been sober for 15 and 20 years. They were never institutionalized,
they never received "professional" help with their addiction. People have to want to change
and forceing them to change or trying to modify their behavior isn't going to succeed.

Cite?

It is going to be hard. I looked at this for about 4 hours last night.
I can find hundreds of articles saying THEIR program works "X"% of the
time (with questionable stats) but it is very hard to find any actual
studies that track the people in a verifiable case study.
Places like CDC and NIH where you would expect this to happen don't
seem to be doing it. The studies where they are actually looking at
particular therapies seen to show pretty dismal results and the
longest term study I saw was that methadone deal. They tried to polish
that turd but the numbers expose the truth. Over half the patients
were using illegal drugs 18 months in, while still in therapy.

12 step, particularly AA, does seem to work as long as the person
stays in the program but a lot of people simply walk away and they
still may fall off the wagon occasionally. The question is whether
they try to get back on.

I have been to a few meetings as a visitor and it is an interesting
process. There is a certain religious component but it is far from the
main driver of the program. They are really trying to say this is YOUR
problem and YOU have to fix it. Then they give you some tools.
They don't seem to care which god you want to use if that is the tool
you decide on.
I think the sponsor relationship might be the best tool.



Some of the biggest AA meetings, believe it or not, happen in prison.
People there are remorseful, and also they get coffee and cigarettes!
So, they go, until they get out, then it's same old same old.

Cite? Or personal experience?

John (Gun Nut) H.

http://tinyurl.com/pxgo9s2
http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-26_AAinCF.pdf
http://tinyurl.com/oqxat2d
http://silkworth.net/bobp/chapter14.html

And yes, personal experience. I relative that I've dealt with on their
attempts at recovery did prison time. Do you have a problem with that,
asshole?

Your cites say nothing of 'same old same old' when they get out.

Did you bother to read them?

Does the name-calling boost your ego?

John (Gun Nut) H.

No, name calling doesn't "boost my ego", it states just exactly what you
are. You know damned good at well that your ****ty question about
"personal experience" was a jab, and the truth is, yes, I have personal
experience, and it wasn't pleasant.

Your cites say nothing of 'same old same old' when they get out.

Did you bother to read them?


John (Gun Nut) H.

Oh, man, you have to be the most dense person here! Jawbone Scotty, as
insane as he is, can at least sometimes think.

http://tinyurl.com/l7d6fnj
http://www.thirteen.org/closetohome/...l/relapse.html
http://tinyurl.com/lv3fshl

Get it now? Somehow, I doubt it.

In article ,
says...

On 8/30/2013 2:58 PM, John H wrote:
On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 09:07:16 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 14:42:15 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 09:44:00 -0400, iBoaterer
wrote:

In article ,
says...

The interesting thing is that the 12 step programs have a higher "success" rate than the
institutional or non 12 step programs. I know several people who have been in 12 step
programs and they have been sober for 15 and 20 years. They were never institutionalized,
they never received "professional" help with their addiction. People have to want to change
and forceing them to change or trying to modify their behavior isn't going to succeed.

Cite?

It is going to be hard. I looked at this for about 4 hours last night.
I can find hundreds of articles saying THEIR program works "X"% of the
time (with questionable stats) but it is very hard to find any actual
studies that track the people in a verifiable case study.
Places like CDC and NIH where you would expect this to happen don't
seem to be doing it. The studies where they are actually looking at
particular therapies seen to show pretty dismal results and the
longest term study I saw was that methadone deal. They tried to polish
that turd but the numbers expose the truth. Over half the patients
were using illegal drugs 18 months in, while still in therapy.

12 step, particularly AA, does seem to work as long as the person
stays in the program but a lot of people simply walk away and they
still may fall off the wagon occasionally. The question is whether
they try to get back on.

I have been to a few meetings as a visitor and it is an interesting
process. There is a certain religious component but it is far from the
main driver of the program. They are really trying to say this is YOUR
problem and YOU have to fix it. Then they give you some tools.
They don't seem to care which god you want to use if that is the tool
you decide on.
I think the sponsor relationship might be the best tool.



Some of the biggest AA meetings, believe it or not, happen in prison.
People there are remorseful, and also they get coffee and cigarettes!
So, they go, until they get out, then it's same old same old.

Cite? Or personal experience?

John (Gun Nut) H.

http://tinyurl.com/pxgo9s2
http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-26_AAinCF.pdf
http://tinyurl.com/oqxat2d
http://silkworth.net/bobp/chapter14.html

And yes, personal experience. I relative that I've dealt with on their
attempts at recovery did prison time. Do you have a problem with that,
asshole?

Your cites say nothing of 'same old same old' when they get out.

Did you bother to read them?

Does the name-calling boost your ego?

John (Gun Nut) H.


Hummmm.. I wonder if his "relative" was in prison at the same time kevin
dissappeared for what, 18 mos here with a mystery disease? ...

I'm sorry, are you trying to say something? All I read is insane babble
from your jawbone.